How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people

[OttoVann]

Alright so heres the premise of the thread.

 

Lots of people here RP warrior/melee types. Armor that is not light, shield/sword, giant axe, (soon to be giant two-handers), etc.

 

Lots of people here also RP monk/rogue types ala leather armor and fisticuffs/knives but that's not the focus of the thread as much. I don't see anyone in any leather ever surviving a bullet from any caliber gun.

 

So, back to the armor wearers. How do each of you individually look at dealing with firearms? How are you going to interact with them, if at all.

 

I'm going to toss out my quick thoughts on firearms vs plate armor to give an example of what I'm trying to ask. So, for me, any sort of "long-gun" type firearm in this game is going to punch through pretty much any 'normal' heavy armor (breastplate) people are running around with - regardless of what it's made from. With that said, I can see breastplates at least, surviving a hit from a 'handgun' sized firearm - depending on a lot of things - but maybe not. I can also see maybe, RP in the future where armorers look at the firearm dilemma, where "long guns" are blasting through their designs with relative ease and trying reinforcement methods - perhaps changing whole designs to not only shield the body from a sword slash/stab but to resist very sudden and heavy blunt/piercing energy that a bullet would give. Maybe something as simple as riveting on extra strips of metal to the chest, increasing weight, but also giving more material to absorb the bullets energy with.

 

I look to shields and figure, something that looks like the Vintage Kite Shield will stop most anything thats not huge-bore ala .50 or above.

 

Now granted all of what I just said is me applying my knowledge of firearms as reasonably as I can to the understanding of how armor was made in our world that looks like what people in game can wear. I don't say this is the right way, or the best way, or the most anything way - just how I see it, and maybe I'm dead wrong because I don't see me ever roleplaying Otto wearing armor (in the traditional sense) so maybe I am a bit wrong.

 

With all that said, how do people here who run around as a melee type handle guns going forward?

[Lilia Lia]

mostly aimed at the melee people

 

I see what you did there.

 

Anyways with regards to your question, I think of it this way... one of the things that exists in the FFXIV world that doesn't exist in real life is all kinds of alloys that are stronger than their conventional counterparts and used in the creation of specialized weapons and armor.  Darksteel, wolfram, wootz, Ishgardian steel, and so forth.  So while it's tempting to view the armors in the game mindful of historical medieval armors, in the FFXIV universe there are theoretically much stronger metals and alloys that could conceivably withstand gunfire.  Sort of the way polymers can in the real world. 

 

Just a quick thought off the top of my head here.  I agree that it's conceivable that guns will create a lot of unusual RP scenarios for people who RP combat.

[Sounsyy]

No lore backing, but in my own head cannon, I've reasoned that the Ala Mhigan Resistance would have the most specialized/adapted armor to deal with firearms as they've been warring against the Garleans for over 20 years now. I've reasoned that Ala Mhigans would likely have thicker scutum shields that may help deflect or block incoming gunblade rounds. They may also have thicker breastplates?

 

For Sounsyy specifically, I've had a lot of gun involvement in her story fairly recently. She has the modified Ala Mhigan Scutum, which has a better chance at blocking incoming rounds, but I've made it so that if a bullet strikes the shield directly, it'll pierce it. Also long barrel muskets and firearms could easily punch through the shield and armor. This is how Sounsyy recently lost a finger. A marksman shot her shield and the bullet went through her shield, shattered, severed her ring finger, and the fragments of the shot buried into Sounsyy's shoulder.

 

Sounsyy's crew, being mostly old Knights of the Barracuda from Limsa, are also majority musketeers. I've only got one long-barreled musket markswoman in the crew, but the rest use the small pistols. I've reasoned that the musket could probably pierce through most things with relatively good accuracy. While the pistols are more inaccurate and the ball-type ammunition might be blocked/get lodged in Garlean fibre armor, which to me sounds a lot like kevlar?

[Iex]

FFXIV firearms do not seem to share the same punch of modern weapons. Hence WoL surviving several shots in intro, only loosing his hat. The fact the Empire did not steam roll and most of the soldiers still used more common weaponry the seem to lack the overwhelming power that changed warfare in real life. The end of the Armorer quest chain is another example of the power of firearms in FFXIV being different than real world weapons along with materia. That is not to discount their lethality with a skilled user, thanks to the admiral.

 

The game is a fantasy game after all... if you try to apply too much real world realism rather than realism grounded in the game world you are going to run into 'plot holes.' Furthermore, I am sure the 'nature' of FFXIV firearms will be revealed more so with the machinist's quest lines.

[OttoVann]

mostly aimed at the melee people

 

I see what you did there.

 

Anyways with regards to your question, I think of it this way... one of the things that exists in the FFXIV world that doesn't exist in real life is all kinds of alloys that are stronger than their conventional counterparts and used in the creation of specialized weapons and armor.  Darksteel, wolfram, wootz, Ishgardian steel, and so forth.  So while it's tempting to view the armors in the game mindful of historical medieval armors, in the FFXIV universe there are theoretically much stronger metals and alloys that could conceivably withstand gunfire.  Sort of the way polymers can in the real world. 

 

Just a quick thought off the top of my head here.  I agree that it's conceivable that guns will create a lot of unusual RP scenarios for people who RP combat.

 

Im not saying your wrong, but consider this

 

Wolfram = Tungsten.

 

Wootz = steel variant with high carbon

 

Darksteel = see above...most likely. Could be a pure fantasy metal with no real life analogue.

 

Ishgardian steel = steel variant/alloy. Only so much tensile strength can be found in the steel element.

 

Mythril = pure fantasy, who knows how good it is, I've always treated it like aluminum IC.

 

However, with all this said, I completely agree someone like Otto (or other craftsmen such as yourself with metals knowledge) could easily develop alloys that withstand a gunshot, but then how thick would it need to be? Maybe this line of thought is going too far off the rails but armor can only be so heavy before it's unwieldy.

 

Just throwing out thoughts.

[OttoVann]

FFXIV firearms do not seem to share the same punch of modern weapons. Hence WoL surviving several shots in intro, only loosing his hat. The fact the Empire did not steam roll and most of the soldiers still used more common weaponry the seem to lack the overwhelming power that changed warfare in real life. The end of the Armorer quest chain is another example of the power of firearms in FFXIV being different than real world weapons along with materia. That is not to discount their lethality with a skilled user, thanks to the admiral.

 

The game is a fantasy game after all... if you try to apply too much real world realism rather than realism grounded in the game world you are going to run into 'plot holes.' Furthermore, I am sure the 'nature' of FFXIV firearms will be revealed more so with the machinist's quest lines.

 

The admiral was using handguns, which are orders of magnitude weaker than a "long-gun" can and will be. The ARM quest line doesn't add much to me considering she is using a considerably weak firearm that shoots musketballs versus a more modern shaped bullet. Which machinists will be accessing if you give a cursory look at their gear we have seen so far. They will be using guns with modern characteristics, and dramatically more power than what Limsa's leader carries around currently.

[Lilia Lia]

However, with all this said, I completely agree someone like Otto (or other craftsmen such as yourself with metals knowledge) could easily develop alloys that withstand a gunshot, but then how thick would it need to be?  Maybe this line of thought is going too far off the rails but armor can only be so heavy before it's unwieldy.

 

It DOES make for an interesting RP possibility...  Armorers are going to see their armors failing and they are going to start scrambling to come up with ways to create something analogous to the modern bulletproof vest.  As someone who RPs crafting that is a really appealing notion.  It could also line up really well with the fact that the expansion is most likely bringing us new ores and alloys that we can tinker around with.

 

such as yourself

 

Oh hush.  /me

[Sophia_Grave]

Fantasy materials and Aether.

 

Do we know how strong Cobalt is? Or Wolfram? Or the Carbon-whatever that Ironworks gear is made from? Considering what the fauna is capable of doing or resisting, I don't think its a stretch to think that gunfire will have a significantly diminished effect on armor made from those materials. And then there are aether powers, which is another thing altogether.

[OttoVann]

So, Lilia brings up the arms race to make better gear to sustain a bullet, what about bullet design.

 

We used leadcored ammunition today because it expands and deals good damage to tissue. However, using mild or full steel cored ammunition, or wolfram aka tungsten, is not a modern advent, and that stuff blows through modern steel plates meausured in thicknesses of inches. Larger rifles at least. What will you say to rping against ammunition like that

[Kellach Woods]

until I see a monster with a firearm I'm safe.

[LiadansWhisper]

Well, Liadan's a Conjurer, but depending on what ends up coming out with healers, probably just magically shield through it (a la Y'shtola).

[allgivenover]

Firearms have been around a while in Eorzea and Garlemald, yet despite that medieval style arms and armor are still widely used and shown to be effective at staving off a Garlean assault. In reality, Limsa and Garlemald would be the ultimate military powers in the world given their access to firearms.

 

In my own head-canon the only way I can reason why they are not is that aether allows people to put medieval arms and armor to use in a way that they can stand against firearms.

 

I don't expect we'll ever get a straight answer about it, but rule of cool is definitely being put to use here.

[Dat Oni]

Considering that the Ironworks armor is composed of things like carbon fiber...

 

Here we can see some examples of bullets going up against such material; 2/3 shots did not make it through, but looking at the back of the carbon plate, you can see it still made an impact most of the time. 

 

So, if carbon makes up the bulk of the heavy-duty Garlean corps armament, we can assume that, to a degree, they may be bullet-resistant. However, if that represents the top-tier at present, then bullets are incredibly dangerous to the vast majority of the equipment we wear. Anything that isn't Allagan or Garlean has a high probability of just having a hole punched through it by a stray bullet, one not even designed to be armor piercing. 

 

Frankly, with the existence of flintlock prior to the expansion, this is an issue that I think we would of addressed years ago. Funny how that works.

 

In regards to the Grindstone, there's a couple of reactions to the issue at hand, though both banning and not banning guns pose problems.

 

Ban:

You'd need to ban all ranged projectiles in order to justify this to the Machinists, as I have seen uses of throwing knives/axes and arrows, both of which can be just as deadly as a bullet. 

 

No-Ban:

In order to justify the type of weapon, the ammunition would need to be nonlethal. Whatever fits into the rules that isn't bullshit (Full body nets can go right to hell).

 

EDIT: I'd like to point out we have yet to learn the skillsets of Machinists, so we don't really know what kind of gun they use or if they trade out ammunition types. I think we'll have a better understanding once we do.

[allgivenover]

I've reasoned that Ala Mhigans would likely have thicker scutum shields that may help deflect or block incoming gunblade rounds. They may also have thicker breastplates?

 

...

 

 

While the pistols are more inaccurate and the ball-type ammunition might be blocked/get lodged in Garlean fibre armor, which to me sounds a lot like kevlar?

 

Thicker shields and breastplates aren't enough explanation because Garleans don't have just gun blades. They have very modern ballistics, and even "sci-fi" style beam weapons and robots.

 

I don't think we can reason away why the Garleans simply haven't stomped everyone into oblivion without including a magical component that allows a sword or shield to be effective against them.

[Kellach Woods]

Also, notice how the rank and file do not have firearms in game, even in Garlean troops.

[Mae]

Garlean materials.

 

The people who use guns the most are the most likely to have developed materials to stop bullets. If the possibility of being shot at with a gun on a regular basis enters Kara's mind, she'll be mugging Garleans on a regular basis for materials to line her clothes with.

[Caspar]

Don't be where they're aiming.

 

More seriously, I always figure the more blantantly superhuman characters can dodge or catch bullets if paying sufficient attention. This is a problem that can be dealt with better armor, or armor specially designed to deflect bullets or blunt their momentum for lower-powered characters.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Don't be where they're aiming.

 

More seriously, I always figure the more blantantly superhuman characters can dodge or catch bullets if paying sufficient attention. This is a problem that can be dealt with better armor, or armor specially designed to deflect bullets or blunt their momentum for lower-powered characters.

I refer you to this video:

 

Fk3uXwn_OQg

[Dat Oni]

Don't be where they're aiming.

 

More seriously, I always figure the more blantantly superhuman characters can dodge or catch bullets if paying sufficient attention. This is a problem that can be dealt with better armor, or armor specially designed to deflect bullets or blunt their momentum for lower-powered characters.

I refer you to this video:

 

Fk3uXwn_OQg

 

This thread in a nutshell.

 

Sometimes, we need to remind ourselves of the rule-of-cool-biased batshit insanity of this game's setting.

[Gegenji]

One should also note that the ARM capper quest has materia-reinforced Cobalt armor (not Darksteel or anything stronger) holding up against Merlwyb's guns. And even the non-reinforced mail held up for a bit before the guy collapsed.

 

So, one can assume that anything cobalt or stronger can likely work to deflect bullets. And, if not, melding materia into it obviously can, so melding to higher quality material should also work. It likely won't help the light armor wearers, but I would figure if those in heavy armor are wearing melded-Cobalt or better... they should be fine to deal with basic firearms.

[Caspar]

One should also note that the ARM capper quest has materia-reinforced Cobalt armor (not Darksteel or anything stronger) holding up against Merlwyb's guns. And even the non-reinforced mail held up for a bit before the guy collapsed.

 

So, one can assume that anything cobalt or stronger can likely work to deflect bullets. And, if not, melding materia into it obviously can, so melding to higher quality material should also work. It likely won't help the light armor wearers, but I would figure if those in heavy armor are wearing melded-Cobalt or better... they should be fine to deal with basic firearms.

Yeah, and it was chainmail too which classically I think wasn't super great against ball ammo? Not certain. If even their chainmail can block bullets and not be pierced, driving small bits of chain into the wound, as it would be at some points of history irl, then I'd say making bulletproof armor is pretty possible. It must be, since the Garleans still wear armor; if they had rendered it obsolete from the use of gunblades, they would have stopped wearing it entirely and just kept Eorzeans at a distance so that melee combat is never an issue.

[Verad]

I've been supplying low-quality materials to firearms manufacturers for years. With the rise of the MCH class people are starting to catch on, but it will take years more before guns that can't penetrate cardboard are entirely cleared out of the market.

 

It is only through these efforts that we are not a Garlean province. You're welcome, Eorzea.

 

Also something something anime, low fantasy isn't the standard, when will somebody make an MMO that caters to that already?

[OttoVann]

I don't think comparing flintlock pistols to what machinists will be getting and saying cobalt wins out is a good argument based off of the ARM quest. If a recall it was a chain piece as well.

 

I guess I'm looking at this from a crafters standpoint and not an adventurers standpoint

[Coatleque]

As a Paladin, Coatleque practices her barriers along with her sword skills. No, it won't stop a targeted onslaught, but I figure the common "protect" spell is enough to stop one or two before it collapses. I think of it like a 'mass effect' field (if you've played that game), only it can be recast at will so long as the caster can keep focus and has enough aether.

[Flashhelix]

Mostly what's already been said, if firearms weren't able to be fought via:

• aether fuckery
  
• sufficiently durable armor
  
• or straight-up being able to swat bullets out of the air because we live in bullshit anime world
  

then I don't think there'd be anything stopping Garlemald from just running roughshod over Eorzea. In a lot of ways, Eorzean magic could be seen as a counter or equivalent to Garlemald's firearms, but there has to be some reason why people bother taking swordsmen/pikemen/whatever into battle instead of just a bunch of mages.

 

That being said I can predict many OOC bitchfights centered around "BULLSHIT YOU CAN'T DO THAT TO MY BULLETS" "YEAH I CAN" :cactuar::cactuar::cactuar: