FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE

[Warren Castille]

FF7 is a lot like Kingdom Hearts. There's the Main Series (KH, KH2, KH3 compared to... FF7) and then there's the metric fuckton of super-JRPG JRPGs that were added to "enhance" the world (Every handheld KH, all of the extra FF7 games).

 

I'm of the opinion of that isn't broke doesn't need fixing. I can safely ignore all of the extra stuff and be satisfied. Sephiroth found out he was an inhuman clone, and that the people he worked for (and killed for) destroyed his species. That's enough for me. If some idiot with a dumb name wants a self-insert with a dumber name to suddenly be the catalyst, that's fine. I'm not playing it, and I'm ignoring it in the context of the original game.

 

If this is an all-encompassing FF7 remake that alludes to all of CC and Dirge and AC as canon, then... Well, I guess I'll play it anyway, but I feel like explaining all of the extra stuff cheapens the original journey.

[TheLastCandle]

I'm not sure whether or not they'll include the Genesis stuff in the remake, simply because according to some sources the main reason why Crisis Core has yet to be put on PSN is due to the nature of the contractual stuff with Gackt and Genesis. Granted, it's something they could resolve by renewing said contract and releasing a Crisis Core HD Remaster. But I really hope they leave the original game's story untouched aside from possibly updating the localization.

[Warren Castille]

Remember: The entire fate of the actual world of FF7 hinges upon a side character you can miss entirely.

 

Fuck Dirge so much.

[Aaron]

The pop star didn't tell SE "Make my character make SEPHIROTH go mad" if anything all he did was help design his personality. And SE wounded up working that into said plot themselves.

 

"I went to eat with him one time and described the Final Fantasy VII universe in rich detail. And it turned into this process of collaboration, creating the character together. Then we went to the studio and recorded the Japanese voice with all that in mind. So he really was a creative partner in all of this. And we really wanted the connection between Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core." - Hideki Imaizumi, the producer of Crisis Core.

 

"Imaizumi and Gackt came up with Genesis's design, describing everything from his attitude to his clothes" according to the wiki page. Again, it's not damning evidence that he had a part to play in Genesis' ultimate role - but I don't think it was wholly SE's idea either to suddenly have Gackt's insert character so crucial to the plot of the original game. It was all Imaizumi, who - to my eyes - basically added Genesis in as a blatant example of a Mary Sue character.

"Everything from his attitude to his clothes"

 

Plot points don't fit into that variety of details. 

 

I can design a character from scratch but that doesn't mean I get to dictate what part he plays in the game

[Aaron]

FF7 is a lot like Kingdom Hearts. There's the Main Series (KH, KH2, KH3 compared to... FF7) and then there's the metric fuckton of super-JRPG JRPGs that were added to "enhance" the world (Every handheld KH, all of the extra FF7 games).

 

I'm of the opinion of that isn't broke doesn't need fixing. I can safely ignore all of the extra stuff and be satisfied. Sephiroth found out he was an inhuman clone, and that the people he worked for (and killed for) destroyed his species. That's enough for me. If some idiot with a dumb name wants a self-insert with a dumber name to suddenly be the catalyst, that's fine. I'm not playing it, and I'm ignoring it in the context of the original game.

 

If this is an all-encompassing FF7 remake that alludes to all of CC and Dirge and AC as canon, then... Well, I guess I'll play it anyway, but I feel like explaining all of the extra stuff cheapens the original journey.

The point im trying to get through to people is.

 

Genesis did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about him just because he was inspired by Gackt? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Genesis hate seems really stupid to me.

 

Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of FF VII, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?

 

You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.

 

Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.

[Warren Castille]

The point im trying to get through to people is.

 

The prequels did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about hating hem just because they was written by Lucas? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Prequels hate seems really stupid to me.

 

Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of IV-VI, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?

 

You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.

 

Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.

 

 

People are passionate about the things they enjoyed the first time. Adding things that can greatly detract from the original intention will rile people. You're telling me that Sephiroth is completely excused from his response because Master Drive fucked with his brain. That cheapens the original "hero learns of his twisted past, is forever changed by it" story that was being told. Sephiroth goes from insane, unrepentant victim of circumstance with reprehensible (but maybe even relatable) recourse and instead becomes "lol popstar did it."

[TheLastCandle]

FF7 is a lot like Kingdom Hearts. There's the Main Series (KH, KH2, KH3 compared to... FF7) and then there's the metric fuckton of super-JRPG JRPGs that were added to "enhance" the world (Every handheld KH, all of the extra FF7 games).

 

I'm of the opinion of that isn't broke doesn't need fixing. I can safely ignore all of the extra stuff and be satisfied. Sephiroth found out he was an inhuman clone, and that the people he worked for (and killed for) destroyed his species. That's enough for me. If some idiot with a dumb name wants a self-insert with a dumber name to suddenly be the catalyst, that's fine. I'm not playing it, and I'm ignoring it in the context of the original game.

 

If this is an all-encompassing FF7 remake that alludes to all of CC and Dirge and AC as canon, then... Well, I guess I'll play it anyway, but I feel like explaining all of the extra stuff cheapens the original journey.

The point im trying to get through to people is.

 

Genesis did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about him just because he was inspired by Gackt? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Genesis hate seems really stupid to me.

 

Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of FF VII, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?

 

You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.

 

Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.

 

I am hereby coining the term "Gacktose intolerant" to describe all persons who choose not to acknowledge Genesis as part of the overall FF7 mythos.

[Telluride]

The point im trying to get through to people is.

 

The prequels did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about hating hem just because they was written by Lucas? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Prequels hate seems really stupid to me.

 

Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of IV-VI, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?

 

You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.

 

Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.

 

 

People are passionate about the things they enjoyed the first time. Adding things that can greatly detract from the original intention will rile people. You're telling me that Sephiroth is completely excused from his response because Master Drive fucked with his brain. That cheapens the original "hero learns of his twisted past, is forever changed by it" story that was being told. Sephiroth goes from insane, unrepentant victim of circumstance with reprehensible (but maybe even relatable) recourse and instead becomes "lol popstar did it."

 

See also...

 

 

 

 

 

VS

 

 

 

AND

 

 

VS

 

 

 

 

[Griffith!]

Me, I didn't like Genesis because he makes Sephiroth less important as a character. Sephiroth isn't the mastermind - he's a side effect of the real, hidden mastermind's plot. FFVII is just cleaning up the mess left over from Crisis Core, all started by this seemingly random character that was apparently important enough to inform every other central character's actions but not important enough that anyone ever mentioned him outside the game in which he appeared.

 

The franchise worked better without Genesis because Sephiroth didn't need extra motivation - literally nobody was questioning his motives before CC. All Genesis does, as a character, is steal Sephi's agency as a villain and give Zack another rival to measure himself against.

 

But I'm not putting the effort in to break down or evaluate the character, if only because that would mean replaying the game. I just don't have that kind of time.

 

Or, y'know, caring.

[Aaron]

The point im trying to get through to people is.

 

The prequel did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about hating hem just because they was written by Lucas? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Prequels hate seems really stupid to me.

 

Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of IV-VI, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?

 

You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.

 

Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.

 

 

People are passionate about the things they enjoyed the first time. Adding things that can greatly detract from the original intention will rile people. You're telling me that Sephiroth is completely excused from his response because Master Drive fucked with his brain. That cheapens the original "hero learns of his twisted past, is forever changed by it" story that was being told. Sephiroth goes from insane, unrepentant victim of circumstance with reprehensible (but maybe even relatable) recourse and instead becomes "lol popstar did it."

The end result was the same regardless though?

 

Sephiroth goes mad after his BEST FRIEND (NOT POPSTAR) Suddenly decides in his mind "Why should i live in your shadow when i know the secrets to break you like a glass mirror?"

 

Were not supposed to be looking at it from a "Lolpopstar ripoff" but from a "Wow, the dudes best friend really just fucked him over like that, i feel bad that he drove him into chaos like that. Poor Sephiroth, Zack, and Cloud.

 

Genesis was Sephiroths friend and a pivotal character first and a popstar influence second.

 

People just want to find any and every reason to hate him like no other character was made from the same or similar influences. Sephiroths circumstances could actually have made it even MORE relatable.

 

"A human created me, a monster created by the humans influenced me, this world deserves mother. I shall utterly cleanse all the lies and deceit."

 

Over

 

"Im evil because I read some notes for no real reason other than a hunch"

[Dravus]

This thread made me realise just how similar Genesis and Thrall are to each other and their respective creators.

[Aaron]

Me, I didn't like Genesis because he makes Sephiroth less important as a character. Sephiroth isn't the mastermind - he's a side effect of the real, hidden mastermind's plot. FFVII is just cleaning up the mess left over from Crisis Core, all started by this seemingly random character that was apparently important enough to inform every other central character's actions but not important enough that anyone ever mentioned him outside the game in which he appeared.

 

The franchise worked better without Genesis because Sephiroth didn't need extra motivation - literally nobody was questioning his motives before CC. All Genesis does, as a character, is steal Sephi's agency as a villain and give Zack another rival to measure himself against.

 

But I'm not putting the effort in to break down or evaluate the character, if only because that would mean replaying the game. I just don't have that kind of time.

 

Or, y'know, caring.

Oh. Now I can see kinda where the hates coming from. It did kinda degrade Sephiroth as nothing more than a side effect of Genesis grand scheme. 

 

But in the end all im really trying to get across is I see Genesis as a legit (and good) character. I loved his cryptic speeches and the say he twisted words. Reminded me of Shakespeare.

[Warren Castille]

To each their own. I preferred Sephiroth as the hero-figure that goes bad as opposed to the manipulated enemy guy.

 

Griffith said it all far better, though.

[Griffith!]

I might be in the minority here, because I hope they actually do bring in stuff like Genesis and Deepground as a kind of expansion on the original when they do the remake. The only way I'll give a damn about the expanded universe is if there is some evidence of it existing in the original material.

 

I'm not saying they should shoe-horn everything in, and I hope to god it doesn't derail the plot if it is included, but as an optional sidequest that actually builds on the the crap they introduced in the prequel? Absolutely.

[Aaron]

Fair enough.

[Candor]

Aaron,

 

I know that you've already acknowledged the arguments of the others, but I think something that you're failing to take into account is that many of these people played FF7 years before any sort of expansion material was even in the pipeline. I was one of these people, playing FF7 when it was first released, and then practically creaming my jeans every time SquareEnix announced new material, starting with DoC. Then, like many others, I was disappointed - with the sole exception of AC. The reason I was disappointed, and the reason that AC was an exception, is because FF7 is a complete entity on its own. It asked all its own questions, and then answers every question that it asked. Nothing was left unaddressed. CC and DoC just add more answers to questions that were already answered.

 

For example, I could ask you, "What's your favorite color?" And you might reply, "Black, because black is versatile." That's all I need to know, and that's all you need to tell me. Then, a week later, a lifelong friend of yours contacts me and explains that he first liked black, and many years ago he explained to you the merits of black, and so you changed your favorite color from white to black. It's awkward, it's unnecessary, and suddenly your favorite color isn't yours anymore. It's your friend's, and you're just borrowing it.

 

DoC and CC (especially Genesis) do exactly that to FF7 and Sephiroth. AC does not, because AC happens significantly later, and operates independently of FF7. It asks and answers its own questions. It is by definition a sequel. It adds, instead of reviews and changes.

 

Now, if that wasn't enough to help you understand where we're coming from, you should take a closer look at the character of Sephiroth as Square Soft (not SquareEnix) executed him. Sephiroth was legendary, powerful, and he was intelligent. More than anything he, was a pretty smart guy. Throughout Sephiroth relevant cut scenes, he's constantly explaining and defining terms for Cloud/Zack. He's familiar with geography, ShinRa personnel, ShinRa corporate history, and the higher sciences of ShinRa's R&D including the specifics of Mako-human experiments and the finer details involved. More so, we're talking about a man who sleeplessly consumes a library on his own, and through myriad puzzle pieces scattered throughout dozens of books, reconstructs a secret past that ShinRa has worked very hard to cover. But most importantly of all, we're talking about a man who masters new abilities the moment he learns that he has them. Remember, Sephiroth was killed, and yet survived, then learned enough about his Jenova union to puppeteer Jenova, Cloud, and other clones from thousands of miles away. He didn't practice that. It's the same as you growing a third arm and immediately knowing how to type 60 wph with it.

 

The point is that Sephiroth was not a stupid person. He didn't need anyone to hand hold him and connect the dots for him, and implying that he does reduces the enormity of his presence. It's not unlike suddenly learning that Einstein had a best buddy who explained to him the Theory of Relativity, and then Einstein just regurgitated it. That's what Genesis does to Sephiroth.

 

I hope this helps you understand better what the others have been trying to explain to you.

[Aaron]

I know that you've already acknowledged the arguments of the others, but I think something that you're failing to take into account is that many of these people played FF7 years before any sort of expansion material was even in the pipeline.

 

 

 

 

 

^ I was too? I played it the year it came out. I understand everyones point perfectly. My point is youre closing yourself off to stuff just because "it didn't come with the original" which is a pretty unconventional reason not to live something. Sephiroth was and still is one of the best villians of Final Fantasy. To me, how he got there doesn't matter. Hes still badass.

 

And it's not like Genesis walked him like a puppy to his revelation. He literally had one real talk with him and even then SEPHIROTH didn't really believe him "Whether your words are lies created to deceive me or the truth I've been searching for, it makes no difference. You will rot."

 

^ one can probably assume Sephiroth found the truth out on his OWN still from that. But it doesn't lessen the fact Genesis put a card on the table.

 

By this, everyone shouldn't want a remake because it's not with the original Playstation they bought it on and it wont have that blocky nostalgia feel. Or a new car because it wasn't like the first one they ever got.

[cherrybomb]

The problem isn't just an aversion to anything that didn't happen in the original, though - you're kind of glossing over the more relevant point. Candor's post is absolutely spot-on; introducing a retcon for absolutely no narrative benefit besides over-complication for the sake of it is a major storytelling pitfall. (& as a metal gear fan i'm intimately familiar with it :II) Even putting aside all the stuff that makes Genesis such an obnoxious and trite character, his inclusion is just plain redundant and unnecessary, which is a thing that's endemic to the extended universe style of writing in general.

 

It's kind of telling that even a lot of the people who really like Crisis Core's story tend to say stuff like, "yea it was surprisingly good whenever Genesis wasn't on screen"

[Spethah]

Squeenix has been trolling us on a remake for a decade and they're finally announcing it. While I absolutely hate the concept* of the game, I'm very happy and excited to see that Squeenix is finally listening to the fans and are working on something that was revolutionary for it's time. Who knows, it might create another revolution given the current standing of the franchise (XII-XV holds more negative credits than the rest of the series).

 

I'll have to see whether it would be worthwhile to pay full retail price for a remake or not.

 

*Please note that the meaning of concept is a generalization of my opinion of the story, characters, dialogue and overall presentation based on the time I've played (233 hours) during the time I played (Release to 2003). While my opinion can be perceived as out of date, it does not mean that I am hating on your wonderful opinion on what you might see as an amazing game. Please do not misunderstand.

[Aaron]

The problem isn't just an aversion to anything that didn't happen in the original, though - you're kind of glossing over the more relevant point. Candor's post is absolutely spot-on; introducing a retcon for absolutely no narrative benefit besides over-complication for the sake of it is a major storytelling pitfall. (& as a metal gear fan i'm intimately familiar with it :II) Even putting aside all the stuff that makes Genesis such an obnoxious and trite character, his inclusion is just plain redundant and unnecessary, which is a thing that's endemic to the extended universe style of writing in general.

 

It's kind of telling that even a lot of the people who really like Crisis Core's story tend to say stuff like, "yea it was surprisingly good whenever Genesis wasn't on screen"

Except it wasn't really a retcon? SE didn't go "I like this guy so im gonna forget ff VII because I want him in it"

 

They literally took time to work him into the story. I've played all the games like everyone else and I can clearly see there's nothing astoundingly hurtful to anything in vii because of Genesis input.

 

Not like he picked Seph up and dropped him in Shinra manor. And everyone in CC that knew Genesis was either dead or corrupted in vii so of course he wasn't mentioned in vii.

 

He wasn't hurting the series contrary to everyones belief. Whether he helped it or was just there however is up to opinion. There's plenty people who liked Genesis as well (im one of em) but on this forum it seems im alone in that regard.

[Dravus]

It's...the very definition of a retcon. Sephiroth's story was satisfying enough on his own and his fall from grace already made perfect sense. He made his own conclusions and that was shown in the original game when Genesis didn't exist at all.

[Michikyou]

Reno in more glorious HD.

*swoon*

 

fangirling done.

[Aaron]

It's...the very definition of a retcon. Sephiroth's story was satisfying enough on his own and his fall from grace already made perfect sense. He made his own conclusions and that was shown in the original game when Genesis didn't exist at all.

An additive to a already established story (vaguely established at that) is not a retcon in the way people here imply negative affects the events of vii.

 

A negative retcon is what they did in last order with Sephiroth willingly jumping into the reactor vs Cloud literally tossing him in there originally. That literally contradicts what happens outright.

 

Everyone who knew Genesis on vii was dead or corrupted. They made it so it wouldn't conflict with anything in case people ask why wasn't he mentioned originally.

[Kellach Woods]

Also, can we make literally anyone who isn't Cloud not be a complete chump storyline-wise if we're including expanded universe?

 

I'm looking at you, Barret "Welp seems like my gun arm stopped working again" Wallace and Cid "All I'm good for in this movie is springboarding Cloud" Highwind.

 

This was one of my problems with FFVII - I had the gall to love characters that weren't Cloud and outright hated Aeris. I make that mistake all the time when it comes to the PSX FFs, I know.

 

So I DO hope the side characters get more fleshed out, and I don't mean Vincent. Let him be his broody ass '90s kid in Dirge.

[cherrybomb]

An additive to a already established story (vaguely established at that) is not a retcon in the way people here imply negative affects the events of vii.

 

A negative retcon is what they did in last order with Sephiroth willingly jumping into the reactor vs Cloud literally tossing him in there originally. That literally contradicts what happens outright.

 

Everyone who knew Genesis on vii was dead or corrupted. They made it so it wouldn't conflict with anything in case people ask why wasn't he mentioned originally.

 

It might not be a negative retcon to you, but it is to a lot of people, because again, it's completely unnecessary and only serves to dilute the character's motivations and over-complicate things for no narrative benefit. Practicing Occam's Razor in storytelling is cool & good; that's why an unnecessary addition to a story can be just as bad as an outright negative one. Especially in a mythos as convoluted as your average Final Fantasy game.

 

now brb, gotta go cringe forever because of how many times i've typed "retcon" today