Comparison of Dialogue

[SM Nick]

This may be far-fetched, but I was wondering if I could have the Japanese dialogue, translated literally into English (as in not the in-game English dialogue). I'm kinda thrown off by the fact that the English dialogue basically makes everyone British, and I don't like that.

 

I wanna know mainly for my fanfic: I plan on using the literal English translation as the dialogue used in my fanfic, because I don't want everyone to sound British and such. I just like the Japanese dialogue more as I feel that's what the characters are truly saying, but I can't understand them because I don't know that much Japanese.

 

So is there anything, anything I can use as a reference or such?

 

Sorry if I offend any of you guys living in Britain or are British, please understand. I have nothing against you guys. None at all. I would just like a more accurate dialogue.

[Hyakki]

Its been said by the developers multiple times that much of the game's lore and dialogue was first done in English first then localized for JP/FR/DE therefore, the English dialogue is the accurate one.

[SM Nick]

Its been said by the developers multiple times that much of the game's lore and dialogue was first done in English first then localized for JP/FR/DE therefore, the English dialogue is the accurate one.

 

If that's true, I would like to at least change up the script so they don't sound TOO British...unless it's fine the way it is?

 

I will definitely use the JP dialogue for Midgardsormr (at the Keeper of the Lake), or a custom dialogue based on the JP dialogue, since I want to portray Middy as an ally to the heroes.

[Faye]

Erm... I have no idea what you're getting at, unless you mean you don't like the British slang and ye olde English some of the NPC's use? It's not too difficult to fill in the gaps and rewrite it yourself.

[Kage]

Its been said by the developers multiple times that much of the game's lore and dialogue was first done in English first then localized for JP/FR/DE therefore, the English dialogue is the accurate one.

I'm pretty sure that this is not completely true. They work in tandem. The Localization teams work right next to the development team. Edit: The point being that they are all accurate. The first may actually be the Japanese but they're finished pretty much right at the same time. Edit2: There are in fact cases where the English version is created first and then Japanese is done afterwards but it is not -always- the case.

 

Edit3: Case of English to Japanese is of Achievement titles.

The case with player titles is one of many aspects of this game where the localization team is called in to create content, with the Japanese then going off the English. In this case, the dev team has taken it one step further (or maybe it's actually closer?) by not translating the titles into Japanese and using English in the the Japanese version.

 

In the case of some dialogue between Midgardsomr and others.. the Japanese dialogue was localized into English.

o finally we get to 2.5. In this patch are scenes in which a certain dragon speaks directly with the player. Here, the dragon has chosen to use the tongue of the player rather than his own language. When the EN Localization team received the relatively wordy Japanese lines for this scene, we felt that it would fit the character and his native language better if we localized it in a manner that seemed a natural fit with the dragon language I had created—that being something that was far more compact, but still contained the main core that was in the Japanese. And thus emerged the difference in the length of lines—EN being somewhat shorter than the JP. So fear not, for the content (while slightly jumbled up to accommodate the differences in grammatical flow between Japanese and English) is, for the most part, similar between versions, and Japanese users are not somehow privy to secrets lost to the winds of translation.

[Pepe]

Mod Note: User has been warned for this post under Attitude and Tone.

[Lilia Lia]

I just wanted to say I know exactly what you're getting at and I share your frustration.  I have Japanese audio and English subtitles and I can't help feeling like the translation takes a lot of liberties (regardless whether the English or the Japanese was the original).  Every time I hear the character say "Nani?" and the English text is something like "Is aught amiss?" or "What hath transpired heretofore?" it just grates on me and it makes me wonder how much difference there actually is between the Japanese and the English scripts.  Is the Japanese dialogue also overloaded with the equivalent of a corny pseudo-archaic dialect?  I'm not sure but I'd be surprised if it were.

 

Square-Enix also did this with the new translation of Final Fantasy Tactics and it's interesting to compare the old and the new translations, because apparently they decided the original Tactics translation was too literal and not "ye olde" enough. 

 

For fanfiction you should feel free to deviate and correct the flaws in the writing of the original, obviously.  Just because the Square English team likes to write like high-schoolers imitating Shakespeare, doesn't mean you have to.

 

[edit] I did a bit of reading up on it, and it seems like the English and Japanese scripts are just written separately, so one is not really a translation of the other. Even so, I think they're hamming up the dialogue far too much. You should feel free to pare it back to tasteful levels in your writing, in my opinion.

[Nako Vesh]

Erm... I have no idea what you're getting at, unless you mean you don't like the British slang and ye olde English some of the NPC's use? It's not too difficult to fill in the gaps and rewrite it yourself.

 

If this is what the OP is talking about, there's no literal way to translate old forms of extremely formal Japanese speech. There's no English equivalent. The only way to come close to that is to use "ye olde" English in its place.

[Zyrusticae]

It's not really British at all, honestly. It's just a fictional variant of English dialect that they decided to create to give the game more of a fantastical, unearthly feel. Personally, I quite like it, as it gives the game its own unique flavor.

 

It's not meant to imitate Shakespeare (and it really doesn't if you read any of Shakespeare's actual works), nor is it really Medieval-style English (that's even worse than Shakespeare in terms of modern comprehensibility). It's just flavor and seasoning, that's all.

 

That being said, it shouldn't be very difficult for you to rewrite the dialogue to modern English if that's your thing, since it already only uses a handful of archaic words and phrases to create that flavor. Just replace them with more modern terms and you're good to go.

 

I just wanted to say I know exactly what you're getting at and I share your frustration.  I have Japanese audio and English subtitles and I can't help feeling like the translation takes a lot of liberties (regardless whether the English or the Japanese was the original).  Every time I hear the character say "Nani?" and the English text is something like "Is aught amiss?" or "What hath transpired heretofore?" it just grates on me and it makes me wonder how much difference there actually is between the Japanese and the English scripts.  Is the Japanese dialogue also overloaded with the equivalent of a corny pseudo-archaic dialect?  I'm not sure but I'd be surprised if it were.

 

Somehow I fail to see the issue here. They don't have to be the same. Japanese and English in particular have so many enormous grammatical, stylistic, and cultural differences between the two that a literal translation is barely even comprehensible to native English speakers. If I did an actually literal translation of the Japanese dialect I'd have to do a LOT of omission of subjects and essential words that make English sound like English.

 

Hence, they just write separate dialogue that puts the same points across. It's the preferable route to take, IMO, especially for native English speakers as they will have a much easier time navigating the dialogue than with the alternative, more literal approach.

[V'aleera]

Erm... I have no idea what you're getting at, unless you mean you don't like the British slang and ye olde English some of the NPC's use? It's not too difficult to fill in the gaps and rewrite it yourself.

 

If this is what the OP is talking about, there's no literal way to translate old forms of extremely formal Japanese speech. There's no English equivalent. The only way to come close to that is to use "ye olde" English in its place.

This is correct. A lot of the Japanese dialogue, especially with the Grand Company leaders, nobles, and other elevated figures, uses very archaic manners of speech and grammar. If you tried to talk to a Japanese person in the same way the characters do in game their reaction would likely be very in line with the OPs toward the English variant.

[SM Nick]

Alright set up a poll so I can finally come to a conclusion with this. I admit it's to make the game unique by having its own dialects and stuff, but I want the main characters to be distinct in their wordage.

 

Mace for example, grew up in the Thanalan desert, and is basically a rough and hot-blooded adventurer who wants to enjoy life and live.

[cherrybomb]

I know that everyone has their preference, but from what I've read of the transcripts, the Japanese dialogue is the definition of dry and literal. It's perfectly serviceable, but bland, and I can't imagine willingly choosing it over the alternative. The English localization has so much in the way of flavor and wit, and I love it for that.

 

EDIT: But, the cool thing is, my opinion doesn't matter - yours does! If you don't think you'll enjoy trying to ape the flavor of the game, it's going to be an excruciating process for you. It's your fanfic and you should absolutely write what's fun and right for you.

 

Square-Enix also did this with the new translation of Final Fantasy Tactics and it's interesting to compare the old and the new translations, because apparently they decided the original Tactics translation was too literal and not "ye olde" enough. 

 

To be fair, the original Tactics script had a notoriously, lovably inept translation. We're talking Grade-A engrish, here.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I'm perhaps a little more confused at the purpose of the poll.

 

..is this for RP dialogue? Because Square-Enix is most likely not going to modify their script or localization settings.

 

For what it's worth, English is the only language they chose to localize the way they envisioned people speaking. This was likely due to how flexible the language is. Archaic Japanese wouldn't work in the Japanese dialogue because it'd require an education in arcaic Japanese! English, on the other hand, has a MASSIVE vocabulary, and while yes, it's changed quite considerably since Middle English, Modern English hasn't particularly shifted aside from some vocabulary choices.

 

In my own writing, I don't really use a lot of the more arcaic words, usually. I might use some for flavor text, like "anyroad" or "smallclothes", but like a lot of the NPCs, I'm not spouting "thou" and "ye" left and right, although some certainly do! (I'm looking at YOU, Urianger)

[SM Nick]

I'm perhaps a little more confused at the purpose of the poll.

 

..is this for RP dialogue? Because Square-Enix is most likely not going to modify their script or localization settings.

 

For what it's worth, English is the only language they chose to localize the way they envisioned people speaking. This was likely due to how flexible the language is. Archaic Japanese wouldn't work in the Japanese dialogue because it'd require an education in arcaic Japanese! English, on the other hand, has a MASSIVE vocabulary, and while yes, it's changed quite considerably since Middle English, Modern English hasn't particularly shifted aside from some vocabulary choices.

 

In my own writing, I don't really use a lot of the more arcaic words, usually. I might use some for flavor text, like "anyroad" or "smallclothes", but like a lot of the NPCs, I'm not spouting "thou" and "ye" left and right, although some certainly do! (I'm looking at YOU, Urianger)

 

This is for the dialogue I will be implementing in my FFXIV fanfic - Hydaelyn Unlimited, which is separate from RP.

[Kaniko Niko]

Warrior of Light: 私は猫です。(Watashi wa neko desu.)

 

Alphinaud: 私は猫あります。 (Boku wa neko desu.)

 

Minfilia:私は猫であります。(Watakushi wa neko de arimasu.)

 

House Dzemael: 吾輩は猫である。(Wagahai wa neko de aru.)

 

First Sword Mylla: うちは猫だ。(Uchi wa neko da.)

 

For those of you who are astute, experienced or simply just looked it up on the internet—every one of those (rather poorly constructed) sentences translates, very literally to: "I am a cat."

 

Yes. I got the idea from the 1905 Japanese novel I Am a Cat.

 

Despite every one of those sentences convening the same meaning (The speaker being a cat) each one of them carries a very different intonation. The WoL is speaking in the neutral register. Alphinaud is speaking as a cocksure young lad. Minfilia is a demure woman. Those in House Dzemael are pompous, bombastic and confrontational. Mylla, the Gladiator Grandmaster, is speaking in a thick, regional accent with little need for polite social structure. None of these are "poetic" or "flowery", they each have their own place in the Japanese lexicon and you can tell a lot about a person by their tone and register.

 

Now, I haven't done very much formal education in Japanese. In fact, I haven't done any formal education in Japanese. I've been there, yes, for a period of time. But that's about it. But I do know enough that every time I see people hark and place "the Japanese version" of anything on a pedestal I immediately get the referee to raise the yellow card.

 

I'm going to say it: It stinks of weeaboo.

 

I get it. You want the subtle intonation, the 'hidden deeper meaning', the intrigue that comes with skillful use of conversational register—keigo.

 

Well, we don't have that option in English. When one wants to bump up to a more polite register, we stop using contractions. We enunciate our words firmly and more clearly. We can add or subtract words such as please and thank you but there is simply no analogue to Japanese grammar structure in English. It isn't that it'd be hard to translate literally... It's impossible. You're asking to convert kilograms into Ohms.

 

Edit: All this talk about tone and register and it seems as though I made my post waaaay too confrontational than I anticipated. Apologies. Changed my wording around.

[allgivenover]

Japanese and English in particular have so many enormous grammatical, stylistic, and cultural differences between the two that a literal translation is barely even comprehensible to native English speakers.

 

This.

[Sylentmana]

I don't really think the characters sound "British." Many seem to have more "American" accents, but I do find the olde english that they seem to use to often be tedious at best.  They often say basic things in such a round about way I often loose focus on what they just said.  And don't even get me started on the rogues in Limsa.  I can't even understand half of what comes out of their mouths.

[Aya]

I'm giggling a little at the thought that the older-styled English sounds "British" -as if modern Britons are tossing about "ye" and "thine" in conversation :-]

 

I've enjoyed the discussion!  I think there is partly an effort in many fantasy games to make the language sound pre-modern through the use of some older forms and words, and this combines in FF with an attempt to capture the concept of an older, more formal tone through old language!

 

That said, I find it pretty silly that "thee" is being used to try to make the language sound more polite.  The plural "you" was the more polite and formal way of saying the singular "thou", and that's why it eventually ate "thou" and replaced it!  That it now sounds more formal to some ears.. is a precious irony!

[Lilia Lia]

But I do know enough that every time I see people hark and place "the Japanese version" of anything on a pedestal I immediately get the referee to raise the yellow card.

 

I'm going to say it: It stinks of weeaboo.

 

I think you're making an adverse assumption here that's a little unfair.  The OP was asking if there was a translation of the original Japanese anywhere that didn't have everyone "sounding British" like we see in the English script.  Nobody has said that the Japanese script is "better."  It's just that the English script is eye-rollingly bloated at times and it gives you a feeling like the grass might possibly be greener on the other side of the fence.

 

I'm glad that you highlighted the untranslatable nuance with your very helpful example though because it gives a lot of perspective.  It's just that the overly formal tone of the English script tends to make the characters' lines feel artificial or belaboured when they ought to be more spontaneous.  "Is aught amiss?" is hardly something you'd hear a person saying frantically after seeing something shocking happen.  It sounds more like something a person would say to another over a cup of tea and with general disinterest as to whether aught actually was amiss. 

 

Regardless of whether it's intended to "evoke an older time and place," it does the script a disservice by making it come off as less genuine. 

 

At least in my case, the real gripe here is with a general flaw in the writing that prevents it from being as good as it might be able to be otherwise, whether it's a translation or not...

 

I realize in some respect this is a subjective preference and there are probably people who like the archaic bloat of the English script, but I think if it's trying to capture some nuance of the Japanese then it's a failed venture and they should just write characters who talk the way people actually talk so I can enjoy my story.

[Manari]

 And don't even get me started on the rogues in Limsa.  I can't even understand half of what comes out of their mouths.

 

I can't stand trying to read the dialog for people speaking a Limsan accent. It's hard enough to mentally sound out what you are reading to replace all the missing letters that are trying to convey the accent, but then they top it off with odd and strange figures of speech that often times make no sense and are trying to give them impression that Limans have their own sub language. It's just a pain to mentally sort out the written dialog that I usually just skip through it all when I'm forced to deal with pirate speak.

[Enla]

Japanese and English in particular have so many enormous grammatical, stylistic, and cultural differences between the two that a literal translation is barely even comprehensible to native English speakers.

 

This.

 

Pretty much, not that there's anything wrong with preferring one over the other - but anyone who is a fan of dubbed media knows very well just what a nose dive the quality of a product can take when the production company tries to translate everything for it's most literal meaning. Half of the nuances are either lost and even if that isn't the case most of the jokes and witticisms just frankly sail right over the dubbed market's heads because they did not grow up speaking the original language. It's why these days most producers, at least in the anime scene, are pretty much alright with the localizers taking liberties that still preserve the heart of the original but don't make the new script read like watching paste dry.

[Arthur]

hmmm, I believe the localization team has been doing its damnedest to make the English script as meaningful and intelligible as possible, yes. but I really feel there is some nuance lost at times.

 

I just finished the Chrysalis and the part where Nabriales is destroyed, well. I feel the Japanese dialogue feels better with regards to tone. when Moenbryda sacrifices herself to contribute more aether to the Blade of Light, Nabriales cries out in protest something to the effect of, 'No! I am immortal! I am eternal...!' but the Japanese audio is literally more like, 'No! I'm fading! I'm fading, I'm fading, I'm fading...!' and I don't know, it lends more desperation to the whole situation. it shows us, rather than tells us, how incredible and unprecedented the extinguishing of an Ascian soul really is.

 

 

 

as someone who dabbles in JP -> ENG translation, I get the fact that literal translations sometimes make little sense, but I agree with the OP's point. translation is more than just converting words to another language because there aren't always equivalent words and concepts, and a good translator understands that and adapts to their audience. but still, it does feel as if little bits and pieces of the dialogue are lost in translation.

[Lilia Lia]

That said, I find it pretty silly that "thee" is being used to try to make the language sound more polite.  The plural "you" was the more polite and formal way of saying the singular "thou", and that's why it eventually ate "thou" and replaced it!  That it now sounds more formal to some ears.. is a precious irony!

 

Yep!  I'm sure you can appreciate that they at least managed to use "thee" and "thine" and the archaic verb conjugations correctly, which a lot of video games simply don't bother to do.  Even today you see a lot of games with Early Modern English travesties with misplaced -eth/-est verb conjugations and using "thee" and "thou" interchangeably.  At least FFXIV manages to get the grammar right.

[ZoktaiKhor]

-raises hand- I can attempt to translate any old Kanji and Katakana you may need.

 

My grandma didn't teach me Hiragana so no luck there though.

[SM Nick]

hmmm, I believe the localization team has been doing its damnedest to make the English script as meaningful and intelligible as possible, yes. but I really feel there is some nuance lost at times.

 

I just finished the Chrysalis and the part where Nabriales is destroyed, well. I feel the Japanese dialogue feels better with regards to tone. when Moenbryda sacrifices herself to contribute more aether to the Blade of Light, Nabriales cries out in protest something to the effect of, 'No! I am immortal! I am eternal...!' but the Japanese audio is literally more like, 'No! I'm fading! I'm fading, I'm fading, I'm fading...!' and I don't know, it lends more desperation to the whole situation. it shows us, rather than tells us, how incredible and unprecedented the extinguishing of an Ascian soul really is.

 

 

 

as someone who dabbles in JP -> ENG translation, I get the fact that literal translations sometimes make little sense, but I agree with the OP's point. translation is more than just converting words to another language because there aren't always equivalent words and concepts, and a good translator understands that and adapts to their audience. but still, it does feel as if little bits and pieces of the dialogue are lost in translation.

 

Exactly. I only wish to convey what is actually supposed to be represented. I want to regain that which was lost in translation.

 

-raises hand- I can attempt to translate any old Kanji and Katakana you may need.

 

My grandma didn't teach me Hiragana so no luck there though.

 

That will really be helpful. I can handle the hiragana myself so no problem with that.