RP issue with White Mage

[Flickering Ember]

My policy with this has always been the same:

"Fuck em."

 

And then you [see: not you personally] wonder why people stop talking to you.  Seriously.  NOT this.  The attitude of "I do what I want" is one of the most selfish and off-putting ones in any role-play community.  If you're not going to respect Square Enix's creation then don't expect any in return.

 

There is a line between doing what you like, and also understanding what will be palatable in the community at large.

 

Part of being a good community member, in my opinion, is to keep the viewpoints of others in mind, just like real life. That's how collaborative experiences work, "Fuck you I do what I want." Is not a good basis for collaboration, it's only a good basis for self absorption.

 

If you truly wish to just not give a fuck about what other's think, then things like forum RP or writing stories are good for that. IMO RP is all about collaboration, which requires give and take.

 

 

Balance, imo, is key.

 

Don't blindly conform, especially if it would make you unhappy. Do what makes you happy but at the same time be a generous RPer who gives back to the community and maintains interest in others. It's not all about you but at the same time we're really only in charge of ourselves.

 

Does that make any sense?

[shotgunbadger]

It's possible to be confident without being close-minded. Everyone's overlooking the meta, I think, that also exists in a pretty secure grey bubble: If someone claims to be a white mage, not everyone ICly is going to have the knowledge of what that job entails. I don't imagine very many folks can stand up and shout THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, YOU CAN'T BE ONE BECAUSE THE ELEMENTALS FORBID IT! Does anyone casually know the inner workings of Padjal society? What they really are? What they can do?

 

If someone says they're a White Mage and they're out of place (read: not protecting the Shroud) it's reasonable to express doubt. If they then show they can channel succor, it's also reasonable to express surprise. Something I've always said is that the average person isn't going to know what succor feels like anyway: If we buy into the "your aether is personal and different depending on the user" fluff then no two healers would "feel" the same anyway.

 

I'm rambling a bit because sleepy Warren is sleepy, but it comes down to plausibility. Running around Limsa Holy-bombing things is much less believable than, say, a healer going on a pilgrimage to study the extent of the Calamity. Write what you want, but try to be respectful. If it flows, people will respond positively to it.

 

Gotta agree with this post here. If you were to come to my characters claiming to be a White Magie without being a special forest snowflake creature they'd go 'haha what are you tugging my chain' but then if you actually showed some level of advanced healing magic that, reasonably, only a proper White Mage could do they'd go 'oh shit what, how' rather than me going right to WHAT NO FUCK THIS I OUT.

 

Now if you then went on to say you're actually an elemental in human form who has lived since the first Astral age somehow who's personally killed every Primal, yea that's when I go 'uh, bye' but if your answer is 'yea dude I went on a really intense spirit quest and it took so much study and training and risk for myself but eventually I was able to tap into that shit with guidance', yea cool, we can work something out there.

 

People deserve a chance, they don't need unconditional agreement, but they deserve at least a chance to put their stuff out there and let you decide from there. A White Mage in character would need a pretty big story why that happened, but inherently I wouldn't write them off.

[Dravus]

I'm rather fond of the lore that FFXIV has given us to work with. In my opinion it's a lot more in-depth and interesting than what certain other MMO's are offering at the moment. So, ideally, I prefer it when people work with what we have rather than what we don't have.

 

If something can be passed off as plausible - even if it bends the lore from time to time - then I have no issue with it. I do, however, have a major issue with the 'I do what I want' mentality that is, unfortunately, quite prevalent within MMO role-playing communities.

 

I also don't believe that someone should be made to feel ashamed for wanting to adhere to the lore closely. Especially if they're rather fond of the intriguing world FFXIV brings to life.

[Sounsyy]

Taking a different stance than I usually take on this sort of subject, I'll just say this:

 

For a magic that's been buried in a tree and forgotten for 1,600 years and the knowledge of its continued existence has only been entrusted to about six very isolated families who live their entire lifetime out in the deep Woods... a lot of people in Eorzea sure do seem to know a lot about white magic's forbidden-ness ICly. Hmm...

[111]

Taking a different stance than I usually take on this sort of subject, I'll just say this:

 

For a magic that's been buried in a tree and forgotten for 1,600 years and the knowledge of its continued existence has only been entrusted to about six very isolated families who live their entire lifetime out in the deep Woods... a lot of people in Eorzea sure do seem to know a lot about white magic's forbidden-ness ICly. Hmm...

 

I thought it was common knowledge that it almost destroyed the world.

 

Is that not true?

[Sounsyy]

Taking a different stance than I usually take on this sort of subject, I'll just say this:

 

For a magic that's been buried in a tree and forgotten for 1,600 years and the knowledge of its continued existence has only been entrusted to about six very isolated families who live their entire lifetime out in the deep Woods... a lot of people in Eorzea sure do seem to know a lot about white magic's forbidden-ness ICly. Hmm...

 

I thought it was common knowledge that it almost destroyed the world.

 

Is that not true?

 

Not unless you are a scholar of ancient history, no. When Raya-O first uses her magic she has to explain to the PC (a now experienced conjurer) that what she had just used was white magic and actually explain what succor is and why its no longer used. The average person doesn't know what it is. Just like the average person doesn't know that Ul'dah actually zombified Sil'dih. And that was only 400 years ago.

[shotgunbadger]

From what I understand it's 'common knowledge' that the magic war or whatever it was called involved incredibly destructive and world shaping magics, and among the very magically educated they know the names of those magics. Basically it'd be like if it was common knowledge that World War 2 ended with a horrific use of a military weapon, but only people really educated in history or military stuff would know 'yea those were nukes, dawg'.

 

That's my understanding at least, Black Magic is more 'common' in the sense that it's fairly known there is a special kind of very destructive magics that was especially powerful, but White Magic has literally been buried in the forest for ages.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

From what I understand it's 'common knowledge' that the magic war or whatever it was called involved incredibly destructive and world shaping magics, and among the very magically educated they know the names of those magics. Basically it'd be like if it was common knowledge that World War 2 ended with a horrific use of a military weapon, but only people really educated in history or military stuff would know 'yea those were nukes, dawg'.

 

That's my understanding at least, Black Magic is more 'common' in the sense that it's fairly known  there is a special kind of very destructive magics that was especially powerful, but White Magic has literally been buried in the forest for ages.

 

I think what Sounsyy's trying to get at is that it's common OOC knowledge, but exceedingly rare IC knowledge.

 

But even Black Magic is extremely rare. As the player character, we literally learn "the secrets of the Black".

[Enla]

Huh, I hadn't remembered that part. If Enla ever comes across someone claiming to be a WHM now I'll have to amend her answer to being more quizzical than outright 'u wot m8'. Thanks Sounsyy for clearing that up.

[Sounsyy]

From what I understand it's 'common knowledge' that the magic war or whatever it was called involved incredibly destructive and world shaping magics, and among the very magically educated they know the names of those magics. Basically it'd be like if it was common knowledge that World War 2 ended with a horrific use of a military weapon, but only people really educated in history or military stuff would know 'yea those were nukes, dawg'.

 

That's my understanding at least, Black Magic is more 'common' in the sense that it's fairly known there is a special kind of very destructive magics that was especially powerful, but White Magic has literally been buried in the forest for ages.

 

Except WW2 was only 75 years ago, versus 1,600. And without internet or access to public education, on top of the fact that this knowledge was intentionally hidden from the public, I find it hard to believe that any of this was common knowledge.

 

The reason Black Magic specifically is more commonly known in Ul'dah, is because the surviving Magi from the 6th Umbral Calamity came together and formed the city of Belah'dia - a city specifically for Magi because the rest of Eorzea had ostracized them and cast them out. Belah'dian Magi retrace the routes of Black Magic back into Thaumaturgy and continue on the practice for the next thousand years. Belah'dia splits into Sil'dih and Ul'dah, and Ul'dah still exists to this day. And, quite pertinent, to the original 1.0 storyline for Thaumaturge, it required them to do a lot of reading and study on their magic and its roots. However, we are told that these tomes on the "dark arts" are kept in the forbidden section of the Ossuary's library.

 

 

White magic, on the other hand, was supposedly all but wiped out. First by the Black Mages when they destroyed Amdapor shortly before the end of the war. Then by the Flood which swallowed Eorzea. The Elementals then cast out everyone from Amdapor and grew up the forest (and a giant tree) around Amdapor. Egress into the Wood was not permitted to anyone for 1000 years afterwards. Succor was then only gifted to the Padjal, a race of the Elemental's own creation, of which we only know of six families. It's expressed in the WHM storylines that this is an extremely close guarded secret of the Padjal and that likely Gridanians don't even know exactly what separates a Padjal's Succor from a very skillful Conjurer. Given that the Elemental's word is law, I find it hard to swallow that there are too many within Gridania who are keen to pry into the Elemental's power. And outsiders have only been allowed into the Black Shroud in the last 100 years since the Autumn War, so not a lot of outsider influence to be had there either.

[111]

That's good to know, so for 99% of people in the world, the reaction to having someone say they're a white mage is...

 

"Oh... what's a white mage?"

 

I'm ok with this.

[LiadansWhisper]

I guess that I just don't get why anyone would think they had to be a White Mage to RP an effective healer.  I mean, the vast majority of the spells you use as a White Mage aren't even White Mage spells at all.  They're Conjurer spells.  So this is stuff that any experienced Conjurer could/would know.

 

The only spells you don't have access to if you RP a Conjurer and not a White Mage are rather niche spells.  They're not main line, heavy-duty healing spells.  All of those spells are from Conjurer, not White Mage.

[Dis]

I deal with White Magic (specifically being a White Mage ICly) to the effect of Glioca knowing there was more beyond being a Conjurer, and researching and developing spells on her own that tie in other fields of magic to mimic what little information she could find on White Magic.  She generally uses spells and calls them something else anyway (not the spell names seen in game), so she passes what would be White Magic off as incredibly strong healing magic that totally isn't White Magic.

 

I've not run up against anyone yet who has had a problem with me doing that.  She doesn't specifically call herself a White Mage, which helps.  I think using the spells and calling it something else tends to be the easiest pass I've seen others have no issue with.  

 

"Sure, you can use similar powerful healing magic, but don't call yourself so and so class because that's technically not allowable according to the lore."  

 

Which does make sense in that it would be strange for the Elementals to suddenly be cool with a ton of White Mages running around.

[Gegenji]

I didn't know that the knowledge of White Magic was actually so... unknown. It makes sense given the circumstances, though. If it wasn't, I would assume folks would be seeking to try and revive it much sooner - or find the alternatives that the lore folks have been hinting at but have yet to show?

 

I was actually initially worried when I read through this that Gogon's knowledge and subsequent hunting for an Amdaporian Soul Crystal would suddenly be lore-breaking. However, then I realized that he's already spent plenty of time studying Nymian history and tactics and whatnot - which would include conflicts with the Mcachi and Amdapori. In fact, this better explains why he was actually able to find one in one of their ruins - people aren't actively out and looking for them.

 

So "finding an Amdapori Soul Crystal" is still a valid thing... it's just that most folks - unless they're well-read on the War of the Magi - will have no idea what it is and what is contained within.

[Thorgar]

Thanks again for all the posts, im learning alot!  Oh amusing side note: was Rping last night and ran across a white mage claiming to be a white mage.  The response they got from my Roe Warrior was "but your wearing blue".  Seeing as his level on knowledge of spell casters is how to hit them very hard, very fast till their heads smush i think this was appropriate lol.

 

Has anyone ever written to Square Enix with the intent of getting this clarified?

[ArmachiA]

That's pretty much my biggest problem with bending lore to play a WHM, it's really really hard to do and it gets murky really easily so I tend to avoid it. There's basically a bunch of reasons why you can't, constant hurdles you have to find your way around (Oh, it's forbidden, oh only the padjal know it, oh the Elementals guard the succor and they say no, oh, only a few people even know what a white mage is, etc etc) it just doesn't seem worth trying to do the mental gymnastics it would take to A. Explain it, and B. have it explained to me plausibly. Especially when a White Mage is really someone who dedicates their life to the Shroud and the Elementals and you can easily be just as an effective healer as a very strong Conjurer and it wouldn't change your story.

 

I've expressed a lot of dislike about WHM ICly over the years, but I actually think most of that comes from the fact you can be the EXACT same character without needing the White Mage thing. Most people don't play servants to the Shroud, in fact a lot of people who say they are WHMs (Who I've seen) don't even hang in Gridania. There's nothing wrong with just being a Conjurer in this instance and - to a lot of new peoples credit who I have talked to - most people agree once it's explained to them in such a way. VERY few get the "I do what I want so eff you" attitude.

 

As someone stated above, a new player isn't going to know White Mage is gated so heavily, and may just call themselves that simply because "Well, it's Final Fantasy, that's what healers are." It's good that, to a lot of veterans credit, people don't mind explaining it over and over and over again (Just look at how any threads there are on the subject) so new players understand. Informed decisions are much better than "Well, you go do whatever you want." without any explanation.

 

I'm pretty stringent on this, and I'm in a guild that is also stringent. If you say your a White Mage ICly, my character won't know what that is. And if you try to explain it's what the Padjal do, my character will flat out not believe yours. I'm with everyone else, EVERYTHING can be explained well enough if you do your homework, and if your reason is plausible - if your able to clear the many hurdles it takes to be a White Mage - then I'll probably still rp with you. I'm stricter on White Mage then I am on most things in this game, but I won't refuse to rp with you unless you get all uppity about my preferences on lore.

[Sounsyy]

Has anyone ever written to Square Enix with the intent of getting this clarified?

 

Not entirely sure what you mean by clarified? But the exclusivity of White Mage is working as intended.

 

(skip to 35:30)

Las Vegas Lore Panel

[Blue]

I have been RPing a WHM for months and never had issues with anyone. The tricks in general are:

 

- Don't flaunt it. I have been wearing the WHM AF IC, but I don't go around saying "I am a White Mage!" unless people ICly ask me. And if they ask me, it's generally because they are OOCly okay with it.

 

- If people call you "conjurer", don't get irritated/correct them. White Mages are still conjurers. You are still a member of the Conjurer's guild, so if people are more comfortable with calling you that, just nod and let them.

 

- If they ICly/OOCly tell you you are not a White Mage/can't be a White Mage, shrug it off and walk away. Nobody can tell you what you can and can't RP.

 

I RP a White Mage in a group with two other IC White Mages. How did we do it? We had the Hedgetree give three soul gems and not one, and we performed the Quieting together instead of just The Chosen One + two Padjali WHMs as the quest intends.

 

Are we open to think there are more White Mages out there ICly? Yes. We do not ICly or OOCly think there can be just one soul stone, and Quieting rituals are necessary more than just once, so it's perfectly legit for us to walk and encounter others who did just what we did.

 

Minimal lore bending (three stones instead of one) and common sense (the Quieting may be needed again at any given time) were enough for us to make, to our IC/OOC perspective White Mage a class accessible to more than one person without much trouble.

 

So again the two rules to follow to make sure you don't offend those who don't agree with this is: don't mention being a White Mage unless people directly ask you (it's taken as flaunting, but do wear WHM AF if you want, apparently that isn't perceived as such for some reason), don't forget your Conjury roots and don't get into arguments with others ICly about it. Be confident in yourself, and if ICly accused, simply state something along the lines "I do not need you to believe me, I am at ease knowing the truth.".

 

But again, people will hardly ask you if you are a White Mage unless they are already okay with it, because normally people don't want to hear what they don't like.

 

"But what if they ask me what I do for a living?" Simply give the same answer conjurers do, because White Mages do exactly the same thing. Wander around, heeding to the Elementals' will and bestowing healing magick on those in need. Or, as Blue would put it..

 

"I am an adventurer. I help."

[Ignacius]

As with all issues of this nature, play what you're going to play.  People will play with you or they won't.  If you're fun to play with, it's their loss.

 

You do you.

[Hyrist]

I feel as if I am doing the group a disservice not doing a write up and discussion on the topic of Layered Cannons. 

 

In this particular case, the case where the larger Lore says "This thing is rare and forbidden." The wider ideals of Cannon, that of Lore and Public Cannon, would have the keep the rule and public context enforced. So, it would be frowned upon to be outward on the public level about it.

 

However, in deeper, smaller Canon circles, such a thing could be permissible as an 'exception' to the lore as lore is always established by setting rules and watching the story break those rules, and then explain the reasons in order to expand the lore.

 

So in this case, being a White Mage is permissible in any group that tolerates or encourages it. Anyone within your Personal Canon circle who's cool with it would be fine, as you're the one in control of who's in your own circle, and of course, Headcannon you pretty much have free reign.

 

In short, the smaller your circle, the more you can get away with bending or breaking lore. Just be respectful of those who are trying to keep the public light more adherent to it.

[Hammersmith]

I'm one of those people who doesn't like to bring mechanical things like soul crystals into actual RP.  They're literally weird skill switchers and they only show up for Warrior of Light stuff.  Don't see them anywhere else.

 

With that said, how does this relate to White Mages?

 

Assuming (Correctly) that we shouldn't dip our hands into Lore Lore Lore, and then just...kind of squish it into a shape it isn't, there's another option.

 

There's a very common thread of "White" and "Black" magic being two schools of use.  White for it's warding, healing, etc etc.  Things like salt circles and herbalism are examples of RL things considered "White" magic, while setting people on fire and cursing them are "Black".

 

Maybe the average adventurer knows better, but the average peasant doesn't.  Magic is weird.  Magic is scarey.  Magic made their chocobo explode and set the barn on fire.  Magic healed the burns.  Burny magic is black and scarey.  White magic makes the scars afterwards less severe.

 

My char takes that kind of view.  Someone says they're a "White Mage" ?  He's going to assume you're more "fixer" than "fucker". Succor isn't something he knows about or frankly cares about.

 

If you say you're a black mage? He expects explosions and aether fueled wrath. He doesn't know there used to be a whole of of terrible revolving around something specifically CALLED Black Mages. He just knows black magic's connotation is "And now you're screwed."

 

It's a good medium place without needing to pull soulstones and ~forgotten lore only I possess~ into a story where it doesn't fit, but lets you keep the titles.

 

You don't NEED succor to be a white mage, you don't need the secrets of the black to be a black mage.  It can, and often is, as much attitude, to the common people.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

post

 

Except (and this is where it gets funky) ....conjurers were the ones to make things go boom/zap/whoosh/blamo and thaumaturges were the ones to set the balance of life and death.

 

When the Battle Team at SE decided to add in Jobs, they retconned the old class mechanics, but the lore never really changed. (There were remnants in 1.0 that carried over, but then they did a massive skill retcon for 2.0 and later).

 

So at least in FFXIV, White magics isn't end-all healy goodness while Black magic makes things go boom. ...despite them being treated that way by the battle team which punched the lore team in the jaw.

 

And to our average farmer/city person/not-adventurer, calling magic "white", "black", "pink", "green" or any other color probably just sounds silly. They know conjury, thaumaturgy, arcanima and now astrology, I guess.

[Hyrist]

In terms of talking about chromatic mages and their professions within the game. FFXI had a 'brown mage' who dealt particularly in digestion magic. I do wonder if SE will be re-implementing certain references of out-of-norm type mages or just cut them into the existing cloth.

 

I'm still keeping the "Stalking Cultists of Commentary" gag idea for those who which to OOCly watch (and commentate in good humor on) RPs.

[FreelanceWizard]

And to our average farmer/city person/not-adventurer, calling magic "white", "black", "pink", "green" or any other color probably just sounds silly. They know conjury, thaumaturgy, arcanima and now astrology, I guess.

 

If they know the terms at all.

 

Per the lore team, the average Eorzean is a fairly accepting but uneducated person. Those who live in a city with a particular magic guild may well have heard the term for it, but it's just as likely they'd call the person a healer or just a mage. They might even prefer a term that matches what the person is socially (priest, Hearer, or tax collector instead of thaumaturge, conjurer, or arcanist, for instance). I suspect only astrologians would be well-known in Ishgard by the name of their Discipline, but only if they practice the Ishgardian school.

 

Consider that even nowadays, some people just refer to doctors as "doctor," not as a particular specialty. The same is true of engineers, programmers, and other highly skilled professionals. The fine details of specialty just aren't relevant to those not in the field. In my mind, if you take that modern tendency and back it out to a much less educated society, you end up with all mages ending up being called "mage," regardless of what exactly they do.

 

EDIT: In the above, I'm referring to the "average Eorzean," not adventurers, nobles, or other well-heeled types.

[Hammersmith]

post

 

Except (and this is where it gets funky) ....conjurers were the ones to make things go boom/zap/whoosh/blamo and thaumaturges were the ones to set the balance of life and death.

 

When the Battle Team at SE decided to add in Jobs, they retconned the old class mechanics, but the lore never really changed. (There were remnants in 1.0 that carried over, but then they did a massive skill retcon for 2.0 and later).

 

So at least in FFXIV, White magics isn't end-all healy goodness while Black magic makes things go boom. ...despite them being treated that way by the battle team which punched the lore team in the jaw.

 

And to our average farmer/city person/not-adventurer, calling magic "white", "black", "pink", "green" or any other color probably just sounds silly. They know conjury, thaumaturgy, arcanima and now astrology, I guess.

 

Interesting!

 

However, what I offered up was more a way around lore to get to how things are and often played.  The chance to use White and Black titles with a social meaning without needing to know the more tricky understandings or have a char who needs to even know about it, kind of like what Freelance said: Most are just known as mages.  Like I said.  My own char's understanding of magic is so basic and based in superstition that "white" and "black" mages are still "assholes with magic"