White Mage Lore

[LiadansWhisper]

Well, didn't expect this to receive so many replies!

 

One of the recurring questions I'm seeing is why/how did the Elementals gift knowledge of white magic to the Padjali if they themselves were not the originators of it? There's a simple explanation in my opinion: White magic is something of an extremely pure form of conjury. In using it, you are communicating with and channeling nature. The Elementals were able to feel that connection - the pervesion and overuse of it being one of the things that led to their flooding Eorzea. They knew that the White held the potential to do good in the right hands, and so could easily have either communicated the ability to the Padjal or led them to the ruins of Amdapor where they could learn from the left behind teachings. The Padjali were also created to act as mediators between the Elementals and the people of Gelmorra - what better way to keep them safe than to have them know one of the most powerful branches of magic ever created, with the fringe benefit of being able to better communicate with them because of it?

 

As per the White/Succor being a naturally occurring force that the Amdapori/whoever simply stumbled upon: That's pretty much exactly what it says on the tin. Like the Black, the White is used by tapping into the aether of the planet. Unlike its' sister art that is inherently destructive in nature, the White - while capable of vast levels of carnage - is used primarily to heal and nurture.

 

And, finally, a random aside: A thing to remember is the spells you come across and use in game are teachings passed down from your Padjal instructors, who had an exceedingly long time to experiment with and hone their craft. What we know as white magic today could simply be the refinement of the art by the Padjali, and not its' original Amdapori incarnation.

 

Except that, as Franz pointed out, Conjury is not Succor, has never been Succor, and didn't exist prior to a few hundred years ago when the Moogles taught Conjury to the Gelmorrans in an effort to bridge the gap between man and elemental.

[AFriendOfAFriend]

Apparently I messed up a simile.

 

I am well aware that the White came first. I did not mean to imply that white magic was conjury, I was comparing the two arts. Both are used to heal and both involve communication with nature - one is just orders of magnitude more powerful and complex.

[LiadansWhisper]

Apparently I messed up a simile.

 

I am well aware that the White came first. I did not mean to imply that white magic was conjury, I was comparing the two arts. Both are used to heal and both involve communication with nature - one is just orders of magnitude more powerful and complex.

 

I'm not sure there's evidence that you can move from Conjury to Succor easily, or at all. Conjury is described as one of the simplest schools of magic to learn - so simple, in fact, that unless you completely can't interact with magic at all, you probably can learn it without too much trouble.  Succor...isn't...that.

 

Though I suppose you could argue that the more advanced techniques of Conjury stray perilously close to Succor, with the possibility that a very gifted or knowledgeable caster might inadvertently tap into Succor, since both Conjury and Succor train you to draw from ambient aether, not your own reserves (though you can absolutely do so with Conjury).

[Gone.]

The art of white magic is an Amdapori creation. It's stated as such in the quest dialog, clear as day. No point in arguing it whatsoever.

 

Elementals stole it for themselves then flooded the city under the guise of supposed abuse. They would later pass it onto the people that would become known as Padjali. Also pretty blatantly stated.

 

Now rather you consider the elementals in the right or question if Amdapor was really in the wrong in the first place... that's one thing. The above, however, really is not debatable in any way. I mean, you can try, but it's a futile effort in purposeful stubbornness.

 

Ain't no one have time for that.

[Sounsyy]

I just want to point out that conjury was discovered "after" White Magic had already come and gone.

 

Yes, I believe it was the Moogles who taught it to the Gelmorrans (though I can't recall whether or not it was at the behest of the Elementals there).

 

It is the moogles who first taught the language of the elementals to man.

It was thanks to their efforts that some learned to hear the elementals, and understand them, as we do now. Even so, it requires arduous training to nurture the gift.

 

That the moogles are our friends and allies is a fact all Gridanian younglings are raised to know. The relationship, however, has not always been one of amity. It was in the age of Gelmorra, back when the elementals did not suffer our presence in the Twelveswood, that the first contact between man and moogle took place. In the beginning, the moogles saw our ancestors as naught but an odious plague, whose existence served only to wake the elementals’ wrath.

 

But through great effort, our forbears eventually succeeded in communing with the elementals, and were permitted to abide in the Twelveswood. And with the elementals’ acceptance came the moogles’ grudging respect—a respect which grew into understanding and, over time, friendship. The moogles have since stood staunchly by our side, helping us to further our intimacy with the forest and its mysteries. Without their wisdom and guidance, I daresay Gridania would not have flourished into the great nation it is today.

[LiadansWhisper]

The art of white magic is an Amdapori creation. It's stated as such in the quest dialog, clear as day. No point in arguing it whatsoever.

 

Elementals stole it for themselves then flooded the city under the guise of supposed abuse. They would later pass it onto the people that would become known as Padjali. Also pretty blatantly stated.

 

Now rather you consider the elementals in the right or question if Amdapor was really in the wrong in the first place... that's one thing. The above, however, really is not debatable in any way. I mean, you can try, but it's a futile effort in purposeful stubbornness.

 

Ain't no one have time for that.

 

There's no indication that the Elementals "stole" anything.

 

And simply because you make a statement doesn't make it true. You can put things out as "fact" all day long, and that still doesn't make them true. Your headcanon is not canon, no matter how much you want it to be.

[Nero]

Pre-emptive mod warning because threads about White Mages tend to get out of hand.

 

Keep it relevant and keep it civil.

 

Sincerely,

the moderators who don't want to wake up to nineteen reported posts tomorrow morning

[ZephyoFire]

*ranger rolls into the trenches*

 

I bring you a snippet that might shine a light on this matter of Lore White Mages;

 

Kan-E-Senna: The Yellow Serpents are in need of succor. Pray send the White Wolves to their aid.

[align=right]~A Mizzenmast Repast, Scene Two (MSQ LV 14)

[align=left]

 

It's a small snippet of information, aye.  But it brings up some questions.  Succor isn't capitalized in this context, but Kan-E-Senna- the primary teacher of White magic- wouldn't just throw around the word casually, especially since she could have said, "The Yellow Serpents are in need of aid." And it would make sense she would dictate where and when the power of white magic would need to be applied in a warzone. So therein exists a potential for people than other then the Warrior(s) of Light to be trained in the ways of White Magic.

 

So this begs the question of what the White Wolves are. And it would be an ironic name if this military force was not affiliated with White Magic.  Certainly not all White Mages, but perhaps a honor guard for those white mages Kan-E Senna has reared to face the might of the Garlean Empire.  What sort of Lore exists about this Gridanian military force?

 

As for pure and corrupted trees of white magic...I'd treat it as White and Black Necromancy in the D&D sense.  Sure, you can apply Necromancy in straight-laced ways (Prettying up and preserving corpses, disposing of bodies to prevent undead plague, communication and succor for the spirits of the deceased, etc), but there are plenty of way to twist the original image of the school of magic, and the balance clearly tips to the latter. Kan-e Senna's school of white magic, then can be seen as its 'Pure' form, granting life unto life. The corrupted school of white magic, then, might be granting life unto matter...or twisting together a heinous bastardization of life.[/align]

[/align]

[LiadansWhisper]

*ranger rolls into the trenches*

 

I bring you a snippet that might shine a light on this matter of Lore White Mages;

 

Kan-E-Senna: The Yellow Serpents are in need of succor. Pray send the White Wolves to their aid.

[align=right]~A Mizzenmast Repast, Scene Two (MSQ LV 14)

[align=left]

 

It's a small snippet of information, aye.  But it brings up some questions.  Succor isn't capitalized in this context, but Kan-E-Senna- the primary teacher of White magic- wouldn't just throw around the word casually, especially since she could have said, "The Yellow Serpents are in need of aid." And it would make sense she would dictate where and when the power of white magic would need to be applied in a warzone. So therein exists a potential for people than other then the Warrior(s) of Light to be trained in the ways of White Magic.

 

So this begs the question of what the White Wolves are. And it would be an ironic name if this military force was not affiliated with White Magic.  Certainly not all White Mages, but perhaps a honor guard for those white mages Kan-E Senna has reared to face the might of the Garlean Empire.  What sort of Lore exists about this Gridanian military force?

 

As for pure and corrupted trees of white magic...I'd treat it as White and Black Necromancy in the D&D sense.  Sure, you can apply Necromancy in straight-laced ways (Prettying up and preserving corpses, disposing of bodies to prevent undead plague, communication and succor for the spirits of the deceased, etc), but there are plenty of way to twist the original image of the school of magic, and the balance clearly tips to the latter. [/align]

[/align]

 

 

Unfortunately, you're operating on some incorrect assumptions.  The White Wolves is a unit of the Order of the Twin Adders that is formed primarily of unblooded youths (i.e. it's like ROTC).  It's supervised by both the Wood Wailers and the Gods' Quiver.

 

Source:

 

 

Additionally, succor has a meaning beyond White Magic, though there is a reason why White Magic is called Succor (and it has to do with the meaning of the word).  Succor is defined as "assistance and support in times of hardship or stress" and "give assistance or aid to."

 

You may have noticed at this point that NPCs in this game never use the simple word when they can use a more complicated/flowery term.

[Oli!]

So I ran the dungeon in question for fun today, and I noticed some stuff regarding the White Magestones that were mentioned earlier, along with some other stuff. Keep in mind that some of this is just theorycrafting.

 

The White Magestones are not yellow, I can confirm. They're glowing blue in a black casing.

 

The area that they are within is the "Sanctum of Dreams." This, in turn, is housed inside the "Tower of White." The latter suggests rather plainly to me that this was the places that the White Mages called home, considering that they were more or less an order within the old society, while the former suggests to me that this area may have been their innermost chamber; just as the Conjurer's guild is primarily a place of quiet for meditation, so too, I believe, was the Sanctum of Dreams before its takeover by voidsent.

 

In addition to housing the White Magestones, the Sanctum of Dreams is also oddly clear of any sort of corruption as is seen all over the outside of the city. It permeates the city so thoroughly that it seems rather unlikely that it wouldn't be able to find its way inside as well. I personally feel that the reason why it may not have been able to would be due to a concentration of healing magic within the Tower of White.

 

Within the Sanctum of Dreams are two other sublocations. The stairway you make your way down is the "Arrested Darkness," while the central area where the final boss is encountered is the "Waking Nightmare," a name in stark contrast to the name of the entire area. Both of these names would suggest to me that the Sanctum of Dreams was a location that was taken and perverted to serve the opposite of its intended purpose, a place of rest and healing. As a result, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that the White Magestones are using, or were otherwise created by, White Magic.

 

It's also worth noting that the exit to the Sanctum of Dreams is marked as leading to "Central Amdapor;" although I don't know how involved they were in the use of Black Magic, it is clear that they held White Magic in much higher regard. The fact that they would build a temple to it in the center of their city speaks volumes.

 

Dungeon maps for reference:

 

 

 

 

[Berrod Armstrong]

"The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born. "

 

 

 

 

There is gravity in that line. It STRONGLY IMPLIES, due to no mention of the elementals in it, that it was the people that developed/discovered it. NOW -- I don't know. I have no idea. I have no clue. But for my own unbiased reading comprehension, that's what I see, and probably what a lot of others see.

 

 

The thing is, it's...badly composed. Later on, when the passage mentioned the flood ("So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake. "), there's no mention of the elementals THERE either -- and if I'm not mistaken, it was the elementals who caused this flood. Further down, the passage mentions the elementals outright, and continues to do so ("The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well."). That's where my uncertainty comes from. Is the lack of mention of the elementals in that first given line because of bad composition/establishment, or is it on purpose because the elementals were not actually the ones who 'gifted' the magic? It's a bit frustrating!

 

 

As it is, it seeeeems to me that the Amdapori discovered it, abused it, got wiped out for it, and the intervening elementals withheld what knowledge there was of it to distribute to those they chose/deemed worthy. 

 

 

But yeah, I dunno. I really don't, and I'd love for the lore team to clarify if they can. 

[Xzenivar]

. Later on, when the passage mentioned the flood ("So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake. "), there's no mention of the elementals THERE either -- and if I'm not mistaken, it was the elementals who caused this flood.

 

Your post got me thinking about it, but suppose the elementals really didn't have anything to do with flooding the world, and they just took credit for the act to better establish their power? It's not unlike something a terrorist organization would do.

[Berrod Armstrong]

. Later on, when the passage mentioned the flood ("So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake. "), there's no mention of the elementals THERE either -- and if I'm not mistaken, it was the elementals who caused this flood.

 

 

Your post got me thinking about it, but suppose the elementals really didn't have anything to do with flooding the world, and they just took credit for the act to better establish their power?  It's not unlike something a terrorist organization would do.

Oh I think it's pretty established that they did! I was just too lazy to find the source. >.<

[Desu Nee]

Never trust the elementals.

 

 

Never.

[Sounsyy]

. Later on, when the passage mentioned the flood ("So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake. "), there's no mention of the elementals THERE either -- and if I'm not mistaken, it was the elementals who caused this flood.

 

 

Your post got me thinking about it, but suppose the elementals really didn't have anything to do with flooding the world, and they just took credit for the act to better establish their power?  It's not unlike something a terrorist organization would do.

Oh I think it's pretty established that they did! I was just too lazy to find the source. >.<

 

All in game lore text on the subject of Amdapor has already been provided for discussion use in this earlier post. If there are texts I have missed (short of quoting the entire 1.0 whm questline, which Im considering...) please lemme know and I will add it to the compilation.

[Sylentmana]

 

 

As it is, it seeeeems to me that the Amdapori discovered it, abused it, got wiped out for it, and the intervening elementals withheld what knowledge there was of it to distribute to those they chose/deemed worthy. 

 

 

This was my interpretation as well and, in my opinion, is seems this is most likely the case. It is also what I'm going with until Word of God says otherwise.

[LiadansWhisper]

Your post got me thinking about it, but suppose the elementals really didn't have anything to do with flooding the world, and they just took credit for the act to better establish their power?  It's not unlike something a terrorist organization would do.

 

So we're equating sentient wind chimes with terrorist organizations now?

 

Just to be clear, people keep treating what are effectively sentient immortal tornadoes as of they should have human morals, human values, and human motivations.

 

Guys. Seriously. They're sentient immortal tornadoes.

 

When a tornado hits your house, it's not being malicious. It's not being a dick. It's being a tornado. You were just in the way.

 

People keep attributing these byzantine plots and motivations to the elementals, and seem to refuse to acknowledge that we're dealing with completely inhuman demigods. It reminds me of some of the Furies in Forgotten Realms, but I digress.

 

A certain lore kitty pointed out to me last night that the Elementals have existed at least 10000 years, and during that time have watched mankind repeatedly come within inches of destroying the world. But people expect them to just trust us, because, hey, we're different! 

 

Right. I'm sure no one's ever told them that before.

 

And further, while we're talking about how the elementals "stole" White Magic, let's shed a tear for those poor bastards on other continents who had to die because the Amdapori couldn't stop coming up with new and innovative ways to blow each other up. Cuz Eorzea wasn't the only place that flooded, y'all. 

 

This rant has been brought to you by Android, Gmail, and my lack of caffeine. <3

 

Edited because my phone doesn't let me delete things so there was a mis-applied quote tree.

[Berrod Armstrong]

. Later on, when the passage mentioned the flood ("So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake. "), there's no mention of the elementals THERE either -- and if I'm not mistaken, it was the elementals who caused this flood.

 

 

Your post got me thinking about it, but suppose the elementals really didn't have anything to do with flooding the world, and they just took credit for the act to better establish their power?  It's not unlike something a terrorist organization would do.

 

So we're equating sentient wind chimes with terrorist organizations now?

 

Just to be clear, people keep treating what are effectively sentient immortal tornadoes as of they should have human morals, human values, and human motivations.

 

Guys. Seriously. They're sentient immortal tornadoes.

 

When a tornado hits your house, it's not being malicious. It's not being a dick. It's being a tornado. You were just in the way.

 

People keep attributing these byzantine plots and motivations to the elementals, and seem to refuse to acknowledge that we're dealing with completely inhuman demigods. It reminds me of some of the Furies in Forgotten Realms, but I digress.

 

A certain lore kitty pointed out to me last night that the Elementals have existed at least 10000 years, and during that time have watched mankind repeatedly come within inches of destroying the world. But people expect them to just trust us, because, hey, we're different! 

 

Right. I'm sure no one's ever told them that before.

 

And further, while we're talking about how the elementals "stole" White Magic, let's shed a tear for those poor bastards on other continents who had to die because the Amdapori couldn't stop coming up with new and innovative ways to blow each other up. Cuz Eorzea wasn't the only place that flooded, y'all. 

 

This rant has been brought to you by Android, Gmail, and my lack of caffeine. <3

I'm nooooot sure where all this is coming from, but my post was intended to point out the poor composition of one of the more crucial passages in the whole issue. 

 

I believe what the person responding to my post is saying is that -- some bad mages may have flooded the world and then the elementals took credit for it. The flood. Not white magic. I replied that I believe that it was in fact the elementals who caused the flood. Neither of us mentioned anything about the elementals stealing white magic, the guy was literally tin foil hatting -- which can be fun in a discussion, if not inaccurate.

 

I'll say again, for the point of contention regarding whether white magic was gifted to/discovered by/created by the Amdapori, the quote from Raya-O is composed in a way that makes it unclear. Therefore, I remain unsure and leave myself open to all possibilities  until the lore team clarifies. 

 

Please clarify, lore team!

[Kage]

. Later on, when the passage mentioned the flood ("So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake. "), there's no mention of the elementals THERE either -- and if I'm not mistaken, it was the elementals who caused this flood.

 

 

Your post got me thinking about it, but suppose the elementals really didn't have anything to do with flooding the world, and they just took credit for the act to better establish their power?  It's not unlike something a terrorist organization would do.

Oh I think it's pretty established that they did! I was just too lazy to find the source. >.<

 

All in game lore text on the subject of Amdapor has already been provided for discussion use in this earlier post. If there are texts I have missed (short of quoting the entire 1.0 whm questline, which Im considering...) please lemme know and I will add it to the compilation.

Curious, but how much of the white mage lore comes from in-game books/texts or word of mouth? It seems like a lot of it is more word of mouth (in context of the game) then say... established by something. For example the Lamia assumption from Sastash HM that is misinformation vs Lamia being examples of manufactured weapons by the Allagan.

 

How much -could- be "deliberate misinformation" by the devs?

[Berrod Armstrong]

. Later on, when the passage mentioned the flood ("So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake. "), there's no mention of the elementals THERE either -- and if I'm not mistaken, it was the elementals who caused this flood.

 

 

Your post got me thinking about it, but suppose the elementals really didn't have anything to do with flooding the world, and they just took credit for the act to better establish their power?  It's not unlike something a terrorist organization would do.

Oh I think it's pretty established that they did! I was just too lazy to find the source. >.<

 

All in game lore text on the subject of Amdapor has already been provided for discussion use in this earlier post. If there are texts I have missed (short of quoting the entire 1.0 whm questline, which Im considering...) please lemme know and I will add it to the compilation.

Curious, but how much of the white mage lore comes from in-game books/texts or word of mouth? It seems like a lot of it is more word of mouth (in context of the game) then say... established by something. For example the Lamia assumption from Sastash HM that is misinformation vs Lamia being examples of manufactured weapons by the Allagan.

 

How much -could- be "deliberate misinformation" by the devs?

*Puts on tin foil hat* 

 

They're withholding information because of critical story points in the next expansion that features white magic and elementals. They elementals get mad and flood the world again.

 

NEW FEATURE! UNDERWATER ZONES AND COMBAT!

 

Ala Mhigo pushed back to 5.0

[LiadansWhisper]

Berrod, I replied the way I did because I'm on my phone and too lazy to get out of bed. It wasn't really to you specifically, more in response to the whole, "the elementals just made that shit up" and some previous comments.  I'd quote you again in response but that quote tree is murder. I'll try to edit out your post when I turn my computer on.

 

Also, lore stuff was percolating from a chat with Lore Kitty .

 

Edit: Me and my auto correct are going to have a Come-to-Jesus-Talk.

[Berrod Armstrong]

Berrod, I replied the way I did because I'm on my phone and too lazy to get out of bed. It wasn't really to you specifically, more in response to the whole, "the elementals just made that shit up" and some previous comments.  I'd quote you again in response but that quote tree I'd murder. I'll try to edit out your post when I turn my computer on.

 

Also, lore stuff was percolating from a chat with Lore Kitty .

Oh! Oh don't worry about it, there's no problem. I was just really unsure and seeking to clarify.

[Kage]

Curious, but how much of the white mage lore comes from in-game books/texts or word of mouth?

How much -could- be "deliberate misinformation" by the devs?

*Puts on tin foil hat* 

 

They're withholding information because of critical story points in the next expansion that features white magic and elementals. They elementals get mad and flood the world again.

Elementals just want the world as they see it. Controlling powerful magic and thought, one of the easiest ways to do so.

 

Koji Fox has already said that they've deliberately misinformed to make the world more realistic in a way. If all our information is through word of mouth, left mostly by the 'victors' the Elementals who want the world to continue in whatever image they want, is it possible?

 

It's just some things to think about. NPC word isn't infallible.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

Curious, but how much of the white mage lore comes from in-game books/texts or word of mouth? It seems like a lot of it is more word of mouth (in context of the game) then say... established by something. For example the Lamia assumption from Sastash HM that is misinformation vs Lamia being examples of manufactured weapons by the Allagan.

 

How much -could- be "deliberate misinformation" by the devs?

 

It's possible, though these devs have less of a history of putting out contradictory lore than, say, Bethesda (in the Elder Scrolls world, pretty much everything you encounter is suspect because history is written by the victors, and they blatantly lie repeatedly).

 

But even texts themselves could be contradictory.  Consider the last set of the Hildebrand questline (I'm guessing you did it!).  History is written by the victors, even in Eorzea.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

Elementals just want the world as they see it. Controlling powerful magic and thought, one of the easiest ways to do so.

 

Elementals just want their one little patch of land that was given to them by Nophica.  Seriously, that's all they care about.  If blowing up the rest of the world didn't impact their little forest, I'm not sure they'd give two shits.  They're withholding White Magic because the last time Mortals got a hold of it, they almost destroyed the world.  Again.  For like, the sixth time.

 

Koji Fox has already said that they've deliberately misinformed to make the world more realistic in a way. If all our information is through word of mouth, left mostly by the 'victors' the Elementals who want the world to continue in whatever image they want, is it possible?

 

It's just some things to think about. NPC word isn't infallible.

 

It's not infallible, but I'm not sure there's a case that the Elementals have ill/malicious intentions with regards to this.  The Elementals for sure want the world to continue, and they for sure think that Mortals are a problem that threatens the continuance of the world...but given the history of mortal man, can you really disagree with them?