BLM/THM Inquiry

[Mikoto]

Anyone have information about BLM/THM losing body parts or getting rid of them to give them a boost of power/aethereal manipulation? I can't seem to find anything in 2.0 but I heard 1.0 touched upon this very subject in greater detail.

[Sounsyy]

Unfortunately, no. Someone else asked me the same question, citing this reddit post on the topic. However, after going back and looking through my own notes and searching for several hours across the lore sites, I wasn't able to find a single reference to Thaumaturges or Black Mages replacing their eye(s) with materia.

 

That's not to say this information isn't correct, but whatever source text originally hinted at this mutilation has been lost with 1.0. Unless, someone has the transcriptions to the 1.0 versions of the "International Relations," "Gearing Up," "The Voidgate Breathes Gloomy," and "Always Bet on Black" laying around so I can keep digging?

[Gargand]

I'd replace my eye with a level V materia.

[Mikoto]

Unfortunately, no. Someone else asked me the same question, citing this reddit post on the topic. However, after going back and looking through my own notes and searching for several hours across the lore sites, I wasn't able to find a single reference to Thaumaturges or Black Mages replacing their eye(s) with materia.

 

That's not to say this information isn't correct, but whatever source text originally hinted at this mutilation has been lost with 1.0. Unless, someone has the transcriptions to the 1.0 versions of the "International Relations," "Gearing Up," "The Voidgate Breathes Gloomy," and "Always Bet on Black" laying around so I can keep digging?

 

I'm going to see if I can find these missions on youtube and watch through them. Hopefully someone has them up!

 

EDIT:

Will be posting up the videos as I run into them for future reference.

 

International Relations

cd3dAIANMGQ

 

The Voidgate Breathes Gloomy

zjNuvoMaRY4

[Sounsyy]

I'm going to see if I can find these missions on youtube and watch through them. Hopefully someone has them up!

 

Ashiee!! Aww I forgot about her. =( Went through those and didn't see any mention of it. I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't part of the "Small Talk" option with Lalai at or prior to Voidgate Breathes Gloomy. I know after you defeat Ququruka her small talk changes to this:

 

I...I was foolish. I craved guidance. A mentor. I see that now. I never should have believed Ququruka's words. Even now' date=' I cannot say what of Ququruka's words is truth, and what is falsehood. But you are indeed the one destined to guide this power. Of that alone am I certain.[/quote']

 

But there's no record of what her small talk option says prior to Always Bet on Black. That would explain why I have no recollection of the materia thing cuz I just went through and did the quests. Blehh.

[Ashe]

I would take all 1.0 class lore (not regular lore like the history of Hydaelyn) with a grain of salt and here is why: 

 

1)  Most players don't play by this lore because most people are not 1.0 players. Yes, some know the 1.0 class lore but majority do not and majority will have no idea what you're talking about.

 

2)  The lore team working on FFXIV now retconned most of the classes. Black Magic currently isn't really life or death magic as it was in 1.0, but it's more of a technique of using thaumaturgy that takes aether from the earth, destroying the land, and making your own magic stupidly powerful. If used incorrectly, you risk spontaneous combustion (as seen in 3.0).

 

3)  The 1.0 THMs were much much much darker than the ones now. I feel like it would be difficult to RP with that explanation of the magic. If you go around RPing that kind of special snowflake who harms themselves for the sake of their magic, people may be turned away.

 

I RP a black mage who does not cast correctly and, therefore, doesn't cast often at all. 

My advice would be don't go further than replacing your eye with materia or something minor that isn't like, "My character has an ironworks magiteck arm after cutting it off and sacrificing it to the void to make his magic the most powerful ever." or something....either way, I wold take the 1.0 class lore with a grain of salt 'cause it is 90% defunct.

[LiadansWhisper]

I would take all 1.0 class lore (not regular lore like the history of Hydaelyn) with a grain of salt and here is why: 

 

1)  Most players don't play by this lore because most people are not 1.0 players. Yes, some know the 1.0 class lore but majority do not and majority will have no idea what you're talking about.

 

2)  The lore team working on FFXIV now retconned most of the classes. Black Magic currently isn't really life or death magic as it was in 1.0, but it's more of a technique of using thaumaturgy that takes aether from the earth, destroying the land, and making your own magic stupidly powerful. If used incorrectly, you risk spontaneous combustion (as seen in 3.0).

 

3)  The 1.0 THMs were much much much darker than the ones now. I feel like it would be difficult to RP with that explanation of the magic. If you go around RPing that kind of special snowflake who harms themselves for the sake of their magic, people may be turned away.

 

I RP a black mage who does not cast correctly and, therefore, doesn't cast often at all. 

My advice would be don't go further than replacing your eye with materia or something minor that isn't like, "My character has an ironworks magiteck arm after cutting it off and sacrificing it to the void to make his magic the most powerful ever." or something....either way, I wold take the 1.0 class lore with a grain of salt 'cause it is 90% defunct.

 

As far as I know, the devs haven't retconned any of the base class lore (i.e. Thaumaturges, Conjurers, etc).

[Oli!]

They mean the Job lore.

[LiadansWhisper]

They mean the Job lore.

 

He was talking about Thaumaturges in his post.

[Warren Castille]

Mechanics =/= Lore.

 

Black Magic isn't Thaumaturgy, it's a technique and it's entirely fucking illegal. People openly talking about being black mages are worse than anyone RPing with lost limbs for power, because one of these is defined in-lore as being cause for arrest/death/horrible things and the other exists as a plausible grey area.

 

Also: Convert. Sacrifice HP for magical power.

 

And Another Thing Edit:

 

Posted below Oli, ignore

[Oli!]

They mean the Job lore.

 

He was talking about Thaumaturges in his post.

 

It was mentioned, but their main point about the retconning of 1.0 Jobs is still widely correct.

[Ashe]

Hehehehehe "his post" (I'm a girl)...maybe I should change my forum name/image to my female character >>

Anywhoooo

I said in my post that Black Magic is a technique that is like THM. 

 

I don't mind people RPing a black mage. I RP one who doesn't show himself as a mage at all because....duh >> That and Black Magic is dangerous to use in general...wouldn't recommend doing it without 1) keeping it a secret and 2) ICly having a soul stone for it 'cause if you don't and you use it too much/wrong you will just blow yourself up (literally).

 

Welllllll if you're gonna be a thm and do that, the guild will probably oust you to say the least.

I think that a lot of did change from what I remember from 1.0 

The type of magic that they use in this game is different.

 

Oli finally agrees with what I say! >> But yes, BLMs were retconned. Anyone who doesn't see that is living on another planet~~

[Warren Castille]

1.0 class lore stands just fine for the Ul'dah classes. 1.0 Pugilists were not trained by Holyfist, they were finger-and-knee-breakers working for the gambling den on the strip. 1.0 Gladiators were not a mercenary band of disciplined swords, they were legitimately-fighting-in-the-Coliseum-like-Raubahn gladiators. It's entirely reasonable that the Ossuary, inundated with adventurers as they would have been since 1.x, have changed their schooling and tutelage to be more widespread.

 

Think about it: A gaggle of powerful mages with power over LIFE AND DEATH would not share those secrets with the masses. The Ossuary used to be where the rich and powerful were interred. Adventurers don't give a damn about that (and it means less people take a cut of the sweet, sweet payday). The 1.0 lore works just fine if you're someone who played back then, because those legacy characters would have literally learned differently than these damn kids people starting now.

 

Edit:

 

2) The lore team working on FFXIV now retconned most of the classes. Black Magic currently isn't really life or death magic as it was in 1.0, but it's more of a technique of using thaumaturgy that takes aether from the earth, destroying the land, and making your own magic stupidly powerful. If used incorrectly, you risk spontaneous combustion (as seen in 3.0).

 

Full stop. Black Magic didn't exist until after the Thaumaturge redesign. It's not a retcon if the thing you're talking about never existed in the first place.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

It was mentioned, but their main point about the retconning of 1.0 Jobs is still widely correct.

 

I never said that it wasn't.  I was very, very, very specific that I was referring only to Classes, and not to Jobs.

[Warren Castille]

I don't mind people RPing a black mage. I RP one who doesn't show himself as a mage at all because....duh >> That and Black Magic is dangerous to use in general...wouldn't recommend doing it without 1) keeping it a secret and 2) ICly having a soul stone for it 'cause if you don't and you use it too much/wrong you will just blow yourself up (literally).

 

Sorry, your wiki lead me to believe otherwise.

 

Black Mage Asheloux is, through and through, a Black Mage. He is very open about his interests in the void and darker magics. While it’s technically shunned upon, Asheloux embraces it, and he is very good at it.

 

Ain't shunned upon. Illegal, with immediate consequences upon discovery.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

They mean the Job lore.

 

He was talking about Thaumaturges in his post.

 

It was mentioned, but their main point about the retconning of 1.0 Jobs is still widely correct.

 

1.0 classes were mechanically retconned between patches 1.18 to 1.20 to better fit the battle team's ideas about how the game should play. This was also when the game introduced the job system, writing in brand new lore™. You can read about the massive 1.20 changes here. (Basically, they decided that FFXIV's classes should act more "traditional" and the battle system was adjusted to reflect this. CNJ became a healer and lost most elemental magic, THM stopped being about astral and umbral magic of life and death and became fire, ice and lightning. Other classes were adjusted, but these were the two where the lore and mechanics became the most separated.)

[Ashe]

I don't mind people RPing a black mage. I RP one who doesn't show himself as a mage at all because....duh >> That and Black Magic is dangerous to use in general...wouldn't recommend doing it without 1) keeping it a secret and 2) ICly having a soul stone for it 'cause if you don't and you use it too much/wrong you will just blow yourself up (literally).

 

Sorry, your wiki lead me to believe otherwise.

 

Black Mage Asheloux is, through and through, a Black Mage. He is very open about his interests in the void and darker magics. While it’s technically shunned upon, Asheloux embraces it, and he is very good at it.

 

Ain't shunned upon. Illegal, with immediate consequences upon discovery.

Sorry my wiki needs mad updating and need a lot of re-writing and retconning since I wrote it months ago without knowing the lore as well as I do now and haven't found time to go back and read it.

Most people I RP with know my characters Black Mage-ness is not the main part of his character. I changed a lot because I know that black magic is illegal. My character is mostly ICly just a researcher of Allagan tech...and and anddddd uses "Doman Magic" (/cough ninjutsu) for combat.

I had to change a lot of stuff because I was gonna kill him off anyways and then decided against it >>

 

Thanks for reminding me since I was working on Zeph's wiki so much~ I'll get to it once I'm done with a ton of work I have to get done~

[Oli!]

1.0 class lore stands just fine for the Ul'dah classes. 1.0 Pugilists were not trained by Holyfist, they were finger-and-knee-breakers working for the gambling den on the strip. 1.0 Gladiators were not a mercenary band of disciplined swords, they were legitimately-fighting-in-the-Coliseum-like-Raubahn gladiators. It's entirely reasonable that the Ossuary, inundated with adventurers as they would have been since 1.x, have changed their schooling and tutelage to be more widespread.

 

Think about it: A gaggle of powerful mages with power over LIFE AND DEATH would not share those secrets with the masses. The Ossuary used to be where the rich and powerful were interred. Adventurers don't give a damn about that (and it means less people take a cut of the sweet, sweet payday). The 1.0 lore works just fine if you're someone who played back then, because those legacy characters would have literally learned differently than these damn kids people starting now.

 

I'm sure Classes are fine, but there was still some retconning done to Jobs (WHMs originally controlled all elements, including those now belonging to THMs / BLMs, time was turned back on the progression of Erik and Widargelt, etc.). The confusion seems to be stemming from the use of the word "classes" to refer to what we would have called Jobs, most likely because using Classes to refer to everything is common in other games.

[Oli!]

 

 

It was mentioned, but their main point about the retconning of 1.0 Jobs is still widely correct.

 

I never said that it wasn't.  I was very, very, very specific that I was referring only to Classes, and not to Jobs.

 

Oh, cool. Yeah, I think there was some confusion there then.

[Warren Castille]

 

Sorry my wiki needs mad updating and need a lot of re-writing and retconing since I wrote it months ago without knowing the lore as well as I do now~

 

S'cool. Mine's woefully out of date, too.

 

Also, leading some fact to THM lore being different because of new leadership (like PUG and GLD), there's the teensy fact that the former THM guild leader is the lalafell you fight at the end of Halatali HM.

 

The Ossuary's got new teachers, like everywhere else. It's fine to play with the old methods, but most people genuinely won't know about them, IC or OOC, so it's something of a nostalgia trip for me to see them. It's not so much a hard retcon as it is a change of pace in the five year gap.

[Ashe]

Is it bad that I refused to make a THM over a BLM 'cause of the THM guild being a punch of dumb as horse poop Lalafells? >> 

Someone in my FC's wiki says he has the echo and I was like "OMG YOUR CHARACTER HAS THE ECHO WHY DIDN'T I KNOW THIS AFTER RUNNING AN FC WITH YOU FOR A YEAR?!" and he's like "...I changed my mind once I realized it's not that big of a thing for RP." So yeah....I'm betting a lot of people's wikis have crazy things on theirs that....don't make sense now xPP

 

And yeah, that was my main point. A good portion of players didn't play 1.0 or...were like me and gave up after a week 'cause it was broken (like legit, broken).  Edit: My game was also moldy Japanese version >>

I'm prolly just using the word wrong. 

That's my big issue with 1.0-based content RP. Not everyone went and rewatched other's play through 1.0 (and if it sounds like I have no life that I did....I had a lot of free time while I was searching for a job >>)

[Warren Castille]

And yeah, that was my main point. A good portion of players didn't play 1.0 or...were like me and gave up after a week 'cause it was broken (like legit, broken).  Edit: My game was also moldy Japanese version >>

I'm prolly just using the word wrong. 

That's my big issue with 1.0-based content RP. Not everyone went and rewatched other's play through 1.0 (and if it sounds like I have no life that I did....I had a lot of free time while I was searching for a job >>)

 

You're not wrong, 1.0 was laughably broken. The game simply didn't work. That aside, though, why should the people who did stick it out be forced to change their canon backstories or lore because other people didn't like it? It's not as if Square came in and said "This never happened" or anything. The lore panel that commented on it basically agreed that the lore and the mechanics don't mesh, but the lore was still valid. I think. SOUNSYY DO THE THING YOU DO.

 

If you didn't play 1.0, and you come across someone RPing with 1.0 abilities, is that really so horrible? Warren's backstory has him affiliated with the Coliseum in the background, should I change that because the GLD guild doesn't do that anymore? It's one thing where, say, White Mage got forcibly addressed, but the THM changes aren't nearly as bad. Further, they don't disprove that people don't sacrifice bits of themselves for power, or that it isn't a feasible change. There's so many gaps and spaces in what we're shown, what was shown, and what actually got changed or swapped out.

 

People are going to RP what they RP, and someone using the Umbral/Astral spells isn't a bad thing. No less than people mix-and-matching class powers to do whatever they want.

[Mikoto]

Mechanics =/= Lore.

 

Black Magic isn't Thaumaturgy, it's a technique and it's entirely fucking illegal. People openly talking about being black mages are worse than anyone RPing with lost limbs for power, because one of these is defined in-lore as being cause for arrest/death/horrible things and the other exists as a plausible grey area.

 

Also: Convert. Sacrifice HP for magical power.

 

And Another Thing Edit:

 

Posted below Oli, ignore

 

I personally agree with the bolded part. I'm taking extra measure in making sure that being a THM is the main thing about the character and being a BLM is a side thing that people might run into if they are lucky or manage to find him in the act. He is doing the full duties of a THM that they usually have done back in 1.0 [Working with Funerals, taking care of the dead, giving blessings of Nald'thal to those that seek him out, etc] instead of focusing on the pure blasty blasty death part like the new leadership that he finds himself disagreeing with.

 

1.0 THM was all about sacrifice to gain something out of it, especially with the healing where they drained their own HP to heal others. My character was taught the 2.0 THM ways but is being drawn into the teachings of the 1.0 THM through older tomes but he will never be to the same level as someone who was actually training during the 1.0 days.

[Ashe]

Nope, it's not horrible. I'm saying that it may confuse the crap out of someone else.

Then again...considering 90% of the RP I see going on about petty quarrels in the QS when I afk there, prolly will never be a problem ahahah >>

 

I don't RP in taverns so maybe that's why I think differently. I do a lot of IC exploration and dungeons and lore/research-based type RP (yay IC excuses to run Fractal as my character so he can be like a kid in a candy store 'cause the library wasn't enough >>) 

So if I see someone pull a move out from their class/job that legit doesn't exist, like  /emote casts a move that seems like it came straight out of WoW or another game and flies in the air like a majestic fucking eagle.

....then I get confused xPP

[Warren Castille]

So if I see someone pull a move out from their class/job that legit doesn't exist, like  /emote casts a move that seems like it came straight out of WoW or another game and flies in the air like a majestic fucking eagle.

....then I get confused xPP

 

How did you feel about Ilberd imbuing his sword with glowy red power and flying through the air in the climax of 2.55?