Lore Question: Soulstones and how to acquire them.

[LiadansWhisper]

I tend to treat soulstones kinda like how the Zodiac Stones are in Final Fantasy Tactics (minus the whole transforming into eldritch abominations thing...). The opening attract screen of FFT vaguely describes that the zodiac stones in that game are stones that have the memories and power of past heroes (and villains) "etched" into them. As a result, anyone who forms a pact with a stone basically could draw on its power for good or for evil. The wrong person using a stone would draw out its raw power triggering a transformation in those people externally into the form of the Lucavi (see: Wiegraf turning into Velius/Belias). On the other hand a person with strong enough good intentions could draw out the good side of the stones, such as when Rafa's brother Malak was nearly killed and the stone saved him at Rafa's plea to save her brother.

 

This may seem like a far cry from soulstones in FFT but it works on the same principles in some of the stories though it's more of a case of the soulstones/powers of the soulstones overwhelming NPCs rather than NPCs being inherently evil in some cases. The whole idea of White Magic being abused in the 5th Astral Era and the resulting Umbral era is a good example of the power being used for wrong and the Warrior questline and trying to control the Inner Beast is a good example of the power overwhelming a user. The instruction/memories on using the power is there, but the effects on a person can depend on how they decide to use it to varying effects.

 

Well, you could also say that the whole reason why some of these disciplines are quite literally buried in the "sands of time," as it were, is because there is a huge potential for them to be abused.  I think that they took that concept from FFT, but dropped it into the jobs themselves, for the most part.  It's not the soulstone people are abusing so much as the power they have been taught.

[mongi291]

 

 

It seems to be required for Dark Knights too. I mean, the main character starts hearing the "voice in the abyss" and "Fray" is reanimated only after he touched the soulstone.

I mean, if you didn't need a soulstone, everyone would be a Dark Knight.

 

No, they wouldn't, because they still would need to be trained.

 

The only reason why the soulstone is "required" for Black Mages is that they literally burn from the inside out if they channel black magic without one.

 

That's it.  You could easily make a case for not using a soulstone in pretty much every other situation.  What makes a Paladin a Paladin isn't the soulstone - it's the training.  What makes a White Mage a White Mage isn't the soulstone - it's the training and access to Succor.

 

Etc.

Yes, but from what we've seen, you still need a Soulstone to use the powers of a Dark Knight. It's not the same as Black Mage, but with the WoL awakening its dark side upon touching the Soulstone, and Sidurgu telling you "to surrender your weapon and Soul Crystal" if you don't want to deal with the consequences of being a Dark Knight, it seems that without a Soulstone you can't be a Dark Knight.

That's just my opinion anyway. I wouldn't argue with someone if they were a Dark Knight without Soulstone, but I decided to have Isaulde have one to avoid problems with the lore in the future (we didn't know black magic required a Soulstone until 3.0, after all).

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

Yes, but from what we've seen, you still need a Soulstone to use the powers of a Dark Knight. It's not the same as Black Mage, but with the WoL awakening its dark side upon touching the Soulstone, and Sidurgu telling you "to surrender your weapon and Soul Crystal" if you don't want to deal with the consequences of being a Dark Knight, it seems that without a Soulstone you can't be a Dark Knight.

That's just my opinion anyway. I wouldn't argue with someone if they were a Dark Knight without Soulstone, but I decided to have Isaulde have one to avoid problems with the lore in the future (we didn't know black magic required a Soulstone until 3.0, after all).

 

I haven't played through the Dark Knight questline, so I don't have any differing opinions to offer on that one.  The only thing I'm trying to say is that unless the questline explicitly tells you that you either a) can't use the power at all without a soulstone or b) you'll just up and die if you don't have one (which I guess is like a, but with more fire and death >.>), then there's no reason to assume that you absolutely must have a soulstone to be a particular job.  And even then, you may very well be able to come up with a really good story reason as to why you, in particular, don't have a soulstone but are still using the abilities inherent to a particular job.

 

Then again, in most cases, acquiring a soulstone for a particular job is not that difficult.

[Coatleque]

[...] and Sidurgu telling you "to surrender your weapon and Soul Crystal" if you don't want to deal with the consequences of being a Dark Knight [...]

 

Or perhaps he didn't want your lack of commitment to tarnish the stone. After all, it is the holder's experiences that seep into the stone for others to learn from. Why would you want the stone of someone who half-arsed it before you?

[SessionZero]

You don't need a soulstone to be a Dark Knight. Fray's spirit shocks awake your darkside but you don't necessarily need the stone to do such. Besides that, your darkside isn't necessarily the source of Dark Knight powers so much as a side effect. The source of a Dark Knight's power is raw emotion.

[Wemrys]

I haven't played through the Dark Knight questline' date=' so I don't have any differing opinions to offer on that one.  The only thing I'm trying to say is that unless the questline [u']explicitly[/u] tells you that you either a) can't use the power at all without a soulstone or b) you'll just up and die if you don't have one (which I guess is like a, but with more fire and death >.>), then there's no reason to assume that you absolutely must have a soulstone to be a particular job.  And even then, you may very well be able to come up with a really good story reason as to why you, in particular, don't have a soulstone but are still using the abilities inherent to a particular job.

 

Then again, in most cases, acquiring a soulstone for a particular job is not that difficult.

 

The Warrior 50-60 questline and a lot of the "you gained a new ability" flavour text implicitly states that the Soulstone is what contains a number of techniques/powers you use and you unlock it via your experiences. The Warrior questline for 50-60 involves unlocking these powers by going out and doing various things or getting into battles with the sideplot being how to tame the Inner Beast.

 

I'm pretty sure since these abilities were completely lost to time and even though you read about them (which is also part of the questline) you couldn't just simply learn to use them that it is pretty much is flatly stating that you need to make the soulstone "remember" through your own experience.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

The Warrior 50-60 questline and a lot of the "you gained a new ability" flavour text implicitly states that the Soulstone is what contains a number of techniques/powers you use and you unlock it via your experiences. The Warrior questline for 50-60 involves unlocking these powers by going out and doing various things or getting into battles with the sideplot being how to tame the Inner Beast.

 

I'm pretty sure since these abilities were completely lost to time and even though you read about them (which is also part of the questline) you couldn't just simply learn to use them. It pretty much is flatly stating that you need to make the soulstone "remember" through your own experience.

 

The White Mage quest does the same, but offers no real explanation for what you're learning other than, "You're using Succor and so you're figuring things out you don't already know."  I think, however, it's important to differentiate from gameplay and lore, especially when little to no information is offered as to how you are learning things.  Additionally, there is nothing to say that you could not have learned those techniques from someone who already knows them.  There is no requirement, at least in the WHM questline, of this being the only way to discover those things.

[Wemrys]

Additionally' date=' there is nothing to say that you could not have learned those techniques from someone who already knows them.  There is no requirement, at least in the WHM questline, of this being the [b']only[/b] way to discover those things.

 

I will relent in the fact that the DRK questline mentions explicitly that there are certain abilities that Sidurgu teaches you and then others that you learn from your soulstone in particular moments where the power of the stone was triggered. I think you may have a point in this sense that the soulstone is a repository of lost arts in some cases, but in others you can learn things from other users.

[LiadansWhisper]

Additionally, there is nothing to say that you could not have learned those techniques from someone who already knows them.  There is no requirement, at least in the WHM questline, of this being the only way to discover those things.

 

I will relent in the fact that the DRK questline mentions explicitly that there are certain abilities that Sidurgu teaches you and then others that you learn from your soulstone in particular moments where the power of the stone was triggered. I think you may have a point in this sense that the soulstone is a repository of lost arts in some cases, but in others you can learn things from other users.

 

I tend to think of them as the "Cliff Notes" version of whatever discipline you are learning.  It's not all that different from, say, Luke Skywalker stumbling through trying to revive the Jedi techniques when he really didn't have anyone to teach him once Obi-Wan and Yoda were dead.

[Martiallais]

Going to throw myself in as someone who doesn't really use soulstones in RP at all. It's training/talent/etc for my characters. But reading over the thread I do like the suggestion Crofte (I believe) mentioned, that they're simply cliff notes.

 

It won't be enough to help you pass a very in depth test, but enough for you to skirt a quiz if needed.

[CrimsonMars]

Going to throw myself in as someone who doesn't really use soulstones in RP at all. It's training/talent/etc for my characters. But reading over the thread I do like the suggestion Crofte (I believe) mentioned, that they're simply cliff notes.

 

It won't be enough to help you pass a very in depth test, but enough for you to skirt a quiz if needed.

 

I'm pretty sure those are needed for those who do use soul stones anyway.

[Momo]

I suppose I am not understanding why most of those who need a soulstone, can't just RP a quest to find one?  As shown here, by many of the people who study their job/class lore well enough, there are ways of obtaining soulstones apart from those shown in the game.

 

Not all adventurers are strong...true enough, however barring being the actual WoL above all others, there is no reason, a learned and hardworking member of each and every job here, cannot work up to, and make themselves worthy of a soulstone, both in terms of IG and OOC goals.

 

Not all soulstones are readily available...true enough as well, however!  We know what soulstones are essentially.  We know what it basically takes to make one from piecing bits of lore together, and each job has been blessed with beyond enough lore to make the search for one much easier than some would make it out to be.  Do your homework, study down to the detail, find that place where Black Mages and their magic were most active, find that black market trader in Ul'dah where all sorts of rare stones can be found, and have your character feel it out. Invite your friends, hire an NPC, hire a PC, to be that person who helps you find or obtain that soulstone you need to continue your work.  We are a creative community in general, and I think it is reasonable to assume, that given a goal, we can work that goal out with enough examination and cross-examination of the facts.

 

For those of you who don't wish to use the soulstone to "upgrade" their class, be the best Gladiator or Ascanist or Thaumaturge you can, and forget the rest.  If you are coming into situations where the kind of power those "upgraded" jobs are needed often, figure out what you think it will take to make your power at a reasonable enough level to handle these sorts of situations (also question your RP a bit, because these sorts of things shouldn't be happening everyday more than likely, though that is dependent on the character of course!) without needing to come into possession of a soulstone, or hell, lose a battle if you have to!

 

~~~~

 

Before anything is said to the contrary, the Gem of Shanotto is a soulstone, one of a kind as much as any soulstone is I suspect, and there is nothing that could stop one from not finding another, if anything, wait until Void Ark comes around, if it is all that it has been rumored to be, my guess is that a reasonable amount of information could be released as to point us in the direction of where Black Mages would be in concentration, or perhaps even have your character travel back into the ruins of the Belah'dia, and find a Black Mage soulstone hidden among the civilization which we believe came from Mhachi!  There are ways to do these things, be creative!

 

I am not 100% certain, but I think White Mages do not need a soulstone to access Succor as we have already established?  Technically, Succor is accessible to those outside the blessings of the Elementals, but it is rather nicer to have it passed down from them.  That being said...Lost City is still as open as ever it was to us, and wouldn't take all that much to RP entrance into, if for the soul purpose of obtaining your own, once lost soulstone from the ancient ruins of the Amdapori, the greatest nation of White Mages that ever lived.

 

And so on and so forth with these sorts of things....

 

~~~~

 

My top suggestion!  Don't be so over embellished with your RP that you are the WoL come again to free us all from the rules of lore, but never be so minimalist as to lock out yourself and everyone around you, from having well thought-out and meaningful RP which is supported by current lore, as with the case of soulstones!

[kharnlol]

You don't need a soulstone to be a Dark Knight. Fray's spirit shocks awake your darkside but you don't necessarily need the stone to do such. Besides that, your darkside isn't necessarily the source of Dark Knight powers so much as a side effect. The source of a Dark Knight's power is raw emotion.

 

It was the interaction of touching the crystal that sparked a connection between you and Fray. However,

 

Fray's spirit was not his spirit and more your inner darkness conjuring his likeness until your inner-self gets fed up with you. To even do this, your inner darkness would have needed the crystal to channel Fray's memories of both his personality and mannerisms. That is why his memories throughout the questline contain a lot of knowledge of what you did in the Main Story despite you having been the only individual at those events. It is a nice throwback to things like Dark Cecil/Kain.

 

 

 

"Not so fast. We need to talk about what's happening to you─what's growing within you, before you get carried away. There's a darkness within us all─nothing dangerous, mind. In fact, it's quite healthy. But the crystal changes you─gives you the power to channel it. Do it without proper training, however, and...well...it might hurt. So go ahead─ask me to teach you. Ask me to instruct you in the ways of the dark knights, and I will. I know you're still worried about that screaming woman, so I'll keep this brief. We dark knights don't care one whit for prestige or pedigree. We are free to follow our hearts─to defend the weak and punish the guilty as we see fit. The law of the land? The authority of a name? These are tools cowards use to escape harm. We have no need of shields figurative or literal. Here─my blade is your blade, my soul crystal your crystal. Go on, take them. You'll need them soon enough."

 

"Well, well, don't you look the part. Ready to harness the darkness within to set the wrong things right. Now, bear in mind that while the darkness gives you strength, that strength comes at cost. That is but one sacrifice, though─and justice demands many. Say a man─a venerable, untouchable man─harms a child in unspeakable ways. He strides through the Hoplon, secure in the knowledge that he is beyond punishment. But for one who cuts down that vile beast as he flaunts his freedom, who knows how many others will suffer? Such was the dilemma faced by a goodly knight long ago. He knew that he would be stripped of his titles and denounced for the deed. The threshold we refuse to cross is a line we drew for ourselves. We fear the consequences, and people suffer for our indecision. Everyone who held that crystal came to conquer that fear, and became who they wanted to be. That knight was the first. Will you be the next? Think on that while we look into the commotion down below."

 

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the aforementioned statement, Fray does give some heavy implications on the necessity of the soul crystal.

 

(I hate that we're calling them soulstones in a game where crystals are relevant, we're not Warlocks from WoW.)

 

 

*Lore Source(s):

(lv. 50) Our End

(lv. 30) Ishgardian Justice

 

 

Edit: Fixed typos and added more lore tidbits. Dark Knight has been my favorite class since Leon Lionheart.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

I am not 100% certain, but I think White Mages do not need a soulstone to access Succor as we have already established?  Technically, Succor is accessible to those outside the blessings of the Elementals, but it is rather nicer to have it passed down from them.  That being said...Lost City is still as open as ever it was to us, and wouldn't take all that much to RP entrance into, if for the soul purpose of obtaining your own, once lost soulstone from the ancient ruins of the Amdapori, the greatest nation of White Mages that ever lived.

 

In the context of the original quest, you don't need the soulstone to do anything.  You get the soulstone because A-Towa-Cant chooses you as the heir to his teaching, which is the entire reason you're allowed to learn White Magic in the first place (think of it as your Passport to Cool Healer Things ).  A-Ruhn and his sister don't want to let you learn White Magic, but the Soulstone convinces Raya-O to give the thumbs up.  A-Ruhn is so pissed off by the Soulstone part that he runs off in a snit.

 

Whenever you learn a new ability, it does say the standard line of "echoes of past White Mages" blah blah, but I honestly don't take that as a statement as proof that you "must" have the SoulStone to learn the magic.

 

Later in the 50-60 questline, the suggestion is made that because you are using your White Magic more and more, and conquering greater difficulties, you're learning to do more and more powerful spells within White Magic, ostensibly thru the Soulstone since Raya-O and A-Ruhn spend most of the questline...I'm not going to give it away, but they're basically useless.

 

However, there's nothing to suggest that you couldn't get the same knowledge from training under a master of the school of magic.  It's just, the soulstone makes it easier and faster.

[Jonexe]

Not sure if it's been covered; but the Summoner, Black Mage, and Scholar quests all deal with you learning techniques recovered from ancient tomes that are being 'deciphered' by your quest giver (with the 50~60 SCH stuff being taught to you directly). That says to me a soul stone isn't required to learn the abilities or use them; outside the implications from the BLM stuff that using Black Magic without the stone will

 

 

kill you.

 

[Coatleque]

Y'shtola probably doesn't have a white mage's soulstone either. I can remember two instances in the MSQ where she shocks many people with the power she's obtained. They are called forbidden magics for a reason. But forbidden =/= forgotten.

[Wemrys]

It seems to me that through various points made in this thread that while soulstones/crystals are a repository of ancient power, they're not so much there to give you the power itself to use the abilities. Rather they act as an aetheric conduit or focus (much like how one needs a focus to do conjury/thaumaturgy/etc) to control or at least focus the power you've come upon into a usable form.

 

The Paladin soulstone seems to draw out holy power within you, Dark Knight focuses your inner darkness into power you can channel through emotion, Warrior gives you power to focus your Inner Beast into a berserker form, White Mage seems to give you enough focus to use Succor, Dragoon allows you to control the blood of the dragon...

 

The caveat that comes with all this new focused power is that you must learn to control it yourself, the soul crystal cannot do it for you, it's merely there so you have the ability to access this power. Fail and any number of bad juju will happen to you depending on what power you're drawing on.

[Wemrys]

Y'shtola probably doesn't have a white mage's soulstone either. I can remember two instances in the MSQ where she shocks many people with the power she's obtained. They are called forbidden magics for a reason. But forbidden =/= forgotten.

 

Y'shtola is a Conjurer not a White Mage so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The forbidden magicks she uses doesn't seem to have anything to do with conjury/the succor at all, rather it's heavily implied it was magick created and forbidden by the Sharlyans. Anyone can use it but the long cast time and devastating effects to both user and opponent show it's something well beyond anything we've been able to cast in any class so far.

 

If someone were using forbidden magicks ICly I would expect it to be a single spell they discovered with devastating consequences for using it and maybe a detailed plot behind it. I'd be a bit worried if someone were flinging around forbidden magicks like common cantrips.

 

(Also apologies for doublepost)

[Austratus]

Reading this thread actually got me to thinking about a RP reason why my character might hold a soulstone.

 

I've always floated around the idea that Kroemgarr was enamored by the stories of an Ishgardian trader, which led him to take up the lance and become an adventurer. Would it be plausible that-- should said merchant be a retired Dragoon with a soulstone on his person-- that the crystal would fragment into a new stone upon sensing Kroemgarr's "worthiness"? 

 

I'm half thinking about the process by which Materia could be born in (original) VII as part of the inspiration.

[V'aleera]

I don't know about whether a soul crystal can function if it fragments, but if you want to play up the quasi-sentient bit you could always have it conveniently fall off of his person One Ring style.

[Ton]

I was trying to find the dialogue text for the Bard soulstone quest. Jehantel the wandering Bard emphasizes the soulstone's past, how it was carried by prior great Bards.

 

There are some correlations in Japanese culture.

 

Gods in Japan are called Kami and their power is linked to a large geographical location, movement, or thing. They can also be focused in small objects such as stones called Shintai. This line sums it up nicely:

 

"Kamidana shintai^[2] are most commonly small circular mirrors, though they can also be stones (magatama), jewels, or some other object with largely symbolic value. The kami within the shintai is often the deity of the local shrine or one particular to the house owner's profession." (Basic Terms of Shinto, Kokugakuin University, Institute for Japanese Culture and Classics, Tokyo 1985)

 

Many Japanese partake in ancestor veneration, which historically is linked to the idea that your ancestors stay very close to the mortal realm, even lending their power to the living, another idea that is pronounced in the Bard questline.

 

These ideas may not be explicit in the soulstone mechanic, but the similarities are enough that I think they played some part, even unconsciously. :bouncy:

[Cynel1]

in my mind i believed that the more you bonded with the soul stone the more memories it gives you.

[Andromeda]

 

The only instance in which they appear to be absolutely required is with Black Mages.  Even then, you might be able to find a way around that with a good enough reason.

Is it possible for arcanists to generate a Fairy spontaneously? I was under the impression that those were tied to Scholar soulstones, so while you could probably easily learn Scholar healing techniques since they're more scientific than BLM or WHM, I don't think an arcanist can create a successful Fairy familiar. Certainly not one that was 'intelligent' like Lily is.

[S'imba]

Well I thought in the first drk quest, the soulstone is what let's a person to fuel their abilities with the darkness that resides within everyone. At least that's what I was pretty sure fray said.

[Warren Castille]

Well I thought in the first drk quest, the soulstone is what let's a person to fuel their abilities with the darkness that resides within everyone. At least that's what I was pretty sure fray said.

 

Given the rest of the DRK quests, Fray's advice and teaching can and should be taken with a grain of salt. A whole shaker, maybe. Post-championship runner-up mountains to be safe.

 

I thought the SCH storyline explains the faeries a bit in detail and something something they were linked to the soulstone but I never did them.

 

As to be expected, Mirke laid the lowdown over here.