In-Game Achievement in Relation to a Character

[Gegenji]

 

How much OOC proof would I have to provide that Chachan's a good smith in this situation? 

 

To me, it is not about proving your skill in terms of your character's story or self-perceived achievements, but rather how you size up to other players claiming that they are the same, or better.

 

If a player claims that their character is a better smith than yours, has specialists in each profession, leveled to maximum, with fully melded gear, and all of the achievements, would you not be more inclined to humor that claim than if they were a level 1 crafter?

 

I would never say that going that extra mile is necessary to RP something, but it certainly does, in my eyes, make the story more believable.

To be absolutely honest, if I knew they leveled the profession because of their character concept I'd respect it more than just the fact that they did it. Though, to be fair, that's kinda part of why I leveled BSM/ARM/LTW all to 60. However, I don't feel like everyone else would need to do that. That's just my personal preference (and I liked the idea of making some gear for people and having them wearing stuff that had Chachan's name on it).

 

And to imply that their character was better just because they got all the crafting gear and over-melded the whole set would strike me as rude. If, instead, they RPed themselves as someone who had been smithing for as long or longer than Chachan, who showed their character was an experienced smith instead of just telling me and pointing at a number and a gear set for their reasoning... then I'd be more likely to roll with it.

[Valence]

I come from Eve Online where actions and deeds are supposed to speak louder than words so... yes, to an extent for me. I have no problem at all acknowledging that someone with a character with high pvp rankings and spending a good amount of time here OOC can transform that easily into an IC thing. They worked their asses to get there. Same for a trading mogul on the market, even if it's harder to prove besides the depth of your pockets...

 

That works for me as long as it doesn't directly conflicts with the lore or the storyline, and makes sense. Falling a raid thing, like Alexander, or whatever, is a Warrior of Light thing. Claiming having done so, even with your first server achievment or whatever, is a no go to me and just reeks of special snowflake. 

 

More generally though, if it doesn't contradict the lore, it always, always boils down as how you portray your character. I'm fine with a 50y old experienced and grizzled warrior with badass skills that will be played accordingly (and 3 dimensionally), but less with a teen pulling the same shit. Same with a trading mogul, or whatever, really. As usual, pull it well in 3 dimensions and you got it. If you can't, then your OOC achievements mean literally naugh.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I spit on eve online mindset that tends to go to the extreme opposite though, which is as long as you don't do much ingame, you are nothing. That's lame.

[111]

So the only time I've ever done that, was back when EX primals dropped, I was one of the early ones to kill all three and get a cool sword.

I wore the sword ICly, and if anyone asked my character said they helped kill Titan after the beast tribes summoned him.

 

If someone said 'no you didn't' whatever that's cool. However I had the sword (which was rare at the time). 

 

I think the whole OOC/IC achievement thing is, use it to add flair to your RP. If your character is supposed to be filthy rich, owning the latest expensive cosmetic gear is a good way to show that. If they're supposed to be a great warrior, having rare weapons or armor helps.

 

However it's only for flair, like, you can't demand people treat you a certain way because you do those things. You can't be like "LOOK AT HOW MUCH GIL I AM, ADMIT MY RICH LALA IS RICHER THAN YOUR RICH LALA" 

 

tldr: Use ooc achievements to add flavor and weight to the concept you're RPing, but don't use it as a certificate of authenticity.

[Aaron]

I mean, if people are gonna think about using the upcoming dueling feature for RP fights then you'd kind of would hope you're good at PvP.

 

Otherwise.... Lol you're gonna have a baaaad time outside of just text.

[Caspar]

I have met and played with RPers who use this approach but suffice to say, their RP is what led me to treat them as accomplished, and it just coincidentally gelled with their interests in game. Though it's on another character, I would actually find it confusing and a bit restrictive if Virara was stapled to my achievements. She's not so strong that my time in Savage Alex and completion of Coil should be considered canon in terms of what she can do and I'd be put off if people decided that for me based upon my Lodestone or w/e.

[Arcian]

(Disclaimer: the assertions below are, of course, just my opinion, and I am perfectly aware of the fact that I'm being quite blunt.)

 

I'm sort of in the same boat as Killeit in the sense that after RPing in WoW for ten years (Sentinels and then WrA), I am absolutely done with people insisting that OOC achievements affect RP.

 

Someone has a server first kill on A8S? Congrats. They have my respect for their skill at PvE. (And I might also ask to talk rotations/optimization with them if they play monk.)

 

They've created an engaging, well-written character that people enjoy interacting with? Congrats. They have my respect for their skill at writing and roleplaying. (And I might also ask to RP with them sometime.)

 

But if someone starts being like, "Oh, my character is the Warrior of Light, and they've killed every Primal and a ton of Garleans and saved the world about a dozen times, and since I've cleared MSQ and have all the achievements and all the classes capped and all the content cleared, that automatically makes them inherently believable if they start asserting this IC," then I'm just gonna shake my head and walk away.

 

In my opinion, cleared content does not automatically translate to a more realistic/believable/respectable character. If someone's claiming to have done something huge (or multiple things) IC that's canonically ascribed to a deliberately vague and undefined hero, I'm inclined to be deeply skeptical and want to avoid them no matter what content they've done, because it feels like powergaming dressed up in a fancy outfit.

 

I've met RPers who are truly, hilariously shitty at endgame content. I've also met raiders who are truly, hilariously shitty writers. Skill at one facet of the game does not automatically translate to skill or "owed" respect in another.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to play a formidable, yet believable character? Then they can show that through writing instead of leaning on EX/Savage clears and expecting the rest of the server to accept it without question.

 

TL;DR - I care less about credibility than I do plausibility.

[Aaron]

But like, what if say a group is running a dungeon ICly and one guy goes "Hey, want to see who's the better fighter? Kill that creature before I kill mine."

 

Granted for controversy, similar ilvls and all both are of the same job (dps/healer/tank)

[Arcian]

But like, what if say a group is running a dungeon ICly and one guy goes "Hey, want to see who's the better fighter? Kill that creature before I kill mine."

 

Granted for controversy, similar ilvls and all both are of the same job (dps/healer/tank)

 

I think there's a difference between two people ICly seeing who can gank marmots faster and claiming that since you have Seph EX or whatever on farm, people should accept that your character is automatically better than theirs in combat IC.

 

Not the best example, but you get what I'm saying.

[Valence]

 

If a player claims that their character is a better smith than yours, has specialists in each profession, leveled to maximum, with fully melded gear, and all of the achievements, would you not be more inclined to humor that claim than if they were a level 1 crafter?

 

 

I wouldn't personally. It's all about writing skills and believability and story and... what makes up roleplay.

 

And I'm not really sure I want to get into RP when it comes to epeen character contests honestly. I guess I'm in RP circles where I don't have to worry too much about that. Especially since I'm rather hardcore into the mundane, average characters I want into my RP.

 

No, I just think that having those OOC achievements behind can just paint a more consistent background. It gives weight to things.

 

You know, a bit how you can perfectly RP you have a gun in your hands, but you don't have leveled machinist. Well, when you have, you actually show the gun in your hands. It adds no more credibility nor validates anything more. But it adds immersion.

 

To me it's a bit more similar to what glamour is to RP. It's another form of glamour for more immersion.

[Caspar]

As I said before, I don't mind people claiming whatever as long as they can back it up. I've had people claim to be the best combat fighter and then do some weird sprint 20 yards, bounce off a wall, then sprint 20 yards back kind of wrestling rip-off move and armbar someone in the ground. They were using rolls, so of course the attack connected, but I prefer far more realism in my combat. Flashy fights are how you usually get your ass kicked, and I would expect someone that claims to be the top however percent to know that kind of thing. This may sound a tad cynical, but I don't really have that much faith in people these days.

 

Thank you for your clarification, though! Some of that may have been going on during my time there, but I honestly don't recall when I quit and how long I was around.

I agree with almost everything you said except for this, as it is a tangent but I think it's unfair to another player to hold stylistic interest and a more cinematic RP style against them ICly. It seems sort of arbitrary when people are hurling fireballs about honestly. You and I might not like the aesthetic of flashy combat, to vastly different degrees mind you, but I won't discredit IC achievment based on my taste as my view of the setting doesn't hold universal recognition.

[Warren Castille]

I think these sorts of things can help but they're fairly situational. WoW's got a lot of wiggle room in that context: There's no specific main character for each expansion and it's widely acknowledged that bands of adventurers are the ones doing the slaying of mostly everyone. I think it's kind of neat for server continuity to have such things.

 

...that just doesn't lend itself so well to FFXIV. Since we're given a canonical hero who has done everything in the Warrior of Light, it's a lot more tricky to establish these sorts of things. For non-canonical stuff I think it's kind of neat: As someone who PVPed a lot in WoW I took some pride in wearing my gear when it was relevant to RP.

 

...buuuut that's tricky even in XIV, since PVP is tied directly to adventuring companies established with the Grand Companies. So if you were good at, say, Wolves' Den, it would also mean you're a ranking officer/soldier of some degree in your city-state. As far as the lore is concerned (I think!) the only way into the war games is through the Companies.

[111]

I think these sorts of things can help but they're fairly situational. WoW's got a lot of wiggle room in that context: There's no specific main character for each expansion and it's widely acknowledged that bands of adventurers are the ones doing the slaying of mostly everyone. I think it's kind of neat for server continuity to have such things.

 

...that just doesn't lend itself so well to FFXIV. Since we're given a canonical hero who has done everything in the Warrior of Light, it's a lot more tricky to establish these sorts of things. For non-canonical stuff I think it's kind of neat: As someone who PVPed a lot in WoW I took some pride in wearing my gear when it was relevant to RP.

 

...buuuut that's tricky even in XIV, since PVP is tied directly to adventuring companies established with the Grand Companies. So if you were good at, say, Wolves' Den, it would also mean you're a ranking officer/soldier of some degree in your city-state. As far as the lore is concerned (I think!) the only way into the war games is through the Companies.

 

Duel grindstone when?

[Valence]

I actually like that FF totally separates the story and the rest. They establish that it's the WoL and that prevents me to see everyone claiming to be the ones that fell X or Y story archnemesis. Doing so means that they say outright they are the WoL or similar. Can't say in most cases "no I was just part of a random band of adventurers".

[Aaron]

I think these sorts of things can help but they're fairly situational. WoW's got a lot of wiggle room in that context: There's no specific main character for each expansion and it's widely acknowledged that bands of adventurers are the ones doing the slaying of mostly everyone. I think it's kind of neat for server continuity to have such things.

 

...that just doesn't lend itself so well to FFXIV. Since we're given a canonical hero who has done everything in the Warrior of Light, it's a lot more tricky to establish these sorts of things. For non-canonical stuff I think it's kind of neat: As someone who PVPed a lot in WoW I took some pride in wearing my gear when it was relevant to RP.

 

...buuuut that's tricky even in XIV, since PVP is tied directly to adventuring companies established with the Grand Companies. So if you were good at, say, Wolves' Den, it would also mean you're a ranking officer/soldier of some degree in your city-state. As far as the lore is concerned (I think!) the only way into the war games is through the Companies.

The Feast and PvP iirc in general is just adventurers beating the shot out of each other in glory of their GC or just to beat people up.

[Gunduin]

A thought in this is something I did in Warcraft. While my in-game achieves, or at least minor ones, may have SOME impact on my character, they never defined them. IE: My paladin was IN the battle for Icecrown, but was he in teh front group? The people that actually took down Arthas? Nah. He helped hold back the scourge and forge a path, but never saw the throne room. He can tell stories for days about what the interior looked like during the fight, but couldn't give one detail of what that main fight looked like from experience. 

 

On the other hand, my rogue has the achievement for taking down Onyxia, but ICly was nowhere near her cave when the group went in to confront her. 

 

If someone came up to me and told me they were in that main group against Ony, I'd take it with a grain of salt seeing as I wasn't "there" to see who was or was not in the main battle force.

[Warren Castille]

The Feast and PvP iirc in general is just adventurers beating the shot out of each other in glory of their GC or just to beat people up.

 

Wolves' Den and Frontlines are definitely GC-related, but I don't remember what the story for Feast is. They're in your journal as GC quests.

[Renault Delumiere]

...that just doesn't lend itself so well to FFXIV. Since we're given a canonical hero who has done everything in the Warrior of Light, it's a lot more tricky to establish these sorts of things. 

 

...buuuut that's tricky even in XIV, since PVP is tied directly to adventuring companies established with the Grand Companies. So if you were good at, say, Wolves' Den, it would also mean you're a ranking officer/soldier of some degree in your city-state. As far as the lore is concerned (I think!) the only way into the war games is through the Companies.

 

First, thank you for your reply, as it shed some light on the situation which ultimately led to me seeing and understanding exactly what I was proposing in my OP. It had really skipped my mind that things like: slaying Bahamut Prime, quelling the Illuminati threat within Alexander, and other related content...Is all handled by the WoL canonically. 

 

In my opinion, I think there is some leeway in terms of Primals, certain dungeons(which don't house major lore characters) and the like, since those beasts are able to be killed over and over. ( Hell, the story of extreme mode primals is just that. The worshipers simply re summoned the primal. )

 

Second, the arena PVP game modes are not tied to grand company. You are simply given a team (Fangs or Claws), which alternates each game.

[Warren Castille]

...that just doesn't lend itself so well to FFXIV. Since we're given a canonical hero who has done everything in the Warrior of Light, it's a lot more tricky to establish these sorts of things. 

 

...buuuut that's tricky even in XIV, since PVP is tied directly to adventuring companies established with the Grand Companies. So if you were good at, say, Wolves' Den, it would also mean you're a ranking officer/soldier of some degree in your city-state. As far as the lore is concerned (I think!) the only way into the war games is through the Companies.

 

First, thank you for your reply, as it shed some light on the situation which ultimately led to me seeing and understanding exactly what I was proposing in my OP. It had really skipped my mind that things like: slaying Bahamut Prime, quelling the Illuminati threat within Alexander, and other related content...Is all handled by the WoL canonically. 

 

In my opinion, I think there is some leeway in terms of Primals, certain dungeons(which don't house major lore characters) and the like, since those beasts are able to be killed over and over. ( Hell, the story of extreme mode primals is just that. The worshipers simply re summoned the primal. )

 

Second, the arena PVP game modes are not tied to grand company. You are simply given a team (Fangs or Claws), which alternates each game.

 

Soooort of. In the case of Primals that have the power to Temper/Drown/Whatever it is strongly implied you're not walking out of the fight if you're not empowered through some means similar to the Warrior of Light: It doesn't have to be the main character but you have to be otherwise-blessed to not die during the encounter.

 

PVP is a weird space. We know the Warrior of Light is recruited into it specifically because of his rank with a Grand Company, but is that everyone? Well, maybe? Again, it's implied: You unlock these modes through Grand Company NPCs looking for a few good men to go out and do battle, and the Frontlines lore is a war-game to keep Carteneau occupied so no one goes digging for Omega.

 

Buuuuut a lot of this is being inferred. The lore book will hopefully shed a lot of light into this, but that's still months out.

[Aaron]

Bah I wish this game had a pokemon styles battle system lol

 

"People ask me why I wear armor all the time, I tell them it's a wall for my inner frustration"

 

*Warren Castille has challenged you to battle!*

[Zelmanov]

I am a believer that in game achievements do not result in RP justification because and possibly only because the current storyline as is speaks of one Warrior of light and only one. He is solely responsible for a ton of stuff and so things like "Nidhogg SLayer" cannot work because you are then claiming WOL status.

 

and unlike warcraft where its a bunch of named characters and you play effectively as the infantry units in a campaign, this is a much more classical "One hero does everything" Story which does not lend itself for equal opportunity and inclusiveness.

 

 

The battle to kill the lich king is massive, I can see why people want inclusion.

 

Its why I will not fault someone for saying they were at the steps of faith, at cartenau (though that's a little hairy) or at the operation which allowed the WOL to enter Castrum Meridanum.

 

but saying you were the one who punted titan in the nads? Or Ravana? Yeah, no thanks, keep it to your rp group who have agreed to such stipulations

[111]

I am a believer that in game achievements do not result in RP justification because and possibly only because the current storyline as is speaks of one Warrior of light and only one. He is solely responsible for a ton of stuff and so things like "Nidhogg SLayer" cannot work because you are then claiming WOL status.

 

and unlike warcraft where its a bunch of named characters and you play effectively as the infantry units in a campaign, this is a much more classical "One hero does everything" Story which does not lend itself for equal opportunity and inclusiveness.

 

 

The battle to kill the lich king is massive, I can see why people want inclusion.

 

Its why I will not fault someone for saying they were at the steps of faith, at cartenau (though that's a little hairy) or at the operation which allowed the WOL to enter Castrum Meridanum.

 

but saying you were the one who punted titan in the nads? Or Ravana? Yeah, no thanks, keep it to your rp group who have agreed to such stipulations

 

To be fair the primals come back constantly. Presumably some of the time the regular adventurers, GCs, and mercenaries of Eorzea have to kill them.

 

Titan has probably been killed a few dozen times, for example. Who's to say you weren't there for one of them?

[Kilieit]

Being present at the death of a Primal is one of the few... no, in fact, I think it's the only part of my OOC achievements that made it into my RP Balmung storyline. It was a weaker manifestation, and he still had to get his ass rescued, but he was there.

 

It's implied that the strength of the manifestation depends on how many crystals are involved and (minor spoilers) what exact ritual was used (end spoilers), so it's probable that the beast tribes can't always scrounge up the resources to summon an EX version of their resident god.

[Valence]

I am a believer that in game achievements do not result in RP justification because and possibly only because the current storyline as is speaks of one Warrior of light and only one. He is solely responsible for a ton of stuff and so things like "Nidhogg SLayer" cannot work because you are then claiming WOL status.

 

and unlike warcraft where its a bunch of named characters and you play effectively as the infantry units in a campaign, this is a much more classical "One hero does everything" Story which does not lend itself for equal opportunity and inclusiveness.

 

 

The battle to kill the lich king is massive, I can see why people want inclusion.

 

Its why I will not fault someone for saying they were at the steps of faith, at cartenau (though that's a little hairy) or at the operation which allowed the WOL to enter Castrum Meridanum.

 

but saying you were the one who punted titan in the nads? Or Ravana? Yeah, no thanks, keep it to your rp group who have agreed to such stipulations

 

To be fair the primals come back constantly. Presumably some of the time the regular adventurers, GCs, and mercenaries of Eorzea have to kill them.

 

Titan has probably been killed a few dozen times, for example. Who's to say you weren't there for one of them?

 

That's where interpretation comes in and I actually believe that's not totally true. The way it's stated has always been ambiguous at best in the story, and they seem to say that while beast tribes constantly prove to be a threat with their primals, they actually go to great lenghts to show you that it's not something that happens on a regular basis considering the humongous amount of crystals required just to summon them and keep them fed, and it seems pretty clear that the first time the WoL has to deal with primals, they weren't summoned for quite a few years since the last time was Titan and Leviathan for example, slayed by the company of heroes.

 

So no, that's not something that seems to happen a lot. It's hard to tell though since the SMN class quests seem to be more lenient with that and tell a slightly different story.

 

We also have to keep in mind that it has been only a bit more than 6 years since the disaster at Mor Dhona and primals weren't really there before that, all emprisoned into the allagan contraption beneath the lake (which also seems to point that even if every instance of a primal is different and unique, you can't sommon several at once? Which would make the number of possible invocations even lower).

 

tl;dr: matter of interpretation, but I see that somewhere in between of the "summoned once and killed once by the WoL" and "summoned every week and killed by random people". The former is wrong by the lore, and the later sounds ridiculous since eorzea would have been depleted of all its population since long, considering that tempering usually gets rid of half of their enemies anyway.

 

I also subscribe to the "less is more impressive when it happens" view on that, story wise.

[Skae]

 

Soooort of. In the case of Primals that have the power to Temper/Drown/Whatever it is strongly implied you're not walking out of the fight if you're not empowered through some means similar to the Warrior of Light: It doesn't have to be the main character but you have to be otherwise-blessed to not die during the encounter.

 

Not quite. We know, through the MSQ, that the Company of Heroes beat both Titan and Leviathan in the past - and I don't remember anything that suggests that any of them has the Echo or anything like that.

IIRC we are also told that the Immortal Flames beat back Ifrit on a semi-regular basis - albeit usually at a heavy cost.

[Warren Castille]

I don't have the sources offhand but I think I recall the Company of Heroes being utterly decimated in those wins: hundreds of fighters with a handful of survivors. If you don't have the Echo, it tends to go poorly.