Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature.

[Kallera]

I'm trying to work on my character's(Kallera's)backstory. One gap that I have however has to do with her job and the nature of Darkside. As a Dark Knight, I tend to have her hide her weapon and glamour her armor to look as far away from a knight as possible, she is still one as far as her skills go.

 

1. In what sort of ways does a dark knight become one? Is communing a method to advance their learning of their art?

2. Is Darkside one common impulse of violence, or does it manifest in differently in different people like a Jungian shadow? Would Kallera's Darkside be different than another Dark Knight's?

3. iirc, "Frey" was seen as a rare occurance by Sidurgu, how is control over the Darkside usually attained? Is it again a matter of psychology between the user and their impulses?

4. I take it a habit of using Darkside for the effects would be a nono, right?

[Warren Castille]

In order, to the best of my knowledge:

 

1) Dark Knights are basically The Punisher, located in Ishgard and focusing on combating the abuse of authority from corrupt clergy members. Where they stand after 3.4 is currently unknown.

 

2) Darkside is much like the Sith usage of the force, if you're a Star Wars geek: It's using strong emotion to power abilities. The DRK storylines reveal/imply that caring emotions are ultimately better suited than negative ones.

 

3) We're only ever given the Warrior of Light's perspective on how things work. Sidurgu and Fray aren't the every-man experience other Dark Knights have gone through. Your own idea is probably just fine.

 

Worth mentioning as well: We have no idea how many, varied, or distinct the other DRKs are. The storyline gives us absolutely no insight into the organization as a whole, if it can even be called a such. Someone with a lore book might know more here.

 

4) Keeping that on in RP varies from "not a big deal" to "completely obnoxious." Personal taste applies, but to my knowledge the general feeling is "please don't idle in RP environs with this on." It doesn't really serve a purpose.

[Yssen]

The lore book does clarify a few things. 

 

1. There are no real clarification details on how people become Dark Knights, just that the first wave of them were inspired by Trypaniel the Unshod's actions in 960 of the 6th Astral Era. Tryphaniel is credited as the first Dark Knight, and the one who started the Dark Knights' crusade for the common folk in Ishgard. There are no real details on how he tapped into his Darkside or when (though it was likely in his trial by combat over killing a clergy member for molesting a child or shortly after when he was stripped of his knighthood). There were just accusations that he had "fallen to darkness." The entry for Fray talks about both book bound and physical aspects to Dark Knight training, and other bits of the Dark Knight entry confirm that DRKs have a lot of caster in them as well as just swinging a GS around. 

 

2. Ones actual Darkside does appear to be very personal. Fueled differently for each person. The only common descriptors for Darkness and Darkside are that they are stygian, shadowy, and, entropic in nature. There is also mention that the Dark Knight does have to maintain control of their own Darkside or face a form of backlash (described as being entropic energies) for failing to maintain control. Fear and wrath are the most common emotional fuels, but we know there are other emotions that can fuel it from the DRK quests.

 

3. Again, no real clarifying details. I thing this speaks to the personal nature of tapping into and controlling one's Darkside, so your best bet is coming up with your own drives and such.

 

4. Covered a little above, but so long as you remain in control over your own power, you are all good. Backlash if you don't remain in control. It should be noted that Darkness, Darkside, and Dark Arts are all considered to be "forbidden" techniques. They are also all distinct things. It is mentioned that Dark Arts were not even invented until several centuries after the early Dark Knights were running around.

 

As Warren mentioned, there is not an overarching organization of Dark Knights that has been mentioned in game and the lore book does not clarify that much. Master and Student relationships are talked about, but nothing past it. This leads me to the conclusion that the Dark Knights are more of a loose fellowship/confederation of individuals, rather than a formal organized group. They really don't go into what they are doing past 3.4 either. As long as there are commoners being oppressed somewhere, you are likely to find a Dark Knights springing up, though. 

 

I hope this has been helpful, yar.

[Kilieit]

Because I'm bored and trying to wake up / warm up before doing some actual real writing, here is a transcript of the lore book's double-page spread on Dark Knights.

 

The pious Ishgardian clergy guide the flock, and the devout knights protect the weak. Yet even the holiest of men succumb to the darkest of temptations. None dare to administer justice to these sacrosanct elite residing outside the reach of the law. Who, then, defends the feeble from the transgressions of those meant to guide and protect them? A valiant few take up arms to defend the downtrodden, and not even the holy priests and knights can escape their judgement. Pariahs in their own land, they are known by many as "dark knights".

 

 

In the year 960 of the Sixth Astral Era, a commoner by the name of Tryphaniel the Unshod was granted knighthood for acts of valour upon the battlefield. A young man with an unwavering sense of justice, Tryphaniel's desire to champion the cause of the lowborn was undiluted by his entrance into the privileged world of the nobility. It was this same moral fortitude that bid him trail after a clergyman after witnessing the robed figure drag a squirming child from the alleys of the Brume. The knight's suspicions were confirmed when he entered the secluded domicile of the priest only to find him committing unspeakable acts upon the body of the abducted waif. Noticing his unexpected visitor, the clergyman attempted to explain away his vile actions as a form of "exorcism", but the incensed Tryphaniel drew his sword without hesitation, and answered the babbled excuses with a single, fatal blow.

 

Rather than praise his heroism, however, the knight's peers condemned him for slaying a holy member of the church. He was forced to defend his life in a trial by combat, but though he survived, it was decreed that he would be stripped of his knighthood. Unflinching in the face of accusations that he had fallen to darkness, Tryphaniel roared that he would gladly surrender a title that required him to turn a blind eye to a child's suffering. He cast aside his crested shield - the symbol of his station - and continued his crusade for the commonfolk with no thought or fear for what others held taboo. His righteous deed inspired some courageous few to embrace the path of the forbidden, and thus the legacy of the dark knight was born.

 

 

Chaos Armour

Passed down through generations of dark knights, this antique set of armour was forged of Ishgardian steel and appears sheathed in a faint nimbus of shadow. While the plates may once have shone like well-polished iron, years of blood spatter have dulled the metal's natural gleam.

 

Deathbringer

Some two centuries ago, a troubled smith crafted this weapon as the price for a darkn knight to punish a terrible injustice. The knight accepted the payment, and found a fitting name for the greatsword after baptising its blade in the lifeblood of the guilty.

 

Komukirimaru

This great katana was forged by a Doman artisan at the behest of Rowena's House of Splendors. Said to resemble a weapon described in Far Eastern legend - the divine sword that cut down the monstrous spider-spirit "tsuchigumo" - the blade becomes thicker as it nears the tip, giving the weapon a top-heavy balance. In the hands of a master swordsman, however, this awkward weight can be exploited to generate swings powerful enough to cleave a giant's thigh. According to the weaponsmith Seika, certain improvements could further enhance the quality of this already devastating weapon.

 

Dainslaif

Crafted in the Churning Mists at a time when peace prevailed between Dravanian and man, this greatsword and the dragon-like design of its crossguard is representative of that harmonious age. Dainslaif's creation predates the appearance of dark knights by some centuries, and was originally commissioned for an orthodox knight of high standing. Intended for the purpose of monster slaying, the weapon's blade was forged with sufficient resilience to endure repeated blows against thick bones and dense hide.

 

 

Dark Force (Limit Break)

By infusing a vast well of aether with her own inner darkness, the dark knight forms arcane barriers of impregnable midnight. The sight of liquid shadow pouring from a sky torn open by this otherwise benevolent technique is commonly described as "unsettling".

 

Hard Slash

A sweeping slash, followed by a punishing upward slice. The most fundamental attack in a dark knight's repertoire, this technique originated from a now-antiquated style of knightly combat.

 

Unleash

Releasing his pain and rage upon nearby foes, the dark knight manifests an inky black circle of spikes on the ground around him. All those caught in its thorns are struck by unreasoning terror, and an irresistible need to claw away at its source.

 

Living Dead

This dark art allows the practitioner to continue fighting through the most heinous of injuries, and exhibit an immunity to pain usually attributed to the shambling undead. Though undeniably effective, abandoning one's corporeal form to negative energy in this manner, however briefly, is an act fraught with mortal peril.

 

 

Fray Myste

Race (Clan): Hyur (Midlander)

Gender: Male Age: 25

Epithet: Fray of the Onyx Shade

An orphan of the Brume, a young Fray was set on the dark knight's path when his future master found him plotting revenge over the body of a friend unjustly executed by Holy See officials. Proving an apt and inquisitive student, Fray approached both the book-bound and physical aspects of training with equal eagerness. But it was the desire to aid his master and the fiery Sidurgu in their duties that truly drove the youth to excel. Alongside his volatile fellow disciple, Fray later succeeded in rescuing the maiden Rielle from an undeserved fate, but would himself fall afoul of her pursuers. Dragged before the Tribunal for trial by combat, the dark knight fought with skill and righteous rage only to fall to the dancing blade of the court's champion. It is a testament to Fray's devotion to life and those he left behind that his soul crystal would burn with such undying intensity...

 

Sidurgu Orl

Race (Clan): Au Ra (Xaela)

Gender: Male Age: 26

Epithet: Sidurgu of the Obsidian Heart

As a child, Sidurgu lived with his family in a frontier town of Othard, until their settlement fell under the subjugation of the invading Garlean Empire. Unable to endure the stifling regime of their conquerors, his parents bundled him into a cart along with their meager possessions, and fled into the wilderness soon after his sixth nameday. For five years they wandered, seeking a place to belong, before their journeys eventually brought them to Eorzea's shores. Like many of their ace, they found themselves drawn to the planes of Coerthas, where they hoped to adopt the nomadic ways of their ancestors... but neither fate nor the Ishgardians were kind to the Au Ra.

Moulded by a life of tragedy, the displaced Xaela found himself well suited to the mantle of a dark knight. Now bereft of family, master, and fellow apprentice, Sidurgu wears his stern demeanour like a suit of armour, impenetrable to all perhaps but his young charge, Rielle.

 

 

Darkness

Arising from the fear and wrath within the dark knight's own soul, this shadowy flame feeds greedily on her body's aether, its stygian fires coursing through her blade and fuelling her eldritch arts. But as ever, such power comes with a price: should the dark knight lose control over this darkness, she will be consumed in a backlash of entropic energies. (Transcriber's note: The image labelled "Darkness" is of a player using the Darkside ability. This, plus the description, makes me think the DRK 50 trial is a representation of what, in lore terms, using Darkside is like ALL THE TIME. Obviously it's impractical to make it so in gameplay terms.)

 

Dark Arts

Fuelled by the darkness from within, the dark knight employs these techniques to lend an arcane edge to the blows of her greatsword. Though known for their disdain for shields, the fighting style of the earliest dark knights was nevertheless built upon mundane swordplay, and it was not until several centuries later that one of their order first unlocked the secrets of the dark arts.

 

[Sounsyy]

Since Kilieit covered the lore book info, I figured I'd post the DRK lore we get from the questline. Granted, it's not a ton. But I am putting the info behind spoiler tags because does contain some spoilers from the DRK storyline.

 

The pious Ishgardian clergy guide the flock, and the devout knights protect the weak. Yet even the holiest of men succumb to the darkest of temptations. None dare to administer justice to those sacrosanct elite residing outside the reach of the law. Who, then, defends the feeble from the transgressions of those meant to guide and protect them?

 

A valiant few take up arms to defend the downtrodden, and not even the holy priests and knights can escape their judgment. Pariahs in their own land, they are known by many as “dark knights.” These sentinels bear no shields declaring their allegiance. Instead, their greatswords act as beacons to guide the meek through darkness.

 

Say a man─a venerable, untouchable man─harms a child in unspeakable ways. He strides through the Hoplon, secure in the knowledge that he is beyond punishment. But for one who cuts down that vile beast as he flaunts his freedom, who knows how many others will suffer?

 

Such was the dilemma faced by a goodly knight long ago. He knew that he would be stripped of his titles and denounced for the deed. The threshold we refuse to cross is a line we draw for ourselves. We fear the consequences, and people suffer for our indecision. Everyone who held that crystal came to conquer that fear, and became who they wanted to be. That knight was the first. Will you be the next?

 

We dark knights don’t care one whit for prestige or pedigree. We are free to follow our hearts─to defend the weak and punish the guilty as we see fit. The law of the land? The authority of a name? These are tools cowards use to escape harm. We have no need of shields figurative or literal.

 

Given the circumstances under which you embarked upon this path' date=' I fear you do not yet understand what it means to be a dark knight. The first of us bared steel against one of the clergy─this is true. He sacrificed everything he once held dear in the name of justice. So must all who would walk in his footsteps. Mayhap you think this will earn you the love of the common man. You are wrong. To many, you will forever be a criminal─a fiend who sows chaos and discord. These people will listen to the lies of our enemies. They will do their utmost to cast you out─or worse.[/quote']

 

I…I swore an oath. To protect her. That’s what we dark knights do… All that anger' date=' all that rage…born of a fervent desire to protect that which we hold most dear.[/quote']

 

Not so fast. We need to talk about what’s happening to you─what’s growing within you' date=' before you get carried away. There’s a darkness within us all─nothing dangerous, mind. In fact, it’s quite healthy. But the crystal changes you─gives you the power to channel it. Do it without proper training, however, and…well…it might hurt. Now, bear in mind that while the darkness gives you strength, that strength comes at cost. That is but one sacrifice, though─and justice demands many.[/quote']

 

Now' date=' should things turn violent─as I expect they shall─you may need to tap into your darkside to survive. It’s not unlike drawing upon your own aether to weave magic. Fear, pain, rage─that which lies in the deepest depths of our soul makes for a potent fuel. But be warned: burn too much too quickly, and you risk being consumed.[/quote']

 

Ah' date=' yes, the voice. The one you heard when you first touched the crystal. An excellent question, but a difficult one to answer. Some say it is a beacon, guiding the dark knight to her true calling. Whose is it, you ask? Only you can discover that, for each knight must hearken to a different voice. As you grow more accustomed to drawing upon your darkside, you will come to hear it more clearly. …I should mention that, in some instances, the voice is said to be that of another─one whom the dark knight is fated to seek out. If that is the case, you may have a long journey ahead of you…[/quote']

 

A dark knight accepts that she cannot save everyone─that sometimes' date=' she is fortunate just to save herself. Sacrifice, Sounsyy, is to renounce that which binds you. To recognize that which matters─and forsake all that does not.[/quote']

 

The first Ishgardians to encounter Au Ra saw Dravanians. We had fled Garlemald’s armies only to come to a land where we were mistaken for another nation’s mortal enemy. They bared steel and came to kill us…but we did not die so easily. We spared them and sent them on their way…and how do you think they repaid our kindness? With fire and blood! With death for every man, woman, and child!

 

…I was about Rielle’s age when I came to Ishgard. My parents, they… they said we would find a better life here. When the Temple Knights we had shown mercy returned, they let us choose the order in which we would die. That would be their mercy to us, they declared.

 

I watched my parents kneel in the dirt. “Look away,” they said. But I could not. At last, when it was my turn, I knelt and prepared to follow them into death. I closed my eyes…but when I opened them, a man in black stood before me, hand outstretched. And so I took it. “Defend the meek.” “Punish the wicked.” …Mayhap it was all but a convenient excuse to indulge in vengeance. She deserves better than me. But there is no one else…

 

[Rahferu]

I play my character as Drk-type, but it's hard to explain.

I tie his character closely with the struggles seen against the WoL and their 'darkside' that ensues during a few cutscenes on the level 50 Drk quests (iirc.)

Rah also has a split personality, which can be sort of tied to the fact that he is what he and ignores his instincts to cause havoc, do bad things, etc. Basically it's the Rah that is capable of love, reason and compassion for others vs. his instincts to do bad things, tell everyone how he "really" feels, etc.

The drk thing happens to tie very nicely with what I already have going in his giant, far-reaching mess of a backstory. I definitely wouldn't say he's not your stereotypical dark knight perhaps--he uses his inherent dark abilities as a means to protect that which he values most, and he's perpetually at odds with said darker side. I wouldn't say he's a certified dark knight, but he's that way naturally. His is probably different than a regular dark knight's, and that's okay!

In Rah's case, I would even argue that the "darkside" is actually the real Rah, or who he should've been...but for space's sake I won't indulge the rest of the surrounding context for that. :chocobo:

How you want apply that to your character is up to you. But a much of it seems to be turning one's suffering and negativity into a shield to protect others and one's values. I'm very interested to see how you put this together, though! ^^;;

 

Early on--(in like the first drk quest? Maybe second or third.) Fray says not to drink too deeply. that's the part where you run into the orbs that bring your DRK-o-meter and magic resistance up. I basically picked up later on that the darkside needs constant sealing away and taming, because it's always ready to pirate who you are and take the reins."

The darkside seems to be the gnawing negativity that said dark knight suppresses and tames (to a degree.) I do remember the last quest, "the Flame in the Abyss", where Sidurgu basically asks if you have a flame in the abyss--or a purpose to fight (i.e. something or someone to protect, like Rielle and himself.)

 

[Mordred Lyloche]

I personally believe that most classes and jobs have their place in most cultures in the game, as headcanon-y as that might sound? Let me clarify a little bit.

 

For example, R'khan was a member of the Sultansworn. He served dutifully and proudly, without falling to temptation or bribery like some of his peers. When word reached him for how foul his comrades were, he and his companion left the order to join the Immortal Flames.

 

Recently, with the Immortal Flames venturing to Ishgard, both companions happened upon the crude and deplorable sight - of what appeared to be - two dark clad knights slaughtering valiant knights of Ishgard. While the truth was quite the opposite of that. In this example, the Temple Knights can very clearly be made the parallel to that of the Sultansworn of Ul'dah.

 

In the wake of this meeting, R'khan and his companion picked up on the trades that the two darkly clad knights were wielding, helped along by a soul crystal of their fallen comrade and took those skills back to Ul'dah with them. There, they have indeed used their abilities against the corrupt Brass Blades and self-serving Sultansworn that forced them from their roles years before, but they also began to wander the countryside in service to the common people.

 

In such a way, they adapted that of the Dark Knights of Ishgard to becoming something akin to Dark Knights of Ul'dah.

 

Most jobs and classes can be adapted to your character's cultures and what have you. There's very little to suggest that where your character might come from - should they be from Othard or something of the like - couldn't have their own twist on certain techniques and what have you. But I would suggest to use this very conservatively. Don't go too too far with it, but it's a handy tool for character building.

[Kilieit]

I also RP a non-Ishgardian dark knight. My character's soul crystal was given to him by another player-character, who I think was given it by an Ishgardian dark knight. I find it really funny that the Rogues' Guild quest chain and the Dark Knight quest chain were written by the same writer, because they both follow the same "justice in the darkness" trope, haha...

 

Ah... to answer something in the OP I didn't throw my 2p in on yet...

 

I think "darksides" are highly personal (based around the person, their experiences, the experiences held within the specific soul crystal they own, and how they would expect or want such a thing to manifest), and so I think... how you choose to present/shape it is down to you, and what makes sense for your character...

 

As long as it has the same drawbacks as it should, i.e. that it's possible to give onesself over to it too much and cause onesself harm. Remember that at its core, no matter how your character perceives it or describes it to other people, it's an ability that feeds on your character's inner aether to provide strength.

 

My character's Darkside did "take a face/voice", superficially similarly to how Esteem took Fray's, but that's because his predecessor told him to expect it to. It doesn't pull the wool over his eyes in quite the same way Esteem did the Warrior of Light, because my character has an actual real physical mentor to advise him on what it is and what it can (and can't) do. Its apparent "behaviour" is heavily informed/guided by how my character expects it to behave, based on what his mentor has told him and what he expects out of the person whose voice it mimics.

 

If my character's mentor had told my character to expect it to be a feeling in the back of his mind, then it probably would've manifested like that instead. IDK, I think all we can know from canon thus far is that it's highly variable based on circumstance - I try to inform my writing of it in equal parts by what the quests were like, what little I've seen of how other players play the job, and what I think works best for my character and the role I want his soul crystal to play in his overall story.

[John Spiegel]

It would be silly to believe Ishgard is the only place dark knights happen. Sure, yeah. Calling them dark KNIGHTS is a thing in Ishgard because they cast away laws and order and whatnot. But to believe in the entirety of the history of the world that in other lands or individuals didn't drink deep the darkness to protect others. They just weren't called dark knights. Anyways! If you call JJ a knight, he will say he was never no knight. Dark Knight is just a common realm term because of the history Ishgard has with such.. that's what I'm going with anyways...

 

ANYWHO, HERE'S YOUR QUESTIONS!

 

1. In what sort of ways does a dark knight become one? Is communing a method to advance their learning of their art?

One becomes a dark knight by 'scratching that itch' of a whisper in their heart, the soul gem amplified one's inherent abilities as is lore for soul gems. I equate Communion as something similar to the way the Greybeards taught the Dragonborn shouts, through sharing one's knowledge/aetheric imprint of an ability as a means to "light a torch along one's Dark Path"... kind of lets one's mentor or whatever give the student a flavor ability or whatever.

 

2. Is Darkside one common impulse of violence, or does it manifest in differently in different people like a Jungian shadow? Would Kallera's Darkside be different than another Dark Knight's?

The Darkside is merely your internal self-preservation speaking up. It can and should manifest in people differently. The way my group goes about it is that the person's strongest emotion, positive or negative, is the root of the Darkside. Say deep down you are really an angry person, anger always having been the emotion you used to hide how hurt you were. That is amplified by the Darkside and would be a pretty good standard emotion of your Darkside when in your headspace. Say your deepest emotion was sadness, the visual representation of your Darkside could be the standard red-glowey-eyed form PLUS a trail of red from both eyes like tears.

 

 

3. iirc, "Frey" was seen as a rare occurance by Sidurgu, how is control over the Darkside usually attained? Is it again a matter of psychology between the user and their impulses?

I like to think of it as remembering why you became a dark knight as being what helps you gain control (or lose it). Those that travel the path for others safety have that matter of grit to remember to not drink deep the abyss. Those that did it for pure power and selfish reasons might find themselves slipping deeper and deeper out of control..

 

4. I take it a habit of using Darkside for the effects would be a nono, right?

With great power also comes great crux. Having no adverse effects to some power, whether it be having to take time to recharge that photon laser beam or having to eat cookies to recharge magic juice for spellcasting, a good RPer will have some sort of built-in system for this... someone that uses the Darkside constantly is probably getting drunk off power so they'll lose control and whatnot.

 

 

All that being said, everyone does things differently. These are just a short summary of how -I- go about the Dark Knighting.

[Valence]

It would equally be silly to believe that this 'science' must have been discovered somewhere else. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. Why would it have to be by necessity?

[Gegenji]

It would equally be silly to believe that this 'science' must have been discovered somewhere else. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. Why would it have to be by necessity?

I think Ishgard's caste system and whatnot are actually why Dark Knights actually managed to manifest as they did. I mean, you CAN argue that Ul'dah has its own little... hive of scum and villainy thing going... but that's more due to coin being the law rather than an abuse of rank and lineage. Plus, the whole heretic situation.

 

So, I'd actually imagine more of an inversion of the Paladin abilities (Spirits Without, I suppose is an IG example of this?) happening before someone there spontaneously developing similar skills. Or perhaps going more towards a spellsword sort of approach using Thaumaturgic magic. Of course, with the gates open now, there's nothing keeping the DRKs or their knowledge crossing borders.

[Rahferu]

We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.

Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following

I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 

I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

[Mordred Lyloche]

We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.

Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following

I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 

I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

 

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

 

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

 

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

[Rahferu]

We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.

Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following

I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 

I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

 

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

 

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

 

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

 

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 

The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 

The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

 

 

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

[Virella]

We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.

Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following

I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 

I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

 

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

 

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

 

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

 

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 

The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 

The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

 

 

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

 

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Rahferu]

We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.

Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following

I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 

I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

 

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

 

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

 

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

 

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 

The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 

The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

 

 

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

 

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate? The lore book doesn't even talk about every single case in which someone has done something in the manner of a Dark Knight, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen in RP ingame.

Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though.

People speculate all the time, and that doesn't really mean they're making up lore.

I guess technically depending on how you look at it, WE ALL make up lore to a degree when we RP characters.

That's just a matter of personal RP preference. 

 

Furthermore, having different opinions or people wanting to speculate doesn't make them or their conclusions ridiculous, even if you don't agree with them.

[Virella]

We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.

Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following

I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 

I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

 

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

 

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

 

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

 

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 

The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 

The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

 

 

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

 

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate?

Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though.

You don't see Gridanian Ninjas, or Doman Dragoons. Their fighting styles, cultures, religion ect is a very specific things, bound to a history to a specific area. Dark Knight is sadly enough one of those jobs as well.

 

Surely you can speculate on it, but it just as absurd of... for example, Buddhist Monks out of random just popping up in Medieval Europe, without said Buddhist Monks travelling there. Or Western Knights suddenly, with all their rules, believes and habits suddenly out of nowhere popping up in Australia.

 

Lots of the jobs in FFXIV have a specific background to them, and that to me is the beauty of this setting. It isn't a mix match, it is very diverse in cultures, religion ect. All cities, races have their own background, and thus specific fighting styles were created from a certain need, religion or culture. Because why would Limsa need Dragoons for example? They really don't. It is really just the Ishgardians who needed them!

 

Surely, there is evil and oppression everywhere, but it is explicate stated it was a counter measure against the Halonic Church corrupt religious priests. Effect and cause. Take that out of account, and you have a very wonky character in my opinion. You have no base any more for them, and merely the skillset, thus once more, in my opinion, kinda just... ignoring the rich background we have for jobs like that. Use the lore, try to fit your character in, like make them have travelled to Ishgard, got invested with the plight of the people, make them hate the corrupt individuals of the Halonic Church, let them become a Dark Knight.

 

Once more, there's working with the lore, and simply plucking the skillset from said jobs without wanting to make the 'sacrifice' to fit your character in it because you don't happen to like it. And I happen to be one of those roleplayers who simply won't roleplay it instead of breaking it. Because in my opinion, if your character's background doesn't fit with the canon? I see that as lore breaking. But that is once more, my opinion.

 

Anyhow, people should roleplay what they want, and each to their own

[Rahferu]

 

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

 

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

 

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

 

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 

The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 

The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

 

 

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

 

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate?

Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though.

You don't see Gridanian Ninjas, or Doman Dragoons. Their fighting styles, cultures, religion ect is a very specific things, bound to a history to a specific area. Dark Knight is sadly enough one of those jobs as well.

 

Surely you can speculate on it, but it just as absurd of... for example, Buddhist Monks out of random just popping up in Medieval Europe, without said Buddhist Monks travelling there. Or Western Knights suddenly, with all their rules, believes and habits suddenly out of nowhere popping up in Australia.

 

Lots of the jobs in FFXIV have a specific background to them, and that to me is the beauty of this setting. It isn't a mix match, it is very diverse in cultures, religion ect. All cities, races have their own background, and thus specific fighting styles were created from a certain need, religion or culture. Because why would Limsa need Dragoons for example? They really don't. It is really just the Ishgardians who needed them!

 

Surely, there is evil and oppression everywhere, but it is explicate stated it was a counter measure against the Halonic Church corrupt religious priests. Effect and cause. Take that out of account, and you have a very wonky character in my opinion. You have no base any more for them, and merely the skillset, thus once more, in my opinion, kinda just... ignoring the rich background we have for jobs like that. Use the lore, try to fit your character in, like make them have travelled to Ishgard, got invested with the plight of the people, make them hate the corrupt individuals of the Halonic Church, let them become a Dark Knight.

 

Once more, there's working with the lore, and simply plucking the skillset from said jobs without wanting to make the 'sacrifice' to fit your character in it because you don't happen to like it. And I happen to be one of those roleplayers who simply won't roleplay it instead of breaking it. Because in my opinion, if your character's background doesn't fit with the canon? I see that as lore breaking. But that is once more, my opinion.

 

Anyhow, people should roleplay what they want, and each to their own

I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise. 

I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.

 

And having something non-canon means it breaks lore directly. Honestly, if there's nothing in the lore that indicated something isn't possible or doesn't exist, then yeah, I think that it COULD be canon.

People can agree to disagree. But just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it isn't (or couldn't be) possible. I draw the connection BECAUSE I felt as though my character had a sort of "darkside" (which I had in place before I ever knew anything about dark knights tbh) and a similar outline. 

I ended up completing the dark knight questline and liking it BECAUSE I felt it was similar to my character. I felt as though it fit with his backstory and all that.

And I don't see that connection as lore-breaking, either. I am actually considering having him become a bona-fide dark knight because of what I have learned. Potentially. But if people in this community are really so opposed to me drawing these paralells even with reasoning then I won't do it.

 

I'm also kind of new ish to the game. so bear with me.

[Virella]

 

I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise. 

I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.

Where does it say we had people using it before the Ishgardian Dark Knights, let alone people who were found outside Ishgard did? I've done the questline, I'm pretty familiar with Ishgardian lore, but I really can't find any of it. We only know the Dark Knight order eventually got the Dark Arts, much later then the first Dark Knight. That still doesn't however state there were people outside Ishgard who had earlier access to this, or to this at all to begin with.

 

Yes, Warrior and Dark Knight do touch upon emotions, but in a different way, but Dark Knights deal with the Dark Arts, whereas Warriors have their Inner Beast to deal with. Yes it is quite similar, but not exactly the same! I believe, if I'm correct, Warriors have a need to constantly seek out bigger threats to hone their skills for their Inner Beast, whereas for Dark Knights its purely focused on well, religious corruption of the Halonic Church (who knows what they may do come Stormblood though!)

 

Anyhow, I'm still really interested how you came to the conclusion the Dark Arts is used by other than/before Dark Knights came to be. Would you mind sharing me this information? Because I might have missed something then. I, and others have simply told you 'Well, lore states x', but if you can find lore, and not speculation, on it what myself and others might have missed? Awesome, give it to us, I'm very much interested in learning more lore! Not speculation.

[Rahferu]

 

I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise. 

I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.

Where does it say we had people using it before the Ishgardian Dark Knights, let alone people who were found outside Ishgard did? I've done the questline, I'm pretty familiar with Ishgardian lore, but I really can't find any of it. We only know the Dark Knight order eventually got the Dark Arts, much later then the first Dark Knight. That still doesn't however state there were people outside Ishgard who had earlier access to this, or to this at all to begin with.

 

Yes, Warrior and Dark Knight do touch upon emotions, but in a different way, but Dark Knights deal with the Dark Arts, whereas Warriors have their Inner Beast to deal with. Yes it is quite similar, but not exactly the same! I believe, if I'm correct, Warriors have a need to constantly seek out bigger threats to hone their skills for their Inner Beast, whereas for Dark Knights its purely focused on well, religious corruption of the Halonic Church (who knows what they may do come Stormblood though!)

 

Anyhow, I'm still really interested how you came to the conclusion the Dark Arts is used by other than/before Dark Knights came to be. Would you mind sharing me this information? Because I might have missed something then. I, and others have simply told you 'Well, lore states x', but if you can find lore, and not speculation, on it what myself and others might have missed? Awesome, give it to us, I'm very much interested in learning more lore! Not speculation.

 

 

I meant the term "dark arts" in a general manner--i.e., the use of taboo magic or abilities that otherwise pertain to things or motives that might be considered "dark" or "evil." NOT a reference to the actual dark knight job action/ability. 

 

(I wasn't really sure how to word that, but you probably get what I mean. And people using general dark arts of some effect did NOT start in Ishgard. There were people using questionable/evil magic from waaay early on...like the Ascians, for example. I would classify a good deal of their methods and magic as "dark arts" because iirc there are instances where they summon voidsent and whatnot.)

 

I think the term is used a few times in the DRK questline and probably in other questlines too--I recall in the DRK questline too, the broad term of "dark arts" is used, and it probably isn't referencing the job ability (given the context and non-capitalized letters):

 

 

("After learning the nature of your dark arts, the dragon chides you for your foolishness, stating that even the tiny beings who frolic in the mists of Sohm Al know a better way. Sidurgu presses her for details, but the dragon's energy is spent. No more answers will be had. Return to Ishgard and discuss what you have learned." credit: 

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Original_Sins)

 

 

 

 

 

And again, in the posts seen here from the lorebook, I don't see anything saying that there couldn't possibly have been someone adopting practices akin to a Dark Knight's outside of what it says--but it doesn't say for sure that there WAS, either. But because it doesn't seem to flat out say yes or no to this theory either way, leaves room for interpretation.  

 

We have lore about the dark knights themselves, yes. But! Given many of the aspects about the dark knight (such as the desire to protect things, the whole "darkside" thing, etc), I'm inclined to wonder if something like it wasn't around at another time in some form. 

 

I personally would be surprised that the potential or underlying ability for a dark knight's existence in some form didn't at all exist BEFORE people figured out how to control it and name it and such. (To me, that's kind of like Christoper Columbus "discovering" the americas...he didn't really. there were already people living there and doing their thing, etc etc.)

The Dark Knights combated the church with their abilities, yes. BUT WHERE did those abilities COME FROM? How did they get these abilities? There had to have been some kind of source, one would think. That kind of knowledge doesn't just grow on trees, after all.

Maybe I just think outside the box too much, idk. The lore doesn't cover enough imo.

 

 

Also, I am trying to explain WHY I think that could've been a possibility, given other things we do know for sure about the world of FFXIV. 

I am not claiming that I am correct per se--rather, I am stating that the lorebook doesn't seem to say YES or NO to my theory definitively. I'm merely using evidence to support my views.

 

The lorebook is also a supplemental guide as I understand it, and it has SOME information to fill in some of the blanks and answer some of the questions. It's not the entire list of answers to the test, so to speak. There's plenty of stuff the lorebook alone doesn't tell us.

I completely understand the desire to adhere to the book, but when the book doesn't say NO THAT DIDN'T (OR COULDN'T POSSIBLY) HAPPEN, many people are going to interpret it either way.

[Valence]

Actually,

I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

 

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 

The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 

The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

 

 

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

 

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

 

I understand where your reasoning comes from, but I think it's inherently flawed. What it makes true is only that what you evoke is a possibility, not a necessity. You are speaking about the discovery of a science (magical), not about a societal change, fad, meme, or whatever.

 

It would have worked if the premise was instead "dark knights in the sense of champions against injustice probably have risen in most societies, aka batmans". As you say, as long as there is injustice, you will probably have people fighting it pretty much everywhere, in various proportions and scales, but you will always have at least one weirdo doing it. It's a safe assumption, also because we are not talking exactly about a hard scientific discovery.

 

For Dark Arts though... What makes me say it's a science? Because of the name, which is a first hint in itself. And most importantly because of the lore itself: Dark Knights didn't discover the Dark Arts until a long time after their formation. So, saying that Dark Arts is distinct from Dark Knights, even if it's their signature now, is true. Saying that Dark Arts is a possibility out of Ishgard, practiced by people other than Dark Knights, is also true. Maybe with different weapons too, since the blade seems to have very little to do with the Dark Arts themselves.

 

The problem comes when you assert as a fact that it's a necessity. No it's not. It would be like saying that because gunpowder in the 9th century is used by the chinese, that it's used in other parts of the world because everyone is in contact with saltpeter. Well yes, everyone can use it, but not everyone has discovered it at this time. In fact, only the chinese did, as far as we know. Not convinced? We can go with a less specific technics if you want. The wheel? You think that every man culture on the planet discovered it at some early age? Well, actually no. The Incan Empire for example, never invented it, which is quite baffling I can agree, considering the heights of their civilization.

 

Well of course you are free not to believe in that analogy, maybe it's clumsy, maybe I could have found better ones, but the fact remains. I just demonstrated that it's not a necessity by essence by finding two counter examples, which renders invalid the implication of a generality, but still lets valid the possibility of it.

 

In any case, I'm not saying you are doing it wrong or right, or passing any judgement on the matter. I'm just asserting that you are acting out of the lore, or what we know of it. You are not the first one to do so. Many players do. If it's what floats your boat, go for it.

 

 

NB: also on the fact that we are supposedly all 'making up lore', that's a bit disingenuous. I don't think I have ever been acting out of the lore myself... Possible, but I doubt it.

[Virella]

 

I personally would be surprised that the potential or underlying ability for a dark knight's existence in some form didn't at all exist BEFORE people figured out how to control it and name it and such. (To me, that's kind of like Christoper Columbus "discovering" the americas...he didn't really. there were already people living there and doing their thing, etc etc.)

The Dark Knights combated the church with their abilities, yes. BUT WHERE did those abilities COME FROM? How did they get these abilities? There had to have been some kind of source, one would think. That kind of knowledge doesn't just grow on trees, after all.

Maybe I just think outside the box too much, idk. The lore doesn't cover enough imo.

 

 

Also, I am trying to explain WHY I think that could've been a possibility, given other things we do know for sure about the world of FFXIV. 

I am not claiming that I am correct per se--rather, I am stating that the lorebook doesn't seem to say YES or NO to my theory definitively. I'm merely using evidence to support my views.

 

The lorebook is also a supplemental guide as I understand it, and it has SOME information to fill in some of the blanks and answer some of the questions. It's not the entire list of answers to the test, so to speak. There's plenty of stuff the lorebook alone doesn't tell us.

I completely understand the desire to adhere to the book, but when the book doesn't say NO THAT DIDN'T (OR COULDN'T POSSIBLY) HAPPEN, many people are going to interpret it either way.

I'm going to repeat what Valence said, it is just inheritely flawed the way you think about it. The fact more people did it doesn't make it any less flawed, it just makes people share your sentiment about how they see lore, and their degree of seriousness of it.

 

(Also to come back on that little Lore thing you did link, still doesn't state anything about dragons knowing it before the Ishgardians did! The energies they are speaking? Literally her lifeforce, what has to do with the GIRL by his side, not the Dark Knight himself. Please read the quests completely, not just the log blurb! It will help you immensely no doubt.)

 

You are a person who just like to take lore as something what is there, and vaguely based onto it, what is once more completely fine. Then there's folk who don't do that. When we see 'Ishgard was the place for the Dark Arts', until we get lore that disproves it, that is a fact. That is not up for speculation no more.

 

And I think that is were your speculation/theory/argument is inherently flawed to the core. You're not speculating grey areas, your directly trying to disprove a fact at this point.

 

Why? Forgive me, but it sounds as if you're trying to justify your own character at this point, more then trying to actually speculate lore. I love speculating lore. But once more, you're trying to disprove a fact at this point. And that doesn't fly well with people who are 'serious' about their theory crafting. We all need a base to work with, one you try to disprove with no evidence so far. Unless we get new lore come Stormblood, this is what we have, and this is what we need to work with.

 

But at the end of the day? It simply shows the diveristy between roleplayers on the RPC. We have people like myself who don't like breaking or bending overly much (unless you flat out admit you do it. I will respect you so much more then people trying to twist things so their characters look acceptable in their eyes. Hint, they still don't), or folk like yourself who bend and break, and vaguely base their characters onto ingame stuff.

 

And both stances are okay. It is not like we are going to roleplay with one another to begin with.

 

Anyhow what I'm trying to say is that at the end, you're arguing facts here. You can't disprove these facts, not unlike we get more lore down the line, because you have nothing to back your argument up with at this point. Discussion is fine, as long you provide material with it, and so far? You, and those others, have provided none to make the facts we know less credible.

[Seriphyn]

This debate reminds me of what I often say that is that you don't have to roleplay a job to be a badass. It's just a simple logical fallacy most people get into, assuming that mechanical superiority equates to lore superiority.

For example, 95% of sword-wielding player-characters I meet are free paladins, rather than just swordsman. My character is not a free paladin, and I assume his 20 year experience in the Ul'dahn military would be outright superior to any free paladin in their early 20s. Just look at Raubahn. Similarly, a lot of monks and not many pugilists. 

 

We want to latch onto these job crystals as RP justification for why our PCs are awesome, rather than relying on a vivid backstory or actually playing a badass that comes across as one.

 

As for dark knight, no reason you can't play as a zweihander-wielding fighter who uses generic aether in combat. And also coincidentally is a vigilante. Just calling it dark Knight, as people have already pointed out, ties it to Ishgard, the same way samurai are only found in Japan.

[Kilieit]

Yeah, but then it's like

 

Oh yeah he wields a greatsword and he uses aether techniques and he has an impulsive side when it comes to injustices that means he can sometimes make reckless decisions and he has a manner that's unsettling to others and...

 

...so you're basically dancing around being like "oh yeah he's literally exactly the same as a dark knight but not a dark knight, because of reasons," just for the sake of, like... ~not being a special snowflake~? Which is just as pointless as adding needless complexity for the sake of standing out?

 

The reason my character has a DRK soul crystal in the first place is because another PC spotted his vigilante streak and was like "you're one of us" and gave my character said PC's own old crystal, even though I'd originally conceived of my character as someone who would be "like a DRK but not a DRK". It ended up with him becoming a DRK anyway just because of the natural flow of in-character interactions. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

[Valence]

As for dark knight, no reason you can't play as a zweihander-wielding fighter who uses generic aether in combat. And also coincidentally is a vigilante. Just calling it dark Knight, as people have already pointed out, ties it to Ishgard, the same way samurai are only found in Japan.

 

I think his point was more about using the Dark Arts while not being a Dark Knight.

 

Personally I don't necessarily buy into the idea of "martial arts have been invented everywhere because people needed to fight bare handed in every culture, THEREFORE kung-fu has been created in many other places than in China", but I mean, it's still a possibility I can't rule out. To me it's not so much breaking the lore than just playing out of it.

 

But yeah, it's a delicate question since we don't really know if Dark Arts is a very specific school of using aether (like conjury, thaumaturgy), or just something you can tap into as long as your emotions are strong enough.