Gender roles

[Berrod Armstrong]

But, we digress! This thread was about girls and boys or something. Marriage! Has anyone kept track on which races have 'husband and wife' couplings? I know Lalafell do, and Hyur, from Tam Tara Deepcroft...what about the rest? It doesn't seem to be a part of Original Miqo'te culture...Sea Wolf Roegadyn females have 'wife' suffixes in their names, so maybe! I'm tryyying to think of an instance of Elezen...the guy who lost his lover in Coerthas, I think?

I want to say that I saw it alluded to in one quest out in Coerthas... there was a "my lord" and "my lady" exchange, and in the context I took it to be the same as "my lord husband" and "my lady wife"... another NPC talks about her 'beloved'. To be honest, though, I would assume that the region the NPC is in (or 'grew up in'...) would more often dictate to the husband/wife trends than race or clan.

 

There is the elezen lady in coerthas that speaks of her betrothed, who was thrown into the witchdrop. There's also the elezen who asks you to retrieve his dead wife's wedding ring for him. I also spotted some elezen npcs in the same zone (Dragonhead, male and female), the female knight says to the other "We cannot keep doing this. Think of your wife." as it's heavily suggested that they're up to something... Naughty. Tsk tsk. 

 

I'm sure there are several examples outside of Coerthas of married elezen, I just can't quote them off the top of my head.

I'll probably run around Gridania/The Shroud and see if I can find something sometime. I'm curious about what the lore behind 'eternal bonds' is going to be as well!

[Kage]

That aside, you guys have derailed from talking about gender roles...To who would win in a fight between a Lalafell and anything bigger than a Lalafell.

 

I don't see how the two are related in any way. *shrugs*

The idea is, is there anything that is considered an equalizer to account for physical differences. Society generally goes on with the idea that women are "lower" because they are physically weaker and not as strong as men. What can be stated as the "equalizer" for females can pretty much be the same reason why Lalafell are considered just as strong and equal in battle as a Roegaydn. Or vice versa.

[LiadansWhisper]

That aside, you guys have derailed from talking about gender roles...To who would win in a fight between a Lalafell and anything bigger than a Lalafell.

 

I don't see how the two are related in any way. *shrugs*

The idea is, is there anything that is considered an equalizer to account for physical differences. Society generally goes on with the idea that women are "lower" because they are physically weaker and not as strong as men. What can be stated as the "equalizer" for females can pretty much be the same reason why Lalafell are considered just as strong and equal in battle as a Roegaydn. Or vice versa.

 

Not every society takes that standpoint, even though women in the real world are physically weaker than men.  There's at least one culture that I can think of in New Zealand that is fiercely matriarchal.  I want to say that some subsets of Tibetan society are also matriarchal.  And even though Chinese culture was very patriarchal, women actually ran the family unit prior to the revolution there.

[LandStander]

That aside, you guys have derailed from talking about gender roles...To who would win in a fight between a Lalafell and anything bigger than a Lalafell.

 

I don't see how the two are related in any way. *shrugs*

The idea is, is there anything that is considered an equalizer to account for physical differences. Society generally goes on with the idea that women are "lower" because they are physically weaker and not as strong as men. What can be stated as the "equalizer" for females can pretty much be the same reason why Lalafell are considered just as strong and equal in battle as a Roegaydn. Or vice versa.

 

Not every society takes that standpoint, even though women in the real world are physically weaker than men.  There's at least one culture that I can think of in New Zealand that is fiercely matriarchal.  I want to say that some subsets of Tibetan society are also matriarchal.  And even though Chinese culture was very patriarchal, women actually ran the family unit prior to the revolution there.

There are some cultures in India that are the same way. I remember doing a report on a subset of people where the child took the mothers name, the land was in the mothers name, and the child had multiple fathers. Anthropology class was fun 

 

 

Men are born with more skeletal muscle tissue while women usually have more adipose, so technically they are stronger than women...technically. Things start to change as the body grows older and you account for physical activities and diet. 

 

Eorzea seems to be pretty much like the society we see today. Actually a little better as women seem to be deployed to the frontlines alongside men while last I checked the American military seems to frown upon that sort of behavior. I know they still dont allow women onto submarines. All 3 branches of government seem to be held my women as well which should speak volumes about how equal the sexes are treated.

[synaesthetic]

Logical consistency is necessary in any story, not just contemporary fiction. You can't throw logic out the window in fantasy or science fiction. Logically it makes more sense to handwave the difference between the races and sexes with magic than it does to ignore the differences and pretend they don't exist.

 

Yeah, it's a bit of a cop-out, but it's better than not explaining things at all. And it's vastly superior to race restricting classes or giving major stat penalties. It would suck a lot for lalafell players if all they could be was THM, ACN and CNJ.

[Kellach Woods]

Yeah, it's a bit of a cop-out, but it's better than not explaining things at all. And it's vastly superior to race restricting classes or giving major stat penalties. It would suck a lot for lalafell players if all they could be was THM, ACN and CNJ.

 

WELL IN REALITY MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST SO THEY'RE SCREWED ANYWAY HAHAHA.

 

This is why arguing about reality or actual combat is bad. Especially since this is a crafted work of fiction. AKA you decide what happens.

[Zyrusticae]

This is a crafted work of fiction, but in any good work of fiction there is always an internal logic that is (or should be) internally consistent with itself. Stories that fail to maintain this usually suffer for it, unless the lack of consistency is the point (and obviously this is far from the case for FFXIV).

 

They've visibly put a lot of thought and time into making aether a big part of the game world, going so far as to make primals into beings made of pure aether and making an entire continent whose premise lies on "how do they compensate for a lack of aether". It goes without saying that aether is a large part of how combat works in the game world, and trying to make sense of it without consideration for it just isn't going to get you very far.

[allgivenover]

[Naunet]

Hildibrand is freakishly unnatural. That's kind of the point of his story.

[allgivenover]

My point is that it's a great example of how it's not that important or worth vehemently arguing over. If you want more concrete rules where everything is explained, fine. If you don't care that things are inconsistent (and oh boy are they!), fine. It's just two different styles of RP.

 

 

:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P

[Naunet]

Thoroughly confused by the wall of faces. @.@

 

Hildibrand's unbelievable feats that seem to violate all rules of existence in XIV are generally acceptable because the "authors" recognize that there is something very, very strange going on with that guy (and it apparently runs in the family). At times I get the feeling we're watching a smoke-and-mirrors show with the guy; at other times, it seems he has some legitimate "super powers" (so to speak). Probably aether-induced.

 

I wonder if Hildibrand is a primal - the coalesced thoughts, hopes, and dreams of every individual who was ever in distress as a result of a crime and yearning for someone to solve their mystery and give them justice.

[allgivenover]

Hildibrand's unbelievable feats that seem to violate all rules of existence in XIV..

 

That's the thing, what are the rules? I don't think we could even settle on them if we tried!

 

The setting is really inconsistent and undefined in a lot of places. If we tried to make a compendium of all the "rules" it would degenerate into endless arguments. Why? Because the devs arn't thinking of RP and lore consistency when they write this material. They don't make these games for us unfortunately (and it would probably be a financial flop if they did, so I don't blame them).

 

I favor things "making sense" as well, but I quickly realized that getting a consensus about it is going to be damn near impossible.

 

Interesting theory about Hildebrand, but I think it's just as likely he's comic relief that they didn't put very much thought into.

[Naunet]

I have no illusions that SE is any different than any other game developer. They think very surface-level when it comes to lore, if that. There's no need to try and convince me of that.

 

Doesn't mean it isn't fun trying to come up with explanations, though.

[Berrod Armstrong]

On the note of Hildibrand -- isn't he undead?

 

Edit: OH HE THOUGHT HE WAS AT ONE POINT, NEVER MIND.

[Kellach Woods]

I have no illusions that SE is any different than any other game developer. They think very surface-level when it comes to lore, if that. There's no need to try and convince me of that.

 

Doesn't mean it isn't fun trying to come up with explanations, though.

If they were extremely consistent with lore there wouldn't be speculation.

 

That being said, Hildibrand's existence is an affront to logic. That's why we all love him. Same with Godbert really (okay, I like Godbert because I am a sucker for anyone who does a textbook german suplex in a game where it makes no sense to do).

[Kage]

The Manderville men are wonderful. One of them is even on the Syndicate!

 

I do however want and feel like I need a way to explain why a woman and also a Lalafell would be able to be on par or beat what we consider to be physically superior. And I don't like to think that it's just "~skill~" because it's like half/half in the Ul'dah forces (Immortal Flames, Brass Blades, Sultansworn) that there are Lalafell, and Hyur and Roegadyn.

 

I personally feel it -is- aether.

[Aya]

People will interpret and play the strength of their characters how they desire

 

(For my own characters) I tend to prefer mine to be realistic.  Aya is athletic, fit, and stronger than people would expect, but nonetheless a weakling (in most ways) compared to any men other than Lalafel and perhaps smaller Miqo'te.  And would be easily overpowered by most all Roegadyn women, and many Highlander women.  Making up for these physical weaknesses (and, indeed,the many other weaknesses she possesses!) are part of what make playing her interesting as a character.

 

I disregard in-game combat performance because issues of game balance essentially beg the question before RP can be taken into account.  But, should a Lalafel (female Miqo'te, or any other possible example!) wish to use aether to be as strong as the mightiest Sea Wolf, I don't see how you could really object! Though his height and stature would still introduce limitations a little more difficult to overcome.

[C'kayah Polaali]

If you want to look at game mechanics in relation to this question, I think aether is a good answer to this.

 

If you look at the starter stats, they're minuscule compared to the stats of an endgame character. Where do all the extra stats come from? Is someone *really* that much stronger at level 50, in terms of muscle, than they are at level 1? Probably not. Instead, they're better able to tap into the aether that flows all around our characters (with crystals and peace and love and the will of Landru and all that).

 

For differences between the sexes, there's clearly no in-game stat difference because because it's what we as players expect.

 

For the races, there are differences in stats, but they're relatively small.

 

That said, it's probably a bad idea to start looking at things like physical size as an indicator of strength. Take a look at Chimpanzees in the real world, for instance. Pound for pound, they're about four times as strong as a person. A 50 pound Chimp can easily take a fully grown man in a fight, and a large Chimp (males of some types can grow to about the size of a male Miqo'te) maintains that huge margin of strength.

 

Makes you look at Lalafells just a little bit differently...

[Zyrusticae]

That said, it's probably a bad idea to start looking at things like physical size as an indicator of strength. Take a look at Chimpanzees in the real world, for instance. Pound for pound, they're about four times as strong as a person. A 50 pound Chimp can easily take a fully grown man in a fight, and a large Chimp (males of some types can grow to about the size of a male Miqo'te) maintains that huge margin of strength.

 

Makes you look at Lalafells just a little bit differently...

The thing about this is that they're actually trading brain power for more brawn; to put it another way, only so much of our brains are devoted to physical activity and exertion. Part of the reason we're weaker is because our brains are actually holding us back in order to prevent us from damaging ourselves in the process of exertion. Naturally, since Chimpanzees are much less intellectually inclined (but they're still smart, mind you), they have more resources to devote to raw physical strength. A similar and related theory says that their lack of fine motor control (i.e. less precision) means that they devote more resources to the major muscles. And while we're at it, the actual amount is closer to twice that of human strength per pound - any claims of 4x or higher are completely unfounded.

 

All this is just a long way of saying that, no, Lalafell are really, really unlikely to have chimpanzee-style strength. If they did, they would be lacking considerably in other areas, and wouldn't even be capable of performing certain jobs, much less do something like fine stitching. I will continue to posit that aether is the answer, always.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

Part of the reason we're weaker is because our brains are actually holding us back in order to prevent us from damaging ourselves in the process of exertion. 

 

I would really l like a citation on this, because I have literally never heard this before.

[111]

The real reason the chimp/lala analogy fails is because Chimpanzees have giant arms with lots of leverage for muscles to work on. Lalafells have little tiny T-rex arms. Even if their muscles were 10x stronger they're at such a mechanical disadvantage they'd still have problems keeping up with a Highlander.

[Yssen]

The real reason the chimp/lala analogy fails is because Chimpanzees have giant arms with lots of leverage for muscles to work on. Lalafells have little tiny T-rex arms. Even if their muscles were 10x stronger they're at such a mechanical disadvantage they'd still have problems keeping up with a Highlander.

 

They have giant heads, and tiny arms, and they are not sure this plan was thought through. 

 

^ ^

[LiadansWhisper]

The real reason the chimp/lala analogy fails is because Chimpanzees have giant arms with lots of leverage for muscles to work on. Lalafells have little tiny T-rex arms. Even if their muscles were 10x stronger they're at such a mechanical disadvantage they'd still have problems keeping up with a Highlander.

 

They have giant heads, and tiny arms, and they are not sure this plan was thought through. 

 

^ ^

 

>.>

 

3LVXjB_VUfk

[C'kayah Polaali]

 

 

Part of the reason we're weaker is because our brains are actually holding us back in order to prevent us from damaging ourselves in the process of exertion. 

 

I would really l like a citation on this, because I have literally never heard this before.

I've seen this theory before, but it's never made a lot of sense to me.

 

There are theories that chalk up the difference to differences in fine motor control, or to evolutionary differences designed to allow more metabolic activity for our brains without increasing the amount of food we have to eat, but there are other theories pointing to differences in the length of muscle fibers, muscle proteins, or leverage.

 

There's an interesting study on bonobos, though, that looks at their jumping performance and determines that bonobos generate about as much force while jumping as an adult human, despite their smaller size. This is interesting because, while (as Nat says) chimps and bonobos do have these big ol' arms, bonobos have pretty stubby legs compared to humans.

[Naunet]

 

 

Part of the reason we're weaker is because our brains are actually holding us back in order to prevent us from damaging ourselves in the process of exertion. 

 

I would really l like a citation on this, because I have literally never heard this before.

 

Here is the article Zyrusticae is likely referring to. While it's a suggestive study, it doesn't really examine causality, and I would hesitate to claim its hypothesis as fact. I would want to see similar studies across a greater range of species (and not just primates - dolphins are arguably more intelligent than humans, but they have not sacrificed much in the way of physical strength, though they do have the benefit of being aquatic) before considering a causal link.