Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire?

[Zyrusticae]

I think it's important to keep in mind as well that your PC will likely never be a "Warrior of Light"

There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about being a Warrior of Light. It is canon that there are many Warriors of Light and the developers explicitly intended for all player characters to be THE Warriors of Light to begin with. The player characters are a small percentage of the overall population, numbering in the thousands where ordinary citizens number in the millions (or tens of millions).

 

They even drive this point home with the first cutscene where you meet Hydaelyn and you see a whole bunch of other souls flying around with you, which represents other player characters going through the exact same thing.

or the "Leader of the Scions" or the the sole kicker of Garlean butt God-Character in the questlines.

You never actually lead the Scions' date=' you're just the done-getter go-doer who happens to be [i']really good[/i] at their job. That being said, yes, this one is a lot harder to justify in RP since the story doesn't really imply that you are a whole group of people (which it really should, to jive better with the whole MMORPG thing) instead of just one guy or gal.

 

When it comes down to it, the problem is really in that the proportion of NPCs you actually meet and interact with will be far, far lower than the number of PCs you meet and interact with simply by nature of this being an MMORPG. If NPCs were actually sentient and did their own thing and outnumbered PCs 10:1 it would seem a lot less outlandish that so many PCs are "special snowflakes" in some way.

[Sophia_Grave]

I feel like someone should bring up game mechanics because, to the people in charge, game > lore every time. Its for this reason (I feel) that the game goes to great lengths to make the player feel unique and super special, and the lore is specifically adapted to that.

 

This is why I feel like its 100% okay to bend the lore, but just make it meaningful. If you adamantly want to be a dragoon instead of a lancer, actually be a dragoon. Make fighting dragons a big part of your life or history. Have some Ishgardian backstory. I would never say "no, you aren't allowed to do that," but I can't help but scratch my head when the only real reason to be a dragoon is the dragoon-specific lore, which bizarrely gets ignored half the time.

 

The fact that players RP as White Mages even though the lore doesn't explicitly support their existence doesn't bother me. Its the fact that people just do so for no reason other than the title or special powers.

[Lillith Cale]

This thread has brought about some fantastic discussion, and I am truely glad that I poste dit to begin with!

 

It seems like, for the most part, people agree that there are quite a few ways to play various different classes and not break lore, that's very heatening to know and it's definately got me looking forward to roleplaying with everyone here all the more!

[Aduu Avagnar]

I feel like someone should bring up game mechanics because, to the people in charge, game > lore every time. Its for this reason (I feel) that the game goes to great lengths to make the player feel unique and super special, and the lore is specifically adapted to that.

 

This is why I feel like its 100% okay to bend the lore, but just make it meaningful. If you adamantly want to be a dragoon instead of a lancer, actually be a dragoon. Make fighting dragons a big part of your life or history. Have some Ishgardian backstory. I would never say "no, you aren't allowed to do that," but I can't help but scratch my head when the only real reason to be a dragoon is the dragoon-specific lore, which bizarrely gets ignored half the time.

 

The fact that players RP as White Mages even though the lore doesn't explicitly support their existence doesn't bother me. Its the fact that people just do so for no reason other than the title or special powers.

Personally I do not believe that game > lore, Because of the constraints of class balance that have to be inherent in any game system. In the opening video of 2.0 for instance, there is a Black Mage who blows up, in one spell, some Magitek Armour. Mechanically, it is not possible, even with the best gear currently attainable to do this.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Allow me to clarify my interpretation of white mage arts being revived:

 

When the Sixth Umbral catastrophe happened, select few were charged with being keepers of the White and Black magic arts. With White Magic, the Padjal were chosen to be its keepers. Teaching it amongst their race, isn't reviving the art, it is merely continuing to keep the art safe as keepers for the day it is deemed safe to revive the art in Eorzea.

 

In order to revive an art, the keepers of the art would have to take students outside their little circle. Their little circle in this case, is their race. From what I can tell the Padjal are very very few in numbers, and I'm almost willing to bet every one of them are white mages. And I also suspect they are longer lived than the other races of Eorzea.

 

So as I said, teaching amongst themselves, is nothing more than continuing their roles as keepers of an art. Basically keeping it safe until the day the races of Eorzea are deemed mature enough, and trustworthy enough to not abuse it. With the Garleans showing up, adventurers took center stage, showing skill, and wisdom to help protect Eorzea survive the onslaught.

 

1.x lore is still canon today. It may had been a pretty crappy game, but SE clearly did not throw it out. They merely brought 1.x to a close, then expanded the lore and increased the timeline by 5 years for 2.0. And in 2.0's story you play the first of many adventurers who get trained to be a white mage to combat both the Garlean threat and also the threat of the primals.

 

That's why in the Lost City of Amdapor opening questline, if you talk to Raya-O-Senna as a white mage, she doesn't address you as her former student, but as just another white mage. Because 1.x white mages weren't her students. It suggests that as of 2.2 when The Lost City of Amdapor dungeon came out, that adventurer white mages have become more popular. So 2.0, the art was starting its revival, so in 2.2, the art can be considered revived.

 

That's my interpretation. It's not stretching lore, it's actually going by lore. In my own character's case, I went a slightly different route, and found a white crystal from the sixth umbral era, to learn to become a white mage. That doesn't stretch lore either, because white magic was quite common in that era. The Padjal though guided her after finding the crystal, so she could be a white mage, which falls in line with the padjal reviving the art.

Except as has previously been said, the reason she addresses you by Class/Job is because of a coding reason, she says the same message, with the appropriate class, for /everyone/. 

 

Out of all of the job stones (or white crystal, as you call it) the White Mage one is gifted to the player by the spirit of a former White Mage, therefore I doubt it would be possible to simply find one lying around. There is still the fact that, if you were one of many being chosen, A-Ruhn-Senna, would not be as vehemently against you being trained in the arts, it is only /after/ you have proved yourself that he even accepts you as being worthy of it.

[Roswyn]

I think it's important to keep in mind as well that your PC will likely never be a "Warrior of Light"

There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about being a Warrior of Light. It is canon that there are many Warriors of Light and the developers explicitly intended for all player characters to be THE Warriors of Light to begin with. The player characters are a small percentage of the overall population, numbering in the thousands where ordinary citizens number in the millions (or tens of millions).

 

They even drive this point home with the first cutscene where you meet Hydaelyn and you see a whole bunch of other souls flying around with you, which represents other player characters going through the exact same thing.

or the "Leader of the Scions" or the the sole kicker of Garlean butt God-Character in the questlines.

You never actually lead the Scions, you're just the done-getter go-doer who happens to be really good at their job. That being said, yes, this one is a lot harder to justify in RP since the story doesn't really imply that you are a whole group of people (which it really should, to jive better with the whole MMORPG thing) instead of just one guy or gal.

 

When it comes down to it, the problem is really in that the proportion of NPCs you actually meet and interact with will be far, far lower than the number of PCs you meet and interact with simply by nature of this being an MMORPG. If NPCs were actually sentient and did their own thing and outnumbered PCs 10:1 it would seem a lot less outlandish that so many PCs are "special snowflakes" in some way.

 

The Warriors of Light reference was referring to the 5 main npc's that K'ailia posted a video of her post. She talked about how one of them was a white mage/black mage and how this makes it canon which is very debatable imo. I thought it was obvious I was expanding upon her reference.

 

 

Also, yes, I'm aware of Minfilia's existence. :thumbsup:

[Aduu Avagnar]

I think it's important to keep in mind as well that your PC will likely never be a "Warrior of Light"

There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about being a Warrior of Light. It is canon that there are many Warriors of Light and the developers explicitly intended for all player characters to be THE Warriors of Light to begin with. The player characters are a small percentage of the overall population, numbering in the thousands where ordinary citizens number in the millions (or tens of millions).

 

They even drive this point home with the first cutscene where you meet Hydaelyn and you see a whole bunch of other souls flying around with you, which represents other player characters going through the exact same thing.

or the "Leader of the Scions" or the the sole kicker of Garlean butt God-Character in the questlines.

You never actually lead the Scions, you're just the done-getter go-doer who happens to be really good at their job. That being said, yes, this one is a lot harder to justify in RP since the story doesn't really imply that you are a whole group of people (which it really should, to jive better with the whole MMORPG thing) instead of just one guy or gal.

 

When it comes down to it, the problem is really in that the proportion of NPCs you actually meet and interact with will be far, far lower than the number of PCs you meet and interact with simply by nature of this being an MMORPG. If NPCs were actually sentient and did their own thing and outnumbered PCs 10:1 it would seem a lot less outlandish that so many PCs are "special snowflakes" in some way.

 

The Warriors of Light reference was referring to the 5 main npc's that K'ailia posted a video of her post. She talked about how one of them was a white mage/black mage and how this makes it canon which is very debatable imo. I thought it was obvious I was expanding upon her reference.

 

 

Also, yes, I'm aware of Minfilia's existence. :thumbsup:

Actually, the Warriors of Light are any 1.0 character:

 

Excerpt from Final Fantasy Wikia

 

The Warriors of Light are stated to be the band of Adventurers (i.e. the players) that helped protect the city-states and form the Eorzean Alliance during the events leading up to the Seventh Umbral Era. They took to the field during the Battle on the plains of Mor Dhona and were apparently lost during the unleashing of Bahamut. Their name derives from the fact that whenever people try to remember them, all they can remember is a silhouette surrounded by a blinding light.

 

Characters created for the original game have a special tattoo on their neck, indicating they are one of the Warriors of Light. It can be hidden (or unhidden) with command "/lmark". They also have a different intro upon starting the game, with them appearing in a flash of light and walking on foot to their chosen city state, and minor edits to the text of some quests. They also receive a chocobo who's beak has been branded with the same mark, implying this was possibly their original chocobo from the previous era. Near completion of the main plot, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn and all player characters (i.e. including those created in Realm Reborn) are referred to as Warriors of Light by the leaders of the Grand Companies. The player character is refered to as a Warrior of Light specifically by Hydaelyn.

 

 

 

 

Unless I misunderstood, and you were simply pointing out that they were simply refering to those specific adventurers as Warriors of Light.

[Roswyn]

Actually, the Warriors of Light are any 1.0 character:

 

 

Excerpt from Final Fantasy Wikia

 

The Warriors of Light are stated to be the band of Adventurers (i.e. the players) that helped protect the city-states and form the Eorzean Alliance during the events leading up to the Seventh Umbral Era. They took to the field during the Battle on the plains of Mor Dhona and were apparently lost during the unleashing of Bahamut. Their name derives from the fact that whenever people try to remember them, all they can remember is a silhouette surrounded by a blinding light.

 

Characters created for the original game have a special tattoo on their neck, indicating they are one of the Warriors of Light. It can be hidden (or unhidden) with command "/lmark". They also have a different intro upon starting the game, with them appearing in a flash of light and walking on foot to their chosen city state, and minor edits to the text of some quests. They also receive a chocobo who's beak has been branded with the same mark, implying this was possibly their original chocobo from the previous era. Near completion of the main plot, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn and all player characters (i.e. including those created in Realm Reborn) are referred to as Warriors of Light by the leaders of the Grand Companies. The player character is refered to as a Warrior of Light specifically by Hydaelyn.

 

 

 

 

Unless I misunderstood, and you were simply pointing out that they were simply refering to those specific adventurers as Warriors of Light.

 

As previously stated, It really was a general reference to K'ailia's statement. :lol:

 

K'ailia posted the trailer for the game as support for saying PC's could be whm's blm's shown here:

 

 

So this leaves the lore well open for interpretation, that perhaps your character is not the only adventurer who has become a white mage. In fact, lets also keep in mind the opening cinematic:

 

 

2:04 - White mage is healing the warrior

7:18 - white mage appears with the group

 

Which means, the white mages were utilized before Bahamut actually appeared. So it's not improbable that someone could find a soul of the white mage from ages past, to become a white mage. It still abides by the lore, the game still supports there being non-padjal white mages in Eorzea.

 

 

When the term "Warrior of Light" was used it was in reference to these 5 NPC's who had been brought up previously in the discussion about a page back.

 

In my mind, these 5 folk in the cinematic are largely "mythical" and trying to add them or their abilities into the canon kinda throws it all into upheaval and put's a lot of the quest text in question, especially with white mages. Pretty much everything Lia said. Hence my comment.

[Kailia]

In my mind, these 5 folk in the cinematic are largely "mythical" and trying to add them or their abilities into the canon kinda throws it all into upheaval and put's a lot of the quest text in question, especially with white mages. Pretty much everything Lia said. Hence my comment.

 

To say that 1.x people are considered mythical, would be wrong though. The 5 people seen in the cinematic, are supposed to be representations of 1.x players who have returned to the world.

 

1.x lore is still canon. SE when they remade the game, increased the timeline by 5 years and began a new era as I said. And in regards to white mages, I believe there are very very few padjal, but the ones that do exist, are by default, white mages. They are the keepers of the art. Teaching it amongst themselves, doesn't make them reviving it. It makes them continuing to be keepers.

 

Reviving white magic into Eorzea, means to me, that they are teaching non-padjal, aka, the adventurers of Eorzea, to be white mages. Also, when it comes to white mage crystals, the one in the story was only 1 example of a soul of a white mage. Considering the white mages and black mages were quite common in the Sixth Umbral Era, and most jobs crystals/runes come from eras past, it wouldn't be unheard of for ruins from them eras to have such crystals/runes within.

 

The fact is, the past history before 1.x, is still being worked out by SE, which is why many eras haven't even got any detailed lore. I'm sure as the game grows, the lore will grow, expand, and be made more clear over time.

 

But in the meantime, I see no issues with folks RPing the classes or the jobs however they want. As long as there is some lore to back up character backgrounds, like a conjurer that also communes with the other 3 elements of thaumaturgy for example, it is quite possible to RP a conjurer or white mage, capable of using all six elements.

 

So where do we draw the line? Well for me, I avoid marry suing my char. So since she is ICly a white mage, who is capable of using all six elements, she will never be a thaumaturge or black mage IC. She has only the most basic understanding of arcanima, so she could summon carbuncle. As for scholar, I've made that an OOC class, same with summoner.

 

Disciples of war? Well she has only the most basic understanding of martial arts, which falls under pugilist. And archery? From when she was in the tribe, she's a terrible shot though. Beyond that, any class outside of white mage, pretty much is an OOC one for me.

 

The only exception, will probably be from the upcomming 2.4 class/job, as the person who plays my characters fiance, has vowed to teach her a different way of fighting with daggers. But even then, ninja would most definitely be an OOC title.

 

Overall, I don't feel anyone should feel restricted on what class/job they can RP. If the person is a decent rper, friendly, and not a god moder or marry sue, then don't let their choice of IC job, keep you from rping with them. Even if your interpretation of lore suggests they can't, everyone definitely has their own interpretation of lore.

 

And one thing I can say for certain, this game has far far better lore than World of Warcraft

[Roswyn]

I broke my reply and I'm too lazy to fix and it's not cached.

 

TL;DR: Ppl taking 1 word form paragraphs and running with it and arguing semantics.

 

 

[LiadansWhisper]

In my mind, these 5 folk in the cinematic are largely "mythical" and trying to add them or their abilities into the canon kinda throws it all into upheaval and put's a lot of the quest text in question, especially with white mages. Pretty much everything Lia said. Hence my comment.

 

To say that 1.x people are considered mythical, would be wrong though. The 5 people seen in the cinematic, are supposed to be representations of 1.x players who have returned to the world.

 

Her point would seem to be that those five specific adventurers (whom you cited as definitive proof that White Magic is available to anyone) are largely "mythical." 

 

1.x lore is still canon. SE when they remade the game, increased the timeline by 5 years and began a new era as I said. And in regards to white mages, I believe there are very very few padjal, but the ones that do exist, are by default, white mages. They are the keepers of the art. Teaching it amongst themselves, doesn't make them reviving it. It makes them continuing to be keepers.

 

If 1.0 is still "Canon," then the 2.0 White Mage questline makes no sense. They contradict each other fairly massively, so you do, in fact, need to choose which canon you're going with.  They can't both be canon.  In the 1.0 questline, you're given the power to use White Magic by Raya-O-Senna because you act directly in her name as her agent.  Also: The Elementals are heavily involved.  In fact, they literally create your White Mage robe at the end of the questline, and essentially sign off on you being a White Mage because your heart of compassion has convinced them you are worthy.  So while you're still super special, there's no feel that you're the one and only White Mage, which completely contradicts the 2.0 Job questline.  

 

Reviving white magic into Eorzea, means to me, that they are teaching non-padjal, aka, the adventurers of Eorzea, to be white mages. Also, when it comes to white mage crystals, the one in the story was only 1 example of a soul of a white mage. Considering the white mages and black mages were quite common in the Sixth Umbral Era, and most jobs crystals/runes come from eras past, it wouldn't be unheard of for ruins from them eras to have such crystals/runes within.

 

Okay, but that's your interpretation.  Which makes it a theory, and not a fact.  It doesn't really match with the questline at all, but you're free to differ in how you want to see it.  Just...I really wish you'd acknowledge that instead of trying to push that your interpretation of a single line in the Wiki is the true canon interpretation, when it's contradicted repeatedly in the actual Job questline.

 

But in the meantime, I see no issues with folks RPing the classes or the jobs however they want. As long as there is some lore to back up character backgrounds, like a conjurer that also communes with the other 3 elements of thaumaturgy for example, it is quite possible to RP a conjurer or white mage, capable of using all six elements.

 

People can play whatever they want.  But if they refuse to acknowledge they're at least bending the lore to suit their needs, the entire thing gets silly.

 

Overall, I don't feel anyone should feel restricted on what class/job they can RP. If the person is a decent rper, friendly, and not a god moder or marry sue, then don't let their choice of IC job, keep you from rping with them. Even if your interpretation of lore suggests they can't, everyone definitely has their own interpretation of lore.

 

I feel that people should follow the lore as it is presented to us, rather than decide to ignore it because we don't like it or want it to be something different.  This is, of course, my own opinion and means little to nothing to anyone but myself.

 

And one thing I can say for certain, this game has far far better lore than World of Warcraft

 

Spoken as someone who has never jumped head first into Warcraft lore.  

[Minya]

So reading through this thread, you can't actually RP your job? o_O So instead of being a BLM what am I? I'm confused

[LiadansWhisper]

So reading through this thread, you can't actually RP your job? o_O So instead of being a BLM what am I? I'm confused

 

In most cases, you can.  In one particular case - White Mage - the Job questline tells you that you, personally, are the only non-Padjal White Mage allowed to exist.  Period.  In the case of Black Mages, there's a lot of stigma attached to the art and thus, while you might be able to play a Black Mage, you'd be unwise to advertise it.

[TheLastCandle]

Mm - my problem with the jobs on a personal level is that I feel it becomes easy to fall into the trap of being defined by that job. Being the semi-legendary figures that they are, I think that's to be expected. So.. Aerghwab not belonging to any of those was a conscious choice on my part. He's a former pirate, is passable with a sword or harpoon, a far better hand with an axe, and can more than hold his own in a fistfight. Depending on how the story goes, one of these may end up becoming strengthened but, at least to me, these types of things are something to grow into and be discovered by the character organically via roleplaying. But that's just me, I like to play out growth. Somethin' about that "monomyth" frame of storytelling.

 

As far as the sidebar conversation, FFXIV is incredibly light on published lore, unlike a long-standing property like Warcraft which has a large quantity of lore built up over the last 20 years. Less so, I would argue, in terms of quality or even originality - but I digress. A lot of our RP here, I think, hinges solely on player interpretation of what we're given. There's plenty of inconsistency, not only comparing 1.0 to A Realm Reborn, but even lore posts or website information versus what's presented in story quests. It seems to me that we'd be better served meeting somewhere in the middle rather than arguing over who's right or wrong.

[Kailia]

So reading through this thread, you can't actually RP your job? o_O So instead of being a BLM what am I? I'm confused

 

No, you can indeed continue RPing your job. Some people interpret lore one way, lots of others, including myself, interpret it completely different. So if you want to RP a Black Mage, you are completely free to do so. Hell on Balmung, I've met and RPed with upwards to 15 different black mages. Even my own FC has summoners, black mages, scholars, and of course, white mages.

 

In the end, your character, your choice.

 

Spoken as someone who has never jumped head first into Warcraft lore.

 

Wrong. I actually was one of the most knowledgable people of warcraft lore, until Blizzard butchered it starting in Burning Crusade. Since that expansion, things had gotten even worse for that games lore. This games lore is consistent, and doesn't contradict itself, even though there are a few who disagree.

 

But one thing in Warcraft lore that used to be canon, was that the eredar corrupted sargeras, but then their own lore guy who wrote the original version, didn't remember his own lore and had sargeras correct the eredar instead. When their own lore guy cannot even keep the worlds history together and continues even to this day, to butcher the lore which just about every warcraft lore geek now agrees, is beyond saving now, then it is perfectly justifiable to say this games lore is 100% more stable.

[Kailia]

Mm - my problem with the jobs on a personal level is that I feel it becomes easy to fall into the trap of being defined by that job. Being the semi-legendary figures that they are, I think that's to be expected. So.. Aerghwab not belonging to any of those was a conscious choice on my part. He's a former pirate, is passable with a sword or harpoon, a far better hand with an axe, and can more than hold his own in a fistfight. Depending on how the story goes, one of these may end up becoming strengthened but, at least to me, these types of things are something to grow into and be discovered by the character organically via roleplaying. But that's just me, I like to play out growth. Somethin' about that "monomyth" frame of storytelling.

 

As far as the sidebar conversation, FFXIV is incredibly light on published lore, unlike a long-standing property like Warcraft which has a large quantity of lore built up over the last 20 years. Less so, I would argue, in terms of quality or even originality - but I digress. A lot of our RP here, I think, hinges solely on player interpretation of what we're given. There's plenty of inconsistency, not only comparing 1.0 to A Realm Reborn, but even lore posts or website information versus what's presented in story quests. It seems to me that we'd be better served meeting somewhere in the middle rather than arguing over who's right or wrong.

 

Gah your post was here when I finished my post lol. You know, I wouldn't mind meeting in the middle at all. Ideally, I don't think anyone should be shamed, or showed ire if they desire to RP any of the jobs in this game. White mage and Black mage included. Many of the best RPers I've met, have been one of those.

 

Me personally, I do admitedly get turned off to people that say "You can't rp this job because my view of lore says no". In all my time on Balmung, I've only ever met 1 person that was like that. Most people are perfectly fine with people rping jobs. In fact I dare say the majority of the community does RP the jobs. So I do tend to take a more neutral and open stance. And yes there are limitations in my stance as well.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

 

Spoken as someone who has never jumped head first into Warcraft lore.

 

Wrong. I actually was one of the most knowledgable people of warcraft lore, until Blizzard butchered it starting in Burning Crusade. Since that expansion, things had gotten even worse for that games lore. This games lore is consistent, and doesn't contradict itself, even though there are a few who disagree.

 

LOL.  Let me ask you - what do you think of Elder Scrolls lore?  It's voluminous, and yet contradicts itself repeatedly, consistently (it's consistently contradictory, even!).  So...is it bad, too?

 

But one thing in Warcraft lore that used to be canon, was that the eredar corrupted sargeras, but then their own lore guy who wrote the original version, didn't remember his own lore and had sargeras correct the eredar instead. When their own lore guy cannot even keep the worlds history together and continues even to this day, to butcher the lore which just about every warcraft lore geek now agrees, is beyond saving now, then it is perfectly justifiable to say this games lore is 100% more stable.

 

Um...sure.    I recognize that you rather obviously dislike Warcraft.  I'm not going to bother arguing with you at this point, as you're just going to say things like, "Wrong!"  But, I do disagree with you.  If you stopped at the start of Burning Crusade, that explains a lot.

[TheLastCandle]

Gah your post was here when I finished my post lol. You know, I wouldn't mind meeting in the middle at all. Ideally, I don't think anyone should be shamed, or showed ire if they desire to RP any of the jobs in this game. White mage and Black mage included. Many of the best RPers I've met, have been one of those.

 

Me personally, I do admitedly get turned off to people that say "You can't rp this job because my view of lore says no". In all my time on Balmung, I've only ever met 1 person that was like that. Most people are perfectly fine with people rping jobs. In fact I dare say the majority of the community does RP the jobs. So I do tend to take a more neutral and open stance. And yes there are limitations in my stance as well.

 

In the end, it's your character and your story, so if you have an IC reason to be any given job, you're well within your rights to do so.  But if characters announce themselves as a black/white/sepia mage (still legendary figures to many Eorzeans, at the very least) that character might be met with understandable skepticism or maybe even distrust from certain other characters. If a player can roll with a situation like that without taking it as OOC derision, then I'd tell that player to go for it!

 

Side-note: Why did this become an argument over World of Warcraft's lore? We play FFXIV. ><

[Sophia_Grave]

To get back on topic, RPing as a job is, in most cases, lorebending. That isn't bad in and of itself, but lore is our baseline. When we approach someone, we use the lore to form interaction. It makes people uncomfortable because lorebending is a personal decision: You bend the lore in what way you see fit; there is no way for anyone else to know without having some sort of Lore resume attached to your character. While lore bending is totally warranted when done right, it does technically get in the way of interaction. There's never any way to know whether or not someone is lorebending, why, or how the other person can adapt that into his own IC structure. One person can be a WHM just because they have a job crystal. Another person doesn't recognize job crystals at all in Lore, and their story was that they were taught White Magic. Etc etc. Essentially, it makes things a bit messy, and people are often VERY uncomfortable with that.

[Kailia]

Well I think all that can be said, has been said. And seeing a few responses towards myself, I am gonna be bowing out of this thread now, before things have a chance to get out of hand.

 

Just know, I don't hold anything against folks who want to RP the jobs. It's well within their rights. There's lore to back it up. It's not my place, or really, anyones place to dictate to others what they can and cannot RP. It comes down to what makes you, yourself comfortable.

 

I consider myself a middle ground person. I can accept any job being RP'ed, within reason. If a char isn't a marry sue, or is the bastard child of minfilia and thankred, and part dragon part vampire, we most likely will get along swingingly

 

I've always been pretty relaxed when it comes to RP. And if someone rp's a way that I don't like, I don't really criticize them. I usually shy away from them. Because in the end, it's not my place to say how someone should RP, or what they can and cannot RP.

 

Later!

[Sounsyy]

I'm late to the topic as usual, but I wanted to salvage some of the discussion with some lore clarification for the OP and others. There seems to be a little mis-information happening.

 

To Lillith, Bards are totally do-able on a mass scale without being lore breaking. The lore behind them are that they are battle musicians. Their songs and tales stir the soldiers at arms and give them morale and strength. The traditional weapon of the Bard has always been the bow. Now, the reason why they are rare now, is because the last time Bards were used in a war was 100 years ago during the Autumn War. Since that time, Eorzea has not been in a great war until the recent Garlean occupation. Coincidentally, Bards are now starting to make a comeback. So keep on strumming, Eorzea has need of you.

 

 

There are Dragoons, and there is The Azure Dragoon.  It's lore-friendly to be a Dragoon.  It's not lore-friendly to be The Azure Dragoon.

Ah, well whats the difference between the two then?   @_@

 

The difference is: "Dragoon" is just a title. "Dragoon" in XIV lore, literally means an Ishgardian Knight who has slain a dragon. (And has proved it.) They are not speshul, they do not have powers. They don't even have to use a lance. All they've done is killed at least one dragon.

 

The Azure Dragoon is a person chosen by Nidhogg's Eye to bare the Dragon King's influence. With the extreme exception of the MSQ PC, this only happens once per generation. It is not a gift, it is a curse. The Azure Dragon must wear ritual Drachen Mail, which helps repel the Dragon King's influence, but it is ultimately their own personal willpower which prevents them from succumbing to Nidhogg's Eye and committing terrible atrocities.

 

 

Warrior would also be kind of hard to justify.

 

Warrior actually isn't that bad. According to Curious George, the ancient art of the Inner Beast is still being taught by the Hellsguardian villages beyond Agalatia's Spine in Farreach. Travel there, and you may find the path to unlock your own Inner Beast. It is true that the art fell into disuse in Eorzea, but mainly for the same reason as Bard. There were no great wars fought for nearly a century.

 

 

Black Mage: Have the strength of will to draw from the void and get someone to teach you

Bard: Befriend the Moogles and be taught how to do it

 

To clarify, moogles have nothing to do with learning to become a bard. All they do in the Bard Quests is help you convince Johantel to get off his bum and stop feeling sorry for himself. Cuddly, fluffy, moogle plushies are good for that sort of thing.

 

Black Mages are interesting in that, yes, they learned to open Voidgates, but that isn't really what Black Magic is. "Black Magic" by definition, is actually just a technique to more effectively cast destructive magic. The mother of Black Magic, Shatotto, wished to ever further expand her magical prowess, but was ultimately limited by her own aetherial reserves. That is to say, to wield the power Shatotto desired, it would kill her. So she discovered a way to drain the planet's aether instead of her own. This technique was called Black Magic. Likely receiving its name because the land around the caster would die with every cast.

 

From 1.0, we learned that Black Magic is not taught. It is learned through rigorous study, reading, and experimentation. It is not an exact art. It takes years, possibly decades to master. And even then, things can still go horribly wrong.

 

As for its connection to the Void, we now know that Black Magic can be used to open Voidgates. Thaumaturgy also has this ability, however, the sheer amount of aether required for the process likely makes this impossible for a Thaumaturge to do alone. Which is why you need Black Magic, to siphon the world's aether for the job.

 

For obvious reasons, this job has been forbidden since the War of the Magi, in which Black Mages, White Mages, and Scholars waged a magical war so devastating, it nearly killed the planet, prompting the Elementals of the Twelveswood to summon a flood to cleanse the taint of all magic from the world.

 

 

 

Sigh... White Mage is complicated. In 1.0, you were granted access to Succor (White Magic) by an Elemental named Oha-Sok. And it is because of your purity of heart (or possibly Hydaelyn's Blessing) that Oha-Sok entrusts YOU to return Succor to the dying planet. She even becomes your White Mage Robe so that you might carry Her power with you.

 

In 2.0, they've all but abolished Elementals being of any consequence any more. Ugh. Hatred. Anyways, you are gifted the White Mage Soulstone of A-Towa-Cant, an extremely eccentric, dead Padjal. The two Seedseers, begrudgingly accept Cant's choice of successor mainly because they need a third whee-White Mage to strengthen the Hedge and are just too lazy to ask their big sister or E-Sumi...

 

Anyways, in BOTH quest lines, you are quite sternly warned/threatened that should you ever abuse the Succor granted you, you're in for a world of hurt. Now, while both versions are fairly exclusionary, I'm of the opinion that if you can prove beyond any doubt that your character is pure of heart, you can wield succor. I personally prefer the 1.0 lore on the topic because A) it's better written and B) it does not discount the influence of the Elementals.

 

Because Succor is the Elemental's Magic. They gifted it to Mankind in order to balance the destruction of Black Magic. It is the Yin to Black Magic's Yang. But ultimately, the world could not support the aether needed to heal what Black Magic destroyed.

 

 

I'm going to end this here and get some sleep. Hope this helps! ^^

[Seriphyn]

I, too, have treated dragoon as just a title, akin to "Ishgardian lancer". Similar to how you have different names for a knight in different cultures. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of IC dragoons in the drachen mail, which makes my character go "wtf is that" considering how alien it is compared to everything else. IIRC, there are NPCs called Dragoons and they're just in chainmail.

 

On the op's original point. I believe seeing stuff like a Miqo'te dragoon is like seeing a Caucasian samurai irl. There are a lot who don't play Miqo'te to the lore anyway (I've seen at least one Miqo'te who is six foot plus and built like Schwarzenegger, which in my mind is like trying to play a lalafell who is not gnome height)

[LiadansWhisper]

Black Mages are interesting in that, yes, they learned to open Voidgates, but that isn't really what Black Magic is. "Black Magic" by definition, is actually just a technique to more effectively cast destructive magic. The mother of Black Magic, Shatotto, wished to ever further expand her magical prowess, but was ultimately limited by her own aetherial reserves. That is to say, to wield the power Shatotto desired, it would kill her. So she discovered a way to drain the planet's aether instead of her own. This technique was called Black Magic. Likely receiving its name because the land around the caster would die with every cast.

 

I still wonder if that's the "in-character" explanation for why Thanalan is so damn dry, yet has constant rainstorms.  With how careful Yoshi-P and co have been about the environments, etc, it's hard to believe they'd be this shoddy about the environment.  There's also the stream that runs outside of Forgotten Springs.  It's literally a channel of water through the sand.  There isn't a single bit of greenery that grows near it, despite the fact that there very much should be.  But nothing at all grows there.  It's weird.

 

From 1.0, we learned that Black Magic is not taught. It is learned through rigorous study, reading, and experimentation. It is not an exact art. It takes years, possibly decades to master. And even then, things can still go horribly wrong.

 

As for its connection to the Void, we now know that Black Magic can be used to open Voidgates. Thaumaturgy also has this ability, however, the sheer amount of aether required for the process likely makes this impossible for a Thaumaturge to do alone. Which is why you need Black Magic, to siphon the world's aether for the job.

 

For obvious reasons, this job has been forbidden since the War of the Magi, in which Black Mages, White Mages, and Scholars waged a magical war so devastating, it nearly killed the planet, prompting the Elementals of the Twelveswood to summon a flood to cleanse the taint of all magic from the world.

 

That's good info.  The idea of a Black Magic accidentally blowing themselves up or even killing themselves because they flubbed a spell or whatnot is quite interesting. 

 

Sigh... White Mage is complicated. In 1.0, you were granted access to Succor (White Magic) by an Elemental named Oha-Sok. And it is because of your purity of heart (or possibly Hydaelyn's Blessing) that Oha-Sok entrusts YOU to return Succor to the dying planet. She even becomes your White Mage Robe so that you might carry Her power with you.

 

In 2.0, they've all but abolished Elementals being of any consequence any more. Ugh. Hatred. Anyways, you are gifted the White Mage Soulstone of A-Towa-Cant, an extremely eccentric, dead Padjal. The two Seedseers, begrudgingly accept Cant's choice of successor mainly because they need a third whee-White Mage to strengthen the Hedge and are just too lazy to ask their big sister or E-Sumi...

 

Anyways, in BOTH quest lines, you are quite sternly warned/threatened that should you ever abuse the Succor granted you, you're in for a world of hurt. Now, while both versions are fairly exclusionary, I'm of the opinion that if you can prove beyond any doubt that your character is pure of heart, you can wield succor. I personally prefer the 1.0 lore on the topic because A) it's better written and B) it does not discount the influence of the Elementals.

 

Because Succor is the Elemental's Magic. They gifted it to Mankind in order to balance the destruction of Black Magic. It is the Yin to Black Magic's Yang. But ultimately, the world could not support the aether needed to heal what Black Magic destroyed.

 

 

I'm going to end this here and get some sleep. Hope this helps! ^^

 

I had gotten a slightly different impression of the 1.0 questline, but of course, the Unending Journey doesn't actually record all cutscenes, just most of them, so I was pretty sure I was missing something.  The thing that stuck out at me from the 1.0 questline is that it seemed like you were just a convenient person to run fetch-and-carry, or whatnot, for Raya-O-Senna.  The nearly flippant way she's like, "Hey, you can leave the Shroud, you can be my agent, so here's some White Magic to play with" just really made me think that maybe you weren't her only agent.  It's way different from having the super-special soul crystal from A-Towa-Kant in 2.0, and I felt like it was a more open-ended scenario because there's no suggestion that the Elementals can't or won't grant White Magic to others who prove worthy, whereas it's emphasized repeatedly that the only reason Raya-O is helping you is that A-Towa-Kant chose you specifically.  While she's far more accepting than her younger brother, there's never the suggestion that she'd even consider teaching you if you didn't have that all-important soulstone.

 

I also agree with you about the Elementals being dragged out of the questline makes it much less interesting.  Raya spends quite a bit talking about the Elementals in the 2.0 quest, but you really never see a single one - not even the Great One in Everschade that you're supposedly trying to keep from rampaging through the Shroud.  It's disappointing, since the Elementals are supposed to be the gatekeepers on Succor, yet they never once interact directly with you.

[Kellach Woods]

It's even more bizarre that they go into painstakingly obtuse ways to justify multiple people having access to jobs except for White Mage. As though you were special-er for going that route.

[Lillith Cale]

I'm late to the topic as usual, but I wanted to salvage some of the discussion with some lore clarification for the OP and others. There seems to be a little mis-information happening.

 

To Lillith, Bards are totally do-able on a mass scale without being lore breaking. The lore behind them are that they are battle musicians. Their songs and tales stir the soldiers at arms and give them morale and strength. The traditional weapon of the Bard has always been the bow. Now, the reason why they are rare now, is because the last time Bards were used in a war was 100 years ago during the Autumn War. Since that time, Eorzea has not been in a great war until the recent Garlean occupation. Coincidentally, Bards are now starting to make a comeback. So keep on strumming, Eorzea has need of you.

 

 

There are Dragoons, and there is The Azure Dragoon.  It's lore-friendly to be a Dragoon.  It's not lore-friendly to be The Azure Dragoon.

Ah, well whats the difference between the two then?   @_@

 

The difference is: "Dragoon" is just a title. "Dragoon" in XIV lore, literally means an Ishgardian Knight who has slain a dragon. (And has proved it.) They are not speshul, they do not have powers. They don't even have to use a lance. All they've done is killed at least one dragon.

 

The Azure Dragoon is a person chosen by Nidhogg's Eye to bare the Dragon King's influence. With the extreme exception of the MSQ PC, this only happens once per generation. It is not a gift, it is a curse. The Azure Dragon must wear ritual Drachen Mail, which helps repel the Dragon King's influence, but it is ultimately their own personal willpower which prevents them from succumbing to Nidhogg's Eye and committing terrible atrocities.

 

 

Warrior would also be kind of hard to justify.

 

Warrior actually isn't that bad. According to Curious George, the ancient art of the Inner Beast is still being taught by the Hellsguardian villages beyond Agalatia's Spine in Farreach. Travel there, and you may find the path to unlock your own Inner Beast. It is true that the art fell into disuse in Eorzea, but mainly for the same reason as Bard. There were no great wars fought for nearly a century.

 

 

Black Mage: Have the strength of will to draw from the void and get someone to teach you

Bard: Befriend the Moogles and be taught how to do it

 

To clarify, moogles have nothing to do with learning to become a bard. All they do in the Bard Quests is help you convince Johantel to get off his bum and stop feeling sorry for himself. Cuddly, fluffy, moogle plushies are good for that sort of thing.

 

Black Mages are interesting in that, yes, they learned to open Voidgates, but that isn't really what Black Magic is. "Black Magic" by definition, is actually just a technique to more effectively cast destructive magic. The mother of Black Magic, Shatotto, wished to ever further expand her magical prowess, but was ultimately limited by her own aetherial reserves. That is to say, to wield the power Shatotto desired, it would kill her. So she discovered a way to drain the planet's aether instead of her own. This technique was called Black Magic. Likely receiving its name because the land around the caster would die with every cast.

 

From 1.0, we learned that Black Magic is not taught. It is learned through rigorous study, reading, and experimentation. It is not an exact art. It takes years, possibly decades to master. And even then, things can still go horribly wrong.

 

As for its connection to the Void, we now know that Black Magic can be used to open Voidgates. Thaumaturgy also has this ability, however, the sheer amount of aether required for the process likely makes this impossible for a Thaumaturge to do alone. Which is why you need Black Magic, to siphon the world's aether for the job.

 

For obvious reasons, this job has been forbidden since the War of the Magi, in which Black Mages, White Mages, and Scholars waged a magical war so devastating, it nearly killed the planet, prompting the Elementals of the Twelveswood to summon a flood to cleanse the taint of all magic from the world.

 

 

 

Sigh... White Mage is complicated. In 1.0, you were granted access to Succor (White Magic) by an Elemental named Oha-Sok. And it is because of your purity of heart (or possibly Hydaelyn's Blessing) that Oha-Sok entrusts YOU to return Succor to the dying planet. She even becomes your White Mage Robe so that you might carry Her power with you.

 

In 2.0, they've all but abolished Elementals being of any consequence any more. Ugh. Hatred. Anyways, you are gifted the White Mage Soulstone of A-Towa-Cant, an extremely eccentric, dead Padjal. The two Seedseers, begrudgingly accept Cant's choice of successor mainly because they need a third whee-White Mage to strengthen the Hedge and are just too lazy to ask their big sister or E-Sumi...

 

Anyways, in BOTH quest lines, you are quite sternly warned/threatened that should you ever abuse the Succor granted you, you're in for a world of hurt. Now, while both versions are fairly exclusionary, I'm of the opinion that if you can prove beyond any doubt that your character is pure of heart, you can wield succor. I personally prefer the 1.0 lore on the topic because A) it's better written and B) it does not discount the influence of the Elementals.

 

Because Succor is the Elemental's Magic. They gifted it to Mankind in order to balance the destruction of Black Magic. It is the Yin to Black Magic's Yang. But ultimately, the world could not support the aether needed to heal what Black Magic destroyed.

 

 

I'm going to end this here and get some sleep. Hope this helps! ^^

Thank you! This has been incredibly informative and it has helped  In the end, I am more than comfortable continuing with my RP here, once I get a chance to catch more events!  Though, there is one thing I wanted to respond to in this post and this post:

I, too, have treated dragoon as just a title, akin to "Ishgardian lancer". Similar to how you have different names for a knight in different cultures. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of IC dragoons in the drachen mail, which makes my character go "wtf is that" considering how alien it is compared to everything else. IIRC, there are NPCs called Dragoons and they're just in chainmail.

 

On the op's original point. I believe seeing stuff like a Miqo'te dragoon is like seeing a Caucasian samurai irl. There are a lot who don't play Miqo'te to the lore anyway (I've seen at least one Miqo'te who is six foot plus and built like Schwarzenegger, which in my mind is like trying to play a lalafell who is not gnome height)

Besides White Mage, Dragoon seems to be the second most debated class brought up here, so I have a question:

 

What about a person who is playing a Dragoon, with the armor, but has specifically specified it is the armor purchased with Myth tokens? Rowena's wares are a very real thing IC, and we've even seen changes to her area BECAUSE of her dealings with the players. Yes the Drachen mail has special powers, but at this time that doesn't stop people from make replicas as we've seen in regards to Rowena's wares.

 

Also, and I know I'm going off of topic for my class but I adore Dragoon to no end so I want to inquire. Don't we two Dragoons in the game itself? Isn't the person who trained you a Dragoon with their own soulstone they pass to you and then, we have the Azure Dragoon themselves? And....don't we technically only take the helmet from the Azure Dragoon? (or whatever the last piece of eq was from the level 50 Dragoon quest. I don't remember )