Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal.

[Aya]

I am with Warren in one sense: I think if you wish to play a Lalafel, but also wish to fully mitigate the physical disadvantages that come with being a Lalafel, you're kind of missing the point, and an opportunity for interesting character development.  If you want to be as strong and quick as a Highlander, play a Highlander.  If you want to have to rely on willpower, cleverness, and efficient use of resources and less obvious advantages, then Lalafel may provide some interesting opportunities

[Kinono]

I honestly don't get the hang-up. I mean, I could see it if this game were based at all on realistic fiction, but it's not. It's Final Fantasy. It's anime fantasy at the absolute best. Watching a little girl punch a huge buff dude and he rolls backwards into a wall isn't that uncommon in this genre. I understand the want for realism, but looking for it in Final Fantasy? You're gonna have a bad time.

 

Even then, there are so many examples of "short" strong races. Dwarves aren't always portrayed as muscle-bound, but the label nearly always removes any doubt of strength. Halfling fighters aren't unheard of. Nobody raises their eyebrows at gnome warriors.

 

I'm going to take a "strong Lalafell" way more seriously than I take "mary-jane whitemage" any day of the week.

 

Ants are super strong. Why not just think of them like big, humanoid ants.

[Gaspard]

Technically, if you go by the notion of size/speed/strength/mass/weight etc, A Well trained highlander kicking a lalafell would, probably, kill it. If we really would go 100 percent by our physics, think of it as if a 1,90 Giant would fight a 4 year old kid with an old mans consciousness. You kick that kid hard enough and it wont just 'flop back', or be able to 'block it'. Chances are you will break it's hands, forearms, face, skull, w/e if you know what you're doing and you're aiming for actual damage.

 

At the same time..

 

Time to pull the argument of arguments.

 

 

The Concept of a Lalafell in itself is comedical. It's a short, scrawny, cute, puffy cheeked version of a Dwarf wobbling around. I don't really think that, in the creation of Lalafells, Physics, logic or 'plausibility' mattered. They are pretty much 'style over substance'.

[Aya]

Halfling fighters aren't unheard of. Nobody raises their eyebrows at gnome warriors.

Both are true, but they're examples that are interesting in large part for their ability to overcome deficiencies of strength and stature.  What's being suggested here is that Lalafel do not possess such deficiencies, or else that they're thoroughly mitigated aetherically to render them moot.  I don't think even Warren is against the idea of a "slight, but well-trained Lalafel warrior wreaking havoc upon unexpecting foes with his well trained sword-arm."  What he is hesitant about, and I think with good reason, is the concept that every Lalafel has the strength of a Highlander (plus the quick mind of a Lalafel) buried within provided he can tap into the aether to produce it.

[Warren Castille]

I honestly don't get the hang-up. I mean, I could see it if this game were based at all on realistic fiction, but it's not. It's Final Fantasy. It's anime fantasy at the absolute best. Watching a little girl punch a huge buff dude and he rolls backwards into a wall isn't that uncommon in this genre. I understand the want for realism, but looking for it in Final Fantasy? You're gonna have a bad time.

 

Even then, there are so many examples of "short" strong races. Dwarves aren't always portrayed as muscle-bound, but the label nearly always removes any doubt of strength. Halfling fighters aren't unheard of. Nobody raises their eyebrows at gnome warriors.

 

 

If we weren't in a grim setting rife with trying to survive one near-apocalypse, I'd agree with you. Eorzea's a serious place, and while the comedic aside is alright from time to time, there's not a single part of the main story that's cartoonish (that isn't fetch quests).

 

Maybe it's my fault for being overly serious, but it's impossible for me to consider lalafell on the level of pure physical strength. Halfling fighters exist (as do their strength penalty and AC bonus due to size difference, which reflects exactly what I'm talking about here). Dwarves are short but incredibly stocky and muscular (though I'm open to seeing one where they aren't, but are strong like they are regardless if you've got a source). Gnome warriors are similar to the halfling one: Sure, you can clas into it, but you're preternaturally at a "handicap" because you're trading damage for dodge.

 

Calling it anime fantasy seems a little off to me. The only FF I can think of that's overtly anime-styled is FF7, and even then only AFTER the Advent Children nightmare that completely .

 

It also hurts my brain when people say physics don't apply as we know them. Everything else does, gravity does, elements do, but this one point which unravels my argument doesn't.

[Kinono]

 What he is hesitant about, and I think with good reason, is the concept that every Lalafel has the strength of a Highlander (plus the quick mind of a Lalafel) buried within provided he can tap into the aether to produce it.

 

Not everyone plays Lalafell as quick-witted or even smart, though! Automatically placing made-up stats on a character because of their race is akin to god-modding, to me. If I play a Roegadyn (and I do!), I should be free to make her weak but smart. People would buy that, despite her size. Same exact reaction if I play a highlander. People would more than likely find the dichotomy interesting!

 

Assuming personality traits to be automatically true about a character based on race in any context besides in-character is just... really, really bad!

[Gaspard]

That's more or less because we have canon evidence that Physics don't apply to Lala's, case in point that 1.0 Video. We can't force our physics on things if the established lore clearly denies them in this particular subject.

[Kinono]

 

If we weren't in a grim setting rife with trying to survive one near-apocalypse, I'd agree with you. Eorzea's a serious place, and while the comedic aside is alright from time to time, there's not a single part of the main story that's cartoonish (that isn't fetch quests).

 

 

I could shoot a Garlean fortress from the dock Costa Del Sol with a handgun. That an invading force just up and plopped a major stronghold there is extremely cartoonish.

[Aya]

Assuming personality traits to be automatically true about a character based on race in any context besides in-character is just... really, really bad!

So a playful little aside is being taken as the main content of my post? Okay

 

I don't have anything further to add!

[Warren Castille]

 What he is hesitant about, and I think with good reason, is the concept that every Lalafel has the strength of a Highlander (plus the quick mind of a Lalafel) buried within provided he can tap into the aether to produce it.

 

Not everyone plays Lalafell as quick-witted or even smart, though! Automatically placing made-up stats on a character because of their race is akin to god-modding, to me. If I play a Roegadyn (and I do!), I should be free to make her weak but smart. People would buy that, despite her size. Same exact reaction if I play a highlander. People would more than likely find the dichotomy interesting!

 

Assuming personality traits to be automatically true about a character based on race in any context besides in-character is just... really, really bad!

 

I only wish this was what everyone did, but what you're calling "personality" traits are in fact racial traits! There's nothing wrong with expecting someone to adhere to the standards that SE's put forth regarding the stereotypes (and I don't use that word negatively, but in the sense that "all roegadyn are huge" is a sterotype).

 

To call again to my example earlier: Fine, lalafell work really hard and can punch just as hard as a roe can. We're wrong for assuming they shouldn't ever be able to, in fact!

 

How serious would you take a roegadyn who trained really, really hard to be as hard a target to hit as a lalafell? I mean outright bodily-unable-to-fight-easily-because-he's-dodging-so-good. In fact, you can only hit him in a lalafell-sized shape near his knees because he's just that good and also physics don't work as we know them so it's totally cool.

 

This is an impossible concept. No one would ever agree to fight it. (Universal) you picked a teensy race intentionally, you do not get to just handwave away their implied racial penalties.

[Warren Castille]

That's more or less because we have canon evidence that Physics don't apply to Lala's, case in point that 1.0 Video. We can't force our physics on things if the established lore clearly denies them in this particular subject.

 

One cherrypicked example does not a canon entry make.

[Verad]

Maybe it's my fault for being overly serious, but it's impossible for me to consider lalafell on the level of pure physical strength. Halfling fighters exist (as do their strength penalty and AC bonus due to size difference, which reflects exactly what I'm talking about here). Dwarves are short but incredibly stocky and muscular (though I'm open to seeing one where they aren't, but are strong like they are regardless if you've got a source). Gnome warriors are similar to the halfling one: Sure, you can clas into it, but you're preternaturally at a "handicap" because you're trading damage for dodge.

 

If you wish to rely on how the races are modeled from the perspective of game mechanics, then bear in mind that the Lalafell are represented as being weaker than the other races, with starting Plainsfolk STR at 18 and Dunesfolk at 17. Only the Keepers are as physically weak with a starting STR of 18. For comparison, Highlanders are the strongest of the races at creation with a STR of 23.

 

This is a fairly slight gap, all told, but it's one that does exist, and one that is being modeled. From a char-op perspective, Lalafells are not the best melee characters. That said, it's a very slight difference, as it is for Halfling and Gnomish fighers in D&D; the early editions give them a -2 to STR where applicable, which can still make them very effective, and later editions simply don't give them a bonus to that particular stat.

 

So if you wish to rely on game mechanics and starting stats, you're right, they are weaker, but they are still able to be capable fighters. I get the impression that "slightly weaker" would not be a satisfactory conclusion for you.

[Adventurer]

I think the main word in your post there Warren is implied.

 

And, come 2.4, we'll be having Roegadyn Ninjas who have an attack where they move so fast they turn invisible and appear on a monster's head!

 

:lol:

 

Comes down to the realism vs fantasy thing at the end of the day. There won't ever be an agreement unless SE turns around and states "Yes, Lalafell are weaker than the rest of the races when it comes to pure strength". We have examples where they aren't, so it's just going to keep going in circles.

 

You may have physics as your argument, but things taken right out of the game show otherwise. And for myself (at least), I'll be taking what the creators of the world and races have shown me over the physics of our own world.

 

Edit: If an example doesn't make it canon, what does? Something we aren't shown at all? I'm not saying physics don't apply to Lalafell, but there is something that gives them the (potential) ability to drag grown Hyur men by the foot and throw them out of a tavern.

 

I'm getting the impression this thread wasn't a question of "Please show me some examples" as the original post asks, but more shooting down the idea that a Lalafell could match any other race strength-wise?

[OttoVann]

Warren m8 I'm largely with your side of thinking overall.

 

How would you handle Otto in a fight? Youre about...5 inches taller than me and if you base your weight off of real world mechanics you have to weigh like 240 pounds minimum since your max-bara.

 

I'm 6'1 and like 210-220. Would you be ok with me being almost if not as strong as you? 5 inches and 30 pounds more weight in muscle mass (since were both maxed muscle) is quite a lot more power potential.

 

Im curious how I would handle it as well actually, Im sort of thinking aloud now.

[Kinono]

This is an impossible concept. No one would ever agree to fight it. (Universal) you picked a teensy race intentionally, you do not get to just handwave away their implied racial penalties.

 

Oh, of course not. I'm not disagreeing with you here. I even said in an earlier post, my own Lalafell is physically weak and relies on bows and poisons.

 

I would take a Roegadyn such as your example seriously provided he had ample weaknesses to make up for it. Dodging everything is one of the prime examples of godmodding, and as such is also really, really bad. 

 

 

Assuming personality traits to be automatically true about a character based on race in any context besides in-character is just... really, really bad!

So a playful little aside is being taken as the main content of my post? Okay

 

I don't have anything further to add!

 

Except I didn't do that at all. ;_;

[Warren Castille]

I think the main word in your post there Warren is implied.

 

And, come 2.4, we'll be having Roegadyn Ninjas who have an attack where they move so fast they turn invisible and appear on a monster's head!

 

:lol:

 

Comes down to the realism vs fantasy thing at the end of the day. There won't ever be an agreement unless SE turns around and states "Yes, Lalafell are weaker than the rest of the races when it comes to pure strength". We have examples where they aren't, so it's just going to keep going in circles.

 

You may have physics as your argument, but things taken right out of the game show otherwise. And for myself (at least), I'll be taking what the creators of the world and races have shown me over the physics of our own world.

 

Edit: If an example doesn't make it canon, what does? Something we aren't shown at all? I'm getting the impression this thread wasn't a question of "Please show me some examples" as the original post asks, but more shooting down the idea that a Lalafell could match any other race strength-wise.

 

Moving so fast you turn invisible and appear on someone's head is not going to be a level 1 skill. It represents training, practice and dedication to learning one specific art (and since we know Ninja utilize ninjitsu, it's not even unreasonable to assume the attack is magical in nature to achieve such results). The things you're referencing right out of the are still examples from the already-extraordinary.

 

I'm saying one example doesn't make something canon. Otherwise we can assume that any attempt at throwing a highlander results in an explosion. Or that a highlander can fall from the moon and survive!

 

Or that any old man can beat up a chimera single-handedly.

 

Or basically any ridiculous thing that ever happened in a Hildebrand scenario, since they're all represented in-game accordingly.

[Kage]

My actual opinion is that a Roegadyn/Hyur/Miqo'te/Elezen would indeed be stronger than Lalafell but they're not going to kick them into the air with every hit or that a Lalafell punching them is something to be laughed at.

 

There's no way for them to be able to be on par with the other races, with weapons, if they aren't able to back it up physically.

 

They may not be able to do knock the wind out of a fighter with their strikes as easily, but they'll have the fortitude to minimize the "crushing" blows and eventually wear it out to the point that a well hit strike will take someone else out.

 

If you have a fighting lalafell.

 

Also: I asked it. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/194866-Ask-Questions-for-the-Lore-Panel-at-the-Las-Vegas-Fan-Festival%21?p=2489584&viewfull=1#post2489584

 

I'll try to ask it again at FanFest, because I honestly do not believe that in-game we have an answer. But I truly believe that if lalafell weren't able to be able to hold their own and it was as if a 24 year old was hitting a 4 year old, that no martial minded commander would ever them into their armed forces.

[Kinono]

Moving so fast you turn invisible and appear on someone's head is not going to be a level 1 skill. 

 

Calling it now. This is going to be the level one weaponskill.

 

Those freaking ladybugs won't know what hit them.

[Warren Castille]

There's no way for them to be able to be on par with the other races, with weapons, if they aren't able to back it up physically.

 

Still adamantly disagreeing with this. Hell, look at any fighting game; there's always a pint-sized speed demon capable of ruining your day with misdirection or agility but can't take a hit for their life.

 

Brute force isn't the only way to win a fight.

[Enteris]

Since shantoto came to Eorzea as represented in game, I'm going to go ahead and bring my Galka over as well.

 

Since my "main" has gotten to lvl50 on every fighting class in game and is binding coil ready on each, as represented in game, I'm going to go ahead and roleplay him as being a near master of each of those arts.

[Gaspard]

I think the main word in your post there Warren is implied.

 

And, come 2.4, we'll be having Roegadyn Ninjas who have an attack where they move so fast they turn invisible and appear on a monster's head!

 

:lol:

 

Comes down to the realism vs fantasy thing at the end of the day. There won't ever be an agreement unless SE turns around and states "Yes, Lalafell are weaker than the rest of the races when it comes to pure strength". We have examples where they aren't, so it's just going to keep going in circles.

 

You may have physics as your argument, but things taken right out of the game show otherwise. And for myself (at least), I'll be taking what the creators of the world and races have shown me over the physics of our own world.

 

Edit: If an example doesn't make it canon, what does? Something we aren't shown at all? I'm getting the impression this thread wasn't a question of "Please show me some examples" as the original post asks, but more shooting down the idea that a Lalafell could match any other race strength-wise.

 

Moving so fast you turn invisible and appear on someone's head is not going to be a level 1 skill. It represents training, practice and dedication to learning one specific art (and since we know Ninja utilize ninjitsu, it's not even unreasonable to assume the attack is magical in nature to achieve such results). The things you're referencing right out of the are still examples from the already-extraordinary.

 

I'm saying one example doesn't make something canon. Otherwise we can assume that any attempt at throwing a highlander results in an explosion. Or that a highlander can fall from the moon and survive!

 

Or that any old man can beat up a chimera single-handedly.

 

Or basically any ridiculous thing that ever happened in a Hildebrand scenario, since they're all represented in-game accordingly.

 

 

Yes, because a comedic sidequest line is the same as a serious mainquest line.

 

If you discredit ingame instances (Y'know, the ones meant seriously) to not be canon, then we can infact base our lore on = nothing. At this point you're discrediting the games 'Lore' value, the 'Main quests' lore value. And 1.0 Is as canon as 2.0 is.

[Kage]

There's no way for them to be able to be on par with the other races, with weapons, if they aren't able to back it up physically.

 

Still adamantly disagreeing with this. Hell, look at any fighting game; there's always a pint-sized speed demon capable of ruining your day with misdirection or agility but can't take a hit for their life.

 

Brute force isn't the only way to win a fight.

But there's nothing in lore or in-game that says lalafell are any faster than other races! Or that Roegadyn move slower!

 

Since shantoto came to Eorzea as represented in game, I'm going to go ahead and bring my Galka over as well.

 

Since my "main" has gotten to lvl50 on every fighting class in game and is binding coil ready on each, as represented in game, I'm going to go ahead and roleplay him as being a near master of each of those arts.

Thank you for your facetious comment but I'll respond in kind.

Is your Galka an extremely powerful mage? Is everyone going to react unkindly to the Galka trapezing through the world?

 

Is your "main" a warrior of light that is the special chosen one?

[Adventurer]

Just want to make it clear that my Ninja example was supposed to be in jest. :lol:

 

Either way, until there are examples that show otherwise, I'll be sticking with the idea that Lalafell can stand toe to toe with the other races.

 

If you're quick to disregard the twin Lalafell Miners, I'll bring up Chuchuto and her friend from the Pugilist storyline. Several times Chuchuto fights alone and/or alongside others but holds her own against Midlanders and Highlanders. She even defeats quite a few, these being from the Alacran, a criminal organisation that are trained to kill.

 

She doesn't use claws, either. Just cesti. There would need to be some strength behind those punches for those to have a decent enough effect where she holds her own.

 

Edit for Enteris: The dev team have already said that the inter-dimensional things such as Lightning and Shantotto are canon. They've also said they'll be exploring this in the future more. Just because you don't agree with some of the lore doesn't mean it isn't actually there.

[Warren Castille]

 

Yes, because a comedic sidequest line is the same as a serious mainquest line.

 

If you discredit ingame instances (Y'know, the ones meant seriously) to not be canon, then we can infact base our lore on = nothing. At this point you're discrediting the games 'Lore' value, the 'Main quests' lore value. And 1.0 Is as canon as 2.0 is.

 

So a comedic punchline to a scene is okay, but an entire questline isn't. You're cherry-picking, especially since I already conceded that everyone knew those specific lalafell were badasses.

 

That cutscene shows a pair of guys being thrown not even in an arc, straight out of the room. Moreso, they're flying around four or five feet off of the ground.

 

But you're right, I'm the one being unreasonable here.

[Kage]

I already conceded that everyone knew those specific lalafell were badasses.

So... do we get to pick and choose whose character are "badasses"?

 

I very much granted do not know 1.0 lore. But you say they're badasses. Who's to say that most lalafell fighting aren't badasses? Were they badasses because they were good fighters or just because they were lalafell badasses?

 

Do specific races get "badass" added to their sheet because of race chosen?