Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal.

[Branson Thorne]

Bullet vs Cannonball. You get shot with a bullet, you may yet live. You take a 6" cannonball and you might live, but your chances are not near as great.

 

And as far as what Warren asked, it's rather simple. Neither.

But if it was a have to choose kind of thing, I'd take the small pointy end. It would puncture straight thru you hand in a small centralized area. The flat brunt end would shatter every bone in your hand.

 

I don't have much experience in construction much beyond framing pool decks and pouring concrete, but I do know that I'd much rather put a nail thru my palm than to smash it with a sledgehammer. I put a nail thru my hand once, and my brother who works full time in construction has done it twice. You just pull the nail out, wrap it up and keep going. Meanwhile, who's buddy was holding a stake while it was being pounded into the gravel while framing a pool had his hand smashed with said sledgehammer, to this day he still can't use his hand much.

[Stormsrage00]

The natural world is certainly full of examples where seemingly smaller creatures are filled with power. It may be possible, and certainly not outside the realm of physics, that the Lalafel have denser muscle-fibers in proportion to their bodies than those of the larger races.

 

Take a look at an orangutan for example. An average female weighs in at about 100 lbs yet is still phenomenally much stronger than the average human being.

 

Should this make Lalafel equal or greater in strength than the larger races is purely an academic debate, in my opinion. What I'm saying is that it is not physically impossible for a smaller being to show strength rivaling or surpassing that of an average human or hyur as the case may be.

[Gegenji]

Take a look at an orangutan for example. An average female weighs in at about 100 lbs yet is still phenomenally much stronger than the average human being.

 

Man, I knew that fact too and shoulda used it. Oh well. That basically ties in to my whole lack of an "even-steven" situation comment a few posts back.

 

Ultimately, though, whether it's a Roe or a Lala, you're probably going to not want to be punched in the face by either. Through whether mechanics of physiology or whatever, a Lalafell can hit as hard as basically any of the other races. Whether they have to train harder to do it, use a differing style of attack, or just naturally have the same levels of power... there's plenty of ways that we can use to explain it.

 

So, one shouldn't just brush off being hit by a Lalafell "because they're a Lalafell." However, conversely, Lalafell shouldn't try to perform maneuvers that - while they may be able to do through strength of arm - become more of a physics problem than anything else (i.e. suplexes). And, unless you're a tiny Hulk, you're probably not going to be able to bodily toss a fully armored Roe like he's a ragdoll without some serious explanation.

 

But ultimately? It's just a matter of communication and concession between those you're RPing with. As with, well, everything in RP. Just as your opponent shouldn't write you off out of hand for being a Lalafell, so too should you at least show enough respect in your opponent's prowess not to just headbutt his punch and shatter his hand in the process. Unless that's what you've agreed on amongst each other to have happen - since that would be a rather rad way to block an attack...

 

... I'm rambling.

[V'aleera]

I'm having a hard time understanding why this thread was restarted on the premise of conventional physics AFTER the release of the Heavensward opening.

 

The laws of physics are wonderful things, but Eorzea exists in a different jurisdiction.

[Warren Castille]

I'm having a hard time understanding why this thread was restarted on the premise of conventional physics AFTER the release of the Heavensward opening.

 

The laws of physics are wonderful things, but Eorzea exists in a different jurisdiction.

 

As the guy who bumped it, I can answer that question!

 

The gif I bumped it shows a rank-and-file Amalj'aa raider punch a man in full armor and have him fly bodily out of the frame. I wanted to see if that addressed anything. Given the couple of pages of conversation for folks unaware this thread was buried, I'd like to think it did?

 

Bigger person punches smaller person = person goes elsewhere.

[Gegenji]

Bigger person punches smaller person = person goes elsewhere.

 

If bigger person has enough strength to move smaller person! Which, in the case of a big burly lizard man with arms as thick as the other guy's torso? Yes, yes he does.

[V'aleera]

But at the same time, in the aforementioned Heavensward opener, when the big bad bridge dragon gets hit by single incoming dragoons much smaller than himself he winds up being completely thrown off the bridge (as much as an airborne entity can be "thrown off" of anything).

[Gegenji]

But at the same time, in the aforementioned Heavensward opener, when the big bad bridge dragon gets hit by single incoming dragoons much smaller than himself he winds up being completely thrown off the bridge (as much as an airborne entity can be "thrown off" of anything).

 

Hell of a lot of power there! Dragon power!

[Kage]

Funny anecdote. When Kage returned to grindstone (also coincidentally the largest turn out ever), Whran'a, someone he beat in full armor [w'hran] once before with his sword and shield then lost to him when whran was barely clothed at all and kage 's shiny axe.

 

Kage flew twice. The second time Kage nope'd out.

 

I don't know what I was getting at. But yeah. I think we can all agree we don't have definitive what how's (my questioned for this wasn't answered at the lore panel) but in some way or form Lalafell can match their opponents. But after Lalafell uprisings and so forth I don't see why they can't be taken with martial prowess.

 

Marshal Tarupin is a disciple of war. They wouldn't post one lalafell as a single paired guard if they didn't expect the Lalafell to match his partner. Like you'll see places guarded by two hyur. You see a place guarded by a single hyur. In that same tone you don't see well 3 or 4 lalafell in the place of one hyur. It's one lalafell guard to one hyur.

 

In that same cutscene you also see other brass blades match and lock in a fight with a bigger Amal'jaa. So... ok.

[Momo]

Not sure we've talked about this enough!  Only 14 pages?!  Not nearly enough Lalafell-centric talk for me!

 

Let me have a say on this:

 

Lala can -in the game- do what they want.  They can be heavily armored soldiers, they can be swift ninjas, they can be heavy handed monks, and so far, none of these options have been strictly prohibited by SE in any way.  In the RP community, sure, we have all these opinions of what one race can and can't do over another: we have some making Roe physically stronger than others, we have some saying that there shouldn't be as many Miqos as there are statistically because of lore, we have some saying clearly that Lalafell, because of our size, cannot possibly be as strong or sturdy as other races because of physics.  So I am going to give a little background on who is affected by this kind of discussion and what one could think after reading it.

 

Momo, formerly a Tarutaru from XI, which was created at that game's opening, is now over 10-11 years later, a Lalafell.  I (the long time RPer of Momo) pick up my copy of FFXIV 1.0, get home, set everything up, and join the game and the RPC basically simultaneously, back when there were not more than a few hundred at most on this forum.  I am excited!  I played a Tarutaru for years, now I get to basically adopt a really similar race, and with FFXIV I get to have a rich and better RP experience because of our quickly growing community.  So Momo is born again, and I start 1.0, quickly we all realize, okay, maybe 1.0 isn't really what we may hoped it would be, it does dismally in ratings, people get fed up with it quickly, so I am a little disappointed and stop playing for a bit.

 

Next time I get a chance to play, I have heard that there will be a Beta for a new FFXIV and that we can play 1.0 until that happens, so I think why not, I miss my Momo and his RP.  I do so for a while, I get into beta, I do that for a bit, then finally, Realm Reborn comes, and it isn't at the best time, but I strive to play as much as I can, and I do so without RP for a little while simply because I want to be able to build Momo up to be what I want before I start him again.  I choose to make him a PLD, lvl him up, work hard at it, as it wasn't quite as easy then to lvl as it is now.  I am further excited because wow, I managed to get something into my plot that I had planned all along, and I have some lvl to back it up, not 50 mind you, because I didn't want him to be the best, just to have been a PLD at some point.  I think, okay, time to come back now to RPC!  More excitement comes, because our community in the past has always been pretty great, lots of nice people willing to RP and be good with each other as much as an RP community can (I've RPed elsewhere, not the same I will tell you).

 

Here I am!  I have returned!  Momo lives once again!  I continue Momo's plot, and he is now let PLD go, and decided to go onto more academic routes and become a SMN/SCH!  I RP for a bit, build up friends and things, and have a generally good time.  Then I start to realize.  I may have made a mistake without knowing it all those years ago when I decided to be Tarutaru, then brought Momo to FFXIV as their correlative race, the Lalafell, because apparently the FFXIV RP community has a need to treat Lalafells with less respect than the other races.  I didn't really think about it before, but then when I went back and started to, I realized that was correct.  "Lore support" apparently means that, because Lalafells are small and cute, that we are maybe: kids, little pets, generally unfit to other races in the fields of romance and lo' and behold, physical endurance and strength.  My stomach sinks a little when I think about it each time because I didn't really choose to be a Lalafell, that is the character, and Momo has a mind of his own, as you would agree most of your characters do, and he doesn't really make sense as anything else.  So I should throw him out, or face the literal disrespect of my character because, "lore supports it" or "that is just how this world works"?

 

I guess what this whole story was about, is that until I recently came back to RPC, before I started posting again, more when I started reading through threads.  I realized that something about my character which I didn't like, was apparently forced on to him, and that many RPers supported it because they just don't feel like it hurts anyone and they have "reasons" to back it up.  It doesn't seem astounding to you probably if you aren't Lalafell, or don't have a Lalafell character, because, well honestly, Lalafell are unique characters who are often played by pretty unique people.  If that weren't the case, we probably would be a much bigger category in the RPC Race pole of which we are last or nearly last place.  We feel like we fit in as Lalas in this community, or that we are at least supposed to.  We are entirely different than other races, but we don't feel like that makes us deserve a less fair treatment for our characters.  So, when another RPer does not play a Lalafell main character, decides it would be relevant to post a thread trying to discredit yet another of our race's abilities or treatments in the world, it kind of gets to us.  I think that is probably the case of some of the Lala's in this thread who have posted and then had to come back and say we are sorry for not giving merit to a thread that discredits us and how we handle our characters.

 

I guess the above paragraph can be written off by just saying, "Ah well, don't play Momo as a Lalafell, or just don't play Momo at all if it is that hard on you?", but then I will pose whether Momo just isn't as important to me, as all the characters I see around, with a thousand pics with friends and selifes, and hard earned money spent to have specific art done for them, or done for your character out of the love of an artist who enjoys him/her? Am I not allowed to have the love for my character that others have for theirs because I "chose" to be a Lalafell or because Momo did?

 

From another view, there are many different cases in which the general populace of Ala Mhigo (predominantly of Highlander race) seem to be unintelligent, but I, as a Lalafell RPer, have yet to post a thread using lore or dismissing cases to the opposite, that reads: "Ala Mhigans, Should They Treated as Intelligent People?".  Because guess what, on a case by case basis, sure an Ala Mhigan Highlander could be dumb, but there are also cases of the opposite, and it would be up to each individual RPer to decide that, particularly when it is a race that I do not play, and wouldn't understand how to handle personally.  I would also feel as if I meant to insult that race or peoples otherwise, because I have no standing with them for the most part.

 

One last thing.  When a fighting event is hosted on the grounds and by the rules of rolling randoms, do you include Lalafells because by random roll we could win a battle even bare-handed, or because, for all intents and purposes within the game and shown by lore, we can fight at just the same skill level and strength of races 2-3 times our size, and we deserve just the same treatment as other races?  Or does that last option seem somehow "unfair" to you?

[Warren Castille]

stuff

 

The concept of the thread (that was likely diluted in the pages of conversation that followed the original post) was asking whether or not there was any in-game lore to support that a lalafell could lift another race over their head and throw them like they were playing Super Mario Brothers 2.

 

I've got no problem with lalafell winning hand to hand combat, I just ask that they don't suddenly start picking up and throwing someone who outweighs them by orders of magnitude.

[111]

 

I've got no problem with lalafell winning hand to hand combat, I just ask that they don't suddenly start picking up and throwing someone who outweighs them by orders of magnitude.

 

As long as you ask nicely, they probably won't.

 

Remember to say 'please'

[Warren Castille]

 

I've got no problem with lalafell winning hand to hand combat, I just ask that they don't suddenly start picking up and throwing someone who outweighs them by orders of magnitude.

 

As long as you ask nicely, they probably won't.

 

Remember to say 'please'

 

Not in my vocab!

 

Also, regarding the Grindstone: We've had housewives with frying pans reach the semi-finals in the past! There's a reason we use the phrase "Every night is anyone's night."

[Momo]

Yes, but as you read at the end, that is simply because you allow anyone who rolls well to win, nothing to do with actual strength or armor and weapons, so basically you are equating a Lalafell's chance of winning hand to hand combat to a woman in a bikini top, skirt, with a garden shovel.  If it were actual RP, with no roll to support actions, you could never work out with a Lalafell RPer, that your big strong manly character couldn't be overpowered or beaten by a Lalafell barehanded, because there is "no lore to support that, except the strength of "one-off" characters in the story who are apparently extraordinary compared to a normal Lalafell"...still don't get it.

 

That right there tells me I shouldn't ever try, nor should I ever support others to try this tournament, because I simply have been allowed to win as the leader has "looked the other way" because of RPG rules.  Reminds me of when people ask me to donate blood, slightly opposite, but only less upsetting because it is irl and not ig, when they ask me to help them, but then when they ask if I have slept with men before, and I need to say no, or otherwise they can't accept my blood.

 

 

(Not that you have ever asked me personally to come, nor would I assume you to do that, particularly after this bit of discourse)

[Dravus]

I may be wrong but it often feels very much like some people use 'realism' as an excuse to push their own personal power fantasy. No matter what MMO I've invested in for role-play I've often seen people argue that 'realistically' the bigger races should almost always beat the smaller races in a straight up fight.

 

The thing is, this is pushed by some people even when there's examples given to the contrary and even when people try to explain that the same realism we'd apply to the real world doesn't necessarily carry the same weight in a heroic fantasy setting.

 

On the subject of the real world, however, it's worth noting that there's average women who have managed to lift up a car through sheer will and adrenaline when their child has been endangered. I can quite easily envision something similar happening in a fight between a lalafell and a roegadyn.

 

To be honest, I'm getting very weary of the ridiculous 'highlander/roegadyn master race ' crap that seems to lurk beneath the surface within this community. Bigger isn't necessarily better - especially in a fantasy setting.

 

Besides, I'd like to think quite a lot of people invest in role-play for the sake of fun and not stroking other people's egos to perpetuate what often comes across as little more than a power fantasy.

 

For clarity, this isn't aimed at anybody in particular and is more a general message to the community based on what I've seen in-game.

 

On a side note, I do wonder if people shy away from role-playing lalafell because of the uphill struggle they often have to be taken seriously. It isn't a whole lot of fun when a character isn't allowed to score a victory - and roll fights alone aren't a fair system in every case since they usually revolve around leaving things up to chance rather than establishing that a smaller character can, in fact, beat a larger character in a straight up fight.

[Warren Castille]

Yes, but as you read at the end, that is simply because you allow anyone who rolls well to win, nothing to do with actual strength or armor and weapons, so basically you are equating a Lalafell's chance of winning hand to hand combat to a woman in a bikini top, skirt, with a garden shovel.  If it were actual RP, with no roll to support actions, you could never work out with a Lalafell RPer, that your big strong manly character couldn't be overpowered or beaten by a Lalafell barehanded, because there is "no lore to support that, except the strength of "one-off" characters in the story who are apparently extraordinary compared to a normal Lalafell"...still don't get it.

 

That right there tells me I shouldn't ever try, nor should I ever support others to try this tournament, because I simply have been allowed to win as the leader has "looked the other way" because of RPG rules.  Reminds me of when people ask me to donate blood, slightly opposite, but only less upsetting because it is irl and not ig, when they ask me to help them, but then when they ask if I have slept with men before, and I need to say no, or otherwise they can't accept my blood.

 

 

(Not that you have ever asked me personally to come, nor would I assume you to do that, particularly after this bit of discourse)

 

In combat roleplay especially, I believe in making your opponent look good. It's the wrestling mark in me, if I had to guess: I want to see good storytelling. Warren's lost in combat lots and lots of times, and making it look "real" is something I've always strived to do. Regarding Lalafell, it's a lot of overestimating attack arcs and angles (since he doesn't fight a lot of teensy people, so it's not easy for him to adjust) and lots of being clumsier than someone so much lower to the ground.

 

I'm not sure if you're using the universal "you" or calling me out specifically, but ask Chachanji (Gegenji on the forums, a promiment lalafell roleplayer) how his newbie-lalapaladin went against my grizzled highlander veteran.

 

 

One hit landed. It wasn't Warren's.

 

 

I try to be as "fair" as one can be in terms of combat roleplay. If the dice say you get beat up, it's on the person rolling to get beat up. Writing off an entire event (that usually sees dozens of people taking part) because you're making assumptions on behalf of the leader (that are pretty baseless, given my point of the thread) seems like a missed chance at fun roleplay.

 

Edit: To reiterate, I've got no problem taking my lumps from lalafell, and I have in the past. I just ask that they don't do this kind of bullshit to someone bigger than them.

 

[Dat Oni]

This is why Koporo turns the tables and employs such tactics as landing on enemy blades, climbing on their backs, beating up their heads, and breaking their legs. It's also why he carries weapons made specifically to destroy certain parts of the body. He knows he's at a disadvantage most of the time, so he plays the part of saboteur. He destroys them one piece at a time.

 

He realizes his size is, in fact, a handicap against a larger opponent, so he needs to even the odds.

 

THAT is realism. Acknowledging the size differences lend as many disadvantages as advantages. Most people who play the "realism" card only acknowledge it to the point that it justifies their power play.

 

There's realism, and then there's the excuse of "Anything to allow me to kick your ass."

[Caspar]

On a side note, I do wonder if people shy away from role-playing lalafell because of the uphill struggle they often have to be taken seriously. It isn't a whole lot of fun when a character isn't allowed to score a victory - and roll fights alone aren't a fair system in every case since they usually revolve around leaving things up to chance rather than establishing that a smaller character can, in fact, beat a larger character in a straight up fight.

This thread for instance, did not sour me on being Lalafell, but golly gee it did sour me on Highlanders!

 

Well, not really. It just always seems like when this issue is brought up, or just realism in general, it's always a Highlander, even when it's not Warren, lol. Forgive me if my tone is kinda biting, I'm tired of this subject.

 

I played the character I wanted to because I felt like it. The thread was interesting in that it made me more aware that a lot of people disrespect my character concept and others like it by its very nature, and that I should avoid playing with them, so in that sense it was very useful. ICly, I've rarely actually encountered people within my RP group that demonstrate these assumptions. Certainly, I've made allowances and explained why it's possible both OOC and ICly, and have never made light of innate disadvantages like reach, but to whom is it enough and to who is it not? Why make the effort? An overemphasis on grittiness in an innately unrealistic setting discourage people from taking the time to play a fanciful character, and regulates a segment of the setting to comic relief.

 

I have invoked the exceptional nature of my character, who is by all intents and purposes "superhuman," or "superlala" I guess, due to training, freakishness, and a long, pretty spoilery hidden backstory, to allow for things IC. I can see a lot of people would just innately not buy it, even with said explanations in place, no matter how I sell it to them. They have a solidly entrenched view of how realistic the setting ought to be. To those players, I will flip the bird and hover away on a plume of blue Elixir Field aether. Compared to what Monks do in setting, nothing of what I've demonstrated ICly is even remotely impossible, but this speaks of a very personal system of degrees.

 

Just for example, Warren can make the distinction, for instance, that someone throwing a larger being is unrealistic, and then argue that it's only extreme circumstances like this that he's against, but tacitly, what's being argued is that the race's strength is innately inferior in a significant way, as opposed to the canonically demonstrated way, which is minor. An explanation Warren would buy would not appeal to the next Baralander who insists everyone Fecht and MMA their way to victory outside of the sanctioned limits of /roll RP combat. And I don't see how someone can make a distinction between a small character using tremendous force to mist your head or shatter a cobalt breastplate than a small character using tremendous force to lift another character bodily. The latter is only "less plausible" because of the fact that the person above can stand up, but as far as I was able to discern from the thread, the issue wasn't with the body mechanics as much as the strength involved. Regardless, teasing out minor points like this is pretty irrelevant, as the setting is suffused with magical influences. None of it is impossible in the slightest way.

 

Other things can apply this too. Some would find the idea of a lala punching powerfully believable, but not any of the things Monks regularly do in the setting, canonically, or even things much less exotic, such as not even throwing hadoukens of aether but cutting with waves of air pressure, a really common fictional motif in Asian fantasy, to the point of being nearly pedestrian. Sure, I've got my biases, I watch Wuxia and enjoy a lot of anime that uses similar motifs to it, but a lot of what Monks do demonstrates superhuman strength, so why is it that practically every member of a caste of warriors, regardless of race (Lalafell Monks appear in MNK quests pretty regularly too.) demonstrates supernatural physical prowess canonically, but it is impossible for a Lalafell of unusual strength to knock a man over?

 

Because some players have already decided, before you ever played with them, that the Lala character is a joke. I see that, personally, as imprinting one's own subjective suspension of disbelief onto someone else's character. That's godmodding.

[Warren Castille]

valid stuffs

 

Again, the discussionargument got diluted a bit, but my OP does state aetherless/generic circumstances first. As soon as we involve backstories and chakras and the sort it muddles the field, absolutely.

 

I guess it's my own biases that lend to that: Virara is (to me) very much the Martial Arts Disciple, capable of the Five Palm Exploding Heart Technique and that sort of mysteriousness and danger that comes with kung fu tropes and stuff. You rarely see that sort of kung fu master fling people around by their ankles, though, especially not someone grossly larger.

 

...unless you do see that and my own (un)familiarity outside of the stereotypes is what's giving me my blinders on this subject. Basically, if someone's going to throw someone larger, I'd prefer (and this is the personal opinion, obviously) to see it come down to something more than grab+lift+hurl. To use myself as an example, I had Warren judo-throw Judge, both of them in full armor, but I made it a point to cite momentum and intention as opposed to something outright looking silly.

 

Work smarter, not harder, basically. Not aimed at you, and you know that I hope, but yeah.

 

To reiterate a point that got brought up I think a year ago when this was first discussed: The impetus for this thread was watching a lalafell at a fighting expo emote lifting a prone miqo'te by his belt, over the lala's head, and then trying to dart throw that miqo'te into a wall, all as one action. Try not to picture Mario 2.

 

Edit:

 

What are some certifiable, actually-sourced lore bits that say that lalafells are as strong as a Roe? I'm not asking for aether theories or Hydaelyn bits, and I also don't care about game-mechanics ("A lala war has the same strength as a highlander one!") for obvious balance reasons. I just want to know how the average lala is able to bench press as much as a and throw a punch able to knock down anyone who isn't also a lalafell.

[Caspar]

valid stuffs

 

Again, the discussionargument got diluted a bit, but my OP does state aetherless/generic circumstances first. As soon as we involve backstories and chakras and the sort it muddles the field, absolutely.

 

I guess it's my own biases that lend to that: Virara is (to me) very much the Martial Arts Disciple, capable of the Five Palm Exploding Heart Technique and that sort of mysteriousness and danger that comes with kung fu tropes and stuff. You rarely see that sort of kung fu master fling people around by their ankles, though, especially not someone grossly larger.

 

...unless you do see that and my own (un)familiarity outside of the stereotypes is what's giving me my blinders on this subject. Basically, if someone's going to throw someone larger, I'd prefer (and this is the personal opinion, obviously) to see it come down to something more than grab+lift+hurl. To use myself as an example, I had Warren judo-throw Judge, both of them in full armor, but I made it a point to cite momentum and intention as opposed to something outright looking silly.

 

Work smarter, not harder, basically. Not aimed at you, and you know that I hope, but yeah.

 

To reiterate a point that got brought up I think a year ago when this was first discussed: The impetus for this thread was watching a lalafell at a fighting expo emote lifting a prone miqo'te by his belt, over the lala's head, and then trying to dart throw that miqo'te into a wall, all as one action. Try not to picture Mario 2.

 

Edit:

 

What are some certifiable, actually-sourced lore bits that say that lalafells are as strong as a Roe? I'm not asking for aether theories or Hydaelyn bits, and I also don't care about game-mechanics ("A lala war has the same strength as a highlander one!") for obvious balance reasons. I just want to know how the average lala is able to bench press as much as a and throw a punch able to knock down anyone who isn't also a lalafell.

 

You can make as many allowances as you want, but what you're talking about is believability, and one excuse given ICly is not worth the same to different people. Mundane or no, the ridiculousness of the situation is what you're evaluating and that has as much to do with your own suspension of disbelief as it does theirs. I suppose you could blame the implausibility of the mental image for the entire topic of discussion, really, as it's mostly due to the writer creating a scenario where it shouldn't be possible due to the character standing up, and actual physical strength has nothing to do with it.

[Melkire]

[Admin Hardhat]

 

Welp. This was a huge necro and the only place left for this thread to go is back into the same circular arguments. I'm going to take the liberty of locking this. Any tangential discussioj should be had in a new thread. This one is played out.

 

[/Admin Hardhat]