Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal.

[Hammersmith]

Lalafells are about the size of young Goku in Dragonball. So if a Lalafell is good at combat, I sort of use that as a mental guideline of what they might be capable of.

 

 

Go for the tail!

*adds to his journal*

 

Lalas turn into giant murder apes.

[Flickering Ember]

I usually don't like bringing game mechanics into RP, often extremely so. I have seen this thread around for a while but never thought to post in it before. Some folks aren't convinced by the video that was posted here but I think it speaks for itself and what lalafells are capable of. On this point of discussion I referred to game mechanics simply because the alternative seems like walling off RP potential just for taking a certain race. I view it as if someone said "Your female fighter can't go toe to toe with a male one." If you try to explain it away as magic, I feel it discredits what that other person is trying to roleplay.

 

Fortunately, I can get away with being a muscled female character because that is expected with roegadyns. However, I have been in other games where I played female characters where their strength has been discredited because their character model looks smaller, despite me role-playing them as having a warrior's build.

 

I think it is worth considering the feats other creatures on our planet in real life can do. For example, man's best friend. Probably about the same height as a lalafell, depending on the breed but also able to take down adult men. There is also the ant, who is able to lift several times its size.

 

tl;dr if a lalafell can be a disciple of war then they should be just as capable. I definitely think that a lalafell warrior versus a roegadyn warrior will have different pros and cons to the type of physical strength they wield. Although, what precisely those differences are might be hard to pinpoint and may be preference based. It is up to the individual! It's a little too subjective to say hundred percent what a lalafell's strength means.

 

But then, most things involving the lore seem to have room for debate. I like merging realism into fantasy. I can see how someone might not be able to think of lalafells as having true physical strength. I suppose I just consider it to be one of those things where lalafells defer from humans.

 

When in doubt just remember: Lalafells are your equals!

[YesGood]

I'm fairly certain this debate is over, but I had a cent or two to contribute if it hasn't already been done.

We have this fairly easy to acquire bit of information:

 

"The short, rotund builds of the Lalafell belie an incredible agility, and their seemingly feeble legs are capable of carrying them long distances over any terrain. Many among them are also known for possessing highly developed and cunning intellects."

 

So we know that they're at least -very fast- just inherently. If we're looking at them and trying to relate them immediately to humans, imagine a child that size (a toddler, thereabouts) running 'long distances over -any- terrain' and obviously, that's not really something most toddlers can do. Lalafell are, though related to Hyur, their own race that has adapted different. They're small and apparently rotund. Who is to say that their musculature isn't simply different, more efficient, for bursts of speed that can (most importantly) be maintained, or for powerful impact given their size? Even if they can hit as hard as an untrained Midlander, that's incredible. And if they were to retrain/repurpose those muscles for combat rather than escaping, that could undoubtedly be accomplished-- but in all situations it would require training. Could a Lalafell rival the sheer strength of a Roegadyn equally dedicated to his or her martial training? Doubtful. A Midlander? Perhaps. They're obviously just far more physically capable than their closest 'real-life' equivalent (children) and how far that goes is debatable.

 

We saw the 'exceptions' of the miner brothers in 1.0 but that seems far more like examples. If you spend your life doing something, you'll probably get quite good at it. A full grown human man -might- be able to throw someone through closed doors and a few yards down a hallway as the brothers did, but the fact that someone around three feet tall managed it REGARDLESS of how much training they did seems telling that lesser feats of strength like wielding a heavy (proportionate) axe with precision or flipping someone over (especially given your remarkably low center of gravity) is probably possible even if the other lalafell in question isn't as powerful as those examples.

 

"Well, if they could be that powerful, why isn't it mentioned?" People assume Miqo'te have better hearing and eyesight than I've found any evidence to believe. All that's mentioned is their strong legs and their olfactory sense. That seems to indicate, not that miqo'te can't hear or see better than your typical Hyur, but that of their traits the most characteristic is that one or two that sets the standard against other races. Lalafell aren't as strong as Roegadyn. What's the point in mentioning where their strength level is for the developers, so long as it's not 'the strongest'? There isn't a scale they've released that gives us any way to gauge every race's powers in relation to the others, except this:

 

http://www.ffxivguild.com/racial-stats-and-god-stats-guide/

 

Which lists Plainsfolk strength EQUAL to Keeper of the Moon strength and barely beneath Wildwood, Duskwight and-- Hellsguard? Wait. So you're saying a Hellsguard is weaker than a Midlander? And both are weaker than Highlanders? 

 

Yeah, so, my theory is that they're probably capable of being pretty freaking strong but since they're inclined to use their cunning and high-speed intelligence, they spend more time getting smart and haggling on average than working out. 

 

TL;DR Lalafell are probably capable of being super-powered for their size, equivalent to Hyur or maybe slightly greater on average, given their small stature and muscular capacity to produce high, sustained speeds. They probably are being but can't be compared to Hyur children despite their stature.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I support Lalafell being as strong/capable as any other race in combat. But I don't think their abilities are a 100% identical comparison.

 

Imagine the following Scenario: A Lalafell picking up a Highlander Male

 

What's the first thing you envision? Is the Highlander planking? Did the Lalafell somehow find a way to get the Highlander to stand up straight and balance him?

 

Or do you think if they were having a fight, the Highlander would just put his arms legs down, because he's like 2-3 times the height of the Lalafell and a little 3 fulm tall person cannot possibly fully life a 6 fulm person off the ground completely?

 

Sure, a particularly strong Lalafell could pick up -the legs- of said Highlander Male. Could drag him away, just like the 1.0 Miner video. But a supplex or deadlift? Highly unlikiely unless the Highlander was playing along.

 

Of course, anyone who's played Super Mario 64 knows the highlander could clearly have been grabbed by his bowser-like tail that doesn't exist legs and spun around to throw him, I guess.

[Branson Thorne]

The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

[Warren Castille]

Physics, physics physics.

 

 

 

One of these things is not like the other ones.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

 

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth

[Gegenji]

Sure, a particularly strong Lalafell could pick up -the legs- of said Highlander Male. Could drag him away, just like the 1.0 Miner video. But a supplex or deadlift? Highly unlikiely unless the Highlander was playing along.

 

Deadlift maybe, but it wouldn't be much of an achievement. The Highlander is being dead-lifted, what, two/three feet off the ground tops? As you mentioned, just moving your legs or arms could probably help you reach ground again. Which means the deadlift would likely only work if it proceeded quickly into something else before the larger individual has time to react. Lift and then throw, or lift and then drop them back down on a knee or something (which would be its own problem due to dimensions, but feasible, I suppose).

 

I am greatly amused by the idea of a Lalafell lifting up a dude by one leg and just caber-tossing the dude while he's still surprised and flailing about, though. Mostly because it reminds me vaguely of a fight in World's Greatest Disciple Kenichi where Kenichi lifts and then hurls a Sumo Wrestler out of a sunken ring. I tried to look up a clip of just the fight but all I can get is some AMVs. Still, I'll include one for entertainment value (the throw in question is about two minutes in if you'd like to cut straight to it):

 

I0XJkkCSp4Q

 

Just imagine Kenichi being a little popoto and we're good. Again, though, does this mean anything? Not really. Amuses me, though.

[Branson Thorne]

The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

 

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth

True, but I was referring to brute force over actual law of physics.

 

For instance, a Midget punches a pumpkin, compared to lets see, a WWE wrestler.

 

EDIT: And I'm not even saying that's how it should be in FFXIV, it's just what I imagine.

[Warren Castille]

You guys have no idea how hard it is to find a gif of a small person dropkicking a grown person.

[Gegenji]

The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

 

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth

True, but I was referring to brute force over actual  law of physics.

 

For instance, a Midget punches a pumpkin, compared to lets see, a WWE wrestler.

 

Still, from a mechanical standpoint (and I suppose a lore standpoint as well?) a Lalafell of similar class, level, stats, and gear can take an equal amount of punishment as any other race. Obviously this is just for proper gamification, but there's nothing saying that a Lalafell being punched in the face will be any better or worse off any anyone else being punched in the face.

 

Basically, my question in regards to your statement is this: What is different in their cranial structures that would make a Lalafell being punched in the face by a Roe any different from that same Roe punching a Hyur in the face?

 

The point of contention, I believe, is more of a matter of dimensions (Using Franz's example: a Lalafell would not be able to suplex a Highlander) and possible muscle strength per ponze compared to the other races. In fact, I would posit that the Roe would be more likely to try and kick said Lalafell in the face rather than trying to get low enough to punch them - since the Lalafell's size has been noted as both a benefit and a drawback in combat.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Sure, a particularly strong Lalafell could pick up -the legs- of said Highlander Male. Could drag him away, just like the 1.0 Miner video. But a suplex or deadlift? Highly unlikely unless the Highlander was playing along.

 

Deadlift maybe, but it wouldn't be much of an achievement. The Highlander is being dead-lifted, what, two/three feet off the ground tops? As you mentioned, just moving your legs or arms could probably help you reach ground again. Which means the deadlift would likely only work if it proceeded quickly into something else before the larger individual has time to react. Lift and then throw, or lift and then drop them back down on a knee or something (which would be its own problem due to dimensions, but feasible, I suppose).

 

I am greatly amused by the idea of a Lalafell lifting up a dude by one leg and just caber-tossing the dude while he's still surprised and flailing about, though. Mostly because it reminds me vaguely of a fight in World's Greatest Disciple Kenichi where Kenichi lifts and then hurls a Sumo Wrestler out of a sunken ring. I tried to look up a clip of just the fight but all I can get is some AMVs. Still, I'll include one for entertainment value (the throw in question is about two minutes in if you'd like to cut straight to it):

 

I0XJkkCSp4Q

 

Just imagine Kenichi being a little popoto and we're good. Again, though, does this mean anything? Not really. Amuses me, though.

 

That seems consistent with my thoughts. And mildly entertaining to see animated. (I'd imagine it could be done, assuming the Highlander didn't flail about and disrupt the center of gravity and just topple them over.) ((Or on another note, I could see a kick or stomp going terribly wrong as the Highlander gets launched after making an easy opening))

[Warren Castille]

Still, from a mechanical standpoint (and I suppose a lore standpoint as well?) a Lalafell of similar class, level, stats, and gear can take an equal amount of punishment as any other race. Obviously this is just for proper gamification, but there's nothing saying that a Lalafell being punched in the face will be any better or worse off any anyone else being punched in the face.

 

Basically, my question in regards to your statement is this: What is different in their cranial structures that would make a Lalafell being punched in the face by a Roe any different from that same Roe punching a Hyur in the face?

 

The point of contention, I believe, is more of a matter of dimensions (Using Franz's example: a Lalafell would not be able to suplex a Highlander) and possible muscle strength per ponze compared to the other races. In fact, I would posit that the Roe would be more likely to try and kick said Lalafell in the face rather than trying to get low enough to punch them - since the Lalafell's size has been noted as both a benefit and a drawback in combat.

 

Grindstone warning.

 

The devil is in the details. I don't think there's an issue with any given lalafell defeating any given . The debate comes from "well lalafell soak damage just like everyone else, and do damage just like everyone else." That's boring and makes for boring combat encounters. The main strength of a lalafell is the small stature. Accepting that and then saying "but no, they also punch just as hard as anyone else" completely ignores the interesting room you've got to work in there. A lalafell can accept X damage before going down and a roe can accept the same amount, but the difference should be in how it's sold. Let successful attacks on the lalafell be staggering, forceful blows. Let the knock-out be the kick that sends them flying. Don't soak damage by just blocking and no-selling, take damage by rolling and dodging (or being hit and then rebounding in the air, all dex-like).

 

Similarly, the roe should be getting hit EVERY ROUND even when successful in defending. He's the size of a barn comparatively, it makes sense for him to get hit. He should just be able to soak the damage, and let the lalafell beat him with the death of a thousand cuts. Knees and ankles, groin and kidneys. You don't cut down a tree by attacking at the canopy.

 

On the topic of facepunches, though: Lalafell heads are round, kinda bulbous and lack, erm, features. Tiny button noses. Teeny mouths. Compare that to my big fat angular highlander face, full of breakable and bustable pieces and parts. A lalafell taking a straight punch to the dome would probably do less damage simply because there's less to damage! A highlander taking a punch has a big ol' schnoz to get broken, even if the "damage" is less.

 

tl;dr: Be more creative than "lol no i suplex u"

[Flickering Ember]

The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

 

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth

True, but I was referring to brute force over actual  law of physics.

 

For instance, a Midget punches a pumpkin, compared to lets see, a WWE wrestler.

 

Still, from a mechanical standpoint (and I suppose a lore standpoint as well?) a Lalafell of similar class, level, stats, and gear can take an equal amount of punishment as any other race. Obviously this is just for proper gamification, but there's nothing saying that a Lalafell being punched in the face will be any better or worse off any anyone else being punched in the face.

 

Basically, my question in regards to your statement is this: What is different in their cranial structures that would make a Lalafell being punched in the face by a Roe any different from that same Roe punching a Hyur in the face?

 

The point of contention, I believe, is more of a matter of dimensions (Using Franz's example: a Lalafell would not be able to suplex a Highlander) and possible muscle strength per ponze compared to the other races. In fact, I would posit that the Roe would be more likely to try and kick said Lalafell in the face rather than trying to get low enough to punch them - since the Lalafell's size has been noted as both a benefit and a drawback in combat.

Regardless of one's thoughts on lalafell's physical strength, they do have to at the very least be capable of bringing and taking as much pain as other races. If not, then how could lalafells possibly stack up in society? 

 

If lalafells could not match the other races in combat then why would they allow them to fight? Better yet, why bring anything but a roegadyn to a fight? The size difference between Ember and miqo'te is often hilarious.

 

How and why lalafells achieve that is difficult to say. I believe that is a flavor that the lalafell Rper can come up with for themselves, seeing as any in game explanation is relatively minor.

[Branson Thorne]

Hold up your fist.

Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

 

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

 

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

 

Another example if you will. Pretend there is a paper wall in front of you. Pick up a small mortar brick and throw it through the paper wall. Now do the same with a standard cement block. Which did the most damage?

 

And again, I understand that this is all based on a real life system, and FFXIV is a fantasy game, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that realistically, it's impossible if everything is even-stevens.

[Gegenji]

The devil is in the details. I don't think there's an issue with any given lalafell defeating any given . The debate comes from "well lalafell soak damage just like everyone else, and do damage just like everyone else."

 

That sounds about right to me. Lalafell can and should approach combat differently than the taller races, just as other races likely can and should approach combat against them. This would apply to a lesser degree to the other races too - we saw a hidden Au Ra using their tail and claws pretty effectively in combat in the last Grindstone. That's a physiological difference that needs to be accounted for too.

 

I will say, though, that while just as straight absorbing the blow is pretty boring... so too could be watching your opponent go flying with every single hit. It wouldn't be much fun for the Lalafell combatant either, I'd figure ("Oops, I got hit. Well, looks like I go flying again."). I could see a Lalafell absorbing or deflecting some of the strike, as long as it's done in an understandable and reasonable fashion.

 

Take Chachan for example. Yeah, he'd barely break 50 ponze dripping wet (and I'm not even sure if he's properly weighed - not sure how heavy a muscly little dude like him would actually weigh)... but he's also wearing a full suit of cobalt armor on top of it. So he'll certainly skid and stagger and stumble when a good meaty hit lands on him, but I would figure he wouldn't go airborne as easily as some folks would figure.

[Branson Thorne]

I would figure he wouldn't go airborne as easily as some folks would figure.

I agree, try kicking a 50lbs feed bag and see how that goes.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Hold up your fist.

Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

 

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

 

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

 

Another example if you will. Pretend there is a paper wall in front of you. Pick up a small mortar brick and throw it through the paper wall. Now do the same with a standard cement block. Which did the most damage?

 

And again, I understand that this is all based on a real life system, and FFXIV is a fantasy game, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that realistically, it's impossible if everything is even-stevens.

 

Assuming a lalafell fist and a highlander first both come at my face, I think I'd take the highlander one though.

 

Pressure = Force / Area. That lala fist is gonna hurt way more.

[Branson Thorne]

Hold up your fist.

Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

 

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

 

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

 

Another example if you will. Pretend there is a paper wall in front of you. Pick up a small mortar brick and throw it through the paper wall. Now do the same with a standard cement block. Which did the most damage?

 

And again, I understand that this is all based on a real life system, and FFXIV is a fantasy game, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that realistically, it's impossible if everything is even-stevens.

 

Assuming a lalafell fist and a highlander first both come at my face, I think I'd take the highlander one though.

 

Pressure = Force / Area. That lala fist is gonna hurt way more.

I'm not really sure how to argue that a broken nose is worse then a broken nose, a shattered jaw and 2 black eyes lol

[Gegenji]

 

Hold up your fist.

Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

 

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

 

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

 

 

If it's hitting with the same force and velocity, wouldn't the smaller actually be more dangerous? That's focusing more energy on a single point rather than spread out over a larger fist's area. I'm thinking cannonball versus bullet here, and could easily be way off the mark.

 

But, as you also stated, this is if things are "even-steven." Can we readily assume that? Maybe Lalafell are physically denser than we give them credit for. Or their musculature allows them to absorb blows more readily. I doubt SE put that much thought into it, though.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Hold up your fist.

Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

 

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

 

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

 

Another example if you will. Pretend there is a paper wall in front of you. Pick up a small mortar brick and throw it through the paper wall. Now do the same with a standard cement block. Which did the most damage?

 

And again, I understand that this is all based on a real life system, and FFXIV is a fantasy game, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that realistically, it's impossible if everything is even-stevens.

 

Assuming a lalafell fist and a highlander first both come at my face, I think I'd take the highlander one though.

 

Pressure = Force / Area. That lala fist is gonna hurt way more.

I'm not really sure how to argue that a broken nose is worse then a broken nose, a shattered jaw and 2 black eyes lol

 

Because at that same force, a Highlander's bigger hand is going to give less pressure than a Lalafell's?

 

The classic debate was always an elephant stop vs a woman in high heels. Assuming a constant/equal force, it still has to be exerted on an area. With a small area to exert that force on, a Lalafell's hand is gonna do -that area- much more damage because it doesn't need to be spread out.

 

Perhaps I know nothing about fighting, but I also can't see how a single punch of a fist could get the jaw, eyes, and nose.

[Gegenji]

I think the point Franz is trying to make is that the more focused punch would apply more energy to that one point as opposed to spreading over a larger fist's surface area. To wit, a Lalafell's punch to the jaw with the same force would theoretically be more likely to break that jaw than a Highlander's because all that energy is more concentrated on that one point on the jaw. This is, again, assuming that both are hitting with the exact same force, which a Lalafell may or may not have to put more effort into.

[Warren Castille]

An angry man grabs you by the wrist, places your hand flat on a table and drives the instrument he's holding down straight into the back of it with all of his might.

 

What side do you want facing down?

 

[Melkire]

The side of the wooden handle.

[Harmonixer]

I swear we need an fourth wall breaking Mythbusters crew for this game.

 

So, this isn't an incredibly flattering story but I'll share it as best I can.

 

When I was younger and in highschool I thought it brilliant to spit some game at a fine young lady in the seat behind me. Much to my surprise, her very short, stocky brother was within earshot.

 

While she was quite charmed by my dashing advances, he was not. So, when the bell rang, I felt a tiny, yet burly pair of arms wrap around my legs, lifting me up off the ground. Before I realized it, I had been deposited in a nearby trashcan and informed that I was to rethink my decision.

 

If it had not happened to me, I never would have believed it. I stand at around 6' and that fellow could not have been more than 5'nothing.

 

 

I never exchanged blows with this guy myself, but I witnessed several occasions where braver ones that myself did. They did not end well, many times it was hardly amusing and almost horrifying.

 

I wouldn't say this closes the book on it, but it's since tainted my opinion on the subject.

 

'Don't fuck with the little guy'