Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon?

[Kellach Woods]

If memory serves me correctly (along with XIVDB's dialogue logs from class quests), nowhere in the WAR job quests is it stated or even implied that anything a warrior does is based on aether. Their skills are described as ancient techniques, and the inner beast is implied to be a trance-like berserker state, some sort of primal rage that lies buried deep within. The relic armor is outright stated to be imbued with arcane enchantments, yes, but that's about as magical as it gets when it comes to Warrior.

 

More or less spot-on with Monk, though, barring some simplification.

 

It not being stated directly doesn't mean it won't turn out to be the case (also why I said likely - I've done those quests and know there's no mention of aether. Curious Gorge's also kind of an idiot). Yes, it's simplified because it was meant to be a super simple gross simplification.

 

Also, consider that warriors' only power is getting hit the face. That's sad.

[Kage]

I mean, some fantasy books do use real life logic! Even though there are gods who actually do make their appearances and aren't just faith based... Or magic. Or Jewels that can wreak havoc on a kingdom's enemy but which will also wreak havoc on the land's harvest.

 

Or the lady knights still having to deal with them monthlies.

 

Even if they have magicked jewelry birth control.

My point is that, yes it's fantasy. But there's still -something- for us to use to belief. Many of us prefer to use real life as that supplement. Not everyone can suspend their sense of belief so easily. Not everyone can accept "fantasy!" because there are many elements in fantasy worlds that are, SURPRISE, still relatable and believable for us.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

I've done some "black mage" rp as well as sword and board -and- PAUNNNNNCH in FFXIV but I always try to think about what makes sense in -my- mind as well as that of those I RP with. If it's not going to jive I simply strive to make sure that doesn't become an issue or do not actively pursue to RP with them.

[Erik Mynhier]

I am sorry.......

 

I am so sorry......

 

I tried to fight the urge.......

 

But I can't anymore......

 

[video=youtube]

[Val]

My argument against a dragoon's jump is that there's a point where they're taking a vertical leap. It's unrealistic to assume that the person being jumped at will just stay in one place. The person moves to the side, so what then? The Dragoon already made the attack--they've already committed to the jump. They can't just change directions in air, unless they can somehow fly or something. This is where "Dragoons fight dragons" comes into play. The dragon is a large, slow creature. They either lead their target or they strike while it's on the ground and can't move quickly. The powerful, downward fall would be enough to pierce the dragon's skin and cause a great deal of damage with their spear. It's the whole point of their attacks, and it's why there's a ton of dragons in Coerthas (you know, with the dragoons). It's also kind of why they are named dragoons. 

 

The game description itself states: “Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon. Born amidst the timeless conflict between men and dragons, these lance-wielding knights have developed an aerial style of combat, that they might better pierce the scaled hides of their mortal foes."

 

 

Everything else has already pretty much been stated and clarified =)

[TheShii]

a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol

 

either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.

[Kellach Woods]

don't care what y'all think.

 

we need more dragoon on dragoon violence to confirm.

 

GOTTA GET MY WUXIA ON.

[Warren Castille]

My argument against a dragoon's jump is that there's a point where they're taking a vertical leap. It's unrealistic to assume that the person being jumped at will just stay in one place. The person moves to the side, so what then? The Dragoon already made the attack--they've already committed to the jump. They can't just change directions in air, unless they can somehow fly or something. This is where "Dragoons fight dragons" comes into play. The dragon is a large, slow creature. They either lead their target or they strike while it's on the ground and can't move quickly. The powerful, downward fall would be enough to pierce the dragon's skin and cause a great deal of damage with their spear. It's the whole point of their attacks, and it's why there's a ton of dragons in Coerthas (you know, with the dragoons). It's also kind of why they are named dragoons. 

 

The game description itself states: “Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon. Born amidst the timeless conflict between men and dragons, these lance-wielding knights have developed an aerial style of combat, that they might better pierce the scaled hides of their mortal foes."

 

 

Everything else has already pretty much been stated and clarified =)

 

The fins on the AF and the relic weapon are stated to help a dragoon control and aim their descent. That's not terribly unrealistic, especially since we see exactly how flexible the armor is in the Heavensward trailer (look again when Midlander is putting the gauntlet on at how many fins/spikes/moving pieces there are! It looks more like techarmor than not). The real question comes down to "how much control." The ability to home in on a moving target that's mansized is... Pretty powerful in the scheme of things.

 

Strawman: "You can't hit me because I jumped, and then I landed on you and then jumped again."

 

I don't think anyone would find it unreasonable that the attack can be guided, but I don't think anyone would find it reasonable that the attack is perfectly accurate.

 

Edit:

a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol

 

either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.

 

*cough*

[Berrod Armstrong]

 They can't just change directions in air, unless they can somehow fly or something. 

While I don't really see the point of a dragoon jumping to attack a lalafell pugilist or something, I'm not gonna outright stop someone from emoting it. They just better be damn well prepared for the pugilist to end up evading it.

 

Also, on the topic of changing direction mid air, isn't that what the little wings on the Gaebolg (and replicas) are for? Not that I expect all dragoons to have that sort of thing, but the mechanism IS available for a slight change of direction if the player is reasonable and creative enough. I admit I eyerolled when I read the thing on Gaebolg, and I eyerolled when I saw someone I used to roleplay with use it. But that's just me.

 

That said, there are a few jumps that I would allow against my character in combat based on what I've seen so far, and fights I've enjoyed. There was an opponent who did a spineshatter dive and described it as a concussive impact -- so that when he missed, the concussion still affected poor Berrod. The other jump he used was EVASIVE (though I joked about his character being animation locked and getting hit anyway) -- he used his jump to AVOID being hit with something and I got a kick out of it. Things like that -- stretch the fantasy creative muscles without going overboard with SUPAR ULTRAR abilities. Sure! Do your high speed aerial thing, but make it work, give it openings, believable advantages and effects...leave it so that the opponent can take it, work with it and build on the mutual narrative of battle.

 

BUUUUT, that applies to more than just Dragoons though.

[Kellach Woods]

The fins on the AF and the relic weapon are stated to help a dragoon control and aim their descent. That's not terribly unrealistic, especially since we see exactly how flexible the armor is in the Heavensward trailer (look again when Midlander is putting the gauntlet on at how many fins/spikes/moving pieces there are! It looks more like techarmor than not). The real question comes down to "how much control." The ability to home in on a moving target that's mansized is... Pretty powerful in the scheme of things.

That's assuming they're wearing it though - Granted, any dragoon RPer would chomp at wearing the AF but still.

 

Also, just saying, they get hit by a Jump, they're skewered regardless of how tough their armor is. So anyone not dodging that shit and just no selling it is about as bad as the DRG using Jump against a human, unrestrained opponent.

 

Unless they're gonna start pretending their armor (and their inner organs from the blow) are tougher than dragon scales.

[Warren Castille]

The fins on the AF and the relic weapon are stated to help a dragoon control and aim their descent. That's not terribly unrealistic, especially since we see exactly how flexible the armor is in the Heavensward trailer (look again when Midlander is putting the gauntlet on at how many fins/spikes/moving pieces there are! It looks more like techarmor than not). The real question comes down to "how much control." The ability to home in on a moving target that's mansized is... Pretty powerful in the scheme of things.

That's assuming they're wearing it though - Granted, any dragoon RPer would chomp at wearing the AF but still.

 

Also, just saying, they get hit by a Jump, they're skewered regardless of how tough their armor is. So anyone not dodging that shit and just no selling it is about as bad as the DRG using Jump against a human, unrestrained opponent.

 

Unless they're gonna start pretending their armor (and their inner organs from the blow) are tougher than dragon scales.

 

If someone takes the full-bore attack from a lance with fifty~ fulms of downward momentum, sure, but when does anyone ever take a full hit in RP? Just because the attack is centered on someone doesn't mean it lands. It's not unreasonable to see a greataxe or a shield playing baseball with a dragoon, using the flat side of the weapon to divert the attack. It would turn the jump into a flying shoulder tackle and have the side benefit of asking the question "what happens to a lance when it gets driven into the ground with the full weight of the user behind it?" that would have to be answered.

 

Whether or not that constitutes no-selling is another thing, but it's as-reasonable a defense as you're going to get against physics-defying flying pinpoint-precise rocket jumps fueled by inner-dragons-and-or-aether.

[Kellach Woods]

If you're actually doing something to avoid it/deflect/etc. then no it wouldn't be I think.

[Warren Castille]

If you're actually doing something to avoid it/deflect/etc. then no it wouldn't be I think.

 

I abide by the Exalted rules of superpowered combat: Perfect defenses trump perfect attacks, full stop.

[Berrod Armstrong]

If you're actually doing something to avoid it/deflect/etc. then no it wouldn't be I think.

 

I abide by the Exalted rules of superpowered combat: Perfect defenses trump perfect attacks, full stop.

Unless you apply the rule of 'get one's ass beaten one-sidedly until someone talks about the power of friendship'...

[Gegenji]

If you're actually doing something to avoid it/deflect/etc. then no it wouldn't be I think.

 

I abide by the Exalted rules of superpowered combat: Perfect defenses trump perfect attacks, full stop.

Unless you apply the rule of 'get one's ass beaten one-sidedly until someone talks about the power of friendship'...

 

Shoot. You've cracked Chachan's battle plan. Abort, ABORT.

[Oli!]

If you're actually doing something to avoid it/deflect/etc. then no it wouldn't be I think.

 

I abide by the Exalted rules of superpowered combat: Perfect defenses trump perfect attacks, full stop.

Unless you apply the rule of 'get one's ass beaten one-sidedly until someone talks about the power of friendship'...

 

Shoot. You've cracked Chachan's battle plan. Abort, ABORT.

 

FOOL

 

YOU DON'T ABORT IN THIS SITUATION, THAT'S WHAT HAX ARE FOR

 

WHAT KIND OF MASTERMIND ARE YOU

[Kage]

If you're actually doing something to avoid it/deflect/etc. then no it wouldn't be I think.

 

I abide by the Exalted rules of superpowered combat: Perfect defenses trump perfect attacks, full stop.

Unless you apply the rule of 'get one's ass beaten one-sidedly until someone talks about the power of friendship'...

 

Shoot. You've cracked Chachan's battle plan. Abort, ABORT.

 

FOOL

 

YOU DON'T ABORT IN THIS SITUATION, THAT'S WHAT HAX ARE FOR

 

WHAT KIND OF MASTERMIND ARE YOU

Chachan! Here is your HAX!

[LiveVoltage]

*wonders what Chaos I walked into*

 

>_>

 

*walks right back out, lol.*

 

 

But to answer you're question about Dragoons, Dragoon is a cool class with a unique design concept for their skills and ability's but they suffer from Bad RPer syndrome for a number of reason which I will touch on one or two of them briefly. That does not mean however that there are no good Dragoon RPers. Some are really good at it.

 

The first is that Dragoon is a terribly race locked class, pretty much exclusive to people (aside from the MPC) from Ishgard, since they are awfully xenophobic to outsiders. The general population of Ishgard is pretty much Hyur and Elezen but most people who RP dragoon's tend to be a place that is not Ishgard or is not a race that is native to Ishgard so working around and bending the lore of Ishgard at this point becomes pretty difficult to do.

 

Another thing it suffers from is an attraction to noob RPers or RPers with a poor experience for it or are #GodModeMarySuesThatKillEverythingWithAJump. Reason is it 's because Dragoon is a very attractive, cool and powerful class. Thus bad RP Dragoons kinda litter the scene as a result.

 

 

[Yssen]

 

 

That, though, opens up interesting concepts. The title "Dragoon" is only bestowed on people who kill dragons officially. Not everyone killing dragons uses a spear, nor do all of them done the armor. There's a whole frontline in Whitebrim where a FATE spawns and you've got elezen in sword and shield running to defend. If Jump is just martial prowess magnified by aether, it stands to reason that anybody would be able to learn the attack.

Not tryng to be mean here, but Heavensward trailer. Three Dragoons in the AF armor with Gaelbolgs. Yes, other people fight Dragoons different ways in Ishgard, they are not Dragoons. Dragoons are best part of the fighting elite of Ishgard. They are called in when the Astronomers read where a Dravian attack is going to be. They are the crazy bastards that say "Yeeeah. We do not need cannons and junk. We just need this spear, our armor, and our training." If you want a separate fictional parallel, think of them like the soldiers in "Attack on Titan." 

 

As for the arguments against jump being a realistic combat tactic. Can you jump 15 ft in the air really fast? Or back flip several yards away from something in an instant? No? Cool, then how can you make the argument against what could realistically be applied as a technique given that the ability to do so is possible? The same argument can be applied to a MNKs Shoulder Tackle. Taking that as an example, the MNK closes a pretty big distance in an instant. Are you going to stand their while you see the MNK dashing? No. Why can't a Dragoon's jump be just as fast?

 

The point has been made already. Suspend disbelief. Accept that by the time your character knows a Dragoon turned themselves into a human bullet by jumping, they are likely about to skewer you with a spear. They are fast. They have to be, they fight big dragons that move at not a snails pace (as much as we wish that were so). If you are not going to suspend disbelief about Jump, why should anyone suspend disbelief about any other Job or class abilities. No fireballs from BLMs, No PLDs or WARs shrugging off the massive rock slides and fire eruptions of Primals (or any of the other things do similar), No MNKs being able to punch creatures made of stone/metal effectively at all, and certainly no being instantly healed by WHMs and SCHs. It is a slippery slope to pick ANYTHING that exists as a part core concept of the world and say "Nope. Unrealistic. I do not accept." Lets try not to go cherry picking down that road.

 

Two gil registered. ^ ^

[Warren Castille]

I see you just want to nitpick some things without reading the last two times I answered these EXACT nitpicks. That's cool.

 

A dragoon's jump cannot be fast because, while you keep banging on about "suspension of disbelief," gravity is a fundamental force. Jumping up in the air really fast doesn't make you fall any faster. In order to reach the speeds implied by the job ability itself, you'd need to be freefalling (or gliding via the spikes/fin concept) at speeds that would still be impractical. I get it, blah blah blah magic. Stop going on about black mages and their fireballs because aether as a resource is already explained. We know how mages shoot fireballs. We know how white mages channel succor. We know how monks move really fast (there's a whooole world of chakra stuff the story only begins to discuss). We do not know how dragoons suddenly gain the ability to defy all present game physics and concepts because they kill dragons.

 

I don't even know what to make of Midlander in the trailer, to be quite honest. Given Ishgard's stance on how important their dragoons are and how difficult/impossible it is for outsiders to attain that title, does that mean Midlander is THE Azure Dragoon? Well, no, because the NPC dialogue says the Holy See doesn't recognize this generation as having one currently. Will that change come 3.0? Maybe.

 

Also, your smoking gun about three dragoons in AF and wielding Gae Bolgs doesn't really seem relevant here. We've known for a year or more now that those aren't super rare. That still doesn't mean all people recognized with the "dragoon" title use spears.

[Berrod Armstrong]

[Dogberry]

I cheated. Dogberry has magitek legs. I did it more to create an Ahab comparison than to handwave Dogberry's jumping, but it's convenient.

 

Even then, I never picture Dogberry jumping as high as he does in the animation. I picture him jumping more like he's flying from the top turnbuckle of a wrestling ring and putting as much of his weight on his spear as possible. He's not so much flying through the air as using his legs to throw himself onto the enemy like The Macho Man.

[Gegenji]

I cheated. Dogberry has magitek legs. I did it more to create an Ahab comparison than to handwave Dogberry's jumping, but it's convenient.

 

Even then, I never picture Dogberry jumping as high as he does in the animation. I picture him jumping more like he's flying from the top turnbuckle of a wrestling ring and putting as much of his weight on his spear as possible. He's not so much flying through the air as using his legs to throw himself onto the enemy like The Macho Man.

 

We can rebuild him. We have the magiteknology. He'll be stronger. Faster. Jumpier. More Randy Savage than ever before.

[Dogberry]

Steve Austin was The $6,000,000 Man, so he'd have to be more like Stone Cold, I guess.

[Warren Castille]

I cheated. Dogberry has magitek legs. I did it more to create an Ahab comparison than to handwave Dogberry's jumping, but it's convenient.

 

Even then, I never picture Dogberry jumping as high as he does in the animation. I picture him jumping more like he's flying from the top turnbuckle of a wrestling ring and putting as much of his weight on his spear as possible. He's not so much flying through the air as using his legs to throw himself onto the enemy like The Macho Man.

 

it's as-reasonable a defense as you're going to get against physics-defying flying pinpoint-precise rocket jumps fueled by inner-dragons-and-or-aether.

 

I cheated. Dogberry has magitek legs.

 

Welp. My argument is undone. Ring the bell, stop the damn match.

[Dogberry]

I cheated. Dogberry has magitek legs. I did it more to create an Ahab comparison than to handwave Dogberry's jumping, but it's convenient.

 

Even then, I never picture Dogberry jumping as high as he does in the animation. I picture him jumping more like he's flying from the top turnbuckle of a wrestling ring and putting as much of his weight on his spear as possible. He's not so much flying through the air as using his legs to throw himself onto the enemy like The Macho Man.

 

it's as-reasonable a defense as you're going to get against physics-defying flying pinpoint-precise rocket jumps fueled by inner-dragons-and-or-aether.

 

I cheated. Dogberry has magitek legs.

 

Welp. My argument is undone. Ring the bell, stop the damn match.

 

I don't know, I'm pretty much with you. And I recognize that it makes my character a bit special snowflakey to have these metal legs that basically give him super powers. Though it did involve me playing a bedridden character for a few weeks, and a major recovery process once he got them. Plus, the deal he had to make to even get them and how they illustrate his willingness to make just about any deal that he feels will bring him closer to revenge. Even still, magic robot legs. I totally understand any kind of accusation of snowflakeyness leveled at me for that.