Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon?

[Zyrusticae]

In my view the way dragoon jumps works is that they create a surface of aether to push against when they are close to the apex of their jump (not actually AT the apex because that would take way too long) and then do a 'reverse jump' off of that platform to skewer their target with great speed and precision.

 

Of course there is also the argument that gameplay and story separation means that the in-game dragoon jump abilities are heavily time compressed and that they actually take much longer to complete from an in-universe perspective... but then the question of how they hit dragons in the air with any sort of precision remains a complete mystery, so I'm sticking with the platform idea.

 

There's also the alternate idea of dragoons being able to fly using aetheric currents but that would just be cheating, now, wouldn't it?

[Gegenji]

In my view the way dragoon jumps works is that they create a surface of aether to push against  when they are close to the apex of their jump (not actually AT the apex because that would take way too long) and then do a 'reverse jump' off of that platform to skewer their target with great speed and precision.

 

That's a much more elegant solution for the second half than my "throw the spear but not" angle I mentioned earlier. :surprise:

[Zhavi]

 

I don't know, I'm pretty much with you. And I recognize that it makes my character a bit special snowflakey to have these metal legs that basically give him super powers. Though it did involve me playing a bedridden character for a few weeks, and a major recovery process once he got them. Plus, the deal he had to make to even get them and how they illustrate his willingness to make just about any deal that he feels will bring him closer to revenge. Even still, magic robot legs. I totally understand any kind of accusation of snowflakeyness leveled at me for that.

 

You're one of the last people I would ever accuse of special-snowflakeyness. Sometimes characters have traits that mark them out to be different from everyone else. So what? When it comes to looking at characters critically, beyond the whole thing I have about putting your fun first (because, seriously, at the end of the day it's rp, for fun, and it honestly it shouldn't matter whether or not people like or don't like what you're doing. There's always at least a few other people who will like your style; just don't expect everyone to accept it or want to rp with you), looking at a character objectively, if we all just tiptoed around refusing to go outside of the box because onoes someone might be upset then things would get pretty fucking boring.

 

You've always been one of those people I look at and think 'wow, he really knows what he's about' -- you're not the type who just willy-nilly puts things together because you can. From what I've seen of you and your writing, you think things through. I, at least, can respect that. So, you know, you decide you want to do this thing for your character that's a bit on the pushing-boundaries side of things, why not?

 

So you keep those legs, you paint them red if you need to, and you wear them with pride.

[Warren Castille]

I've always considered the high-jump, long-descent-crater-making thing just a timelier version of jumping on someone without any power behind it. From what we've seen of the Dravanian horde so far, a lot of their "infantry" are small or man-sized. Practical combat applications would work fine for those, it's the Svara-and-up sized dragons/wyrms that would pose a need for Jumping. In that case, I don't think we should be looking at one-dragoon-versus-one-dragon but instead, picture Isgebind getting swarmed by a dozen or more enemies all leaping and diving at differing times. The official description says they've developed an aerial combat style for fighting dragons so it isn't too far of a stretch to imagine it that way.

 

Death of a thousand cuts, basically.

 

It's worth noting that the only indications of Jump being an Instant-Tranmission-like attack come from the MMOs. Admittedly I haven't played a Final Fantasy after 11 but before then, it was always a multiple-turn delay. I've got no problem with the "Jump high, use fins to aim slightly on the way down" as long as it's not "instant attack with perfect accuracy and max damage." That sort of ability in the staple toolkit for the most populous Class just... Feels like a convenient button to have to always win. The problem with these sorts of skills is that they can't be put back once they've been drawn, you know? Once you reveal your character can instantly put holes in someone from fifty feet away, you'd sort of expect that to become the mainline maneuver, right?

 

I'm just sort of spinning my wheels and thinking out loud. Dragoons having that sort of ability en masse doesn't "feel" right in the world to me, though. We've got varying levels of aetheric potency in black mages, we've got varying degrees of hearing in the Conjury community, we've got varying chakras that might not open for everyone... Every dragoon having access to immediately being a howitzer seems off.

 

edit:

(because, seriously, at the end of the day it's rp, for fun, and it honestly it shouldn't matter whether or not people like or don't like what you're doing. There's always at least a few other people who will like your style; just don't expect everyone to accept it or want to rp with you)

 

I really need to like, slap this in my quotebox or something so people can use it to tell me off.

[Zhavi]

 

edit:

(because, seriously, at the end of the day it's rp, for fun, and it honestly it shouldn't matter whether or not people like or don't like what you're doing. There's always at least a few other people who will like your style; just don't expect everyone to accept it or want to rp with you)

 

I really need to like, slap this in my quotebox or something so people can use it to tell me off.

 

On the other hand, it's okay to not like what people are doing and to express that. If you're frustrated or whatever, it's not good to just hold that in and pretend everything is sunshine and rainbows. Pretty much, there is always someone who will like what you're doing, and someone who won't like what you're doing. Neither side should be punished for the way they feel.

 

>< done being offtopic, sorry.

[Dogberry]

If you can't have crazy power fantasies in a fantasy role playing game, where can you have them?

 

I've often asked this, and the usual response is "Sir, you are at the post office, please get down from there."

[Gegenji]

Related, lighthearted question:

 

If you "fastball special" a Lalafell Lancer (especially if the thrower is a big ol' Roe), would that be like "Dragoon Lite"? Bonus points if you actually throwing them at a dragon. Or are yourself either Ishgardian or a Dragoon. Basically, I kinda want to do a FF9-style (Or FF6 Umaro-style) joint attack that involves someone throwing a Lala at a problem to solve it.

[Warren Castille]

Related, lighthearted question:

 

If you "fastball special" a Lalafell Lancer (especially if the thrower is a big ol' Roe), would that be like "Dragoon Lite"? Bonus points if you actually throwing them at a dragon. Or are yourself either Ishgardian or a Dragoon. Basically, I kinda want to do a FF9-style (Or FF6 Umaro-style) joint attack that involves someone throwing a Lala at a problem to solve it.

 

...are you familiar with the excellent peasant railgun? It's not a gun that shoots peasants as I'd initially hoped, but...

 

We can kill Nidhogg by commissioning an army of progressively-larger dragoons all jumping and throwing the next dragoon on the way down.

[Aya]

I would have thought that being able to jump really well and fast would be a minor thing compared to throwing fire from the hands and creating magical faeries. I still do not get the objections.

 

Who says there are not inexperienced dragoons who cannot jump well?  That's never been implied anywhere.  That's like complaining that experienced thaumaturges ought not be able to cast fireballs. Sure there may be young ones still learning how to, but no one would think to object to an experienced black mage lobbing one. Only Dragoons seem to be coming under this additional layer of scrutiny and nitpicking about physics.

[Gegenji]

Related, lighthearted question:

 

If you "fastball special" a Lalafell Lancer (especially if the thrower is a big ol' Roe), would that be like "Dragoon Lite"? Bonus points if you actually throwing them at a dragon. Or are yourself either Ishgardian or a Dragoon. Basically, I kinda want to do a FF9-style (Or FF6 Umaro-style) joint attack that involves someone throwing a Lala at a problem to solve it.

 

...are you familiar with the excellent peasant railgun? It's not a gun that shoots peasants as I'd initially hoped, but...

 

We can kill Nidhogg by commissioning an army of progressively-larger dragoons all jumping and throwing the next dragoon on the way down.

 

Being the massive roleplaying nerd I am, yes. Yes I am. I am also enough of a nerd to suggest that should such a tactic be devised by the Ishgardians, it be called the Drag-Gun. Fire the Drag-Gun!

 

(Or the equally dorky "Goon Serve.")

 

Cue cutscene of a Dragoon falling, his armor glowing white from his speed through the air. He hits the target. Freeze frames of everyone nearby. Ultima explosion.

[Warren Castille]

I would have thought that being able to jump really well and fast would be a minor thing compared to throwing fire from the hands and creating magical faeries. I still do not get the objections.

 

Who says there are not inexperienced dragoons who cannot jump well?  That's never been implied anywhere.  That's like complaining that experienced thaumaturges ought not be able to cast fireballs. Sure there may be young ones still learning how to, but no one would think to object to an experienced black mage lobbing one. Only Dragoons seem to be coming under this additional layer of scrutiny and nitpicking about physics.

 

I've pointed this our multiple times. Everything else is explained or handwaved in game except dragoon. Black mages can channel giant fireballs because of aethetic ability and innate discipline. White mages can channel succor because of the gifts of the elementals. Monks can punch really hard because they've opened their chakras. Warriors can withstand damage and pain beyond most mortals because they know how to tap into their Inner Beast. Dragoons can jump impossibly high and fast because...?

 

Also, you tend to get the title of your job after the prerequisite training. You don't become a policeman before going through the academy, you don't become a chef before learning how to cook, and you certainly don't become a soldier before seeing boot camp. "Inexperienced dragoon" seems like an oxymoron given that they're elite dragon-killing units.

[Havoc Snow]

One thing I would like to point out, and this may have already been discussed before, is that really the only thing that is required to play a job ultimately is a Soul Crystal and a bit of training/research.

 

In a sense, I always saw the Soul Crystals as something similar to Holycrons from Star Wars, since they are described (I believe specifically in the Summoner story) as being the crystallized memories of someone who once wielded that power. In the Scholar story when the character touches the Soul Crystal is manifests into a fairy almost immediately, which could also imply that the dormant powers become awakened through prolonged exposure as well, though in the case of the Ninja you are trained in each of the different mudra and what have you.

 

Just because Dragoons typically only come from Ishgard does not mean you couldn't come up with a story where your character uncovers an ancient Dragoon Soul Crystal (Ishgard has been at war with the dragons for what was it, a thousand years now?). The same can be said about pretty much any job, so long as you can come up with a reasonable excuse for how you came into possession of the Soul Crystal.

[Kage]

The only reason why people are bringing up any "nit-picking" is because it came up as an example of contention between some players that explained some bad feelings.

 

If we made a thread about "Why do people scoff at black mage RP?" there would probably be comments about: how do we deal with the damage? Is any attack life threatening at once? Is it easily healable or not? They said they cast a big burst of fire... what are good effects if this is in an on-going battle? THEY ALWAYS FUCKING TELEPORT IN THE MIDDLE OF BATTLE AND EXPECT TO GET AWAY WITH IT AND NO ONE CAN STOP THEM OR CATCH THEM ETC.

 

It's a thread about dragoons so people are talking about dragoons.

[Aya]

The reason it isn't better explained is because the job quests suck, making the player a one of a kind natural at being a dragoon.  That doesn't provide insight but it certainly doesn't mean there is none. To deny hand-waving on these grounds while blithely assuming that every other job and class find a way to do their thing is an example of exactly what this thread is about. 

 

It's an utterly ridiculous argument: "the only way you learn to jump in the game is by being the Azure Dragoon, therefore if you're not the Azure Dragoon there's no way to hand-wave your ability to perform your job skills."  Yes they wrote a lame story, but it is undeniable that there are numerous dragoons and they're all taught the skills in some way!  Whatever that way is it must be -something-.  Just because it isn't spelled out in explicit fantasy jargon is no good reason to deny that it exits.

[Steel Wolf]

A fair bit of handwavium can be applied here by virtue of universe precedence--Final Fantasy dragoons since forever have been able to leap impossibly high and spear people's scalps. That's sort of what they do.

 

Failing that, though (and with no prior knowledge of the Job's quests in this game), perhaps there's another way. I refer to the Heavansward trailer for this one, as in a few of those shots had that Dragoon locking in to his armor with what appeared to be no magic or anything like that. Like it was a sort of powered armor.

 

So....perhaps jumping is achieved through motor-assist in the armor's boots and legs?

[Havoc Snow]

Because this is relevant as well, I'm gonna go ahead and post the Heavensward teaser at a particular point in the video.

 

 

note that as the Derplander steps up after donning the Kain Highwind-esque armor, there are now not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR Dragoons all standing side by side decked out in the AF armor (counting the Derplander) and not only that, also all wielding the Gae Bolg. So yeah, there's that too...

 

Edit: Since the forum won't let me post it as a link, just skip to 1m 13s to see what I'm talking about.

[Gegenji]

Also, you tend to get the title of your job after the prerequisite training. You don't become a policeman before going through the academy, you don't become a chef before learning how to cook, and you certainly don't become a soldier before seeing boot camp. "Inexperienced dragoon" seems like an oxymoron given that they're elite dragon-killing units.

 

Maybe there IS a "Dragoon Academy" or training period that just hasn't been pointed out yet due to the Player Character effectively cheating his skills into play with the Soul Crystal?

 

Much like with normal knights, perhaps Dragoons have their own squire-types (I'll call them "whelps" for the dragon correlation and because it makes me feel witty). You don't become a Dragoon officially until you slay a dragon according to the lore, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have these Whelps learning how to make use of the skills that a Dragoon would need to slay their sworn enemies. Then the slaying of a dragon is more of a rite of passage and graduation, and the learning of the abilities is now a more progressive thing instead of something sudden like its presented in-game.

 

... Or maybe there's lore counteracting all that which I overlooked. Either or. I just think the Whelp to Dragoon idea might be a feasible answer if allowed. Or, heck, maybe something like it will be mentioned in Heavensward! :blush:

 

EDIT: Also suddenly a bunch of posts that weren't there when I was typing this!

[Warren Castille]

I'm not talking about the Azure Dragoon, though. Her power set is entirely unrelated to the rank-and-file, which is who we're talking about. Dragoon roleplayers for the most part tend to realize claiming to be the Azure Dragoon is a quick way to get people to stop roleplaying with you.

 

I wish the storyline would have embellished a little bit more about the Inner Dragon thing going on. If that's not Azure-centric, then that's more than enough explanation for me to shut my trap.

 

That's the crux of this, I'm plainly realizing. Every other class makes you A . You become a paladin. You become a black mage. You become a white mage. You become a ninja.

 

You become the dragoon.

 

Heavensward can't get here fast enough to answer this stuff.

 

My ridiculous argument isn't to say dragoons can't jump, it's that dragoons can't instantly ignore the laws of implied Eorzean physics while also benefiting from the effect of them. If you ignore gravity's pull to get fifty fulms up, you don't get to use gravity's pull to add impact to the attack. That's just my opinion, naturally, but Dragoon is a martial class so I'm trying to come up with martial approaches, not just "because dragon aether." Every other martial ability has an estimation of WHY it works except Jump, which just works because it works.

[Kellach Woods]

i love how the solution to "dragoons don't have handwaves" is to not do shit with 'em until the FFXIV loreteam can bullshit a handwave for us.

 

which will then be ignored because reasons.

[Verad]

Dragoon jumps are powered by RPer frustration over their inability to explain dragoon jumps.

 

There, it's settled.

[Aya]

What is the need for a specific handwave anyway?  In a world where "the aether did it" is a serious if unsatisfying answer, why is there even an argument about what is not only an obvious canon ability but one that is a classic and recurrent one throughout FF in general? They're not going to turn around and say "sorry guys, that whole jumping thing wasn't believable so we're going to remove it.

[Melkire]

As an avid RC glider enthusiast of some years and an on-again-off-again initiate of aerodynamics, I feel morally obligated to chime in on this thread long enough to point out that, from a "realism" standpoint, dragoons using the spikes/fins/blades on their drachen/wyrm armor to help control their descent through the skies is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Ignoring the fact that most of said protrusions are on their backs (there's an argument to be made there for increased air resistance and drag that insures that a dragoon will always descend face-down with their backs to the sky), those that aren't are nowhere near large enough nor positioned well enough to act as ailerons, elevons, flaps, air-brakes, or anything of the sort. To affect a change in course, you need a sufficiently large enough surface area with enough fine motor control over it to affect the right change in airfoil and/or cause enough deflection. Dragoon armor simply doesn't have that. Any change in vector on their way down will owe more to skydiving practices than those too-large-for-ornamentation-and-too-small-for-practical-use protrusions.

 

I posit that the spikes are there in case, oh, a dragon tries to eat the dragoon and finds that the little man or woman makes too painful a meal to be bothered with, thereby saving the person's life. Let's not try to further justify the ridiculous drachen and wyrm armors by dragging the principles of flight through the mud, shall we?

 

(inb4 a wizard did it AETHER)

[Warren Castille]

i love how the solution to "dragoons don't have handwaves" is to not do shit with 'em until the FFXIV loreteam can bullshit a handwave for us.

 

which will then be ignored because reasons.

 

Did anyone say they were going to stop roleplaying with dragoons?

 

Dragoon jumps are powered by RPer frustration over their inability to explain dragoon jumps.

 

There, it's settled.

 

You might be on to something.

What is the need for a specific handwave anyway?  In a world where "the aether did it" is a serious if unsatisfying answer, why is there even an argument about what is not only an obvious canon ability but one that is a classic and recurrent one throughout FF in general? They're not going to turn around and say "sorry guys, that whole jumping thing wasn't believable so we're going to remove it.

 

Because it boggles that everyone else got an explanation. The answer to the question "why" is hotly pursued by curious, obsessive-over-effing-video-games minds. I don't want anything removed, I just want to know how it works.

[Gegenji]

Dragoon jumps are powered by RPer frustration over their inability to explain dragoon jumps.

 

There, it's settled.

 

Climbing up into the sky on the backs of a hundred people hunched over their desks, trying to write out the numbers and equations to explain how Dragoons do what they do.

[Kage]

This is just going to constantly go through the same fucking mud circle after mud circle after mud circle.