Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon?

[Val]

I'm NOT against Dragoons jumping in combat. In fact, I'm all for it. I just think there's a time and a place for those skills, and fighting a human-sized target that is incredibly quick and can dart around isn't one of them. As I stated in my original post, Dragoons are made to fight dragons. Their jump takes a long time--it SHOULD take a long time. If we're going to say that they use aether, then there's going to be a momentary concentration or build-up for that aetheric energy to blast them into the air. It's going to take time for them to reach the peak of their jump, and it's going to take time for their aether-charged whatever to blast them forward (if they use that). All the other person has to do is.. you know. Move. While I can accept that their armor helps them to move in mid-air, I can't accept that, moving at high speeds, it lets them curve around on a dime, and it's some kind of DBZ logic to think that the enemy would just stand there while the dragoon is doing all of this.

 

Val actually has fought a dragoon in game that decided he wanted to just flip around. All he did was step to the side the entire time until the dragoon got tired. Straight-line attacks where you commit everything from a distance and just kind of ride out the attack just won't work against small, fast targets.

[Zyrusticae]

I will slap anyone who tries to tell me they can blink through space instantly without any cast times whatsoever.

 

It's about on the same level as claiming you can fly because aether. There is absolutely zero in-game evidence for either assertion. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks, buddy!

 

That being said, Jump always seemed to me to be a skill (especially in the single-player Final Fantasies) used in conjunction with other party members who distract the target so the DRG can get a clear shot. Trying to think of the logistics of using it in a 1v1 duel is indeed quite a head-scratcher.

[Kage]

...I roleplayed a dragon for an event a few weeks (maybe a month?) back. Anyone who was there to see an IC dragoon ground an already-crippled-in-one-wing dragon by jumping up and coming down on its spine with his lance to drive the thing into the earth would not question a jump's effectiveness, I would think. :thumbsup:

RP a dragoon fighting against Osric.

 

Or a dragoon fighting against black mages who fling fireballs and teleport willy nilly.

 

RP a dragoon fighting Chachan and watch him scramble away screaming that it's raining men (Hallelujah). Or that the sky is falling.

Hey now I'm sure there are female dragoons!

 

In that case, kage can shield Chachan or swing his axe like a baseball bat. SMAAAAAAASH! Wait. This isn't Eagleland.

[Gegenji]

Val actually has fought a dragoon in game that decided he wanted to just flip around. All he did was step to the side the entire time until the dragoon got tired. Straight-line attacks where you commit everything from a distance and just kind of ride out the attack just won't work against small, fast targets.

 

Err... if I may counterpoint: bows and guns. Granted, I doubt a Dragoon is going as fast as one of those (or maybe they are, who knows!), but there is the idea of "leading" a target and aiming for where you assume them to be at the point of contact. So just sidestepping might now always work, if your opponent anticipates it, much like if any opponent anticipates your movement. You just have less control of snap changes if you guessed wrong.

 

In that case, kage can shield Chachan or swing his axe like a baseball bat. SMAAAAAAASH! Wait. This isn't Eagleland.

 

Mah hero. :love:

[Berrod Armstrong]

It's about on the same level as claiming you can fly because aether. There is absolutely zero in-game evidence for either assertion. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks, buddy!

 

There's actually a certain cutscene...

*cough*

[Kage]

Val actually has fought a dragoon in game that decided he wanted to just flip around. All he did was step to the side the entire time until the dragoon got tired. Straight-line attacks where you commit everything from a distance and just kind of ride out the attack just won't work against small, fast targets.

 

Err... if I may counterpoint: bows and guns. Granted, I doubt a Dragoon is going as fast as one of those (or maybe they are, who knows!), but there is the idea of "leading" a target and aiming for where you assume them to be at the point of contact. So just sidestepping might now always work, if your opponent anticipates it, much like if any opponent anticipates your movement. You just have less control of snap changes if you guessed wrong.

Combat RP can get so tricky.

 

People who can anticipate your move, roll backwards, and move someone into the way of an arrow shot at their back. Totally could be a dragoon who anticipates the backstep movement.

 

The point is that in a dragoon vs other player character situation, the odds are almost always against a dragoon landing the charge or jump when they haven't done some maiming or crippling... or haven't had help to keep the player character focused on something else, not the dragoon.

 

It's about on the same level as claiming you can fly because aether. There is absolutely zero in-game evidence for either assertion. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks, buddy!

 

There's actually a certain cutscene...

*cough*

 

But you're like in blue space then. :c

[Berrod Armstrong]

But you're like in blue space then. :c

No not that one...*cough*

[Aya]

Kage, My post was a reply to one that has now been deleted, that tried to suggest that this thread was not about the stigma of Dragoons in RP.  I was pointing out that association being on the very first page, not to mention the topic of the thread itself, makes this thread quite different than what was being suggested by Zhavi.

 

Val, you're essentially saying "Yes you can be a Dragoon, but don't actually try to be a Dragoon, unless of course you're fighting Dragons."  While Dragons are the ultimate target, there is nothing anywhere in the game to suggest that is the only target against which Dragoons know how to jump against.  Its absurd to be alright, on one hand, with fireballs, and on the other dismiss entirely the ability for someone to guide their descent to strike you with a lance.  They're both ridiculous, yet both in a fantasy setting are reasonable, especially when the jumping Dragoon is a time-honored part of Final Fantasy!  

 

You're making a huge assumption that the line of attack cannot be changed, and that a simple move is all that's required to avoid it.  You're also dismissing what should be a dramatic moment.  No, I don't think that a Dragoon's Jump is super-powered, but like all character abilities its power is just as necessary to fit the story and the moment.  For you to automatically side-step his jump, is exactly the same as his automatically avoiding every strike you make.  Neither is ultimately helpful to the story, really.

[Warren Castille]

There's already been a share of flippy ninja types showing up at the world's premiere RP-PVP locale, the Grindstone, and every single time one tries to frontflip over my head or dart around me I will have Warren shamelessly track their movement and turn his body. It's a failing of mine, but I'll never be able to believe someone's able to take that sort of thing seriously.

[Gegenji]

The point is that in a dragoon vs other player character situation, the odds are almost always against a dragoon landing the charge or jump when they haven't done some maiming or crippling... or haven't had help to keep the player character focused on something else, not the dragoon.

 

Depends. If I can use the arrow/bullet comparison again, knowing you have the projectile coming at you doesn't mean you'll have the skill to evade it. Plus, as you mentioned, there's also the idea of attacking via ambush or otherwise obscuring the attack (ex. doing that anime-style jump where you are between your opponent and the sun, attacking through the glare).

 

In addition, if the ailerons/dragon spirit concepts have any merit, they could also be used to allow for some minor adjustments in the fall to compensate for an enemy's movement. Obviously you couldn't make a 90-degree turn or loop around that tree that Chachan ducked behind in a panic, but you could alter your trajectory a bit more than your opponent might think. Gotta make use of that Ph.D in Geometry and Jumpology from Kain Kollege, after all.

 

Really, as "out there" as jumping might be as a combat mechanic, there are ways I can see it working. And, if surprisingly simple enough, making use of it requires concessions on both sides just like with any RP combat. It's just explaining a dropping dragoon as opposed to a pugilist's elbow drop.

[Aya]

Well, you guys can do what you want, but my bottom line is as follows:

 

Anyone who dismisses a Dragoon for, you know, being a Dragoon, is being a jerk.

 

Anyone who claims that a Dragoon cannot effectively utilize a jumping manuever in combat, is being a jerk.

 

That's not to claim that anyone and everyone playing a Dragoon will be interesting, or fun; there may even be more rather than fewer "poor RPers" playing Dragoons (since I never see any, and I avoid combat RP, I really don't know!)

 

But Dragoons are part of FFXIV lore.  They are part of FF lore in general.  They've been with the game for ages, and they're known for their ability to jump and then land on their targets with lances.  Not liking that is about on par with not liking Chocobos, you can grumble about them, but they exist, and you really ought to accept that ICly, even if they really don't make much sense.

[Zhavi]

Kage, My post was a reply to one that has now been deleted, that tried to suggest that this thread was not about the stigma of Dragoons in RP.  I was pointing out that association being on the very first page, not to mention the topic of the thread itself, makes this thread quite different than what was being suggested by Zhavi.

 

I misread the intent of your post (hence why the edit, I would have had to significantly change it and by that point I realized it was just going to be a derail and thought well, shit, dammit self just ... /cornerofshame), though some of the issues remained the same; in any case what I was arguing was more related to what makes a healthy discussion and what should be permissible in discussion over what you were suggesting. It's a whoooole other can of worms, and I didn't want to totally flip the discussion as it's happened before in a way that caused thread moderation... and I didn't want to do that to this thread because I am enjoying reading it.

 

So, yeah, I let it go.

[Swashbuckler]

I'd like to just add on, if it hasn't been already, that there is more to a Dragoon than just "Jump." Sure it's their signature move (along with other Jump-like abilities like Dragonfire Dive) but what about the other things they can do with the lance?

 

Though I suppose that's what the lancer class is for...

[Verad]

There's already been a share of flippy ninja types showing up at the world's premiere RP-PVP locale, the Grindstone, and every single time one tries to frontflip over my head or dart around me I will have Warren shamelessly track their movement and turn his body. It's a failing of mine, but I'll never be able to believe someone's able to take that sort of thing seriously.

 

And yet, Exalted.

[Kage]

Really, as "out there" as jumping might be as a combat mechanic, there are ways I can see it working. And, if surprisingly simple enough, making use of it requires concessions on both sides just like with any RP combat. It's just explaining a dropping dragoon as opposed to a pugilist's elbow drop.

I agree. But I think it means asking the Dragoon player to make sure their RP is enjoyable for themselves as well as the player character they are fighting against. Usually that would mean stuff that means a dragoon would not be locked 100% on a target and land it successfully against a player character like a ninja. Conversely, just as the same would go for the Dragoon it'd apply to the player character to keep the RP fun and enjoyable... if the target lands on a ninja I'd hope that the ninja doesn't just brush it off. or a paladin taking the hit right to his armor and saying he's A-OK with it.

[Melkire]

I'd like to just add on, if it hasn't been already, that there is more to a Dragoon than just "Jump." Sure it's their signature move (along with other Jump-like abilities like Dragonfire Dive) but what about the other things they can do with the lance?

 

Though I suppose that's what the lancer class is for...

 

The same IC dragoon I mentioned earlier later threw his spear through another dragon's throat in an IC invocation of Piercing Talon. No one present for that had any problems with that person exhibiting enough strength and skill to pierce dragon hide/scales with a thrown lance.

 

In fact, I get the feeling that any and all people who are questioning a dragoon's capabilities in this thread would totally be chill with most if not all of what a dragoon is supposed to be capable of being used ICly. Willing suspension of disbelief, you know. It's a thing.

[Warren Castille]

There's already been a share of flippy ninja types showing up at the world's premiere RP-PVP locale, the Grindstone, and every single time one tries to frontflip over my head or dart around me I will have Warren shamelessly track their movement and turn his body. It's a failing of mine, but I'll never be able to believe someone's able to take that sort of thing seriously.

 

And yet, Exalted.

 

Taking Exalted seriously is the first step to not enjoying Exalted, I've found.

 

My sticking point (hee hee) with dragoons jumping on man-sized targets is that it just seems... Well, too convenient. The same exact skills they can use on giant, devouring monsters (dragons are BIG!) are the same skills they can use on a lalafell, to the same (far more effective, actually, if you compare a lala's mass to Isgebind's) effect? The dragoon official page specifically says they've mastered an aerial style to combat dragons, leading me to believe they use those flashy moves on aerial targets, not ground-based opponents. That's what the lance is for.

 

This is coming from someone who openly has mentioned his character has trouble adjusting to lalafell-sized opponents, so it's probably just me being a snob. I'll wear that badge, though. The "I am trained to fight every single foe effectively" trait isn't one I can put on my characters.

 

...unless it's Exalted, because then I'm using Crashing Wave Throw to beat my enemies with smaller, lesser enemies and then throwing them all into the sun. Aah, Exalted. <3

[Aya]

I dont have anything interesting to add to the discussion you're enjoying Zhavi ^^

[Verad]

 

And yet, Exalted.

 

Taking Exalted seriously is the first step to not enjoying Exalted, I've found.

 

I agree. FF14 is the same way. 

 

There are some serious elements in this, same as there are in Exalted, but this is also a setting in which you can get jerked around on ridiculous levequests, you help a goblin clear out a dragon from its village so you can get a particularly noxious cheese, NPCs are constantly engaged in squatting contests for no good reason, and one of the ongoing questlines involves an idiot inspector, equally idiotic sidekick, and a kabuki actor who uses a chicken 1/100th of his size to fly around.

 

And it's not as if the settings are distinct in how they justify character abilities - substitute "essence" for "aether" and it might as well be the same. Why are Sidereals able to manipulate the stars and astrology? Essence. Why are Solars able to perfect everything? Essence. Why are there dinosaurs that pee heroin? Essence!

 

What you do with Exalted, you can do with FF14. You have the power!

[Gegenji]

My sticking point (hee hee) with dragoons jumping on man-sized targets is that it just seems... Well, too convenient. The same exact skills they can use on giant, devouring monsters (dragons are BIG!) are the same skills they can use on a lalafell, to the same (far more effective, actually, if you compare a lala's mass to Isgebind's) effect? The dragoon official page specifically says they've mastered an aerial style to combat dragons, leading me to believe they use those flashy moves on aerial targets, not ground-based opponents. That's what the lance is for.

 

I'd move that it's quite possible to translate the skill to man-sized targets, just that it would be that much harder without practice. Or perhaps not, if the aim of the jumping attack is to try to hit a key weak point in the dragon's anatomy (wing joint, Smaug-style chink in their armor). Again, we don't know much in the way of details of how the jump is done beyond what we are given in the game. Which allows for a lot of flexibility in application but, like anything else, needs to be treated properly and fairly.

 

Basically, use something like:

 

Ragnar the Wyrmpierce leaps into the sky, the sunlight glinting fabulously on his armor before he plunges back down towards the earth, lance forward and ready to skewer Orwin the Oblivious.

 

Instead of:

 

Bahamut Lancemaster jumps onto Ser Uberpaladin, running him through with his lance he totally got from Odin that one time they went out for Jaegermeisters.

 

But, again, this is something that I think applies to all forms of combat, not just Dragoon jumpin'.

[Warren Castille]

 

And yet, Exalted.

 

Taking Exalted seriously is the first step to not enjoying Exalted, I've found.

 

I agree. FF14 is the same way. 

 

There are some serious elements in this, same as there are in Exalted, but this is also a setting in which you can get jerked around on ridiculous levequests, you help a goblin clear out a dragon from its village so you can get a particularly noxious cheese, NPCs are constantly engaged in squatting contests for no good reason, and one of the ongoing questlines involves an idiot inspector, equally idiotic sidekick, and a kabuki actor who uses a chicken 1/100th of his size to fly around.

 

And it's not as if the settings are distinct in how they justify character abilities - substitute "essence" for "aether" and it might as well be the same. Why are Sidereals able to manipulate the stars and astrology? Essence. Why are Solars able to perfect everything? Essence. Why are there dinosaurs that pee heroin? Essence!

 

What you do with Exalted, you can do with FF14. You have the power!

 

As I was typing my response I reasoned that was your hopeful response, and it would have been mean of me to deviate specifically to deny you the point you definitely earned there.

 

Like all things in roleplay, it comes down to your personal philosophies. I like the contrast of playing the not-chosen ones in XIV similarly to how it can be fun to play a Heroic Mortal in Exatled and see how many sessions you survive (global top score is 1/2).

 

Doesn't mean everyone does, or has to. That's the nice thing about RP.

[Val]

There's already been a share of flippy ninja types showing up at the world's premiere RP-PVP locale, the Grindstone, and every single time one tries to frontflip over my head or dart around me I will have Warren shamelessly track their movement and turn his body. It's a failing of mine, but I'll never be able to believe someone's able to take that sort of thing seriously.

 

I agree with this. I've had someone do a flip for Val and he just tracked their movements. The bottom line is that flashy moves simply don't work in a fight, and the longer it takes for someone to do them, the longer it gives their opponent to gather themselves and keep their eye on their opponent.

 

Aya, the thing about fireballs is that they're quick attacks meant to strike small creatures. Dragoons, their very reason for creation, is to strike large, slow moving targets. Yeah, they use that in game against small creatures, but those are also game mechanics and through those game mechanics, they auto-hit whatever they're jumping at.

 

I'm not dismissing it entirely. A Dragoon that gets the drop on someone will mess them up if they don't see it coming. It's a powerful strike that SHOULD be justly balanced, and that balance is that it's hard to hit if someone sees you coming. Why? Because you can dive/roll/run/whatever after the Dragoon commits. While they can maybe move in their descent slightly, they can't make up for the sporadic movements of their targets (which dragons can't do, mind you, and thus my previous point).

 

EDIT: Not to mention that, in Final Fantasy Tactics, Dragoons missed ALL THE TIME against quick targets. The slower the enemy, the higher your chance of success was. As someone stated earlier, they needed someone to distract them. Dragoons had the ability to do a quick hop which did little to no damage and was largely useless, or power up their strike but also take a loooooong time (you know, balance).

[TheShii]

a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol

 

either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.

 

*cough*

 

I'm aware of them, I have already spoken to those in the group when I first transferred into balmung and with a brief response, but nothing in game (even when reaching out), so my statement still stands lol

I may have very well just caught them at a busy time or times didn't match up or maybe even some of my messages just never reached them, but outside of seeing their stuff in the forums... going in the game itself I didn't catch so much as a whisper of other garlean rp'ers and that's what I'm basing my original comment on primarily. lol

 

of course i'll also be the first to admit that just because I didn't see/hear it, didn't mean it wasn't there. Just nothing I witnessed. only emphasizing that if it was as common as it was suggested, yanoo haha

[Zyrusticae]

But you're like in blue space then. :c

No not that one...*cough*

Snap, you got me!

 

 

To be clear, however, it's pretty much irrelevant to every player character because, seriously, those specific circumstances are never going to come up in any normal roleplaying scenario.

 

[Gegenji]

I'm not dismissing it entirely. A Dragoon that gets the drop on someone will mess them up if they don't see it coming. It's a powerful strike that SHOULD be justly balanced, and that balance is that it's hard to hit if someone sees you coming. Why? Because you can dive/roll/run/whatever after the Dragoon commits. While they can maybe move in their descent slightly, they can't make up for the sporadic movements of their targets (which dragons can't do, mind you, and thus my previous point).

 

EDIT: Not to mention that, in Final Fantasy Tactics, Dragoons missed ALL THE TIME against quick targets. The slower the enemy, the higher your chance of success was. As someone stated earlier, they needed someone to distract them. Dragoons had the ability to do a quick hop which did little to no damage and was largely useless, or power up their strike but also take a loooooong time (you know, balance).

 

Again, I think this falls under the basic concessions made for any sort of RP fighting. Which is less a matter of the mechanics and how the jump works than an agreement between the participants on how the combat flows. The balance comes from the cooperative efforts of those involved, and how much the balance is tweaked either way is upon those participating.

 

Trying to place an overarching restriction is the same as putting an overarching restriction on any other RP element. "A spell MUST allow the opponent to interrupt it" or "Stealthed characters MUST be able to be detected" or even "Enraged Warriors must be uncontrollable and attack with impunity." It's all basically the same thing to me, thus making a Dragoon's jump no less of a unique situation than any other conflicting RP action.

 

The only differing thing is how the Jump actually works, which is ultimately unnecessary beyond the aforementioned need to explain things and fluff one's own head-canon.