Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon?

[Dravus]

There's always that one class in an MMO that is negatively stereotyped by role-players. It just so happens that dragoons drew the short straw in that regard. What I find hilarious, however, is that many of those criticising the perceived 'mary sue' nature of the class seem to have no problem putting their civilian/unskilled characters in dangerous situations in some of the most volatile locations across Eorzea only to repeatedly walk away without a scratch.

 

Which is something I find a lot more jarring than someone choosing to play a powerful combatant in a heroic fantasy setting.

[Aya]

Given the nature of other disciplines in FF, Dragoon and its jumping ability hardly seems like a leap (see what I did there? ^^)  We have fire leaping from hands, the ability to throw rocks, or restore life force with invisible aether, and even the ability of monks and ninja to utilize aether to aid their melee attacks.  It doesn't seem like a shock that Dragoons, practiced as they are in an "aerial" form of combat to fight dragons, would be able to leap and control their descent in such a way as to land an attack.

 

That's not to say that its realistic (its not), but neither are many of the fights I watch, nor is magic itself, nor is any of the vast myriad of things that people wave their hands and exclaim "aether" about.  Given that its a firm and fast part of FF lore, and cemented in FF XIV even more firmly through explicit character abilities for a job that is known to be the most common in the realm, it seems even more silly to dismiss the idea out of hand.

 

As to why don't they just jump instead of walk?  Why don't ninja in ninja-anime constantly leap or sneak to get around?  Its probably because walking is casual, and efficient both mentally and physically.  Something like leaping, even with aetherial assistance, would still no doubt take a great deal of physical exertion and mental focus.  Not something you would just do to get around like a two-legged rabbit (Bugs Bunny, Dragon Slayer).

 

So, I  say, let dragoons be dragoons.

[Oli!]

I would personally chalk this up to a fundamental difference in RP preferences and style. Some people are okay with explaining things with Magic or just taking things as they are, while others would rather explain things with a little more detail using real-world contexts or build upon them in a similar format.

 

Personally I'm a person that enjoys the second camp, but there's nothing particularly wrong with either. Some people prefer to go with what the game gives them, while others take things into their own hands. While there are situations in which the two can (and will) clash, that's part of the reason why it helps to surround yourself with people who think the same way about RP that you do.

 

 

That thing where everything disagrees and we spiral off-topic and the conversation goes nowhere.

 

It is happeningggg.

 

(I'm not trying to be the Thread Police or anything, but we're getting dangerously close to the fires that have consumed previous threads on similar subjects.)

[Faye]

Second problem with a lot of DRG role-players I've seen firsthand is the idea both IC and OOC that jumping on things is the best way to kill them. I'm not talking giant dragons, I'm talking smaller and speedier targets like other people... There's a reason that IRL few martial arts and combat styles involve jumping out of the air at people... it leaves you vulnerable and there's really no benefit to outweigh that. There was an IC DRG once who joined my FC for all of an hour until he was told IC that jumping was a silly tactic when fighting other people began to yell at us OOC about that remark that had been made in RP, promptly quit the FC and apparently to this day goes around telling everyone not to RP with us lol. If you want to have your character jump around a lot, and even if you want him to be presumed to be good at it and be a competent fighter, that's fine--but you need to be able to handle criticism on the matter, as many people may not find jumping 20 feet in the air to be a useful or believable fighting tactic.

 

This really bothered me. RL logic really should be discarded in a fantasy game. I would have left the FC too if people were trashing my RP like that. How is it a silly tactic when every single one of your Dragoon-given skills is a jump or a jump-enhancer?

 

Jump is the iconic dragoon (dragon slayers) skill in the entire Final Fantasy universe. It shouldn't be discredited like that.

 

If we discard all RL logic, how will we all have a similar idea of how to RP and how the world functions IC? How can we deduce how our characters would react mentally and even physically that matter if we don't take into account RL knowledge of psychology, physics, chemistry, sociology, biology, etc.? What's the standard if we can't base these simple, incredibly important things on RL laws we all understand and know? When your character is sad, you know he may cry or frown because that's what people do IRL. When you character jumps, you assume he won't float off into the sky forever because on earth IRL, we have gravity that prevents that.

 

At least some dosage of RL logic is necessary to determine things like cause and effects and what your character is capable of. It's safe to assume that the setting--even of most fantasy games--is based at least loosely on the real world at some point in time unless specified otherwise, and thus it's typically safe to assume things function like real life unless we're told/shown otherwise.

 

Sure, if it's a fantasy game, obviously a small measure of RL logic must be discarded. "Jump is the iconic dragoon (dragon slayers) skill in the entire Final Fantasy universe." As you said yourself, canonically this skill is meant to be used against dragons, large flying targets, not against other people or Beastmen or what have you, as that's what dragoons are trained and meant to do.

 

I don't really think it's "trashing" someone's RP by any stretch to have a character criticize another character IC. RP is pointless without conflict and people playing a wishy-washy character who agrees 100% with everything others tell them, ever, is boring beyond words. My character's opinions are her own, not mine. Sometimes they happen to align, sometimes they don't. To get so upset OOC about something said IC makes me think the person doesn't really understand RP, or their character is just a self-insert thus making them personally hurt by any IC criticism, or they're trying to play a Mary Sue and are offended when someone doesn't find their character to be the coolest thing ever--or perhaps a combination of any of those.

 

None the less, someone disagreeing about the semantics of how a class is meant to be RPed is a fair reason to leave if they please, and while it may be polite to try to discuss it and come to an understanding first it's by absolutely no means necessary. I don't and would never hold that against someone. But I do think there's a difference between simply leaving, and leaving and verbally attacking everyone on your way out (and afterward). As such, it's why I mentioned this person is an example of why some people may dislike dragoon RPers.

 

As others have said, it boils to down to different opinions of philosophies of how to RP. No matter what your opinion, throwing insults and profanity at someone who doesn't share your opinion on a matter so harmless is never justified, and as such I don't think I'll ever find this person's actions excusable.

[Warren Castille]

I figured out why I have a hard time, personally, justifying Jump as an ability.

 

Conjurers draw energy from the land to channel life magic.

Thaumaturges focus aether into elements.

Monks explore spiritual energy through their chakras.

Ninja draw on elemental bases through their mudra to effectively-channel aether.

Dragoons jump good because they killed a dragon.

 

...wait, wha?

 

Dragoons are the only martial-based class without a convenient handwave as to how they work. Warriors have an inner beast and paladins are trained to make full use of armor and shield. Dragoons just... suddenly gain the ability to fly briefly and swiftly as a result of Ishgard crediting them with a kill.

 

I try not to think too hard about it. It's never been an issue for me, and I hope it remains that way!

[Kage]

What Oli said.

 

 

I think what Faye is saying is that some people do still want believability in their RP otherwise we can say shit about whatever happens in combat. What is the easiest way to reach believability in a fantasy setting? Real world.

 

Do we say it has to follow the real world physics? No.

 

But a skill used to slay Large. Flying. Not so fast possibly beasts... probably doesn't work very well when fighting a regular player character. At least it won't be 100% hit

 

Maybe I suck but I see it like trying to whack a fly in the air. Or throwing a dart at one

 

Edit: And yes I know the irony of my lalafell debates. But lalafells fight all sorts of things, some die. Some -do not-. Dragoons fight dragons. Their jump ability was made to slay -DRAGONS-

[Oli!]

Dragoons jump good because they killed a dragon.

 

 

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[Faye]

What Oli said.

 

 

I think what Faye is saying is that some people do still want believability in their RP otherwise we can say shit about whatever happens in combat. What is the easiest way to reach believability in a fantasy setting? Real world.

 

Do we say it has to follow the real world physics? No.

 

But a skill used to slay Large. Flying. Not so fast possibly beasts... probably doesn't work very well when fighting a regular player character. At least it won't be 100% hit

 

Maybe I suck but I see it like trying to whack a fly in the air. Or throwing a dart at one

 

This! Even fantasy settings need some measure of RL logic to in order to be relatable, believable, and make sense to our measly human brains!

[Gegenji]

This thread has actually got me wondering about the second half of the Jump, now. :lol:

 

I mean, decent points have been provided on the first part. Training, aether-boosts, a potential prerequisite rest period from the exertion that may or may not match with the cool-down timers of the actual abilities. That all makes a decent bit of sense.

 

I'm more curious about how they actually aim for the second half - to hit that target they're seeking to jump upon. I'm assuming the ailerons on the gear help in the free-fall, allowing for some motion akin to a wing-suit. Yet, unless they're jumping ludicrously high, they might not have enough time to adjust their descent.

 

... Which resulted in the mental image of them effectively throwing their spears at the target without the whole "letting go" part. That would provide an accuracy akin to throwing darts (somewhat) and would be something I could see being able to be practiced. You'd have basically laid-flat archery targets and try to hit as close to the bulls-eye as possible. This could allow for some decent accuracy against smaller targets, but would equally require quite a bit of training to do - along with the ability to lead a moving target.

 

Or maybe I'm just over-thinking it. Wouldn't be the first time. :lol:

[Kage]

What Oli said.

 

 

I think what Faye is saying is that some people do still want believability in their RP otherwise we can say shit about whatever happens in combat. What is the easiest way to reach believability in a fantasy setting? Real world.

 

Do we say it has to follow the real world physics? No.

 

This! Even fantasy settings need some measure of RL logic to in order to be relatable, believable, and make sense to our measly human brains!

I mean, some fantasy books do use real life logic! Even though there are gods who actually do make their appearances and aren't just faith based... Or magic. Or Jewels that can wreak havoc on a kingdom's enemy but which will also wreak havoc on the land's harvest.

 

Or the lady knights still having to deal with them monthlies.

 

Even if they have magicked jewelry birth control.

[Kellach Woods]

In so far as the jump ability is concerned, I'd say there could be various personal handwaves. My favorite one being that Ishgardians have such hateboner for dragons that they unconsciously use aether to home in on them, aided with the armor's design to get there faster.

 

It is also the only positive thing I will say about Ishgard.

[Enteris]

To add to the debate of the need for realism...

 

As has been stated multiple times by now, the jump abilities canonically are used to slay large flying enemies, namely dragons and their kin. To turn around and apply that jump attack to a ground target, while not impossible to score a hit, seems very unlikely. To make it even plausible they would have to be able to jump nearly non-stop without tire, which would make Warren's argument of "why walk" all the more real... or travel at Flash-like speeds. Otherwise, why would a combatant use an ability that can be seen coming from a mile away -AND- tires them out? It'll be easily dodged/blocked and leave the dragoon with less energy, aetheric or physical, to carry on with the fight.

 

To add another twist to the whole "people throw fireballs, heal others magically, etc." argument. My paladin throws his shield as an opener to ge initial threat on a target. Do I apply that particular move to my RP fights? Short of an act of desperation... I sincerely doubt my, or any other player's, paladin (or warrior with their axe) would realistically throw their shield in battle. It would handicap them. Unless, of course, you're going to argue that it's a magical aetheric shield... and/or it magically reappears on their arm.

 

Some abilities just need to be ignored for believability's sake.

 

------

 

As to the original post, as has been stated multiple times, it's just a matter of numerous other dragoons being bad. Claiming to be the (or an) azure dragoon, being outside of Ishgarde just  because they feel like it, etc. are all frowned upon. And, unfortunately, the server has been fairly saturated by several of those types.

 

Just follow the myriad of hints and suggestions offered in this thread and you should be fine.

[Kellach Woods]

Short of an act of desperation... I sincerely doubt my, or any other player's, paladin (or warrior with their axe) would realistically throw their shield in battle.

Or... Lancers with their polearms?

[Mercurias]

I sort of agree on the dragoon jump ability front. There's a lot of implication that Dragoons are drawing on an "Inner Dragon" for the ability to make those massive leaps, with the Azure Dragoon being able to take it to the nth degree and summon flames to a limited degree, as well as the general whole "Best and most awesome chosen one" thing. 

 

I personally think it could be a specific manner of aether manifestation or, possibly more likely, Dragoons drawing upon a power source similar to that of the dragon cult heretics they so despise.

 

To be frank, my problem with Dragoons is much less about the fact they exist and more about how rare they're supposed to be. In Ishgard, they would be much more common, but Ishgard basically means that you're going to be looking at a race limitation: Ishgardians don't trust outsiders to the point that the current Azure Dragoon is considered to be a great anomaly. Almost every Dragoon in canon is going to be a Hyur or an Elezen, with the only known exception POSSIBLY being the Azure Dragoon.

 

In other words, all of those Miqo'te Dragoons are kind of hard to explain from a lore standpoint. And yes, I'm well aware of the race of my main. He won't ever become a dragoon unless the strangest of circumstances take place.

 

As for the RP concept, I've actually seen a few Dragoons who are particularly well-done, including being limited in their use of jump abilities to large targets/slow targets, being unable to use Jump indoors unless in a big room (like the parlor of a large house), and primarily using it for the sake of agility. They wander the land usually diplomatic reasons (as ambassadors), on a specific quest (hunt the dragon/avenge a comrade/find the perfect slice of cake), or they've become outcasts. 

 

From a concept standpoint, I would state that the Dragoon job crystal is a necessity based on lore.

 

A while ago, I'd heavily considered for a time creating a character who was a Dragoon-turned-thief and utilized his Jump abilities primarily in order to break and enter in a way that would baffle the authorities and grant him easy access to the homes of the rich, with the collapsible, spiked Grand Company lancer weapon being on his back for if he ran into trouble. Ultimately, I'd imagined he would be caught and brought to stand trial.

 

Playing a dragoon isn't a BAD thing. It's just that, like a LOT of jobs out there (White Mage, Black Mage, Summoner, Ninja), playing the job in character means you've got a lot of restrictions based on the lore going with the class. Given how powerful many of these jobs are, I'm not really bothered by that.

[Aldotsk]

 

I'm not sure how I should word this, I just don't understand why with every miqo'te running around as a Nunh and a million sultansworn and undercover Garleans, that being a Dragoon is such an awful thing.

 

I guess this post is really me complaining, but I would like an answer or opinion.

 

There are only 3 of them and they are Highlanders! D: (In Sultansworn)

[Kellach Woods]

I consider the Lancer/Dragoon kit far closer to Zhao Yun/Ma Chao in a DW intro cutscene than anything else seen in an actual FF.

 

I also don't think the jobs themselves are THAT powerful. You draw upon an otherwise unused source of power likely tied to Aether, allowing you access to more specialized abilities and a larger source of strength. You're still squishy.

 

Honestly, it's one of those things that I'm less concerned about in play. Other than the White Mage Exception, I can handwave or find a way to fit practically any job on any race.

[Aya]

This thread is is kind of depressing.  When I first noticed it I thought to myself, "I've never actually seen a stigma against Dragoons in RP, I'm really not sure it exists" (stigma in PvE being a completely different matter).  But, what this thread has done is confirm that it does in fact exist, that very stigma being expressed so clearly and earnestly in this thread.  But why?

 

Believability is, of course, important, I agree entirely, and am always a proponent of it.  But what is being said here is essentially, "Physics, biology, chemistry, etc, these are all incredibly important.  We must agree on them as a standard so that we all have an idea of how this world works.  That said, this guy here can launch fire from his hands, she can cause fatal wounds to mend with mystical power, this guy can smash things like his fists are made of steel, this fellow can use his bow like an area-effect death cannon, these things are all great, and understandable, within our 'realistic' framework.  Jumping though?  That's ridiculous! How could you ever hit anything that was moving? It just doesn't make sense!  It bends believability too far!  Now, you'll have to excuse me, I must go create a magical faerie to do my work for me."

 

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what possible reason their is for dismissing jumping entirely out of hand, while every other completely ridiculous and unrealistic class ability is accepted without the least objection.

 

Warren's point is especially absurd.  Yes, the Dragoon story pretty much sucks.  Its all about the player being the "one", and with possession of the soul crystal just learning how to do all of these things without having to put any effort into it.  The player just happens to be the Azure Dragoon! I just want to make the point that any RPer who tried to use this story as his own story, would be excoriated by the lot of you: dismissed as power-player and whatever other negative terms you like, for trying to claim something so special and unique for himself.  Indeed I've heard this put succinctly as, "Dragoon is fine as long as you're not playing the Azure Dragoon."

 

So, we've both dismissed the story entirely as the basis for any character to be a Dragoon, and then turned around to use this self-same story as justification for stating that Dragoons have no believable reason to be able to leap so high!  Yes, if you're not the fire-breathing bad ass who exists in the story, you're going to need a different reason for learning how to jump in combat.  That shouldn't really surprise anyone.

 

Somehow "unleashing the beast" qualifies someone for the ability to utilize aether, but years of training in Ishgardian martial arts, which put their emphasis and effort into the ability to make aerial attacks, does not qualify someone with the ability to utilize aether to make their jumps? 

 

Not only is jumping essential to the concept of a Dragoon (every single ability has to do with jumping), but Dragoons are literally the most common job in Eorzea (although the vast, vast majority are in service to Ishgard). Dismissing their ability to jump is to essentially write-off one of the most numerous advanced fighting styles in Eorzea. I really don't know what else to say to those refusing to accept Dragoon's jumping ability as canon.  Shall we take the believability razor to other jobs and classes as well just to see what we end up with?  Thaumaturges who hit people with sticks?  Conjurers who literally throw rocks?  Melee classes without their non base-attack abilities?

[Kellach Woods]

Somehow "unleashing the beast" qualifies someone for the ability to utilize aether, but years of training in Ishgardian martial arts, which put their emphasis and effort into the ability to make aerial attacks, does not qualify someone with the ability to utilize aether to make their jumps?

MNK quests pretty much states that chakra = access to Aether for Monk abilities. Inner Beast likely the same.

 

Also, FCOB and other stuffs that pretty much confirm Aether shaped by beliefs... Ishgard being a land of fanatics... EH? EH?

 

Not only is jumping essential to the concept of a Dragoon (every single ability has to do with jumping), and Dragoons are literally the most common job in Eorzea (although the vast, vast majority are in service to Ishgard). I really don't know what else to say to those refusing to accept Dragoon's jumping ability as canon.  Shall we take the believability razor to other jobs and classes as well just to see what we end up with?  Thaumaturges who hit people with sticks?  Conjurers who literally throw rocks?  Melee classes without their non base-attack abilities?

Ninja's more common these days thanks to the storyline and canonicity of ninjas being everywhere in 2.4 MSQ.

 

I entirely agree with that sentiment, Aya.

[Gegenji]

I've nothing against Dragoons or their jumping, myself. I was just doing an amusing thought experiment on how the second half of the jump would work. How it actually works doesn't really matter, it was just fun to muse upon.

 

I've actually not encountered any Dragoons in-character (Except maybe Crisiet, does he count? And even then it was more just goofing off than real RP) and thus have no real basis to pass judgment. And so I will seek not to.

 

It should be noted, however, that anyone can play any class badly - both in PvE and in RP. You can have the Ninja that doesn't move out of AoE because they expect the healer to keep them up while they do "massive deeps," and you can have BLMs who claim they can insta-win any fight by quick-casting Flare centered inside their opponent's brain-case.

 

So, maybe the stigma is less against Dragoons themselves than the number of bad players who gravitate to them? I dunno. As I mentioned, I haven't really RP'd with many Dragoons.

[Kage]

Barring some exception in thread I have not seen it become an agreement to  say that point blank a dragoon cannot use the jump ability.

 

The point of contention is -how the fuck can you think jumping on everything in combat will actually make you a good combatant-. It's -one- specific instance. You're arguing as if everyone said no dragoon in existence of RP has faced it. Or that every dragoon has tried it.

 

As far as I can see, there is only one instance where anyone had even any bias against a dragoon in RP and some people, as they are allowed, find it credulous to believe.

 

Dragoons aren't trained to jump on tiny marmots on the ground. (From what I can tell). They're trained to jump onto and kill -large- -flying- -hulking- beasts. They're trained to slam their forks into big steaks not onto a grape. So it stands to reason to -question- how a dragoon RPer would win their battles against say PCs if they're arguing that because they are a dragoon they have a jump ability that means they will win.

 

But honestly I've only seen a dragoon stigma in PVE which has no bearing in RP and I haven't seen one -biased against dragoons- the same way in RP. There has only been a question of believability if their sole form of battle is just jumping on something. People have questioned how bard songs work. How the differences in arcanism, thaumaturgy, black magic, white magic, conjury are etc. How can lalafells fight other races? Because they all stem from us wanting to know how the lore works. How the world works. How we are to fit our real life expectations in with the FFXIV world.

[Melkire]

MNK quests pretty much states that chakra = access to Aether for Monk abilities. Inner Beast likely the same.

 

If memory serves me correctly (along with XIVDB's dialogue logs from class quests), nowhere in the WAR job quests is it stated or even implied that anything a warrior does is based on aether. Their skills are described as ancient techniques, and the inner beast is implied to be a trance-like berserker state, some sort of primal rage that lies buried deep within. The relic armor is outright stated to be imbued with arcane enchantments, yes, but that's about as magical as it gets when it comes to Warrior.

 

More or less spot-on with Monk, though, barring some simplification.

[Aya]

Who knows what sort of targets Dragoons likely use?  They're probably trying to hit very specific points on a dragon since so much of the beast is not worth the risk of a jump attack to strike!  Learning to hit targets the size of marmot hardly seems unreasonable in the realm of FF.

 

I certainly agree that any concept can be played poorly, but there seems to be a serious "lol dragoon" current throughout this thread. I don't like to see anyone's RP dismissed out of hand, especially with an air of superiority;  it just isn't nice! 

 

Dragoons know how to jump in combat. They know how to do so very well. They've spent their lives learning to do just that. They've honed skills that are unlike any in the real world, and can accomplish aerial feats only possible in fantasy. Just flatly stating, "it's stupid to jump in combat because believable" is not going to count as a valid justification for being a jerk in my book.

[Warren Castille]

If I came off as disrespectful I apologize, it wasn't my intent. My point was only that there's hard(er, comparatively) evidence that the other melee jobs are functionally channeling aether to bolster their attacks (barring paladin, I think, though Spirits Within certainly doesn't look like practical swordplay) compared to a dragoon's practiced expertise.

 

This is actually a subject I run into frequently vis a vis "aether!" being the explanation for everything. Similar to how I believe that a lalafell isn't going to be able to just soak a straight punch to the face by another race I find it hard to believe that jumping over and over allows you to ignore physics eventually.

 

I'll say it again for posterity, though: I've never run into an issue with this in roleplay before. I'm (in)effectively arguing against strawmen and revealing my own snobby biases in the midst of it. I'm hoping we get a bit more explanation about how Jump works, even if they just handwave it as "aether does it!" because then we'd at least have an explanation.

 

That, though, opens up interesting concepts. The title "Dragoon" is only bestowed on people who kill dragons officially. Not everyone killing dragons uses a spear, nor do all of them done the armor. There's a whole frontline in Whitebrim where a FATE spawns and you've got elezen in sword and shield running to defend. If Jump is just martial prowess magnified by aether, it stands to reason that anybody would be able to learn the attack.

[Aya]

Or that could be a difference between the Dragoon "job" (a class of Ishgardian warrior) and the title itself. Paladins have a similar asymmetry.

 

And sorry Warren that particular argument just kind of riled me because it's a damned if you do damned if you don't moment.

 

I also don't like "the aether did it" but it's absolutely essential to understanding and accepting EVERY job, and most classes in the game.  Leaving Dragoons to hang in the wind as the only job that has to be realistic and believable is... I don't know.

[FreelanceWizard]

I think the issue is trying to apply considerations of realism to a superhero setting -- which I argue FFXIV, and FF generally, is. Superhero settings have as a trope that everyone at the same "power rank" is roughly equal, no matter what their source of power happens to be. Sure, individuals may have advantages in various circumstances, but on the whole, your "Power Level 10" characters (to steal a term from Mutants and Masterminds) will all be equally matched against each other. That definitely seems to be the case in FFXIV; fighters whose only "power" is unbridled rage and a giant axe can stand toe to toe with people who can summon giant fireballs or instantly heal wounds.

 

Is it realistic? Not especially. However, our characters definitely don't live in a realistic setting. We have print newspapers for a tiny learned class. We have lighting systems, ceiling fans, robot walkers, and airships, but chocobo-drawn carriages and walking are still the way most people travel. This is a world with a weird techno-fantasy, anime-powered flavor, and part of that is that, yes, some guy can leap dramatically into the air and impale a marmot with pinpoint accuracy -- but if he tries to do it to a Paladin with sword and shield, she can block the attack with a smirk and a dramatic shower of sparks.

 

I guess my point is to be concerned about the narrative and effective agency of characters and not get too wrapped up in what's realistic or not in a setting that is rather fantastical.