Discussion of "Polyamory: A Roleplaying Guide"

[Kage]

Obligatory thanks but back to my question.

 

What makes Keepers more 'prone' to be in a polyamorous relationship than any other race? All the races have intimacy and love in their relationships (ASSumption). What makes them more likely to be in polyamorous relationships than any other individual relationships?

 

There's been snippets of lore that show Keepers as polyamorous as well. They have breeding males, just don't do the titles as Seekers do. I believe Rakka'li posted some information in the "Miqo'te mating strategies" thread recently.

I remember this and from what I had read it didn't lead me to "see" that they were polyamorous. I believed the oddity was that it was one male with lots of females. That didn't strike me as particularly "wow that's going against what our culture says" but "wow that dude's with a bunch of ladies and those ladies aren't getting with any other guys."

 

From my uninformed mind that seems something like a) wow harem! b) seeker like? and/or c) that relationship is not like monogamous ones

 

But it didn't strike me as "woah that's against polyamory"

[Zetchryn]

(...) I do think Seeker lifestyle isn't quite polyamory--but I think Keeper lifestyle easily could be).

 

This is a really good point. I've never thought about it but Keeper's would seem to be more Polyamorous than Seekers.

 

... I'm not understanding, I think. How so? I'm still VERY new/rough on the lore, so be gentle.

 

 

Well the seeker arrangement is more of a societal thing. It's not about love. If one nunh is stronger, they're in charge, the ladies don't get to vote. Though they can leave with the defeated Nunh, this seems rare.

 

Keeper relationships seem more based on romance and personal connections.

 

#also thanks freelance, even though you give me so many warnings I still <3 you!

Oh, gotcha, I think I understand a bit there, though... That still sounds more like they're just more of a cultural 'norm', and thus not exactly MORE likely to be in a polyamorous relationship.

[Aysun]

Obligatory thanks but back to my question.

 

What makes Keepers more 'prone' to be in a polyamorous relationship than any other race? All the races have intimacy and love in their relationships (ASSumption). What makes them more likely to be in polyamorous relationships than any other individual relationships?

 

Here it is:

 

Oh this topic... I can't help but bump it in light of the Keeper lore we got today in 2.45 that pretty much confirmed Myxie's thinking about how Keepers work traditionally.

 

Quote so that you don't have to go back and read it again.

 

Keepers of the Moon – Promiscuity

 

The mating structure of the Keepers of the Moon is much less covered in the lore.  About the only thing officially known is that it is a matriarchal structure, where the females hold positions of influence.  It is noted in their naming guide that “rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race.”  I have also seen it mentioned that male Keepers are highly nomadic.

 

Because of the gender gap in terms of numbers and no mention of a harem structure similar to that of the Seekers, it is highly likely that Keepers exhibit a promiscuous mating system.  This is similar to many bird species, and one of the major hallmarks of this type of system is the notion of female choice or sexual selection.  Females choose mates based on subjective criteria that serve no obvious survival benefit aside from attracting mates:  songs, plumage/coloration, mating dances, etc.  This is reinforced by the fact that the starting attributes of a Keeper character favor the mental attributes over the physical.

 

 

 

"Most unnaturally, they lie with him and him alone!"

 

 

 

 

 

Though I may be misunderstanding your question.

[111]

Obligatory thanks but back to my question.

 

What makes Keepers more 'prone' to be in a polyamorous relationship than any other race? All the races have intimacy and love in their relationships (ASSumption). What makes them more likely to be in polyamorous relationships than any other individual relationships?

 

 

Because there are not enough dudes to go around. So if they want a dude, they gotta share.

[Val]

(...) I do think Seeker lifestyle isn't quite polyamory--but I think Keeper lifestyle easily could be).

 

This is a really good point. I've never thought about it but Keeper's would seem to be more Polyamorous than Seekers.

 

... I'm not understanding, I think. How so? I'm still VERY new/rough on the lore, so be gentle.

 

 

Well the seeker arrangement is more of a societal thing. It's not about love. If one nunh is stronger, they're in charge, the ladies don't get to vote. Though they can leave with the defeated Nunh, this seems rare.

 

Keeper relationships seem more based on romance and personal connections.

 

#also thanks freelance, even though you give me so many warnings I still <3 you!

 

I think, like you said, it's more about society. But it also, to me, seems about duty. Kind of an "everyone for the tribe" so-to-speak. It doesn't mean that the Nunh or tribe as a whole don't respect their women. After all, the women do their hunting and whatnot. They likely know that without them, they wouldn't exist and wouldn't be able to continue their tribe.

[Tiergan]

Obligatory thanks but back to my question.

 

What makes Keepers more 'prone' to be in a polyamorous relationship than any other race? All the races have intimacy and love in their relationships (ASSumption). What makes them more likely to be in polyamorous relationships than any other individual relationships?

 

Here it is:

 

Oh this topic... I can't help but bump it in light of the Keeper lore we got today in 2.45 that pretty much confirmed Myxie's thinking about how Keepers work traditionally.

 

Quote so that you don't have to go back and read it again.

 

Keepers of the Moon – Promiscuity

 

The mating structure of the Keepers of the Moon is much less covered in the lore.  About the only thing officially known is that it is a matriarchal structure, where the females hold positions of influence.  It is noted in their naming guide that “rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race.”  I have also seen it mentioned that male Keepers are highly nomadic.

 

Because of the gender gap in terms of numbers and no mention of a harem structure similar to that of the Seekers, it is highly likely that Keepers exhibit a promiscuous mating system.  This is similar to many bird species, and one of the major hallmarks of this type of system is the notion of female choice or sexual selection.  Females choose mates based on subjective criteria that serve no obvious survival benefit aside from attracting mates:  songs, plumage/coloration, mating dances, etc.  This is reinforced by the fact that the starting attributes of a Keeper character favor the mental attributes over the physical.

 

 

 

"Most unnaturally, they lie with him and him alone!"

 

 

 

 

 

Though I may be misunderstanding your question.

 

Wow - I had no idea Keeper males were nomadic and lived that sort of lifestyle. o_o THE MORE YOU KNOW o/

[Aysun]

OKAY yea I think I was misunderstanding. Wording things. Don't mind me. I can't answer your question as to why people will assume that Keepers are more polyamorous rather than just promiscuous as the lore implies!

[Gegenji]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but I think both sides could be construed as having a sort of polyamorousness to it. It's just whether it's one male having affection/sexual relations with multiple females (Seekers), or a female having the same with multiple males (Keepers). You could just as easily say it's a duty (You MUST mate with the Nunh vs. You MUST submit to a female's wishes) as well.

 

It's just vague enough that you can really go either way with it and, as several folks have shown, this can extend to entire tribes as well.

[Kage]

I mean when I keep reading the statement "they lie with him and him alone" I can read it in a few certain ways. The main one I think of is "He's forcing them to be like in like a harem environment where the guy just wants a ton of females for sex".

[ArmachiA]

I assume it's polyamory because monogamy isn't a part of Keeper lifestyle (to the point where it's foreign to them) AND they exhibit love. So it stands to reason the Keepers (Males in particular) will love more than one person and everyone will be fine with that.

[D'aito Kuji]

(...) I do think Seeker lifestyle isn't quite polyamory--but I think Keeper lifestyle easily could be).

 

This is a really good point. I've never thought about it but Keeper's would seem to be more Polyamorous than Seekers.

 

... I'm not understanding, I think. How so? I'm still VERY new/rough on the lore, so be gentle.

 

 

Well the seeker arrangement is more of a societal thing. It's not about love. If one nunh is stronger, they're in charge, the ladies don't get to vote. Though they can leave with the defeated Nunh, this seems rare.

 

Keeper relationships seem more based on romance and personal connections.

 

#also thanks freelance, even though you give me so many warnings I still <3 you!

 

I think, like you said, it's more about society. But it also, to me, seems about duty. Kind of an "everyone for the tribe" so-to-speak. It doesn't mean that the Nunh or tribe as a whole don't respect their women. After all, the women do their hunting and whatnot. They likely know that without them, they wouldn't exist and wouldn't be able to continue their tribe.

 

I feel like it's not only a duty, some tendency for this may be built into their DNA. Not just any male Miqo'te can become a Nuhn, it's not just a political title.  He should represent the best breed and offer the best combination of physical and intellectual behaviors.  This makes the Nuhn the most reasonable person to breed with as it helps ensure the next generation carries those traits.

 

This could also mean that while many Miqo'te females may have relationships with others, with outsiders, that when it comes to breeding she may look for qualities that may or may not be shared with her current romantic partner.  But I'm just speculating.

 

But polyamory suggests a mutual love based relationship but I don't necessarily feel like that's what's going on when I visit the U-Tribe.  That all seems more like a business relationship.  For all I know, they draw straws for breeding or play lottery.  I have no idea.  But I don't think that romantic love plays all that much of a part.

 

However, there is more than one kind of love.  Love of family, love of community, love for each other, and those might play a much larger role and could be a sort of foundation for polyamory but that's probably a stretch.

 

This is all just my opinion and interpretation, of course.

[Faye]

All,

 

I'm in the process of cleaning up this thread, which is why it's locked at the moment. Once I'm done, I'm going to unlock it, and normal discussion can proceed.

 

EDIT: Cleanup complete. I apologize if I zapped any substantive posts by anyone, but as you know, slicing and dicing threads is a challenging process that's more art than science. If you think I missed anything, or if you want anything to be brought back, let me know via PM and I'll see what I can do.

 

#magicAdminHat

 

At last! Thank you! :love:

[Kage]

I assume it's polyamory because monogamy isn't a part of Keeper lifestyle (to the point where it's foreign to them) AND they exhibit love. So it stands to reason the Keepers (Males in particular) will love more than one person and everyone will be fine with that.

As I've stated I'm very much not familiar where that is, and I'm soooo sorry if this is de-railing Lili's thread but the point was made about races and stuff, where is monogamy not part of the Keeper lifestyle? I understand that there are just lots less male miqo'te (seeker and keeper) but I don't see why it's close to if then.

[Steel Wolf]

Okay question. Semi-related.

 

It would seem that Keeper is the "grindy happy times" race that seems to be prevalent in most fantasy fiction (I'm lookin' at you, Twi'leks)...but there's no real elaboration on how the other races feel about the whole thing, if at all.

 

I'll assume it's really up to player choice, but I wasn't entirely sure. I mean, would it be weird for an Elezen to have a polyamorous lifestyle?

[Kismet]

Not sure how on or off-topic this is, but...

 

Several of my friends and I have been under the impression that the mating rituals of Seekers aren't really commonplace in Eorzea anymore. The whole Nuhn/Tia thing was very widespread years ago when tribes were being traditional and whatnot, but now that it's the adventuring age, many Seekers have left that lifestyle behind. The U tribe in Forgotten Springs is considered an old-fashioned minority, if you will.

 

None of this is to say that there are NO more traditional Seeker mating groups to be found. It's just not widespread or "the norm" anymore.

[Zetchryn]

Okay question.  Semi-related.

 

It would seem that Keeper is the "grindy happy times" race that seems to be prevalent in most fantasy fiction (I'm lookin' at you, Twi'leks)...but there's no real elaboration on how the other races feel about the whole thing, if at all.

 

I'll assume it's really up to player choice, but I wasn't entirely sure.  I mean, would it be weird for an Elezen to have a polyamorous lifestyle?

 

No weirder then a Hyun, or a Roe, methinks.

[111]

Okay question. Semi-related.

 

It would seem that Keeper is the "grindy happy times" race that seems to be prevalent in most fantasy fiction (I'm lookin' at you, Twi'leks)...but there's no real elaboration on how the other races feel about the whole thing, if at all.

 

I'll assume it's really up to player choice, but I wasn't entirely sure. I mean, would it be weird for an Elezen to have a polyamorous lifestyle?

 

I don't it would be terribly weird. Lots of things point to the idea that Eorzea is /very/ sexually liberated. Possibly even more so then our own time.

 

You only need to look at things like the lesbian bar in Limsa, or the fact that eternal bond isn't limited to race.

 

I think most of the other races tend to have monogamous relationships, but there aren't no prudes in Eorzea it seems.

[D'aito Kuji]

I assume it's polyamory because monogamy isn't a part of Keeper lifestyle (to the point where it's foreign to them) AND they exhibit love. So it stands to reason the Keepers (Males in particular) will love more than one person and everyone will be fine with that.

As I've stated I'm very much not familiar where that is, and I'm soooo sorry if this is de-railing Lili's thread but the point was made about races and stuff, where is monogamy not part of the Keeper lifestyle? I understand that there are just lots less male miqo'te (seeker and keeper) but I don't see why it's close to if then.

 

I don't think it was in the lore until very very recently.  The dialogue Aysun posted a few posts back showed the offense and chagrin Mauh Lihzeh felt over some Keepers being held by King Poach: "most unnaturally they lie with him and him alone."

 

To me, that suggests Keepers are very used to sharing and would likely resist monogamy.  Whereas Seekers are expected to be monogamous to the Nuhn (same-sex relationships notwithstanding in my particular tribe).

[Val]

 

This is a really good point. I've never thought about it but Keeper's would seem to be more Polyamorous than Seekers.

 

... I'm not understanding, I think. How so? I'm still VERY new/rough on the lore, so be gentle.

 

 

Well the seeker arrangement is more of a societal thing. It's not about love. If one nunh is stronger, they're in charge, the ladies don't get to vote. Though they can leave with the defeated Nunh, this seems rare.

 

Keeper relationships seem more based on romance and personal connections.

 

#also thanks freelance, even though you give me so many warnings I still <3 you!

 

I think, like you said, it's more about society. But it also, to me, seems about duty. Kind of an "everyone for the tribe" so-to-speak. It doesn't mean that the Nunh or tribe as a whole don't respect their women. After all, the women do their hunting and whatnot. They likely know that without them, they wouldn't exist and wouldn't be able to continue their tribe.

 

I feel like it's not only a duty, some tendency for this may be built into their DNA. Not just any male Miqo'te can become a Nuhn, it's not just a political title.  He should represent the best breed and offer the best combination of physical and intellectual behaviors.  This makes the Nuhn the most reasonable person to breed with as it helps ensure the next generation carries those traits.

 

This could also mean that while many Miqo'te females may have relationships with others, with outsiders, that when it comes to breeding she may look for qualities that may or may not be shared with her current romantic partner.  But I'm just speculating.

 

But polyamory suggests a mutual love based relationship but I don't necessarily feel like that's what's going on when I visit the U-Tribe.  That all seems more like a business relationship.  For all I know, they draw straws for breeding or play lottery.  I have no idea.  But I don't think that romantic love plays all that much of a part.

 

However, there is more than one kind of love.  Love of family, love of community, love for each other, and those might play a much larger role and could be a sort of foundation for polyamory but that's probably a stretch.

 

This is all just my opinion and interpretation, of course.

 

I agree entirely! Val has it ingrained in his system. He is deathly in love with Faye, but he occasionally has private moments where he fights with his natural instinct to procreate and his loyalty to stick with just Faye. I personally enjoy it and embrace it as character development. 

 

For most though, like you said, I think that it's a business relationship and that the Keepers are more love-oriented, and therefore more likely to practice polyamorous relationships.

[Kage]

I assume it's polyamory because monogamy isn't a part of Keeper lifestyle (to the point where it's foreign to them) AND they exhibit love. So it stands to reason the Keepers (Males in particular) will love more than one person and everyone will be fine with that.

As I've stated I'm very much not familiar where that is, and I'm soooo sorry if this is de-railing Lili's thread but the point was made about races and stuff, where is monogamy not part of the Keeper lifestyle? I understand that there are just lots less male miqo'te (seeker and keeper) but I don't see why it's close to if then.

 

I don't think it was in the lore until very very recently.  The dialogue Aysun posted a few posts back showed the offense and chagrin Mauh Lihzeh felt over some Keepers being held by King Poach: "most unnaturally they lie with him and him alone."

 

To me, that suggests Keepers are very used to sharing and would likely resist monogamy.  Whereas Seekers are expected to be monogamous to the Nuhn (same-sex relationships notwithstanding in my particular tribe).

I certainly see how it could be interpreted that way. But the first thing I thought when I read it wasn't "oh man keepers are polyamorous and this goes against"

 

It was like "wow he's forcing multiple women to be with him. He totally only needs one."

 

I guess I'm struggling to see how the fact that they are much more into fulfilling and loving relationships means that they're more likely to be polyamory. Taking promiscuity into account because of the need for males to breed with the larger amount of females, what's in the lore that states that it's only familial and isn't for procreation purposes?

[ArmachiA]

It's not. This is all just conjecture. I can SEE Keepers being more into polyamory. But if you can't, that's fine. Lore can be interpreted in many ways.

[D'aito Kuji]

Not sure how on or off-topic this is, but...

 

Several of my friends and I have been under the impression that the mating rituals of Seekers aren't really commonplace in Eorzea anymore. The whole Nuhn/Tia thing was very widespread years ago when tribes were being traditional and whatnot, but now that it's the adventuring age, many Seekers have left that lifestyle behind. The U tribe in Forgotten Springs is considered an old-fashioned minority, if you will.

 

None of this is to say that there are NO more traditional Seeker mating groups to be found. It's just not widespread or "the norm" anymore.

 

That seems fair enough since there's only one example.

 

But I prefer to play D'aito as having a more traditional background because it complicates the way she interacts with others, thinks about family, and her potential as a mate and a mother.  Giving her less traditional values (in the Miqo'te sense) makes the character too much like me.  I don't want her to be a human in cat clothes, I prefer to play her as a cat in human clothes and I'll take any bit of lore I can find that justifies that.

 

I'm completely open to the idea that the U-tribe are a minority though and I've already RP'd how little D'aito understands the sudden surge in Eternity Bonding, how it's not her way and can't understand the Miqo'te who do it.  There's no doubt that continued contact and interaction with the world outside a tribe will influence and change behavior.

[Kage]

I mean I am most likely just jumping on a stupid tangent going "how did I miss this?!" since miqo'te and non-traditional/non-conventional relationships have been brought up in a guide about polyamory.

[Aysun]

Not sure how on or off-topic this is, but...

 

Several of my friends and I have been under the impression that the mating rituals of Seekers aren't really commonplace in Eorzea anymore. The whole Nuhn/Tia thing was very widespread years ago when tribes were being traditional and whatnot, but now that it's the adventuring age, many Seekers have left that lifestyle behind. The U tribe in Forgotten Springs is considered an old-fashioned minority, if you will.

 

None of this is to say that there are NO more traditional Seeker mating groups to be found. It's just not widespread or "the norm" anymore.

 

You're not alone in those thoughts. It varies, as there are arguments for both sides.

[Eve Malusion]

If memory serves male keepers are significantly less common than female ones. Its implied they have multiple females with one male, simply because of a neccessity to keep the tribe going, due to small tribes with a heavily unbalanced gender distribution.

 

One part that refers to this is: "Rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race." From the miqo'te naming conventions.

 

This doesn't really refer to love, but its likely what sourced the belief that multiple females would have children with the same male in Keeper society.

 

As others said as well, sorry if I misunderstood the question.