Balmung Restriction Discussion

[Kage]

I only have ideas based on what I've seen the servers/worlds operate. Since we don't know concretely the percentages of the population (who's online, what is online), it's harder to know what truly locks it down.

 

For all I know, RMT sees Balmung as the big thing to sell gil in. And yet, I only get about 3 tells a week from RMTers. That's a big difference from the beginning of the game when I got like 20 a day. Why did they stop advertising as much? Is there less activity here? other worlds get -much- more RMT tell activity and their bot pics are -much- much more obvious (not that it isn't in Balmung but they always have loads more than what I experience in open world Balmung).

 

I can attest that the RMT activity on the lower-population servers is much, MUCH worst than on Balmung.  I'm not kidding.

 

On Lamia server I used to get at least 15 tells a day, depending on how often I went into a new zone that number could double.  I had to keep emptying my blacklist of names that were NOT being removed from the game just to make room for the newer, more persistent ones.  Do not attempt the suffering of the low populace servers because it almost feels as if SE is completely ignoring their cries for help.

 

But yes, I think that if we could at least know what affected the servers (as you say, who/what is online?) then maybe we could determine how to fix the issue..

yes which makes me think that it is -possible- (though not probable) that other servers have a higher bot population though they have a smaller real player population. Possible though not probable that they have the same population all together but then why no character creation issues there?

 

But the thing is... if you get rid of the bots (which maybe we have a lower percentage of but higher population of real players) and it fills with real players... what then? What happens when we are at 100% capacity of real players (ideal perfect vacuum situation)? How about, even 90% real since we can't get rid of bots all together. When that population of real players, active players, fills up and are playing?

 

What if we're just hitting the capacity that the world can start to take?

 

AFK kick won't solve that. Removing bots won't solve it. They're only small bandaids.

 

At this point I think more infrastructure work is needed on the server side / SE side.

[QueenFrejyalen]

I only have ideas based on what I've seen the servers/worlds operate. Since we don't know concretely the percentages of the population (who's online, what is online), it's harder to know what truly locks it down.

 

For all I know, RMT sees Balmung as the big thing to sell gil in. And yet, I only get about 3 tells a week from RMTers. That's a big difference from the beginning of the game when I got like 20 a day. Why did they stop advertising as much? Is there less activity here? other worlds get -much- more RMT tell activity and their bot pics are -much- much more obvious (not that it isn't in Balmung but they always have loads more than what I experience in open world Balmung).

 

I can attest that the RMT activity on the lower-population servers is much, MUCH worst than on Balmung.  I'm not kidding.

 

On Lamia server I used to get at least 15 tells a day, depending on how often I went into a new zone that number could double.  I had to keep emptying my blacklist of names that were NOT being removed from the game just to make room for the newer, more persistent ones.  Do not attempt the suffering of the low populace servers because it almost feels as if SE is completely ignoring their cries for help.

 

But yes, I think that if we could at least know what affected the servers (as you say, who/what is online?) then maybe we could determine how to fix the issue..

yes which makes me think that it is -possible- (though not probable) that other servers have a higher bot population though they have a smaller real player population. Possible though not probable that they have the same population all together but then why no character creation issues there?

 

But the thing is... if you get rid of the bots (which maybe we have a lower percentage of but higher population of real players) and it fills with real players...  what then? What happens when we are at 100% capacity of real players (ideal perfect vacuum situation)? How about, even 90% real since we can't get rid of bots all together. When that population of real players, active players, fills up and are playing?

 

What if we're just hitting the capacity that the world can start to take?

 

AFK kick won't solve that. Removing bots won't solve it. They're only small bandaids.

 

At this point I think more infrastructure work is needed on the server side / SE side.

 

I mean realistically, some day, we will hit full capacity with no way to fix it.  With nothing to fix because it is just the sheer mass of people playing on one space.

 

So yeah, maybe this is that point.  Maybe this is all that's available to us right now in terms of the hardware/software combo that SE have available to them.

 

-shrug-

[Unnamed Mercenary]

All very interesting points, I did not know that the 3.0 content was to be housed on a different server!  =Oc  And I can definitely see where the new maps will be the new place to commune for higher players, thus freeing up the other areas.  But yeah, putting everything on separate servers sounds both tough and like it would be negated by specific cities/areas being more heavily populated.

 

Maybe I see a lot more congestion than others because of still being on ps3 (I know, I know...please don't say anything ;^; ) but what about for PC players?  Have any of you really experienced much lag or been barred from entering an area that was too congested?  Do you have issues when you try to contact a retainer from the bells in Mor Dhona?  I've had the system cancel out on me because there's just too many people there.  

 

I guess what I'm asking is, how bad is the server lag for other players?  For me, it can be pretty bad.  I plan to switch to ps4 OR PC (when my tax returns come in) and it'd be nice to know if there's a better world out there, so to speak.  

 

It's only speculation on my part. But from what I know about servers from a little bit of computer science, they should be load-balanced and mirrored, or we'd be having WAY more issues. Our best bet would be for SE to try doing more dynamic resource allocation, like the instance servers, but for the more heavily populated maps. It's a very tricky thing to talk about because we don't have the server details and we don't know the underlying architecture. ...but assuming certain maps have crashed in the past, (like the 2.0 launch), it stands to reason that maps (or some maps) might be separated by server. In that event, SE could try to alleviate some of the congestion issues by mirroring highly populated maps. Like....let's say there were two instances of Ul'dah, channel1 and channel2. If channel1 is under high load, future map changes might try to move a player to channel2. This works GREAT in theory, because there would be less characters to render, but it would be devastating to parties and RP. People would have to manually change over if needed, and it could be abused for FATE grinding, etc. (If anyone played Aion, this should sound familiar).

 

Most of the time, my connection's pretty good. I don't have horrible lag all the time, and I only use something like WTFast for -extremely- bad periods of time. But that's only network settings. A better machine -does- play the game better. But you see this is faster rendering times (like changing maps), graphical detail, and the UI. The PS3 does take a much longer time to load a map than a PS4 or a good gaming PC, given identical networking.

 

From what I can say, PS3 to anything better is a noticeable change. Colors, details and textures pop out more. Maps will load faster. ...you might get more than 20 frames per second in a town, etc.

[Blue]

I only have ideas based on what I've seen the servers/worlds operate. Since we don't know concretely the percentages of the population (who's online, what is online), it's harder to know what truly locks it down. Right now? Concurrent logged in people seems to be the forerunner considering that maintenance has a time when people squeeze through

 

Personally I still think what determines the server lock is the simultaneous log ins. And if you think about it, that is also explained by the fact that the maintenance has a time when people squeeze through. Nobody logs in when a maintenance is about to begin.

 

You also notice that post-maintenance server openings for character creator are longer when the servers go back up at hours in which NAs are asleep/at work/at school, while they're shorter if the servers come back during NAs prime log in time (afternoon/evening).

 

That at least is my main suspicion that makes me think currently online people have little blame in server lock out (they might have it in server congestion, but that is another issue, one that when rised will lock transfers from other servers as well), and as such that the AFK boot feature will have little merit in that field. Personally I think the main blame goes to the Lobby Server which, while it has been updated in 2.1 (with the disappearance of the outrageously big log in queues), clearly is still not good enough for the current mass of logging-in players our server has to endure.

[Kellach Woods]

If this is the limit of people that can get on a server, SE has probably the worst MMO service I've ever seen.

 

Their infrastructure seems weird and outright disingenuous.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

If this is the limit of people that can get on a server, SE has probably the worst MMO service I've ever seen.

 

Their infrastructure seems weird and outright disingenuous.

 

Probably so! ...but we keep coming back >_> <_>

 

Not to beat a dead horse even more, but FFXI got criticized for a lot of weird and bizarre stuff too. And people are still playing that game as well. On PS2s. and it hurts thinking that someone is still using a PS2 to play an online game. Even if it's JP-only now.

[Aris]

Maybe I see a lot more congestion than others because of still being on ps3 (I know, I know...please don't say anything ;^; ) but what about for PC players?  Have any of you really experienced much lag or been barred from entering an area that was too congested?  Do you have issues when you try to contact a retainer from the bells in Mor Dhona?  I've had the system cancel out on me because there's just too many people there.  

 

I guess what I'm asking is, how bad is the server lag for other players?  For me, it can be pretty bad.  I plan to switch to ps4 OR PC (when my tax returns come in) and it'd be nice to know if there's a better world out there, so to speak.  

 

I've read PS3 lag can be quite bad in high traffic areas.

 

PS4 is just as good as a PC I believe, the only issues I personally have are when everyone is getting them, due to my location, or if someone in the family is downloading lots of stuff. It's been great lately - I expected loads of lag with 2.5's release but it was fine. I don't think 3.0 will be quite as good though :cry:

[111]

 

It's only speculation on my part. But from what I know about servers from a little bit of computer science, they should be load-balanced and mirrored, or we'd be having WAY more issues. Our best bet would be for SE to try doing more dynamic resource allocation, like the instance servers, but for the more heavily populated maps. It's a very tricky thing to talk about because we don't have the server details and we don't know the underlying architecture. ...but assuming certain maps have crashed in the past, (like the 2.0 launch), it stands to reason that maps (or some maps) might be separated by server. In that event, SE could try to alleviate some of the congestion issues by mirroring highly populated maps. Like....let's say there were two instances of Ul'dah, channel1 and channel2. If channel1 is under high load, future map changes might try to move a player to channel2. This works GREAT in theory, because there would be less characters to render, but it would be devastating to parties and RP. People would have to manually change over if needed, and it could be abused for FATE grinding, etc. (If anyone played Aion, this should sound familiar).

 

 

 

This is a very good point. Other games deal with large numbers of people nearby by splitting up the world.

 

Lord of the Rings Online did it, WoW does it to an extent, TSO does it.

 

FFXIV doesn't which is bad for congestion, because at a certain point you can only make a server so big, and crowded areas like mor dhona have hundreds if not thousands of people logged on at times.

 

So the choice is either instance zones, like they do housing areas and dungeons, or have them be really crowded and have congestion issues.

 

I'd rather have the congestion issues.

[Kellach Woods]

Probably so! ...but we keep coming back >_> <_<

 

Not to beat a dead horse even more, but FFXI got criticized for a lot of weird and bizarre stuff too. And people are still playing that game as well. On PS2s. and it hurts thinking that someone is still using a PS2 to play an online game. Even if it's JP-only now.

 

Like, I understand you can't stress test as much as you want in a QA environment. You just do not have the numbers to do so (like... At most we would get 90 concurrent players total throughout three companies on a project) which is why most MMOs hold stress test betas, but even those do not come close to the level of stress a successful launch (or re-launch in this case).

 

But at some point, you have to wonder if it's not raw power but outright bad design decisions that led to this kind of shit happening.

 

Don't get me wrong, the game's good but I wouldn't be part of this community if I couldn't get on Balmung first time around and it got progressively worse from May onwards, like there's either more people on Balmung than ever before, or something seriously wrong is going on with the servers in general.

 

I honestly don't think there needs to be instanced zones - primarily because a lot of the game seems to be instanced already, and as I already pointed out, new players technically load into an instance rather than their main city anyway.

[Kage]

like there's either more people on Balmung than ever before,

Yes there is.

 

And if they're not constantly improving capacity there's going to be a limit to be reached soon enough. It's highly possible considering they didn't think that the game would be so successful that they didn't build the worlds to be able to handle a certain population. Once it starts hitting it characters stop being able to be created... and we're seeing it. Especially, considering what we've seen, they probably haven't pushed the limits higher.

 

I mean let's see examples of player movement to Balmung.

RP movement of some Gilgamesh players to Balmung.

The FFXIV /vg/ thread moved a lot of their players to Balmung which started to make the bench crowded ; /cry/jk

New RPers every day transferring to RP.

Old players transferring to RP.

Transfers for PVE (I used to see some people in other servers now moved to Balmung in FCOB statics)

I see very few people transfer -away- from balmung.

[Perth]

I only have ideas based on what I've seen the servers/worlds operate. Since we don't know concretely the percentages of the population (who's online, what is online), it's harder to know what truly locks it down. Right now? Concurrent logged in people seems to be the forerunner considering that maintenance has a time when people squeeze through

 

Personally I still think what determines the server lock is the simultaneous log ins. And if you think about it, that is also explained by the fact that the maintenance has a time when people squeeze through. Nobody logs in when a maintenance is about to begin.

 

You also notice that post-maintenance server openings for character creator are longer when the servers go back up at hours in which NAs are asleep/at work/at school, while they're shorter if the servers come back during NAs prime log in time (afternoon/evening).

 

That at least is my main suspicion that makes me think currently online people have little blame in server lock out (they might have it in server congestion, but that is another issue, one that when rised will lock transfers from other servers as well), and as such that the AFK boot feature will have little merit in that field. Personally I think the main blame goes to the Lobby Server which, while it has been updated in 2.1 (with the disappearance of the outrageously big log in queues), clearly is still not good enough for the current mass of logging-in players our server has to endure.

 

Something to also take into consideration is that before maintenance they always ask people to log out before the servers go down, and after maintenance a lot of players have moved on to do other things outside of the game or are logging in again. The latter being said, with that in mind, it actually makes more sense for creation to be based around those currently logged in, especially considering that every server DOES have a maximum players online limit.

[Kailia]

God the logic of some of them people in my thread... apparently roleplayers are the number one problem for Balmung, nope not the RMT bots, only RPers. And we should shut up and get off their server, especially if we are paying $14.99 to have more than 1 character on a server. Oh and we should also stay locked out to prevent RMT spam too, instead of demanding SE address the issue. Basically any complaints we have, we should shut up about and go away according to a lot of them posters.

 

How are these people thinking up this garbage?! They are even also trying to claim character data, that is stored on a different server, is what prevents new characters from being made. And apparently I am the most evilest of people because I have 6 characters, and want to make a 7th. This is just frustrating.

[Kellach Woods]

And this is why the official forums are never a good tool in any game.

[Kailia]

And this is why the official forums are never a good tool in any game.

 

O_o and now I just had my life and my friends lives threatened.

 

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/220295-Dear-SE-please-unlock-Balmung?p=2785692&viewfull=1#post2785692

 

I still think my idea is one of the best.

 

"accidental death" to a group of like 100-200 of you and your friends alts which would make room lol.

[Kage]

They're actually just hoping "you and your friends' alts" get deleted and not actually a death threat to your person but still. Uncalled for.

[FreelanceWizard]

And this is why the official forums are never a good tool in any game.

 

Properly moderated they can be (CoH had some really good forums, I think), but the official XIV forums, much like the official WoW and EQ forums, are... not. :cry:

[Kellach Woods]

Properly moderated they can be (CoH had some really good forums, I think), but the official XIV forums, much like the official WoW and EQ forums, are... not. :cry:

 

I was on those... eh. I just perused the dev tracker because that was the only thing that mattered.

[Kailia]

And this is why the official forums are never a good tool in any game.

 

Properly moderated they can be (CoH had some really good forums, I think), but the official XIV forums, much like the official WoW and EQ forums, are... not. :cry:

 

Yeah I mostly goto the official forum now to read the dev tracker posts. But given I been trying to make a gladiator alt for 3 days straight, and am not getting enough sleep cuz getting up every hour to try the server, I thought I'd make a post on the official forums. Some of them people on that forum, can be outright vicious.

[Naunet]

Once it starts hitting it characters stop being able to be created... and we're seeing it.

 

If the server was hitting some kind of storage cap, people wouldn't be able to even transfer characters. Character creation is on its own lobby server anyway (as evidenced by how you don't even pick your server until the very end), so I am not so sure the problem is some sort of Balmung population-induced cap. I think the blame falls on their horrendous login/lobby servers, which would make sense considering those were the things that have ALWAYS caused the worst of the game's connection problems.

 

This whole thing just smells really fishy to me. If Balmung was hitting its population cap, they'd shut down transfers too. But oh, wait! Transfers earn them money.

 

Yup. That's why.

[allgivenover]

Once it starts hitting it characters stop being able to be created... and we're seeing it.

 

If the server was hitting some kind of storage cap, people wouldn't be able to even transfer characters. Character creation is on its own lobby server anyway (as evidenced by how you don't even pick your server until the very end), so I am not so sure the problem is some sort of Balmung population-induced cap. I think the blame falls on their horrendous login/lobby servers, which would make sense considering those were the things that have ALWAYS caused the worst of the game's connection problems.

 

This whole thing just smells really fishy to me. If Balmung was hitting its population cap, they'd shut down transfers too. But oh, wait! Transfers earn them money.

 

Yup. That's why.

 

*Quietly hands Naunet a tinfoil hat.*

[Naunet]

*Quietly hands Naunet a tinfoil hat.*

 

It's so shiny! *polishes*

 

But seriously.

 

"We don't have any room for more people here! Completely full! Oh, what was that? You want to send us $18? Well, lookee here, seems I missed an empty space..."

[allgivenover]

I think that has more to do with them not wanting to completely eliminate the ability to play with your friends altogether than it is some scheme to force more money out of people. It's just a way to push new people away from the high population servers, and their desire to do that is more about trying to shore up populations with smaller servers than there being a hard limit on Balmung's capacity (I don't think there is one, since SE seems to handle population limits by zone rather than be server).

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I think that has more to do with them not wanting to completely eliminate the ability to play with your friends altogether than it is some scheme to force more money out of people. It's just a way to push new people away from the high population servers, and their desire to do that is more about trying to shore up populations with smaller servers than there being a hard limit on Balmung's capacity (I don't think there is one, since SE seems to handle population limits by zone rather than be server).

 

Those zones still have to be on servers though. (hopefully split up) ...so I guess a "full" server would be one in which every zone was so full, nobody could move off. ...but I'd have to assume the login server would -never- let it get that bad, because that would be completely stupid. 

 

...I think this is also why our zones are aren't massive. Imagine a really large zone. Filled with players EVERYWHERE. ...it would probably crash the less-powerful machines, and cause lag for others. 

 

Transfers won't be turned off until we start hitting that critical amount of people logged in. ...but are supposed to be enough deterrent to -suggest- players play elsewhere.

 

edit: Naunet pointed out a pretty massive typo. I have now fixed it to what I wanted to convey.

[Kailia]

Once it starts hitting it characters stop being able to be created... and we're seeing it.

 

If the server was hitting some kind of storage cap, people wouldn't be able to even transfer characters. Character creation is on its own lobby server anyway (as evidenced by how you don't even pick your server until the very end), so I am not so sure the problem is some sort of Balmung population-induced cap. I think the blame falls on their horrendous login/lobby servers, which would make sense considering those were the things that have ALWAYS caused the worst of the game's connection problems.

 

This whole thing just smells really fishy to me. If Balmung was hitting its population cap, they'd shut down transfers too. But oh, wait! Transfers earn them money.

 

Yup. That's why.

 

Honestly, Square-Enix is no where near the level Electronic Arts is (EA for short lol). If anything, I have a far far greater appreciation and respect for Square-Enix, than I do for companies like Activision-Blizzard or Electronic Arts.

 

I am convinced though that the reason the server is now locked 24/7, is because of all the RMT bots. I could stand at the entrance of the Sunken Temple of Qarn for 1 hour, and will see about 500 black mage bots appear out of thin air, talk to the npc, then poof out of existence. I don't know what SE is doing, but these bots have been super bad since 2.5 came out. Until 2.5, I didn't see bots like this. But after? They are everywhere.

 

However, FC mate told me how we can mess up their programming. Open a trade window with the bots then close the trade window. Apparently it breaks their programming cycle and they will sit there afk unless killed by mobs. It's why we see so many in ul'dah's aetheryte apparently. People messed with them by opening a trade.

[111]

Is anyone here a network engineer at Square?

 

No?

 

Anyone?

 

Then maybe stop talking like you built the things.