Showing and Bowing to Authority

[Gegenji]

This got mentioned in another thread, but I think in and of itself it might be a good topic to discuss.

 

In Eorzea, we have all sorts of authority figures. The three leaders, the members of the Grand Companies, smaller authoritative forces like the Blades - and, to an extent, the Sultansworn (mostly because I don't consider their authoritative pull to be small, just specialized) - and even the officers in your Free Company if you treat them as an IC faction your character has aligned themselves with.

 

But for those people playing characters in those positions, the Blades and 'Sworn and FC/GC officers, how do you make sure that your character is respected for the position they're in? Is it just a matter that, from an RP sense, that it should be an implicitly understood thing that "I am the law, you will listen to me"? Or do you find yourself having to take steps to show that you are supposed to be (emphasized, mostly due to the fact that revolutionists exist) maintaining the peace or what have you?

 

If it devolves to a show of force, how much is allowed? We are in a fantasy pseudo-medieval-slash-magicpunk setting, after all. I would assume that (in most cases) straight up killing the offending person is not allowed, but how far can a person in a position of authority rough someone up? Magical healing is a thing, after all, so is it more okay to go the thug route and break thumbs and/or legs?

 

And what of the average citizen (or average player character)? Are they expected to immediately obey any order given to them by someone in charge (or, perhaps, dressed up like someone of authority)? Is there a level to which someone could refuse or file a complaint about someone supposedly misusing their power?

 

I never thought too much about this before, but with Judge slowly coming together and his character concept basically being someone with a not unsubstantial level of authority (an impartial figure who is used to settle disputes, from duels to other, less violent matters), I find myself wondering how much authority he should exude and how likely others are to accept him as "The Law."

[Branson Thorne]

Personally, I tend to be a good character, and by good I mean not evil. I will still start fights and rough someone up, just not in a street thug kind of way.

 

Being on the opposite end of the law when it comes to those guidelines I've stated, I know that much like RL, the law is usually going to win. I expect them to go however far it takes (just not killing me) for them to subdue me.

 

Personally, I think they should be given the freedom to do what they need to in an RP setting.

 

In other words, just telling me to stop probably isn't going to work if I'm already in a fight, you'll probably have to pull me off of someone, which then, having adrenaline pumping, may not know what's going on and take a swing back at them>

[Warren Castille]

For the most part, I've found things in RP to work pretty well in terms of respect and "realism" when someone's confronted by authority. There are a few stand-out moments, like the guy that God-moded attacking a certain unnamed Immortal Flames garrison and bragged about it in the Quicksand. He completely ignored and mocked anyone who tried to stop him, as in straight-up verbally spitting in people's faces and asking what they were going to do about it.

 

If I remember right, he was dragged out into the desert by Black Ops and canonically murdered in retaliation. He stopped coming around once we all declared him dead, I think.

 

As for fingerbreaking? That's probably a personal line more than anything else. Sometimes good people go to bad places and beyond that, it isn't unreasonable that sufficient healing could be used to coerce someone to talk. I'm willing to be Brass Blades have a potion fund specifically for making sure apprehended folks walk away hearty, hale and terrified.

 

As for show of force, that's highly variable and probably matters on the result the offender is looking for; Someone looking to get away scot-free isn't going to cooperate.

[FreelanceWizard]

I never thought too much about this before, but with Judge slowly coming together and his character concept basically being someone with a not unsubstantial level of authority (an impartial figure who is used to settle disputes, from duels to other, less violent matters), I find myself wondering how much authority he should exude and how likely others are to accept him as "The Law."

 

That's going to be a problem in public, "open" RP. There's always going to be RPers who, for whatever reason, will refuse to recognize the authority you're asserting. The reasons can range from the philosophical (they didn't consent to giving power over their character to you and they don't see your actions as a legitimate IC consequence to their IC actions, so they non-consent) to the lore-based ("Gridanian citizens are not subject to the whims of a so-called 'Judge'") to the outright questionable ("my character could beat yours up!"), but nonetheless, you can't trust that anyone in an open RP setting will give you any respect or authority at all, much less accept your concept. It's the same problem faced by those who play nobles, the ultra-rich, or anyone else with legal authority and is why I usually advise against playing such concepts.

 

What you're trying to do would work best in "closed" RP, where there's a specific group with rules of which you're a part, and you can enforce authority in that shared story. Not only has everyone involved agreed to your premise, but they also agree to ceding some authority over their characters to be part of a group. Inside an FC, an LS, or a group of like-minded players, you can simply assert OOC that "this guy is the law" and those in the group can either consent or leave the group. The OOC element allows you to enforce a specific premise, assuming the OOC leadership supports it.

 

That said, in public RP, there's things you can do to improve your chances of being accepted. One, be extremely judicious in the application and display of power. Don't go in and do stuff -- be reactive instead, and make sure you apply the least possible IC response to an IC action. Two, always, always talk to a person OOC before trying to impose The Law on their character. Three, don't escalate anything past what the people involved are doing. If two people are having an argument and start reaching for blades, but haven't attacked each other yet, escalating by trying to arrest one of them (that is, going from a social response to a character-altering one) is going to come off very poorly.

 

No matter what you do, though, some people are not going to want to play. The good ones will explain their issue OOC and bow out gracefully (or in my case, for example, simply avoid scenes and locales where this sort of RP occurs regularly), while the bad ones will just troll (as in Warren's example). The number one thing you absolutely cannot under any circumstances do is to demand someone recognize your authority.

[Gegenji]

*all the goodest of points*

 

So my idea that he needs to be approached to actually Judge on things is a proper way to go about it then? I'm not planning on running him as someone who just goes around arresting folk willy-nilly or imposing Order on some hobo sitting in the street. His job, his business if you will, is to serve as the overseer of a duel, the medium in an argument, the final word in a dispute. He's a mobile court that you approach to have your case resolved, upon request.

 

(To the point that I suddenly had the mental image of his Greatsword aka his "Judgesword" having its blade and hilt look like a Judge's bench. He imbeds that sucker in the ground and stands behind it when "court is in session.")

 

As such, I hope to ensure that should he be approached for such things, that the verdict he gives is at least given some weight. He might have a very black and white view on things, but this also includes that it is not in his right to bring about Order unless it is asked of him. Bystanders stand on the side, participants participate. That sort of thing.

 

It just got me wondering about how much pull authority figures actually have in Eorzea. Whether there's an understood policy that you listen to orders (unless you're the sort that doesn't), or if it's commonplace to need to use a little muscle to get what you want. After all, there's plenty of examples of nobles using hired goons to "convince" people to do things.

 

I just wonder how far up the chain some folks might have to be before such shows of force are not needed. Or if those events are the exception rather than the norm.

[FreelanceWizard]

So my idea that he needs to be approached to actually Judge on things is a proper way to go about it then? I'm not planning on running him as someone who just goes around arresting folk willy-nilly or imposing Order on some hobo sitting in the street. His job, his business if you will, is to serve as the overseer of a duel, the medium in an argument, the final word in a dispute. He's a mobile court that you approach to have your case resolved, upon request.

 

That's the way I'd go about it, yep. :thumbsup: It's the same approach to playing a telepath, a healer, or even a Great and Powerful Wizard (or magnifijestic sorcerer, in a certain purple-haired miqo'te's case :dodgy: ) -- make it known what you can do, and let people come to you. That way, you're not Solving All The Problems; instead, you're a resource for people in their stories. If you see a scene where you could get involved, you might approach the people involved OOC and mention that your character might be able to help out, but you're never imposing your concept on others' RP. That's really the key.

 

It just got me wondering about how much pull authority figures actually have in Eorzea. Whether there's an understood policy that you listen to orders (unless you're the sort that doesn't), or if it's commonplace to need to use a little muscle to get what you want. After all, there's plenty of examples of nobles using hired goons to "convince" people to do things.

 

I just wonder how far up the chain some folks might have to be before such shows of force are not needed. Or if those events are the exception rather than the norm.

 

I think it depends a lot on where you go and who you are. With that said, though, my personal read on the setting is that people typically respect authorities, but that muscle is sometimes used when that doesn't happen or when the authority is up to no good. I think of it a bit like the old West of movies; most people do what the sheriff says and he typically just asks people to do things, but he's not above throwing a punch at Old Drunk Joe when he gets belligerent.

[Melkire]

The arbiter-upon-request is a good, feasible concept of authority-in-RP. It requires that those who are asking for you to step in understand ahead of time that they are giving you a certain level of authority (arbitration, use of physical force if need be to enforce the final outcome, etc.) and that they need to respect that ICly when the time comes to face consequences.

 

The example Warren cited was interesting because the attack was unprovoked following an intrusion of personal space (read: an FC house) and that a lethal attack was godmodded by said individual against a Flame who happened to be in the lobby. The follow-up at the Quicksand, thankfully, had everyone but this individual on the same page. The resolution was unfortunate, but at least there were no conflicting accounts on everyone else's parts as to how matters turned out.

 

If you're after examples of folks "high enough up the chain" so as to be nearly untouchable, look no further than Jameson Taeros. Excellently crafted character in a position within several plotlines where everyone is in mutual OoC agreement that the character's unique position makes him very, very difficult to exert or enforce any authority on, and that that's the way it should be.

[Gegenji]

 

It just got me wondering about how much pull authority figures actually have in Eorzea. Whether there's an understood policy that you listen to orders (unless you're the sort that doesn't), or if it's commonplace to need to use a little muscle to get what you want. After all, there's plenty of examples of nobles using hired goons to "convince" people to do things.

 

I just wonder how far up the chain some folks might have to be before such shows of force are not needed. Or if those events are the exception rather than the norm.

 

I think it depends a lot on where you go and who you are. With that said, though, my personal read on the setting is that people typically respect authorities, but that muscle is sometimes used when that doesn't happen or when the authority is up to no good. I think of it a bit like the old West of movies; most people do what the sheriff says and he typically just asks people to do things, but he's not above throwing a punch at Old Drunk Joe when he gets belligerent.

 

Yeah, I figured after the fact that location would most likely be pretty important, but there seems to be some manner of law and/or order in all three cities. Gridania has a sort of stranglehold on its people (I think? I don't hang around Gridania too much to pick up its political nuances), Ul'dah obviously has authority ranging from pure to corrupt amongst the Flames, Blades, and 'Sworn, and Limsa has its "tyrant" and Code backed by the Yellowjackets and the Rogue's Guild respectively.

 

I wonder how ingrained the obedience to authority is with the common citizen, though. Would a Roe wearing a Yellowjacket uniform (or even a Sultansworn's tabard) be allowed to do as he wished as long as he acted the part? It's not too far-fetched, of course, since you might get the same reaction in real life with someone in a cop's uniform. And how far would one have to go to present that air of authority - whether it's real or fake? Is the equivalent of flashing a badge enough?

[Warren Castille]

People masquerading as authority figures can happen now, in 2015, with all of our technology and genre savvy. I'd imagine that if someone was able to procure the uniform and act the part, no one would be the wiser. Of course, getting Grand Company ranking officer equipment is no small feat, nor is getting a set of Brass Blade gear (ask Kage about boots sometimes). Sultansworn armor is probably as-restricted-if-not-more, and all three agencies would likely have severe, severe actions for anyone caught pretending. It's against the law in the real world to do it, and Brass Blades have done worse for less.

 

I can't attest to the Yellowjacket uniform, but I imagine it's similarly difficult to procure in-world. If someone wanted to take that angle, they'd have to be incredibly well connected or resourceful. More, they'd have to be believable in that role, which is yet a higher task.

[Melkire]

Gridanians live under the sufferance of the elementals, whose wishes are interpreted through Hearers (and Padjal? I'm not too clear on the specifics). Basically, if they say you're out, you're out. It's like being exiled. Everyone turns their backs on you. Gods help you if you committed woodsin and incurred Greenwrath.

 

I think how far an authority figure could step before a civilian/citizen would object also depends on the city-state/region in question. I'd imagine there's a lot more leeway on both sides of the fence with Yellowjackets: the civilian is more free to resist authority, and the Yellowjacket more free to exert it. Compare the Blades and 'sworn of Thanalan, who have to constantly be mindful of the more complex political realities of Ul'dah.

 

As for imposters, well, "as long as you're not caught".

[Kage]

, nor is getting a set of Brass Blade gear (ask Kage about boots sometimes). Sultansworn armor is probably as-restricted-if-not-more, and all three agencies would likely have severe, severe actions for anyone caught pretending. It's against the law in the real world to do it, and Brass Blades have done worse for less.

 

I can't attest to the Yellowjacket uniform, but I imagine it's similarly difficult to procure in-world. If someone wanted to take that angle, they'd have to be incredibly well connected or resourceful. More, they'd have to be believable in that role, which is yet a higher task.

In the PVE world, I will never live down using Aetherial manipulation during T9 divebombs 2 too early and not being able to run away again in time...

 

In the RP world I will never live down not having the full set u.u Brass Blades set means you need to have a Tank at level 50 running Wanderer's Palace or Amdapor Keep (NM) and being RNG-loved enough to get the set. Karma sucks when you have the booties pre-decision to go Red and turn in for seals. Then you never.fucking.see.them.again. while everyone else sees them all day erryday.

 

I believe the Yellow Jackets uniform may be incredibly simple to replicate and does not require lvl 50 MRD/WAR also. I'm not sure about the pants and boots but the shirt and gloves looks like regular DoW Shirt and gloves... one is dyed.

[Warren Castille]

Uh, for posterity: My comment on snagging the Blades' uniform was referencing IC, and my comment about Kage was poking fun OOCly. Obviously Brass Blades don't have to raid WP and AK for gear ICly.

[Gegenji]

I think how far an authority figure could step before a civilian/citizen would object also depends on the city-state/region in question.

 

Along this line of thought, do you think the level of when lethal force is authorized is equally variant? How far would someone have to go in these areas before someone in a position of authority is allowed to draw live steel and mete out impromptu justice? I'm sure plenty of it can occur behind closed doors and in other cloak and dagger forms, but I'm sticking mainly to open actions within city walls and the like.

 

Also, how open is the knowledge of authority figures to do this, if they can at all? Going back to the original topic of "Showing and Bowing to Authority", I would think that - ICly - knowing someone can cut you down without legal repercussion would be quite the powerful knowledge to possess. Both in the hands of the wielder ("I can kill you where you stand and no one could do anything about it.") and those of the normal citizen/bandit ("Oh god, it's the XXX, I'm gonna DIE."). In both cases, too... because citizens might be a bit more brazen in their acts if they feel like they could avoid immediate repercussion at the blade of a Blade.

[Warren Castille]

I think how far an authority figure could step before a civilian/citizen would object also depends on the city-state/region in question.

 

Along this line of thought, do you think the level of when lethal force is authorized is equally variant? How far would someone have to go in these areas before someone in a position of authority is allowed to draw live steel and mete out impromptu justice? I'm sure plenty of it can occur behind closed doors and in other cloak and dagger forms, but I'm sticking mainly to open actions within city walls and the like.

 

Also, how open is the knowledge of authority figures to do this, if they can at all? Going back to the original topic of "Showing and Bowing to Authority", I would think that - ICly - knowing someone can cut you down without legal repercussion would be quite the powerful knowledge to possess. Both in the hands of the wielder ("I can kill you where you stand and no one could do anything about it.") and those of the normal citizen/bandit ("Oh god, it's the XXX, I'm gonna DIE."). In both cases, too... because citizens might be a bit more brazen in their acts if they feel like they could avoid immediate repercussion at the blade of a Blade.

 

I've played by Elder Scrolls logic for this, I just realized: You commit crimes, you get arrested. You resist arrest, alright, fine, you forsake all of those protections to due process and whatever the Eorzean equivalent is. If someone straight-up tries to murder someone, I would expect authority figures are permitted to subdue that assailant by whatever means they deem necessary. Someone angrily threatening someone with a knife isn't the same level of threat as an enraged roe wielding an axe in full plate.

 

Admittedly, I've clearly got my biases on this subject. I can only count on one hand how recently this has come up, but it's still a big deal to me.

 

:cactuar:

[Melkire]

I feel that Lominsan authorities would be freest (yes that's a word) in this regard, considering that the Admiralty is the undisputed and uncontested authority. If a Yellowjacket is on patrol and someone starts to get rough with him or her, no one's going to be surprised or object much if the jack tries to bash the bastard's brains in. But then, this comes from my view of Limsa as a borderline piratical environment.

 

Maelstrom, Twin Adders, and Immortal Flames are going to feel very restricted. Unless there's a clear foreign threat to the Alliance (see: Garleans, etc.) they're not going to readily resort to lethal force, or so I'd think.

 

Sultansworn only need a perceived threat to the sultanate in order to take whatever means necessary to deal with said threat.

 

Brass Blades... well, they're corrupt cops, most of them. Take that as you will.

 

I've no clue on how Wood Wailers or the Gods' Quiver would behave.

[Warren Castille]

I SAW THAT NINJA EDIT

[Melkire]

I ninja edit every post I make, what's your point? And by point I don't mean your sword, or your other sword.

[Desu Nee]

This is a christian forum keep your lewdies away :blush:

 

 

Anyway, Gods Quiver and Wood Wailers seems to be focused mostly on maintaning the peace of the forest. I don't think they are as much of a police as much as glorified patrol guards.  I think it's their Grand Company that does most of the law enforcing, as seen in their quests, they tend more to internal affairs and investigations than the Maelstrom and Immortal Flames.

 

 

Buuut that's my thoughts.

[Warren Castille]

I ninja edit every post I make, what's your point? And by point I don't mean your sword, or your other sword.

 

Now now, there's a precedent to give you the flat.

 

I wish I had the power to not show my frequent and constant edits in my posts. They are eternal.

 

Agreeing with Das Knee: Wailers and Quivers don't have to worry TOO too much given the Elementals' presence, but I imagine you don't want to run from someone billed a GOD'S BOW. Wailers seem to be focused more on vermin and fauna threats more than anything, but I'm a dusty city boy so I don't know better.

[Gegenji]

Agreeing with Das Knee: Wailers and Quivers don't have to worry TOO too much given the Elementals' presence, but I imagine you don't want to run from someone billed a GOD'S BOW. Wailers seem to be focused more on vermin and fauna threats more than anything, but I'm a dusty city boy so I don't know better.

 

Have there been instances of the Elementals stepping in to backhand someone getting out of line, though? And you say they don't have to worry too much but... what laws the Elementals lay may not cover some of the things people might still do. From my understanding, it's about not harming the Twelveswood - and yet poachers still thrive without being struck down. And what about violence against one's fellow man - stealing their things or even murdering them doesn't directly harm the Twelveswood and thus I would assume the Elementals wouldn't intercede in that.

 

Not to mention that an angered Elemental might do more damage than a simple pickpocket, so they could be extra busy to ensure some slip-up doesn't end up with the Lavender Beds being flooded or something.

[Erik Mynhier]

The trick to law enforcement I have found is as simple as shooting a quick PM to the ones fighting/lawbreaking saying, "Hey, I'm a Flame/Sworn IC. You guys need a cop?"

 

If they say no I just sit and watch the fun. If they say yes, I hit the transformation macro as I move between them to block an incoming hit. Then I cross my arms and talk them out. Secure in the knowledge both IC and OOC that my character is far and away better armed and armored. I don't have to whip it out to measure with them, like a real person who enforces the law. Law enforcement is most times not about excessive force, its about excessive presence.

[Desu Nee]

Agreeing with Das Knee: Wailers and Quivers don't have to worry TOO too much given the Elementals' presence, but I imagine you don't want to run from someone billed a GOD'S BOW. Wailers seem to be focused more on vermin and fauna threats more than anything, but I'm a dusty city boy so I don't know better.

 

Have there been instances of the Elementals stepping in to backhand someone getting out of line, though? And you say they don't have to worry too much but... what laws the Elementals lay may not cover some of the things people might still do. From my understanding, it's about not harming the Twelveswood - and yet poachers still thrive without being struck down. And what about violence against one's fellow man - stealing their things or even murdering them doesn't directly harm the Twelveswood and thus I would assume the Elementals wouldn't intercede in that.

 

Not to mention that an angered Elemental might do more damage than a simple pickpocket, so they could be extra busy to ensure some slip-up doesn't end up with the Lavender Beds being flooded or something.

The elementals run on an orange and blue morality, and only care and tend to themselves. Ultimately, the Gridania community is an orchid climbing a tree. Benefitial to them, neutral to the Elelementals. But ultimately, Gods Quiver and Wailers priority is the protection of the florest and that's their ultmost duty. They could interfere as the representant of peace on the florest but that would be considered an individual action, and if the elementals wish said person to die, it will die unless you are an outsider.

 

Gods and Wailers will only act in law enforcing if the case is sufficiently big, like the bandit factions in Quarrymill, for they disturb the peace of the florest. Individual cases, they might turn an eye or not, depends on your own luck, rules of nature, son.

[C'kayah Polaali]

Ultimately, as others have pointed out, you can't force anyone to acknowledge your authority. Because of that, you really have to ensure that you communicate OOCly with the folks you're RPing with - moreso than for other types of RP.

 

As for how you deal ICly with people who refuse to acknowledge your character? Well, clearly they're deluded. Some guy brags about killing a Blades garrison without accepting consequences? "Oh, that's just poor old Bradley. He hasn't been the same since he was hit on the head last year..."

[Flashhelix]

Secure in the knowledge both IC and OOC that my character is far and away better armed and armored. 

 

Not always true.

[Melkire]

Secure in the knowledge both IC and OOC that my character is far and away better armed and armored. 

 

Not always true.

 

This. Some authority figures are little more than officially-sanctioned Joe Schmoes who don't always have that luxury. See: run-of-the-mill swordsman vs. thaumaturge.

 

"Mr. Mage, please cooperate. Uh, pardon, ser, I didn't catch that. You'll set me on fire and kill me where I stand if I interfere? Uh...."