Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

[Khadan]

We don't know for sure that all the houses in Ishgard are Elezen and/or that only Elezen are part of the aristocracy. What we DO know is that Elezen are the majority population, thus increasing the chances that they will reach 'station' by population density alone.

Yes we do know that the major Houses are entirely Elezen (three Wildwood, one Duskwight).  There's no evidence of non-Elezen Houses, so I can I turn your own mantra against you? Evidence please :-]

 

The reason the houses are Elezen is because they were there first.  Its their city.  Hyur are newcomers who have integrated over the past several centuries.  The reason Elezen are better and more important is because its their city.  Hyur are newcomers.  Its not much of a leap.

 

 

It only flies in the face of what we know if we accept the very little we do know as the 'end all; be all'. Luckily that would be irrational and something that most people would avoid doing. Does your opinion that "It is likely that non-Elezen may have a harder time advancing in society" a possible and probable one? Yes, if not just from population density then from cultural examples of the Elezen seeming to be primarily the ones in positions of power. Is that evidence of racism? Still no. It MIGHT be argued that there is a class-privilege issue, though, but I won't back that horse without some more data.

I disagree entirely.  Racism is the standard in Eorzea.  We know that Ishgard society is racially segregated at the very top (there simply are none but Elezen there).  It is possible that beneath this very top layer this situation simply ceases to exist, and all live with harmony united by their common religious conviction; however, this just does not agree with my intuition.  It is possible (as I said, we don't know) but I think this is a significantly greater logical leap than to assume that the same stratification is the norm all the way down.

 

We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun.

 

So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.

Evidence in the case of a yes/no proposition tends to settle the matter!  And I would again turn your presumption on the head.  National and cultural racism are the norm in Eorzea.  To weight to overturn the proposition rests on those attempting to claim it does not exist.

 

You've misread. I stated that you do not know if ALL the houses in Ishgard are Elezen. That was to state that there are more than the Big 4, which there are.

 

You're basing too much on your intuition and you disagreeing is irrelevant since thus far you've failed to prove your claim of systematic racism in Ishgard.

 

You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble.

 

Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise.

 

In conclusion you can't shift burden of proof when you are the one making the claim. It doesn't work that way, sorry. You have made very strong claims to Ishgard's supposedly 'racist' culture with literally zero proof other than fallacious assertions. The burden of proof lies on you, since all I've done thus far is say "I don't believe what you're claiming based on the information you're providing".

 

I would like to state that this isn't an attack on you as some posters are getting a little heated. Let's remember that this is a disagreement in discussion only.

[Khadan]

Calm down. Okay so there's no biological issue cited, I guess, though they could be there, we don't know and it's not a topic I really tread often because... meh?

 

I don't deal in conjecture, sir. I deal in logical conclusions drawn from actual data.

 

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

 

See that's why we have 'burden of proof' which lies on the person making the claim(s). =) Otherwise we're just swimming in the sea of Composition/Division fallacy.

 

Take just a second.

 

To do what? I was never firm on the biological issue and later admitted my error as you can observe for yourself. You've proven that, what, I said something and had no proof of it and then later said "okay I was wrong"? Thank you for pointing out my ability to admit a mistake which is generally a positive trait.

[Gegenji]

You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble.

 

Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise.

 

Flipping script again here. With what proof is the first one fair? Have we seen any events in game where someone got in trouble for being racist? Keep in mind that the multi-racial cooperation - and, to wit, the cooperation between the Eorzean Alliance - is, from how I understand it (I believe it was mentioned somewhere but the exact reference eludes me) wrought solely because Garlemand was knocking at their doors saying "Hi, we want your stuff." As soon as the threat passed, they returned to their own internal squabbles without much care about what was going on in the other nations.

 

As for the second. If there is a cultural norm for all of Eorzea (as stated by someone on the lore team), wouldn't it be normal to believe that a nation within the borders of Eorzea would follow these cultural norms? I would figure it would be only natural to assume that one would require proof as to why they are different from everyone else, rather than the same.

[Khadan]

It is evidence that races experience discrimination over their cultural differences.

 

The elite in Ishgard are made up of one of the culturally discriminatory races (much talked about Elezen vs Hyur cultural issue.

 

Cross breeds are treated differently. Conjecture because we don't know if it is Ishgard but they keep mentioning 3.0 so Ishgard is a very safe assumption. That would nake it a societal issue.

 

maybe it is too politically correct to call them out on it? Why would I not call out a city state who treats a cross racial couple/offspring differently not racist???

 

The lore team isnt saying "certain individual of x race". These are broad general statements  which indicate it is the norm for the races.

 

I'm not fully disagreeing with you. I'm just saying we don't know for a fact that it is the case. =)

[Kage]

This is so hard to do on a smart phone. I will now bold a different part.

 

 

Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?

-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

 

Cross-racial?

-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more “progressive.” Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesn’t happen a lot. It’s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.

Part of that still applies. They only recently came together. They never resolved their issues.

 

Things like cultural racism that is ingrained in society doesn't evaporate because your great grandfather moved somewhere.

[V'aleera]

I'm not fully disagreeing with you. I'm just saying we don't know for a fact that it is the case. =)

I think we know all we need to know to say "racism exists". Because Word of God has mandated that it exists. What remains to be determined is the specifics of that racism, how it is applied, to what degree, and to whom.

 

Maybe Ishgardians don't like miqo'te because they get hair everywhere, but they think Roe are pretty alright because they tend to give dragons indigestion? We don't know, but hopefully we will find out in Heavensward.

[Khadan]

You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble.

 

Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise.

 

Flipping script again here. With what proof is the first one fair? Have we seen any events in game where someone got in trouble for being racist? Keep in mind that the multi-racial cooperation - and, to wit, the cooperation between the Eorzean Alliance - is, from how I understand it (I believe it was mentioned somewhere but the exact reference eludes me) wrought solely because Garlemand was knocking at their doors saying "Hi, we want your stuff." As soon as the threat passed, they returned to their own internal squabbles without much care about what was going on in the other nations.

 

As for the second. If there is a cultural norm for all of Eorzea (as stated by someone on the lore team), wouldn't it be normal to believe that a nation within the borders of Eorzea would follow these cultural norms? I would figure it would be only natural to assume that one would require proof as to why they are different from everyone else, rather than the same.

 

It's interesting that all pretense to this pervasive "Culture of systematic and violent racism" suddenly just vanishes as if it was never there the moment a foreign invader comes knocking. It's almost as if that culture of racism isn't as rampant as we thought...

 

In all seriousness, though, we only have hundreds of years of prior history stating "there were wars; people DIED man!" and in the past... let's say 50 years? Almost no examples of racial warring. No Elezen declared war on Hyur or even enacted mass killings on them OR even said "Only Elezen, no Hyur!" We've zero poof of that. 

 

What we do have is many, MANY instances of the supposed racial tensions being overcome so often that it begins to beg the question: Are Eorzeans really racist or are they just all brought up in a pseudo-xenophobic fashion because sociologically people gravitate towards their own and this is, inherently, what tends to breed any form of racism at all? Though if that were the case we would have "strictly $race communities" and we don't. There seems to be an interesting mix of all races living, more or less, in harmony with one another in every part of the world. Hell, even the Ishgardians and their history of violence with the Hyur seem to be okay with having Midlanders make up 30-35% of their population. That's pretty astounding for a culture of racism, really.

 

All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

[Khadan]

I'm not fully disagreeing with you. I'm just saying we don't know for a fact that it is the case. =)

I think we know all we need to know to say "racism exists". Because Word of God has mandated that it exists. What remains to be determined is the specifics of that racism, how it is applied, to what degree, and to whom.

 

Maybe Ishgardians don't like miqo'te because they get hair everywhere, but they think Roe are pretty alright because they tend to give dragons indigestion? We don't know, but hopefully we will find out in Heavensward.

 

It's a good thing no one said racism doesn't exist!

 

But yes I agree completely, otherwise. Wait and see is the best course of action when you've no actual proof of $thing. I'm patient enough to wait. =)

[Khadan]

This is so hard to do on a smart phone. I will now bold a different part.

 

 

Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?

-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

 

Cross-racial?

-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more “progressive.” Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesn’t happen a lot. It’s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.

Part of that still applies. They only recently came together. They never resolved their issues.

 

Things like cultural racism that is ingrained in society doesn't evaporate because your great grandfather moved somewhere.

 

I understand the smart phone woes, truly. My thumbs are fat and full of terrors and when I'm on the bus it's like trying to write calligraphy during an epileptic fit. 

 

You're correct, they don't evaporate, but inundation does tend to dilute racism. Will individuals always be racist little buggers? Of course. Will entire cultures be this way when they're intermixed so pervasively? It's less likely. I like to think of Limsa Lominsa being this great example of what happens when different races and cultures are all rubbing elbows with one another.

[Gegenji]

All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

 

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either.

 

Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian?

 

If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter?

[Khadan]

All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

 

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either.

 

Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian?

 

If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter?

 

Are you taking a discussion on lore to be a personal matter of whom and whom I do not wish to RP with?

[Warren Castille]

To do what? I was never firm on the biological issue and later admitted my error as you can observe for yourself. You've proven that, what, I said something and had no proof of it and then later said "okay I was wrong"? Thank you for pointing out my ability to admit a mistake which is generally a positive trait.

 

Close. It was more of pointing out that you asserted something without citing a source (the burden of proof is on you), based on something we don't know (and appears to be conjecture) and then didn't so much as admit a mistake as you did brush off being wrong and giving it a resounding "Well I don't know anyway so meh."

 

Close, though.

[Khadan]

To do what? I was never firm on the biological issue and later admitted my error as you can observe for yourself. You've proven that, what, I said something and had no proof of it and then later said "okay I was wrong"? Thank you for pointing out my ability to admit a mistake which is generally a positive trait.

 

Close. It was more of pointing out that you asserted something without citing a source (the burden of proof is on you), based on something we don't know (and appears to be conjecture) and then didn't so much as admit a mistake as you did brush off being wrong and giving it a resounding "Well I don't know anyway so meh."

 

Close, though.

 

Are you attempting to provoke me into a discussion on semantics? I won't take that bait if so. I "brushed it off" because it wasn't the topic at hand and, as I said, it wasn't a firm thing that I even stated. It was, at best, an aside, and as it turns out there's no proof of it (one way or the other, mind you). So I guess I don't understand what you're trying to prove here in regards to Ishgard suddenly somehow being this racist hegemony.

[Gegenji]

All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

 

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either.

 

Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian?

 

If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter?

 

Are you taking a discussion on lore to be a personal matter of whom and whom I do not wish to RP with?

 

I'm just saying your putting forth a statement that if there isn't complete, concrete proof on a matter, then you're not allowed to say it might for RP purposes. Which is dangerously close to telling people how they can RP.

[Kage]

For me, believing that a xenophobic place such as Ishgard currently is (as closed off from the rest of the Eorzean alliance as it may be) and how the answers indicate that the societal discrimination is not long gone...

 

I feel that it is an informed opinion to not be surprised to see Ishgard be xenophobic and discriminatory, especially racist. Are there ways against it? I think believing in Halone as fanatically as they appear and being a very good fighter will strengthen the "other" race character Standing with people.

[Khadan]

All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

 

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either.

 

Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian?

 

If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter?

 

Are you taking a discussion on lore to be a personal matter of whom and whom I do not wish to RP with?

 

I'm just saying your putting forth a statement that if there isn't complete, concrete proof on a matter, then you're not allowed to say it might for RP purposes. Which is dangerously close to telling people how they can RP.

 

I can see where your concern comes from, actually. There does seem to a few people that believe or alarmingly allude to "RP'ing things properly" here and there in these forums. In my post history, though, I've staunchly declared against such things and will obviously continue to do so. 

 

My involvement in this part of the conversation stems from the notion that certain ideas can be uttered as fact without any real evidence or proof and others just sort of hit the ground running with it which, ironically, would then cause a sort of bandwagon mentality wherin someone who comes in and doesn't observe what has been asserted to be fact doesn't acknowledge it and is then questioned, derided, or even belittled for not being on said bandwagon. That's where I have umbrage.

 

Other than that, if people wish to RP that their characters were the victims of some overarching racism or oppression and somehow rise through the ranks regardless? I think that's pretty neat. My very Ishgardian character might find it odd that they experienced so much racism and wish to ask them why it happened or what the circumstances were as he had never witnessed or experienced such a thing in his homeland, but that really just makes for interesting character discourse. =)

[Khadan]

For me, believing that a xenophobic place such as Ishgard currently is (as closed off from the rest of the Eorzean alliance as it may be) and how the answers indicate that the societal discrimination is not long gone...

 

I feel that it is an informed opinion to not be surprised to see Ishgard be xenophobic and discriminatory, especially racist. Are there ways against it? I think believing in Halone as fanatically as they appear and being a very good fighter will strengthen the "other" race character Standing with people.

 

I can't agree that it's an informed opinion since we've identified a lack of actual facts but I will agree that you have reasonable cause for suspicion. =)

 

I'd also like to expand on your second point and say that I'm -very- interested see how far being a staunch Halonist really reflects in Ishgardian society. Especially since, unlike the theocratic monarchies of IRL past, we have tangible evidence of the power of the Twelve in Eorzea.

[Edda]

If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

 

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

[Khadan]

If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

 

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

 

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation. 

 

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?

[Iex]

Honestly, I never really have seen much /racism/ in Ishgard. (Though that could be because of racism meaning perspective.) I am not denying there may be some... I don't know every quest or NPC chatter.

 

They are Xenophobic in terms of they don't want outsiders to be to involved in their matters. Lots of pride of not wanting matters to be interfered. Having to rely on outsiders to solve their problems is a sign of weakness that would make other houses lose respect.

 

Most of the MSQs in the North, Pre 2.4ish, involve you actually being purely an errand boy except for literally annoying the leaders with things until they reluctantly agreed to listen to you. If they truly saw you as a lesser being, they would have kicked you out entirely. The matter of which caused folks to trust you seemed to be because folks were too prideful to admit to things. The Ishgardians never seem to consider folks 'lesser' people, just that outsiders should stick to their outside and leave Ishgardian matters to the natives.

 

They dislike folks trampling over their world of tradition and such in the name of "we know better than you." Which is why there was so much conflict about Garuda and the post 2.0 MSQ. They only asked for aid for Steps of Faith and such because the danger of massacre out weighed the cost of loss of pride.  The fact the Ishgardians were extremely grateful for the aid (so far as to GO TO ANOTHER NATION FOR THE CELEBRATION) shows they never thought of adventurers and other nations as lesser just... over Zealous in their ideas of 'good for everyone.'

 

A lot of racism exists between the Elezen and the Moonkeepers, where the Elezen genuinely don't see the Moonkeepers as a civilized race. (Archer storyline and Lancer Storyline)

 

We, also, have to remember Racism in FFXIV is different than in real life. There are actual differences in the races and traits that define their ability. You don't get call racism for giving the heavy box to a Roegadyn  rather than Lalafell. It is a fact of life.

 

((If anything a lot of folks are racist (or nationalist) against Ishgard because they are a bit colder than everyone else (/pun) ))

[Edda]

If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

 

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

 

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation. 

 

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?

Yes, and so will I. I will be sure to necro this thread and PM you when it happens, because it will. If not in 3.0, then 3.1, and so on and so forth. If it doesn't happen by 4.0 I'll give you like a million gil or something.

[Gegenji]

My involvement in this part of the conversation stems from the notion that certain ideas can be uttered as fact without any real evidence or proof and others just sort of hit the ground running with it which, ironically, would then cause a sort of bandwagon mentality wherin someone who comes in and doesn't observe what has been asserted to be fact doesn't acknowledge it and is then questioned, derided, or even belittled for not being on said bandwagon. That's where I have umbrage.

 

And herein lies the crux of my issue with your argument. In no way has anyone stated that these matters are the "truth." Feasible? Yes. Likely? Possibly. However, at no point have they said "this is the truth, that is how it is."

 

Your involvement, on the other hand, seems to consist entirely of saying "well, it doesn't SAY that anywhere, so it is not only not true, it's also unfeasible and unlikely." You're effectively denying any attempt to "bend" the lore for entertainment purposes. These are not concepts that are being toted as reality - just feasibilities that people thought could be interesting to play their character from. If it does not explicitly state it in the lore, you cannot have a character that runs with this idea without providing evidence that fits your criterion.

 

Meanwhile, you do not stand on the opposite point. You don't provide evidence to why it couldn't be, only demand evidence why it could. Your "we don't really know" platform does not hold water, because just as we don't know whether the possible idea is true... we also do not know if it's untrue. So, if you are going to shoot down someone's ideas for bending the lore, at the very least you need to provide your own evidence as to why it can't be that way.

 

What you do not do is lay the job of providing evidence solely in the hands of your opponent. That is not debate - your counterpoint should consist of evidence as to why their idea is wrong or unfeasible, not lay it on your opponent to provide evidence for every little nitpick you throw while you yourself remain unassailed. "We don't know" is not a valid counterpoint.

 

If an idea sounds feasible enough, other people might run with it. To the point that it becomes a sort of understood fan-rule, but it is just that - fan-created. It is not truth and can be destroyed with properly provided evidence in the game or from the creators otherwise. Of course, you are right in that people should not be shamed into thinking that this fan-ruling is the actual truth and derided for not agreeing with it. We are not the role-play ruling body, nor will we ever be.

 

However, I'm going to assume (and possibly wrongly so!) that you mention that point because that is how you feel you are being treated in this thread. However, I posit that it's not because you disagree with the fan-theory, but that you put forth the image that you outright deny it utterly and demand that those who follow it provide evidence as to exactly where it's stated in game this exists (which it doesn't, because it's fan theory). Meanwhile, as mentioned, you do not provide any similar in-game evidence as to why the fan theory couldn't be... because it's in the hands of your opponent to provide all the evidence while you have to don't have to do more than shake your head and say "no no no." I believe that's where the anger and irritation comes from.

[Warren Castille]

For the sake of making this not drag on for thirty pages, let's just all agree to autocorrect "racism" to "discrimination."

 

Hey, past!me. It's current/future!me. We tried, man. We tried.

 

GUYS. IT'S ME FROM THE FAR FUTURE. JUST GIVE IT UP, ALL IS LOST. IN THE FUTURE NOBODY CAN READ.

[GloryRhodes]

 

Relax.  I'm sure we all know all the details of unreleased content by now.

[Kage]

If there's gay sex in Ishgard, there's definitely racism.

 

Calling it now that there will be some side-quests in the city that involve some disenfranchised 1st/2nd generation lalafell/miqo'te being shit on by some holier-than-thou Elezen knights. Feel free to screencap this post for when it happens so you can be like "Wow Edda was right."

 

We just finished with this discussion, I think, wherein it was established that correlation != causation. 

 

So may I screencap and post this for when it doesn't happen?

Yes, and so will I. I will be sure to necro this thread and PM you when it happens, because it will. If not in 3.0, then 3.1, and so on and so forth. If it doesn't happen by 4.0 I'll give you like a million gil or something.

I've quoted two separate occasions from the official forums where Fern said that there is a quest in 3.0 dealing with a cross-race offspring/couple/something ( and the differences they experiences implied or so)