Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

[Leanne]

Gotta remember too that Square could have gone as well the lazy route, copy pasted the same model a hundred times, and said "Job well done!"

[V'aleera]

I've literally only just noticed Lucia is Hyur after reading this. Her proportions/model definitely seem to be Elezen other than the ears, so that's weird.

She is in all likelihood a pureblood Garlean. Some screenshots show her having the third eye, and as I recall Livia sas Junius was also a Garlean woman whose body was the elezen model.

 

Going back to the Temple Knights in general: it's also important to remember that elezen likely make up an extreme majority or plurality of Ishgardian society. Seeing them in vast numbers anywhere is more indicative of their nation's demographics than anything (though I'm not contesting that discrimination would exist in the military).

[Warren Castille]

Going back to the Temple Knights in general: it's also important to remember that elezen likely make up an extreme majority or plurality of Ishgardian society. Seeing them in vast numbers anywhere is more indicative of their nation's demographics than anything (though I'm not contesting that discrimination would exist in the military).

 

I agree. I'm just of the opinion that if they're that racist restricted on who can be a lowly Temple Guard, then they're more likely to be more racist on who is allowed to be one of the legendary, widely-known icons of Ishgard as a nation.

 

That said, still expecting a prominent miqo'te DRG in the 3.0 story just to fuck with us.

 

As an aside: The Heavensward trailer dragoons are, to my memory and eyesight, all elezen, or questionably hyur. If anyone can show me otherwise, I'd legitimately welcome that. It would help this discussion immensely.

[Tiergan]

While I like plausibility in my roleplay and I, of course, like to be lore compliant, honestly if it's within the bounds of lore and well explained I probably won't mind.

 

Here's the thing for me:

 

"I'm a Miqote Dragoon because " I won't even bat an eye.

 

"I'm a Miqote Dragoon for just... uhh... cuz." Will make me dubious of your character but will still not make me not roleplay with you.

 

I like plausibility for ME personally - my characters are deeply rooted in what could and could not be possible, taking rather ordinary, average characters and thrusting them into the extraordinary. That's really fun and interesting -for me-.

 

I don't expect that to be fun and interesting for all people. As long as you aren't lore breaking, and have a well thought out character, the only thing that's going to matter to me is if your Miqote Dragoon is actually just... interesting to talk to.

 

And that's my take on it.

 

I was about to comment on this myself before I saw you did it already.

 

I feel like there is a big difference between a roleplayer who thought out a plausible, detailed narrative on why/how their miqo'te Ishgardian wound up where they are and a roleplayer who just goes "Well, I really like miqo'te and I've been wanting to be a dragoon for forever because they're my favorite class so that's the way it is."

 

Same with any other lore detail of something rare/odd/potentially implausible that I won't explicitly mention in fear of triggering another 10 page long lore debate. :V

 

Also, as an aside - I saw someone talk about miqo'te lancers. I don't think a miqo'te lancer (especially a non-ishgardian one) is as big an issue as Gridania, Ishgard, and even Ala Mhigo have divisions of troops with lances. Your cat basically could have picked it up from anything between the Lancer's guild in Gridania to an exiled Ishgardian knight hanging around the Shroud to an old Ala Mhigan refugee who was part of the Lancer division and uses a longspear.

 

Dragoon is the area where it gets dicey because its got so much importance placed upon it that some people feel Ishgard's infamous xenophobia would prevent non-elezen from ever reaching that far up.

[Melkire]

Do we have any confirmation of non-elezen and non-hyur dragoons yet in the canon? I'm honestly curious. Hyur we know because of Alberic.

 

EDIT: Discounting the main character of course.

[mongi291]

Being a certain class wielding a certain type of weapon is easy because, unlike jobs, there are multiple places where you could have learned.

I mean, if you are using powerful Sultansworn abilities, you are a Paladin and you must have some sort of connection to Ul'dah and the Sultansworn. If you're using the power of your inner beast, you are a Warrior and you must have least met another Warrior who taught you those techniques.

But there aren't restrictions for classes. There are fighters of every kind using weapons of every kind coming from places of every kind. We're talking about Dragoon and Lancers, so let's use Lancers as an example.

The Lancers' Guild is in Gridania, sure. But we have not only Gridanian Lancers, but Ishgardian Dragoons, Ala Mhigan Lancers, Garlean Lancers (called Eques), and even beastmen Lancers: we see Ixali, Amalj'aa, Kobold and Sahagin Lancers. Maybe even Sylphs too, but I'm not too sure about them.

[Swashbuckler]

As has been mentioned, technically none of the races are "native" to Eorzea at all. So none of them are natively Ishgardian. Elezen and Hyur just happen to be the majority. Which makes your point I kinda snipped out for length quite relevant - they are the majority, not the sole occupants of Ishgard. They may hold the highest positions and see themselves as "true" Ishgardians, that doesn't mean there couldn't be some low-class Roegadyn or Miqo'te family in there somewhere struggling to survive the rigors of the caste-based society and racial tensions.

 

I could be wrong but, doesn't it state somewhere that says Elezen are actually the only race native to Eorzea?

[Gegenji]

Just being nitpicky. Elezen are also not native to Eorzea. They immigrated here first from the north (Ilsabard) and Roegadyn immigrated here from the North Sea Isles. Mankind is not native to Eorzea. Only gods and beasts lived here in the "Time of the Twelve." When Mankind first arrived in Eorzea, it started the "Age of Man" aka the 1st Astral Era.

 

I also remember Sounsyy mentioning that the Elezen then proclaimed that they were the first Race of Man in Eorzea despite others having been there first, but I can't remember where. It's basically just Elezen Superiority Complex striking again.

[Aya]

I could be wrong but, doesn't it state somewhere that says Elezen are actually the only race native to Eorzea?

I believe that is how they view themselves, since they were the first men to arrive (and you know how Elezen are!)

[Dasair]

As has been mentioned, technically none of the races are "native" to Eorzea at all. So none of them are natively Ishgardian. Elezen and Hyur just happen to be the majority. Which makes your point I kinda snipped out for length quite relevant - they are the majority, not the sole occupants of Ishgard. They may hold the highest positions and see themselves as "true" Ishgardians, that doesn't mean there couldn't be some low-class Roegadyn or Miqo'te family in there somewhere struggling to survive the rigors of the caste-based society and racial tensions.

 

I could be wrong but, doesn't it state somewhere that says Elezen are actually the only race native to Eorzea?

 

 

 

"The Elezen once claimed sole dominion over Eorzea, their presence predating that of the other races, and, as such, developed a heightened sense of honor and pride."

 

That is the quote from Here.

 

"They are the race that has lived in Eorzea the longest and co-exist peacefully with the other races."

 

That is a quote from Here.

 

So.. not necessarily native, they've just been there the longest duration. At least that's what you might be thinking of, though I could be wrong.

[V'aleera]

I agree. I'm just of the opinion that if they're that racist restricted on who can be a lowly Temple Guard, then they're more likely to be more racist on who is allowed to be one of the legendary, widely-known icons of Ishgard as a nation.

I think you're attributing a fair bit more celebrity to dragoons than the lore actually displays them having. As far as I can tell, Ishgard is more famous for its chocobos than its dragoons.

 

What's more, I actually get the impression that the Temple Knights are the more prestigious of the two groups. Where the dragoons are a highly specialized and skilled military division, the Temple Knights appear to be Sultansworn equivalents in a nation where the singular high authority (the Archbishop) wields absolute power (rather than the marginalized power of the Sultana).

[Seriphyn]

I...thirteen pages?

 

 

I'm such an instigating little bitch, good Lord.

[Warren Castille]

I agree. I'm just of the opinion that if they're that racist restricted on who can be a lowly Temple Guard, then they're more likely to be more racist on who is allowed to be one of the legendary, widely-known icons of Ishgard as a nation.

I think you're attributing a fair bit more celebrity to dragoons than the lore actually displays them having. As far as I can tell, Ishgard is more famous for its chocobos than its dragoons.

 

What's more, I actually get the impression that the Temple Knights are the more prestigious of the two groups. Where the dragoons are a highly specialized and skilled military division, the Temple Knights appear to be Sultansworn equivalents in a nation where the singular high authority (the Archbishop) wields absolute power (rather than the marginalized power of the Sultana).

 

Uh...?

 

“Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon. Born amidst the timeless conflict between men and dragons, these lance-wielding knights have developed an aerial style of combat, that they might better pierce the scaled hides of their mortal foes.

Taking to the firmament as though it were an extension of the land, they descend upon the enemy with every onze of their bodies behind the blow. It is this penetrative power that characterizes the dragoon.”

—Game Description

 

It says as much right here.

[V'aleera]

That does not contradict my assertion. I never said dragoons weren't widely known, I simply said that I believed, based on the lore present in the game, that you are over-blowing their importance in Ishgardian society while undervaluing the extremely prestigious role of the Temple Knights.

[Gegenji]

That does not contradict my assertion. I never said dragoons weren't widely known, I simply said that I believed, based on the lore present in the game, that you are over-blowing their importance in Ishgardian society while undervaluing the extremely prestigious role of the Temple Knights.

 

Maybe they're both equally important.

 

The Temple Knights are a direct guardian of the Holy See, a prestigious position indeed! On the other you have the Dragoons, Ishgard's best line of defense in dealing with the Dravarian threat, a sign of Ishgardian might in the face of the worst adversity. Both are important in their own ways - one protects the leader of their people, the other protects the people themselves from threats.

 

... Kinda like the Sultansworn and Free Paladins, oddly enough. Maybe all the Temple Knights are Dragoons in ceremonial armor instead of the trademark 'goonsuit! :lol:

[Melkire]

I'd actually disagree. Temple Knights seem more equivalent to Brass Blades or Immortal Flames, in a way. They get mentioned all the time and as far as the Main Story Quests go, they are basically cannon fodder.

[V'aleera]

I'd actually disagree. Temple Knights seem more equivalent to Brass Blades or Immortal Flames, in a way. They get mentioned all the time and as far as the Main Story Quests go, they are basically cannon fodder.

In Whitebrim there is an actual cannon fodder knight you meet in the course of the MSQ. He asks you to go find the corpse of the big dragon he killed; when you do, he is utterly elated and believes that he'll be receiving a highly coveted promotion to the Temple Knights befitting a noble like himself.

 

In another quest, you're asked to venture into the lair of the behemoth and recover the corpses of a bunch of scrubby dragoons who royally screwed up and got wiped.

 

I will try and find these to link here.

[Melkire]

I'd actually disagree. Temple Knights seem more equivalent to Brass Blades or Immortal Flames, in a way. They get mentioned all the time and as far as the Main Story Quests go, they are basically cannon fodder.

In Whitebrim there is an actual cannon fodder knight you meet in the course of the MSQ. He asks you to go find the corpse of the big dragon he killed; when you do, he is utterly elated and believes that he'll be receiving a highly coveted promotion to the Temple Knights befitting a noble like himself.

 

In another quest, you're asked to venture into the lair of the behemoth and recover the corpses of a bunch of scrubby dragoons who royally screwed up and got wiped.

 

I will try and find these to link here.

 

Thank you, I'd like to read those. I vaguely recall the quests in question.

 

My comment sprang up more from recent quests featuring Ser Aymeric. He refers to the Temple Knights as often and as frequently as Raubahn referred to the Immortal Flames, and in much the same way/manner. Unless I'm misunderstanding the Temple Knight designation, I think the comparison stands. The Temple Knights are the lancers in those hauberks with the blue vambraces, are they not? A few of them were betrayed and slaughtered by Iceheart's faction prior to Steps of Faith?

[V'aleera]

They are the blue people, yes. Though I think they run the whole gamut of which weapons they use. Some spears, some sword and board, and I think even one used a conjury wand.

[Melkire]

They are the blue people, yes. Though I think they run the whole gamut of which weapons they use. Some spears, some sword and board, and I think even one used a conjury wand.

 

Yeah, they do, I just figured "lancer" was the easier reference, given their seeming predisposition towards polearms.

[Yssen]

A couple of things. 

 

1. While the Archbishop video can be a good source, it really only proves that there are only Elezen in that chamber with the Archbishop for whatever ceremony is going on. Using it as proof that there are no miqo in it and thus no miqo in the Ishgardian military would also mean that there are no other races other than Elezen in the Ishgardian military. Which we know to be incorrect. Natalie has the right of it here. It only serves as proof that there are only Elezen in that presentation, for whatever reason. 

 

2. Assuming that the Dragoons are the most prestigious thing to come out of Ishgard is quite the assumption. There is no evidence that they are more prestigious than the Temple Knights. If they were the end all be all of Ishgard's forces, why were none of them present (other than the Azure Dragoon) for the battle at the Steps of Faith? The Temple Knights were the only elite forces in that engagement. This would seem to reflect that both orders are on somewhat equal footing as far as being elite goes. If you are not going to toss out a bunch of Dragoons when a giant dagron attacks, when are you going to throw them out?

[V'aleera]

Alright, have some links:

 

To begin, the quest involving the man looking for a promotion can be found here: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Bone_Collector

 

I have gone to get his flavor text after the quest is resolved which you can find here: http://i.imgur.com/4rhbAe6.jpg

 

Note how he describes the Temple Knights as "the pinnacle".

 

The quest I was remembering didn't involve dead dragoons, but moreso dumb dragons who needed some liquid courage to make a run for it: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Days_of_Brandewine_and_Behemoths

 

And finally as an added bonus, a quest about a dragoon that took a fall and got stuck on a cliffside ledge and needs a rope to climb up (possibly pertinent to the discussion of what caliber dragoon can do the fancy jumps, but I don't remember if the man was injured or not): http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Living_on_the_Edge

[Faye]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here as usual and point out the double standard that a room full of Elezen is written off as something that only applies to that place at that time and is indicative of nothing else, yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...

[Melkire]

1. While the Archbishop video can be a good source, it really only proves that there are only Elezen in that chamber with the Archbishop for whatever ceremony is going on. Using it as proof that there are no miqo in it and thus no miqo in the Ishgardian military would also mean that there are no other races other than Elezen in the Ishgardian military. Which we know to be incorrect. Natalie has the right of it here. It only serves as proof that there are only Elezen in that presentation, for whatever reason. 

 

*cough*racism*cough*

 

EDIT: To clarify, I'm of the opinion that only Elezen were present in that scene because the Ishgardians present a very xenophobic front that implies a trend of racism among its populace. I would not be surprised to learn that only Elezen knights are permitted in the presence of the Holy See / Isghardian archbishop or pope / whatever the nomenclature for the Head of Ishgard is.

 

2. Assuming that the Dragoons are the most prestigious thing to come out of Ishgard is quite the assumption. There is no evidence that they are more prestigious than the Temple Knights. If they were the end all be all of Ishgard's forces, why were none of them present (other than the Azure Dragoon) for the battle at the Steps of Faith? The Temple Knights were the only elite forces in that engagement. This would seem to reflect that both orders are on somewhat equal footing as far as being elite goes. If you are not going to toss out a bunch of Dragoons when a giant dagron attacks, when are you going to throw them out?

 

It was very clearly and specifically mentioned that the conflict which Steps of Faith represents is but one of many happening at the same time as the dragons assault Ishgard. Where were the rest of the dragoons? Fending off those simultaneous attacks, I'd wager.

 

 

Alright, have some links:

 

To begin, the quest involving the man looking for a promotion can be found here: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Bone_Collector

 

I have gone to get his flavor text after the quest is resolved which you can find here: http://i.imgur.com/4rhbAe6.jpg

 

Note how he describes the Temple Knights as "the pinnacle".

 

Could argue that his choice of diction is because he's twiddling his thumbs out in the middle of Coerthas instead of in Ishgard defending the homeland.

 

The quest I was remembering didn't involve dead dragoons, but moreso dumb dragoons who needed some liquid courage to make a run for it: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Days_of_Brandewine_and_Behemoths

 

And finally as an added bonus, a quest about a dragoon that took a fall and got stuck on a cliffside ledge and needs a rope to climb up (possibly pertinent to the discussion of what caliber dragoon can do the fancy jumps, but I don't remember if the man was injured or not): http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Living_on_the_Edge

 

These are bizarre oddities. I can only conclude that "dragoon" then is a general term used for a specific caliber of knights, as previously suggested, with those in drachen mail being the elite.

[V'aleera]

 

Alright, have some links:

 

To begin, the quest involving the man looking for a promotion can be found here: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Bone_Collector

 

I have gone to get his flavor text after the quest is resolved which you can find here: http://i.imgur.com/4rhbAe6.jpg

 

Note how he describes the Temple Knights as "the pinnacle".

 

Could argue that his choice of diction is because he's twiddling his thumbs out in the middle of Coerthas instead of in Ishgard defending the homeland.

Well at that point in time, you have to remember that Ishgard proper was still an impenetrable city-fortress of anti-dragon doom. The entire point of Steps of Faith was that the Dravanians were finally try to strike at the city itself.

 

Coerthas is the Ishgardian homeland; it's their territory and it's where many of their citizens live (less so now, possibly, after the Calamity and Snowcloak cutting off an entire section to the west).

 

Your thoughts on the nature of the dragoons within the military mirror my own.