Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

[Melkire]

What Gengenji said. How does Gridania being known for racism somehow preclude Ishgard from being likewise?

[Marisa]

What Gengenji said. How does Gridania being known for racism somehow preclude Ishgard from being likewise?

But you're all ignoring the part where Ishgard, to my knowledge, has never expressed any racism. Everyone just assumed they were racist without any real evidence.

[Gegenji]

What Gengenji said. How does Gridania being known for racism somehow preclude Ishgard from being likewise?

But you're all ignoring the part where Ishgard, to my knowledge, has never expressed any racism. Everyone just assumed they were racist without any real evidence.

 

I'm not saying they are racist, I'm just saying there's nothing place saying that they can't be. After all, considering what's said on the lore panels... EVERY race is racist to some degree to the other races. And even between the clans in a couple cases (see "Highlander superiority" and the aforementioned Wildwood/Duskwight conflict).

 

We do know that Ishgard is xenophobic - they dislike those not from Ishgard. Furthermore, most of the predominant Houses seem to be Elezen, as well as the Holy See himself. This could be simply a matter of demographics, sure, but you can't discount the idea that there could be a belief that the Elezen are the "truer" Ishgardians and thus the ones in such stations. Or just a practice where Elezens are given more consideration than the others. It's not blatant, segregated bathrooms racism... but it's still racism.

 

Ultimately, we really won't know until those gates are open and we get a better look at Ishgard and its people.

[Aya]

What Gengenji said. How does Gridania being known for racism somehow preclude Ishgard from being likewise?

But you're all ignoring the part where Ishgard, to my knowledge, has never expressed any racism. Everyone just assumed they were racist without any real evidence.

Rampant well-known xenophobia combined with a preference for the repressive, and a homogenous racial composition of the upper echelon of their society makes this less a logical leap, and more of a slight logical shuffling forward of the feet.

[Khadan]

Are we shifting to a discussion on socio-political issues now? 

 

Well in light of my previous post on population which was largely ignored because data is hard I'll just jump in on this segue and say that, much like a population census, if you want to actually make a claim for the existence of cultural racism then you need examples. Like perhaps a majority of the NPC's saying "Man Miqo'te are lame and I don't like them because reasons" or "Lalafell are popatos and creepy and we should boil em, mash em, and stick em in a stew" or whatnot. Systematic racism is only 'systematic' when the majority of the people in said system feel the same way. Unlike tumblr racism where it exists because muh feelz and someone on a blog said so.

 

 

Provide data to back up your claims/assertions and from there we proceed. =)

 

 

btw Gridania is pretty effing racist.

 

 

Also Ul'Dah against Ala Mhigans.

[Gegenji]

Well in light of my previous post on population which was largely ignored because data is hard I'll just jump in on this segue and say that, much like a population census, if you want to actually make a claim for the existence of cultural racism then you need examples.

 

Wasn't there a developer comment or post or something that straight up said how the races hated each other in response to a question on crossbreeds? I think it's been quoted every time the topic comes up. Also the WPHM quest's gay couple that's hated on more for being two different races rather than their genders - that one keeps being brought up too.

[Melodia]

 

Rampant well-known xenophobia combined with a preference for the repressive, and a homogenous racial composition of the upper echelon of their society makes this less a logical leap, and more of a slight logical shuffling forward of the feet.

This actually sounds a bit more like Nationalism as opposed to racism. Though racism tends to be a component in aggressive nationalist states.

 

*Quickly dives for cover and hides Political Science hat*

[Khadan]

Well in light of my previous post on population which was largely ignored because data is hard I'll just jump in on this segue and say that, much like a population census, if you want to actually make a claim for the existence of cultural racism then you need examples.

 

Wasn't there a developer comment or post or something that straight up said how the races hated each other in response to a question on crossbreeds? I think it's been quoted every time the topic comes up. Also the WPHM quest's gay couple that's hated on more for being two different races rather than their genders - that one keeps being brought up too.

 

Brought up by whom? 

 

Anyway yeah there's racial tension in the world. That was never disputed as far as I know.

 

The question currently, though I don't know why to be honest: "Is Ishgard Racist". To which, in of itself, we have very little-to-no evidence of in game or, really, out of game for. Elezen may not like Highlanders or Roe, or Lalafellin may hate everyone (no, really, Lalafell are probably the most racist group in all of Eorzea given the examples in game), but as a society/culture? Gridanians consistently seem to decry Duskwights and outsiders in general, Ul'Dahns disparage the Ala Mhigans and turn away the Domans. 

 

Ishgard just doesn't want any of your filthy 'thought crimes' seeping into their theocracy. Is it Orwellian? Sure. Is it kinda dumb? Also sure. But is it -racist-? Nah.

 

Note: I actually can understand why as a society that the Ishgardians have developed the way they have. Warrior nations tend to be very dogmatic as a system of enforcing and reinforcing their cultural decisions. Especially in the face of a 1000 year war against enemies that apparently can shapeshift and infiltrate your ranks as well as mind control your citizens by simply looking into their eyes. Having an established and rigid cultural guideline makes it harder for Dravanian agents to infiltrate unless you're a Holy See Inquisitor, apparently, who knew?

[Aya]

 

Rampant well-known xenophobia combined with a preference for the repressive, and a homogenous racial composition of the upper echelon of their society makes this less a logical leap, and more of a slight logical shuffling forward of the feet.

This actually sounds a bit more like Nationalism as opposed to racism. Though racism tends to be a component in aggressive nationalist states.

 

*Quickly dives for cover and hides Political Science hat*

What we know about Ishgard and the world itself lends itself naturally to the conclusion that Ishgard is highly and systematically rascist.  It is not proven, perhaps l, but is an easy inference.  I think that it tries to cultivate religio-nationalistic sentiment in its cannon-fodd... I mean in its citizenry is beyond obvious

[Kage]

Ul'dah could definitely be argued as racist against Ala Mhigans but it's generally a widespread commercial dislike. If they were truly racist against Ala Mhigans the love for Raubahn probably wouldn't be as great. It's a general dislike for the refugees as they see them generally as free-loaders. Granted I don't know how 1.0 presents the struggles they faced so I could be wrong. I see it as a classist discrimination more than anything.

 

Here are the often quoted examples. These are taken from Fanfest, not the actual panel but the interview.

Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?

-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

Cross-racial?

-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more “progressive.” Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesn’t happen a lot. It’s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.

 

Taken from this thread answered almost 4 years ago

Can different races crossbreed?

 

Answer: Yes, but it is rare...and often difficult due to cultural differences, etc. which is why you don't see it often. The lore team has informed me that there will be future quests/events that touch on this and other issues, such as love and marriage.

[Sounsyy]

Nobles in Ishgard are likely most or all Elezen. The four High Nobles Houses are made up of 3 Wildwood families and 1 Dudkwight. Per lore, the 4 High Noble Houses came to be because they were the friends of Haldrath, the first Azure Dragoon, and the man who defeated Nidhogg.

 

Other, lesser Noble Houses exist, but all of the few we've seen so far have been Elezen. Why no Hyur? Because Hyur did not integrate into Ishgardian society until roughly 450-500 years ago.

 

Remember Hyur came to Eorzea in three great migratory waves starting 1000 years ago. These first settlers were the Highlanders, who brought war to the Elezen. They conquered Gyr Abania from the Elezen and tried to conquer Belah'dia to the south. The first wave of Midlanders started showing up between 500-800 years ago. Now, while the Hyur and Elezen waged war across the rest of Eorzea, the Elezen of Gelmorra made peace with the Hyur who also wished to live in the Twelveswood. This act would later make the founding of Gridania possible. But this was the first time Hyur and Elezen had come to peace in Eorzea.

 

So the peace between Ishgardian Elezen and Hyur would have come later. Its possible these new Hyuran Ishgardians could have become nobility, as the lower houses and military seem to follow a meritorious system. ALord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean. So about anything seems possible in Ishgard.

[Gegenji]

Well in light of my previous post on population which was largely ignored because data is hard I'll just jump in on this segue and say that, much like a population census, if you want to actually make a claim for the existence of cultural racism then you need examples.

 

Wasn't there a developer comment or post or something that straight up said how the races hated each other in response to a question on crossbreeds? I think it's been quoted every time the topic comes up. Also the WPHM quest's gay couple that's hated on more for being two different races rather than their genders - that one keeps being brought up too.

 

Brought up by whom?

 

Um... whoever needs an official reference to why crossbreeds are an uncommon thing? I mean, look through some of the threads about whether or not races can crossbreed and stuff and those details get mentioned. I mean, I can hunt them down and quote the quote if needed, but I've seen it pop up often enough in those threads I figured it was basically an understood by this point.

 

EDIT: Or Kage'll just have them handy, haha. :lol:

[V'aleera]

Lord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn

This I didn't know. Do you recall where this is referenced?

[Marisa]

But Aya, this entire premise rests on the idea that religious zealotry is inherently racist. But the thing of it is, Ishgard really gives 0 shits what size or color you are, or whether or not you have a tail. What we currently know of Ishgard is this: They see the world as two categories of people: Believers and Unbelievers. Anything else is a minor detail.

[Khadan]

Well in light of my previous post on population which was largely ignored because data is hard I'll just jump in on this segue and say that, much like a population census, if you want to actually make a claim for the existence of cultural racism then you need examples.

 

Wasn't there a developer comment or post or something that straight up said how the races hated each other in response to a question on crossbreeds? I think it's been quoted every time the topic comes up. Also the WPHM quest's gay couple that's hated on more for being two different races rather than their genders - that one keeps being brought up too.

 

Brought up by whom?

 

Um... whoever needs an official reference to why crossbreeds are an uncommon thing? I mean, look through some of the threads about whether or not races can crossbreed and stuff and those details get mentioned. I mean, I can hunt them down and quote the quote if needed, but I've seen it pop up often enough in those threads I figured it was basically an understood by this point.

 

EDIT: Or Kage'll just have them handy, haha. :lol:

 

I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.

[Melkire]

...and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean.

 

To my knowledge and recollection, this was not implied or confirmed anywhere, merely speculated due to appearance. Did I miss a lore drop somewhere? I probably did. :<

[Aya]

But Aya, this entire premise rests on the idea that religious zealotry is inherently racist. But the thing of it is, Ishgard really gives 0 shits what size or color you are, or whether or not you have a tail. What we currently know of Ishgard is this: They see the world as two categories of people: Believers and Unbelievers. Anything else is a minor detail.

No it doesnt.  It rests on the extreme nature of Ishgardian culture (of which their zealotry is but one symptom) combined with the clear existence of a racial elite, in a world where racism is the norm.

[Marisa]

...and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean.

 

To my knowledge and recollection, this was not implied or confirmed anywhere, merely speculated due to appearance. Did I miss a lore drop somewhere? I probably did. :<

Someone on reddit awhile back data-mined the models. She has a third eye under her circlet. We only know of one race which has a third eye.

[Khadan]

 

Rampant well-known xenophobia combined with a preference for the repressive, and a homogenous racial composition of the upper echelon of their society makes this less a logical leap, and more of a slight logical shuffling forward of the feet.

This actually sounds a bit more like Nationalism as opposed to racism. Though racism tends to be a component in aggressive nationalist states.

 

*Quickly dives for cover and hides Political Science hat*

What we know about Ishgard and the world itself lends itself naturally to the conclusion that Ishgard is highly and systematically rascist.  It is not proven, perhaps l, but is an easy inference.  I think that it tries to cultivate religio-nationalistic sentiment in its cannon-fodd... I mean in its citizenry is beyond obvious

 

Your assumption is categorically false. What we know about Ishgard says nothing of the sort. Again, the data isn't there. Provide data to prove your assertions/claims, otherwise we're just arguing what we want to see, not what is.

[Kage]

I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

 

That's the main one.

[V'aleera]

But Aya, this entire premise rests on the idea that religious zealotry is inherently racist. But the thing of it is, Ishgard really gives 0 shits what size or color you are, or whether or not you have a tail. What we currently know of Ishgard is this: They see the world as two categories of people: Believers and Unbelievers. Anything else is a minor detail.

I don't think it's realistic to presume that Ishgard is not racist at all. Everyone's racist. No matter who you are, no matter where you are. I think it would be more feasible to argue that race as a factor is simply not AS prominent in Ishgardian society as it is in places like Gridania.

[Khadan]

Nobles in Ishgard are likely most or all Elezen. The four High Nobles Houses are made up of 3 Wildwood families and 1 Dudkwight. Per lore, the 4 High Noble Houses came to be because they were the friends of Haldrath, the first Azure Dragoon, and the man who defeated Nidhogg.

 

Other, lesser Noble Houses exist, but all of the few we've seen so far have been Elezen. Why no Hyur? Because Hyur did not integrate into Ishgardian society until roughly 450-500 years ago.

 

Remember Hyur came to Eorzea in three great migratory waves starting 1000 years ago. These first settlers were the Highlanders, who brought war to the Elezen. They conquered Gyr Abania from the Elezen and tried to conquer Belah'dia to the south. The first wave of Midlanders started showing up between 500-800 years ago. Now, while the Hyur and Elezen waged war across the rest of Eorzea, the Elezen of Gelmorra made peace with the Hyur who also wished to live in the Twelveswood.  This act would later make the founding of Gridania possible. But this was the first time Hyur and Elezen had come to peace in Eorzea.

 

So the peace between Ishgardian Elezen and Hyur would have come later. Its possible these new Hyuran Ishgardians could have become nobility, as the lower houses and military seem to follow a meritorious system. ALord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean. So about anything seems possible in Ishgard.

 

These seem like reasonable conclusions based on information we actually DO have.

[Sounsyy]

Lord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn

This I didn't know. Do you recall where this is referenced?

 

MSQ, end of 2.5 story. I'm at work so can't look up exact quest cutscene, but Aymeric tells Alphinaud straight up that he's lowborn and worked his way into his position.

[Khadan]

I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

 

That's the main one.

 

That... what?

 

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

 

And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.

[Aya]

I definitely agree that Ishgard does provide an in for those who do not meet the usual requirements to earn a position in the stratified hierarchy, in the military in particular, and likely through earning favor within an existing Elezen House.

 

In a sense their  religious nature, and the common cause of the war against the Dravanians, will serve as a crucible in which racist tendencies are tested and broken down.  But it does not take much to infer that in a society where power is held firmly in the hands of a racial and class elite, that they view the rest of their people through a racist lens.  How far does this racist lens percolate down?  That's hard to say - does the common Elezen street vendor find more in common with his Elezen House Lords or with the Hyur down the street?  There's really no way to conjecture.

 

What I think is more obvious is that non-Elezen have a harder time earning their place in this society, and are met with an eye of greater judgement from Elezen officialdom.  I am not suggesting that this is strictly the case, only that it is a natural and logical inference from the things that we do know about Ishgard.  I think drawing the opposite conclusion would fly in the face of what we know.