Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Dravus]

More players need to realise that if they want to invest in an alt in a game such as this then they need to actually invest. If somebody feels like it's too much of a chore to go through the MSQ's for a second time on a different character then that, to me, is a sign that they should reconsider bothering with an alt to begin with.

[BroodingFicus]

More players need to realise that if they want to invest in an alt in a game such as this then they need to actually invest. If somebody feels like it's too much of a chore to go through the MSQ's for a second time on a different character then that, to me, is a sign that they should reconsider bothering with an alt to begin with.

 

I don't mind going through the story. Ok. I mind. I hate it but I have done it four times now for the alts I wanted and would do it a 5th in a heart beat if I could be an Au Ra Astrologian. Its at least good experience pts/gil in some cases and by the time I reach 50 I feel like I know what I'm doing as that job. Going through the story as a place holder class just so I can then be forced to level 30-50 again as the class I wanted from the beginning is where I take issue. I'll put in the effort and as RPers I think most people here would too. However this set up is the equivalent of tying a cement block to a duck and saying the duck drowned because it was too lazy to put in the effort. (no ducks were harmed in the making of this comment)

[111]

As much as everyone likes to complain about this, FFXIVs lengthy main quest, and the issues with alts.

 

Remember FFXIV is basically the /only/ healthy subscription MMO in western countries at the moment besides WoW. Perhaps they they have accomplished that that, but not following all the decisions and policies that other failed subscriptions MMOs have done. Lots of people play FFXIV, and it is a game that people often say can't exist. I hear often from media outlets that subscription MMOs are dead.

 

Could they do better? Assuredly. However comparing it to other MMOs besides WoW (and WoW basically just coasts along on inertia, so few lessons are to be learned there anymore) is sort of a strange exercise because all those MMOs have failed in their original goal to be subscription. I think the choices that you may not like, come of the fact it's a lone wolf in a F2P market, and that means its a different animal.

 

Cases like GW2 are a different story, as they were built from the ground up for a different finance model.

[Kellach Woods]

Well, y'all are claiming that ol' Yoshi is going to sit back and cackle madly as he forces all new players to stop 10 levels before the cap and grind for weeks, which would definitely alienate a lot of people needlessly. But that's not how MMOs work, and no major developer would ever do that. The guy has decades of experience in the dev game, he knows what he's doing.

 

We've mentioned nothing of cackling. Just that this is something that has literally not come up in any of the materials presented for Heavensward and that until they actually say "this is our plan for new characters once they reach 50" all of it is speculation. The fact is, they're not speaking an iota about it and that is more worrying than them actually going out and stating that.

 

(also, having experience in development does not make you immune to making mistakes or making bad assessments of what people want)

 

Could they do better? Assuredly. However comparing it to other MMOs besides WoW (and WoW basically just coasts along on inertia, so few lessons are to be learned there anymore) is sort of a strange exercise because all those MMOs have failed in their original goal to be subscription. I think the choices that you may not like, come of the fact it's a lone wolf in a F2P market, and that means its a different animal.

 

There is one lesson most people are forgetting - they've released numerous expansions in the past with relatively great success, and even the most "unfriendly" expansion released, Burning Crusade, you could move onto the expansion content 2 levels before max level, no extra content to be done other than reaching 58, and speaking to a NPC that was right next to the Dark Portal. Hardly a large time commitment.

 

Considering how much of western MMOs they put into the game, I'm surprised they didn't get that memo.

 

More players need to realise that if they want to invest in an alt in a game such as this then they need to actually invest. If somebody feels like it's too much of a chore to go through the MSQ's for a second time on a different character then that, to me, is a sign that they should reconsider bothering with an alt to begin with.

 

A player that is just on an alt likely has ways to mitigate the issue anyway. Skipping cutscenes, a pre-established network of people to help them level, knowledge of the classes and how they interact with one another, ways to make XP faster, etc.

 

I'm arguing as a player who first subscribes to the game post-Heavensward.

[Naunet]

The developers have already confirmed that the quest givers for the new jobs are in Ishgard. It was mentioned in a live letter or interview somewhere. I don't see them having enough time to relocate and adjust those questlines in the month remaining to them before HW drops.

 

Does that suck for alts? Is it unfriendly as hell for roleplayers? Yes and yes. But wishing it were otherwise isn't going to make it so.

 

Do you think Yoshi is uninterested in pulling in new players? Because advertising astrologian, machinist, and dark knight in the expac and then giving a big "F you" to new players who were lured in by those jobs is NOT good game design.

 

As for the likelihood of SE making some big mistakes regarding the ilvl restrictions funneling players through outdated content... They've made some pretty poor design decisions in the past. It's certainly believable that they would do so again.

[Melkire]

I'm not going to lie. I never played WoW. A lot of the arguments against Square-Enix's decision on this matter seem to boil down to, "WoW doesn't do it this way."

 

...so?

 

Maybe it's that I come from a history of single player computer games back in the 90s, instead of a history of MMORPGs, but when I hear "expansion pack," I think, "alright I've done everything there is to do in the game I bought, and now I want more." Expansions were, by and large, something for those who'd already consumed the product to a significant degree. They allowed developers and producers to deliver more of the same content without all the time, energy, and investment that normally goes into the development and production of a full-scale sequel.

 

By that admittedly old-school logic, I don't see any issues with expansion content requiring progressiom through the pre-existing narrative, barring the sole exception of the new jobs. If those are also gated for good reasons - narrative, or technical limitations - then I can understand and accept the situation as-is.

[Aya]

Final Fantasy is a game entirely apart form Warcraft, and is fully entitled to make its own mistakes.  That doesn't mean they aren't mistakes - and from my perspective this is clearly one, given the effect it has upon discouraging bringing in new players.  Generally speaking, people rarely buy a new game to take part in two year old content or spend six months of grinding before being able to enjoy the current game with their friends. 

 

I have no doubt FF's expansion will still be successful.  I also have no doubt that this sort of design will turn away some potential new players.   It negatively impacts my own judgement and enjoyment of the game (since I won't even bother making the Ishgard-based alts I was considering), and has had a negative impact on any anticipation I may have had toward Heavensward.

 

None of this has a fig to do with Warcraft, or any of FF's other MMO competitors.

[111]

As Osric said.

 

Also I 100% /don't/ want a bunch of new players in Ishgard, doing the new dungeons with me right off the gate. The new stuff will be at least as hard as the expert dungeons in 2.55, and people should go through the story and learn how to play.

 

People can go through the main story or they can just find a game with with an easier barrier to entry. FFXIV is a sub game, not F2P, and is more about pleasing a select group of people rather than the masses.

 

^Why would they want new players Aya, their must successful game to date FXI hovered around this number of subscribers for about a decade, and they were very pleased with it. Square Enix may just be totally happy with the current player base.

[Aya]

^Why would they want new players Aya, their must successful game to date FXI hovered around this number of subscribers for about a decade, and they were very pleased with it. Square Enix may just be totally happy with the current player base.

Really?  Well, don't worry, you'll get your wish!

[cuideag]

I'm honestly a little surprised that people are surprised that expansion content would be gated behind a) an expansion, b) content. Even the most casual of casuals can slog their way through it. It's just time you wanna put in to see the game that you pay for.

 

Were folks this upset when they had to level, say, Lancer to 30 plus some other thing to 15 to unlock Dragoon? That didn't stop new players from jumping onto the XIV bandwagon, and I don't see how it would stop folks jumping into Heavensward. (It won't.)

 

It's an inconvenience to be sure, especially if you have a thing for alts (and I DO ) but I don't think it's as awful as folks make it out to be.

 

... A lot of the arguments against Square-Enix's decision on this matter seem to boil down to, "WoW doesn't do it this way."

 

...so?

[Kage]

I don't really have a problem with the gate. I feel bad for those specific players who saw NEW JOBS I WANT FINALLY!!11 and didn't play the game before and now do, but it's a specific subset.

 

I'm honestly more upset with the people who want to play Dark Knights and as such are grinding their PLD/WAR out right now and are abysmal at tanking.

[111]

^Why would they want new players Aya, their must successful game to date FXI hovered around this number of subscribers for about a decade, and they were very pleased with it. Square Enix may just be totally happy with the current player base.

Really?  Well, don't worry, you'll get your wish!

 

I just looked it up and FXI at its best was around 300,000 and FFXIV is at least double that. Plus there are micro transactions to add to their profits.

 

If people aren't interested in playing the whole 2.0... then too bad so sad imo. I know you're giving that response with some vitriol. However how would an influx of new players who have no interest in going through the paces and learning the gameplay be a positive thing?

 

If FFXIV stays at this level of subscribers for the next decade, I'm perfectly happy, and I'm open to arguments about why that would be a bad thing. Because I can't see the downside.

[Aya]

I just looked it up and FXI at its best was around 300,000 and FFXIV is at least double that. Plus there are micro transactions to add to their profits.

 

If people aren't interested in playing the whole 2.0... then too bad so sad imo. I know you're giving that response with some vitriol. However how would an influx of new players who have no interest in going through the paces and learning the gameplay be a positive thing?

 

If FFXIV stays at this level of subscribers for the next decade, I'm perfectly happy, and I'm open to arguments about why that would be a bad thing. Because I can't see the downside.

Its not vitriol, its astonishment (and disappointment).

 

#1: Because you're going to lose players due to attrition.

#2: Because the more players the healthier the MMO.

#3: Because I like making new friends, and because if the game were actually welcoming to new players I'd like to invite my other friends to play it. 

 

I'm glad that you're perfectly happy - and I guess I'm glad that there's a game out there to cater to your particular needs (it is a big gaming world afterall!).  Maybe it does work out the best for them-they obviously want to make their MMO about story and that appeals to some players.  It does not appeal to me, and the doubling down on this approach at such an expense to accessibility I just find disheartening.

 

I am honestly a little surprised that anyone would prefer the game actively discourage the joining of new players, or new players from participating in current content.

[Gone.]

Were folks this upset when they had to level, say, Lancer to 30 plus some other thing to 15 to unlock Dragoon? That didn't stop new players from jumping onto the XIV bandwagon, and I don't see how it would stop folks jumping into Heavensward. (It won't.)

 

Difference being those secondary classes can be done at any time past level 10 which is entirely reasonable. Having to sludge through weeks of MSQ tedium isn't. Not a fair comparison whatsoever.

[Gegenji]

I don't really have a problem with the gate. I feel bad for those specific players who saw NEW JOBS I WANT FINALLY!!11 and didn't play the game before and now do, but it's a specific subset.

 

I'm honestly more upset with the people who want to play Dark Knights and as such are grinding their PLD/WAR out right now and are abysmal at tanking.

 

If they're abysmal at tanking with PLD/WAR, though, could you be expect them to be any better with DRK? While the specific skills may be different, I would figure running through PLD/WAR would at least help to instill basic tank mechanics - use enmity combo on single target, use AoE on groups, use defensive cooldowns liberally when needed, and so on - that are still going to be needed as a DRK. If they're still abysmal after getting their existing tank class of choice to 50, I can't really expect them to suddenly be good with the new one.

[111]

I just looked it up and FXI at its best was around 300,000 and FFXIV is at least double that. Plus there are micro transactions to add to their profits.

 

If people aren't interested in playing the whole 2.0... then too bad so sad imo. I know you're giving that response with some vitriol. However how would an influx of new players who have no interest in going through the paces and learning the gameplay be a positive thing?

 

If FFXIV stays at this level of subscribers for the next decade, I'm perfectly happy, and I'm open to arguments about why that would be a bad thing. Because I can't see the downside.

Its not vitriol, its astonishment (and disappointment).

 

#1: Because you're going to lose players due to attrition.

#2: Because the more players the healthier the MMO.

#3: Because I like making new friends, and because if the game were actually welcoming to new players I'd like to invite my other friends to play it. 

 

I'm glad that you're perfectly happy - and I guess I'm glad that there's a game out there to cater to your particular needs (it is a big gaming world afterall!).  Maybe it does work out the best for them-they obviously want to make their MMO about story and that appeals to some players.  It does not appeal to me, and the doubling down on this approach at such an expense to accessibility I just find disheartening.

 

I am honestly a little surprised that anyone would prefer the game actively discourage the joining of new players, or new players from participating in current content.

 

I have nothing against new players. However given the choice between no new players and new entitled/unskilled players, I would rather have no new players.

 

New people can play the game like it was designed or they can leave. You might disagree, but Squares mmo team does not. Which is why they are sticking fast to this.

[Melkire]

Were folks this upset when they had to level, say, Lancer to 30 plus some other thing to 15 to unlock Dragoon? That didn't stop new players from jumping onto the XIV bandwagon, and I don't see how it would stop folks jumping into Heavensward. (It won't.)

 

Difference being those secondary classes can be done at any time past level 10 which is entirely reasonable. Having to sludge through weeks of MSQ tedium isn't. Not a fair comparison whatsoever.

 

A better comparison, though flawed in myriad ways, would be not being able to glamour your gear until you hit level 50.

[Kage]

I don't really have a problem with the gate. I feel bad for those specific players who saw NEW JOBS I WANT FINALLY!!11 and didn't play the game before and now do, but it's a specific subset.

 

I'm honestly more upset with the people who want to play Dark Knights and as such are grinding their PLD/WAR out right now and are abysmal at tanking.

 

If they're abysmal at tanking with PLD/WAR, though, could you be expect them to be any better with DRK? While the specific skills may be different, I would figure running through PLD/WAR would at least help to instill basic tank mechanics - use enmity combo on single target, use AoE on groups, use defensive cooldowns liberally when needed, and so on - that are still going to be needed as a DRK. If they're still abysmal after getting their existing tank class of choice to 50, I can't really expect them to suddenly be good with the new one.

That's the travesty of it all

 

They just want to hurry up and gear and I'm going to be dealing with it in Heavensgard going "Can we just have a dungeon party? The lands are tough and these DRKs are atrocious"

[Telluride]

 

By that admittedly old-school logic, I don't see any issues with expansion content requiring progressiom through the pre-existing narrative, barring the sole exception of the new jobs. If those are also gated for good reasons - narrative, or technical limitations - then I can understand and accept the situation as-is.

 

A lot of our discussion is hinging on a question that, as far as I know, remains unanswered:

 

Will brand new characters be able to select the new jobs and get to ANY of the new content?

 

As has already been discussed, if someone is lured to the game for the first time by the offers of flying on dragons and firing shotguns at everything, and they find they can't DO these things without grinding through everything else, then we'll have an unsatisfied new customer. If SE doesn't really care about that, and is only aiming the expansion at established players, then it's their decision, but from a financial standpoint, isn't the smartest one they could pick.. IF their goal is to make money off the expansion.

 

Returning players will have a bit of grind to do, too. For someone who got through most of the story, got to, say, ilvl 100 or so, and is lured back by Shiny New Stuff, they may or may not be put off by all the catch up they're gonna do, and we've had plenty of arguing about Steps of Faith already.

 

I agree with Aya that we can't really invoke WoW as a comparison; otherwise, we gotta invoke every other game out there. OPINION WARNING: WoW's position in gaming was brought on by good timing, heavy earlier investment and a powerful lack of effective competition at the time of its meteoric rise, and it's surviving on accessibility and the numbers game. But at the risk of violating my own warning, I could compare things to Age of Conan, also, which started offering existing players the choice of starting a new character at level 50(out of 80, at the time), giving idle characters free experience (therefore removing some alt grind), and now I think that game will even let a new character be made at level 80. Now, AoC isn't exactly a powerhouse in the game market, so the comparison may not be all that apt.

 

I'd also like to see FFXIV lighten up on a game policy that contributes to the difficulty of making alts: the heavy restrictions that prevent a player from sending gear to alts. Compared to other MMO's, ours seems to HATE HATE HATE HATE the idea that the thousand hours you might spend getting gear could result in sending a nice piece or two of what you collected to an alt; hell, we can't even send GIL to our own alts without the intercession of another player. Sellable gear for the 50+ set is ridiculously expensive to make, and thus rather expensive to buy, therefore forcing alts into the dungeon grind. It seems an odd decision in a game that so endorses crafting as to let any character potentially make anything... but then, this could descend into a downward spiral about the game's economy that probably won't go anywhere until we know how the expansion is going to affect the market. Are we going to get flooded with great new gear for lvls 50-60, gear that is easy to get? Or is it gonna be stingy? The answer will have major repercussions not just on leveling, but on making gil, and the craft system.

 

Now, one could argue that discussing alts could be irrelevant, since FFXIV is a game that seems inherently unkind to alts (why we have eight character slots is a weird mystery to me, considering this design decision...), but the Expansion is introducing a new RACE for the first time since 2.0, and three classes that we're told don't behave like any previous ones and start at level 30, and which we're told may be gatelocked so as to be inaccessible to new players. The result is that what we're going to see will be a very solid confirmation from SE about whether they really CARE about the new player money, or if this expansion is truly aimed 100% at persistent, patient existing players who have appeased the Designer Gods by tromping through the (not always well-written, I'm sorry but it is true) MSQ.

 

What scares me about it is how really hush-hush SE has been about a LOT of these questions. We're less than a month from release, and we don't have (as of today, May 26) answers for a lot of very, very relevant questions that directly impact... dun dun DUUNNNNNN... people's willingness to preorder this thing. After seeing so many friends get burned by other games' offers of "Pay Us Now, Find Out About Game Later" (I'm looking at you, Everquest Next, and every "Founder's Package' ever offered for games that tanked), my Suspicion Sense is tingling.

 

I'm reading back up at all this... and seeing how I've been wandering about from topic to topic. Eh, gonna leave it as is, because it seems weird that we don'y yet have answers to some very, very critical questions in the home stretch of this expansion, and at the same time that we're being told to preorder and Please Look Forward To It.

[Aya]

I have nothing against new players. However given the choice between no new players and new entitled/unskilled players, I would rather have no new players.

I wish you the best of luck with that one.

[Gone.]

I have nothing against new players. However given the choice between no new players and new entitled/unskilled players, I would rather have no new players.

 

New people can play the game like it was designed or they can leave. You might disagree, but Squares mmo team does not. Which is why they are sticking fast to this.

 

The majority of the FFXIV player base is already unskilled and entitled; I've been here for six months and can outplay people that have been here long enough to grind out full i130.

 

New people are not the problem. Stagnation, however, is another story.

[111]

I have nothing against new players. However given the choice between no new players and new entitled/unskilled players, I would rather have no new players.

 

New people can play the game like it was designed or they can leave. You might disagree, but Squares mmo team does not. Which is why they are sticking fast to this.

 

The majority of the FFXIV player base is already unskilled and entitled; I've been here for six months and can outplay people that have been here long enough to grind out full i130.

 

New people are not the problem. Stagnation, however, is another story.

 

If you think the community on FFXIV is bad... you must not have played many other large MMOs. I think the FFXIV community is pretty stellar. I think much of that comes from the handholding and learning that the main quest does for people.

[Naunet]

I'm honestly a little surprised that people are surprised that expansion content would be gated behind a) an expansion, b) content. Even the most casual of casuals can slog their way through it. It's just time you wanna put in to see the game that you pay for.

 

Were folks this upset when they had to level, say, Lancer to 30 plus some other thing to 15 to unlock Dragoon? That didn't stop new players from jumping onto the XIV bandwagon, and I don't see how it would stop folks jumping into Heavensward. (It won't.)

 

The differences between lancer and dragoon are... almost zero in terms of play. You use the same weapon, use most of the same abilities, and the same armor, etc. But if a new player comes in wanting to play a machinist or astrologian or dark knight, they're going to have a very bad experience.

 

I'm flummoxed as to how people are not surprised by the extreme gating for Heavensward. In every other MMO, an expac essentially means a new game. New players aren't shunted into grinding outdated content before they can play with the rest of the folk who have been enjoying the game previously. And no, I'm not just saying that SE should do it one way because that's how everyone else is doing it. Expacs in MMOs are presented that way because it works well. No one enjoys being walled off from friends and other players just because you joined after launch. This reeks of bad decisions on SE's part.

[Telluride]

I have nothing against new players. However given the choice between no new players and new entitled/unskilled players, I would rather have no new players.

 

New people can play the game like it was designed or they can leave. You might disagree, but Squares mmo team does not. Which is why they are sticking fast to this.

 

The majority of the FFXIV player base is already unskilled and entitled; I've been here for six months and can outplay people that have been here long enough to grind out full i130.

 

New people are not the problem. Stagnation, however, is another story.

 

And if you need a reason to care about new players, here's one.

 

If this expansion proves unfriendly to new players, word will get out that the game AS A WHOLE is not new player friendly.

 

That won't matter now. It won't matter in a month, maybe two, maybe three or four.

 

But what happens when the Next Shiny New Thing starts pulling people away in droves, like SWTOR did to a lot of games, and GW2 did to SWTOR, for example?

 

If the existing player base gets pulled away from a game that brands itself as "Get Lost Newbie, durhurrhurr", what happens?

 

Not every server is as big as Balmung, nor has as established a community, nor could take the hit.

 

No new players = "Hey, FFXIV Is Now Free To Play!" = Existing Community saying "WTF, OMFG time for a new game" = "The Exact Kind Of Thing That Kills An MMO That Isn't WoW"

 

If SE doesn't care, hey, their call. I'm still playing and buying the expansion. But FFXIV will have to weather a hit, eventually, hell, even from THEMSELVES. FFXV is coming. The new player money will still go to SE, but if the MMO itself suffers, how long until it becomes a White Elephant and SE pumps dev time and investment into something else?

[ProvaDiServo]

 

Really if square could hook my alts up with a pass to ishgard solely for the jobs (because that's all that should be available frankly) then I'd be cool.

 

The game recognizes that my main has been a sub for a certain length of time, why can't the game recognize my clear of content and hook me up with a hall pass? Quite honestly, I'll do all the content over again if I can just have the job I want.

 

New players that have yet to clear with a main have to struggle, and that struggle will suck. But it's something that's gotta be done.

 

There are people that still can't properly dodge titan mechanics in full ironworks. gear.

 

FULL IRONWORKS

 

 

You gotta crawl before you can hop on a gryphon and fight in content with me on a class and a game you only halfway understand.

 

 

I mean for what it is right now I kinda wish they would put ironworks gear in the hunt seals. cause running AKHM all day gets irksome. Just save sometime or something.