Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs

[Melkire]

That pretty much applies for every tank now.

Or, even better, wait until we get crafted accessories and make accessories with both VIT and STR.

 

I haven't hopped into HW yet but I've been hearing folks in linkshells advocating VIT or maybe even PIE for DRK. The former given that consensus seems to be that it's a squishier tank than PLD or WAR, the latter given its constant need for MP.

[Gegenji]

That pretty much applies for every tank now.

Or, even better, wait until we get crafted accessories and make accessories with both VIT and STR.

 

I haven't hopped into HW yet but I've been hearing folks in linkshells advocating VIT or maybe even PIE for DRK. The former given that consensus seems to be that it's a squishier tank than PLD or WAR, the latter given its constant need for MP.

 

Yeah, I've been hearing the PIE thing too... I'm just sticking to STR on Judge because that's always been my tanking go-to stat with WAR and PLD, and so he has all gear that lines up with that from his preparation.

 

Once I actually get him to a decent level and have his abilities, I can likely give a decent report on their squishiness and MP consumption. However, as of yet (at 34), I've only been running low on MP if I'm doing the DRK-equivalent of "Flash spamming."

[111]

56: Raw Intuition - At first glance this skill seems meh, but this is actually one of WAR's most OP new abilities. Possibly not working as intended??? So, for 20s all incoming attacks from the front get parried with the caveat that all incoming attacks from flank and rear have 100% chance to crit. BUT! Awareness will nullify enemy's crit chance to 0% for 15s so pop the two buffs together. ADDITIONALLY! The 100% crit chance from flank or rear also applies to incoming cures. WUT. Lemme repeat, while this buff is up, healers will crit heal WARs 100% of the time so long as the WAR isn't facing the healer.

 

 

This isn't as amazing as it sounds. What fights typically have the healer looking at the main tank's back? I actually can't think of any in coil. You can't even if you wanted to usually, because the DPS needs to hit the back of the boss. Parry's are good, but realistically it just means warriors get a physical only version of Rampart, with some slight downsides, as they'll get critted if they need to turn and dodge an AOE or reposition a boss.

 

That self heal looks pretty good. I Think the stealth advantage of the new heals WAR/PLD get is that they can cast them when adds spawn, and have adds drop on them instead.

[mongi291]

That pretty much applies for every tank now.

Or, even better, wait until we get crafted accessories and make accessories with both VIT and STR.

 

I haven't hopped into HW yet but I've been hearing folks in linkshells advocating VIT or maybe even PIE for DRK. The former given that consensus seems to be that it's a squishier tank than PLD or WAR, the latter given its constant need for MP.

 

Yeah, I've been hearing the PIE thing too... I'm just sticking to STR on Judge because that's always been my tanking go-to stat with WAR and PLD, and so he has all gear that lines up with that from his preparation.

 

Once I actually get him to a decent level and have his abilities, I can likely give a decent report on their squishiness and MP consumption. However, as of yet (at 34), I've only been running low on MP if I'm doing the DRK-equivalent of "Flash spamming."

I can understand VIT, but PIE? If you're tanking you have Blood Price; if you're not you have Blood Weapon. And either way Souleater is really good with Dark Arts so you will have to use Syphon Strike. Oh, and from what I've seen DRK has more base PIE than every other non-mage job (PLD and BRD have something like 1400 MP at level 50. DRK on the other hand has 1900 MP at level 50).

 

EDIT: And yes, I know they said "PIE will be a possible option for DRK". I remember that. But it turns out they either lied, or were exaggerating.

[Sounsyy]

56: Raw Intuition - At first glance this skill seems meh, but this is actually one of WAR's most OP new abilities. Possibly not working as intended??? So, for 20s all incoming attacks from the front get parried with the caveat that all incoming attacks from flank and rear have 100% chance to crit. BUT! Awareness will nullify enemy's crit chance to 0% for 15s so pop the two buffs together. ADDITIONALLY! The 100% crit chance from flank or rear also applies to incoming cures. WUT. Lemme repeat, while this buff is up, healers will crit heal WARs 100% of the time so long as the WAR isn't facing the healer.

 

 

This isn't as amazing as it sounds. What fights typically have the healer looking at the main tank's back? I actually can't think of any in coil. You can't even if you wanted to usually, because the DPS needs to hit the back of the boss. Parry's are good, but realistically it just means warriors get a physical only version of Rampart, with some slight downsides, as they'll get critted if they need to turn and dodge an AOE or reposition a boss.

 

That self heal looks pretty good. I Think the stealth advantage of the new heals WAR/PLD get is that they can cast them when adds spawn, and have adds drop on them instead.

 

Difficult during bosses, sure, but easily maneuverable for trash pulls. I've made a macro just to tell healers the skill is up. But most of the new bosses, and even a lot in the old are tanked in the center of the arena. Very easy to get behind. Another option is just for the WAR to turn their ass towards the healer. Pretty easy for WAR to just turn around. Awareness buff fully nullifies the enemy's crit rate, so no harm done.

[Spethah]

I did some number crunching today by comparing a level 50 WHM to a level 50 AST (not SCH because I suck at SCH). Turns out that AST does better in long fights due to it's efficiency and it's use of buffs. WHM is still better at burst healing however, so they tend to do much better in short fights.

 

Would I see an AST in a static raid party due to their strong healing capabilities in long fights? YES. Very much so, they can easily replace WHM in long fights. 

 

Would I see an AST in a static raid party as a secondary healer with a WHM as primary? Sure, their shields are good but not as good as SCH from what I've seen. Their buffs do make them very useful however. Personally having them as a secondary healer would depend on the static and what they have player skill wise.

[Gegenji]

I did some number crunching today by comparing a level 50 WHM to a level 50 AST (not SCH because I suck at SCH). Turns out that AST does better in long fights due to it's efficiency and it's use of buffs. WHM is still better at burst healing however, so they tend to do much better in short fights.

 

...

 

Sure, their shields are good but not as good as SCH from what I've seen. Their buffs do make them very useful however. Personally having them as a secondary healer would depend on the static and what they have player skill wise.

 

The biggest perk I've heard going for them is their pure utility. I've often heard that the best raid healer combo is one WHM and one SCH - so someone who can basically be either in any given situation is quite handy, even if they don't have the pure power of one or the other. Some smart card play (and a bit of luck of the draw, teehee) could also bring even more utility. A defensive boost for big groups or when a big hit is coming, increased damage or skill speed on your highest DPS.

 

I really want to give it a shot on Gogon once he hits 60 SCH. It'll take some getting used to with the whole litany of new icons and skill layout... but I'm quite intrigued to see what it can do.

[Aaron]

That pretty much applies for every tank now.

Or, even better, wait until we get crafted accessories and make accessories with both VIT and STR.

 

I haven't hopped into HW yet but I've been hearing folks in linkshells advocating VIT or maybe even PIE for DRK. The former given that consensus seems to be that it's a squishier tank than PLD or WAR, the latter given its constant need for MP.

DRK aren't squishy. They are kinda like glass cannons though.

 

They will absolutely demolish and aggro every and anything in bursts, but once those defense cool downs run out its basically they get healed quick or they die.

 

I DRK dpsed Snowcloak at 53 with just a WHM and a PLD (Both 50)

 

I dpsed everything and held aggro way to good if the fights were under two minutes (even solo killed several adds) but after the burst the recovery period was do or die.

[BroodingFicus]

I don't have Heavensward yet, but I was concerned about what they did to NIN?  I heard they were going to add a bunch of positional requirements on their moves.  Is this true?  If so, if we really have to juggle positional stuff along with mudras and our combos on top of it, why not just be a monk?  I'm just wondering how bad it is.

 

Aeolian edge is the only one of our old moves I saw that had a positional. It now does more damage from behind which isn't too bad. I am only 52 so far so I haven't unlocked the Armor Crush move that has a flanking positional effect (60 more damage from the flank I think) but that seems to be the worst of it not counting trick attack (which we already had). So three total if I'm not mistaken? Missing the positional isn't hugely punishing either aside from some dps loss. It doesn't interrupt your combo's or anything else and I'm looking forward to Huton lasting 70 secs. It'll free us up to use the mudras more often. So all and all don't fear. I'm leveling with a dragoon of equal item level and he still has to fight me for dps so I'd say we are still fine.

 

Also if I missed something, someone let me know .

[Leggerless]

Only one other person in this thread even mentioned Machinist. I knew we were unpopular, but damn, that much? :?

 

Yep. Haven't got into HW just yet, but many sources are ambivalent.

 

A Machinist is like a ninja; they are good if played well and terrible if played incorrectly. At this stage, there are more of the latter present. Over time, the amount of people who know how to work with Machinist will increase and the class will seem... well, not as shitty. Like ninjas

 

Edit: Also, if anyone knows the base skill speed of a level 60 ninja right now, I would love to know it.

[Melkire]

Regarding NIN:

 

Armor Crush combos off of Gust Slash for a total of 220 potency without the positional or for 280 with. But that's not what's important. What's important is that the combo bonus extends Huton by 30s to a max of 70s. That more or less makes Armor Crush mandatory for optimal DPS rotation, since it frees up mudra for use in casting Raiton/Doton/Suiton ninjutsu. And since you'll be using AC anyway, you'll want to snag the flanking positional bonus for the extra potency.

 

The positionals for NIN still aren't as demanding as the ones on MNK are, since the latter's weaponskills don't branch into different combos so much as they weave in and out of each other, and each "step" has a number of positionals that require different positions for optimal DPS output.

 

Counting Trick Attack, Armor Crush, and Aeolian Edge, that's three positionals to a Monk's six. On top of that, Trick Attack has a 60s cooldown. In comparison, each and every one of MNK's positionals is a standard 2.5s GCD. So it's really more like two-and-change positionals to six. And even then, most of the combo components for NIN don't have positional requirements.

[Zyrusticae]

Yep. Haven't got into HW just yet, but many sources are ambivalent.

 

A Machinist is like a ninja; they are good if played well and terrible if played incorrectly. At this stage, there are more of the latter present. Over time, the amount of people who know how to work with Machinist will increase and the class will seem... well, not as shitty. Like ninjas

 

Edit: Also, if anyone knows the base skill speed of a level 60 ninja right now, I would love to know it.

NIN was actually OP right off the bat. MCH is the complete opposite situation: they're always terrible, even when played completely 100% optimally.

 

High MCH DPS runs in the 600-650 range at level 59 and i142. Meanwhile, this BLM is doing 977 DPS at 60 and i159. As you probably well know, those 17 ilvls (and one job level) are NOT going to explain the raw difference in DPS. The job is simply borked.

 

I think the most obvious problem is that even at our peak burst we're only doing sub-par damage, and then during the rest of the time we're slaves to the RNG as we pray for procs to use our slightly-more-damaging skills... and our skills have really, REALLY bad potencies to begin with. BRD also has low potencies but compensates with lots of crits and the bloodletter proc which completely changes how much damage they output at 50 (though that damage is still obviously sub-par next to melee DPS and caster jobs). Their Wanderer's Minuet skills are also straight-up superior to MCH's Gauss Barrel skills, something I find quite laughable as it's an extremely straightforward comparison and there is no excuse for this discrepancy.

 

This is not okay:

 

Black Mage

 

Machinist

[Trigonxv]

My fellow dragoons blood of the Dragon is so good that is all

[111]

Yep. Haven't got into HW just yet, but many sources are ambivalent.

 

A Machinist is like a ninja; they are good if played well and terrible if played incorrectly. At this stage, there are more of the latter present. Over time, the amount of people who know how to work with Machinist will increase and the class will seem... well, not as shitty. Like ninjas

 

Edit: Also, if anyone knows the base skill speed of a level 60 ninja right now, I would love to know it.

NIN was actually OP right off the bat. MCH is the complete opposite situation: they're always terrible, even when played completely 100% optimally.

 

High MCH DPS runs in the 600-650 range at level 59 and i142. Meanwhile, this BLM is doing 977 DPS at 60 and i159. As you probably well know, those 17 ilvls (and one job level) are NOT going to explain the raw difference in DPS. The job is simply borked.

 

I think the most obvious problem is that even at our peak burst we're only doing sub-par damage, and then during the rest of the time we're slaves to the RNG as we pray for procs to use our slightly-more-damaging skills... and our skills have really, REALLY bad potencies to begin with. BRD also has low potencies but compensates with lots of crits and the bloodletter proc which completely changes how much damage they output at 50 (though that damage is still obviously sub-par next to melee DPS and caster jobs). Their Wanderer's Minuet skills are also straight-up superior to MCH's Gauss Barrel skills, something I find quite laughable as it's an extremely straightforward comparison and there is no excuse for this discrepancy.

 

This is not okay:

 

Black Mage

 

Machinist

 

You have no idea what MCH 'played optimally' looks like, and neither does anyone else at this point. So maybe just calm down and a wait a few weeks and see what the numbers end up being.

[Verad]

As a NIN, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing with two separate aggro-dump skills. Somebody give me ideas that don't involve taking the tank's aggro to troll an annoying healer.

[Steel Wolf]

I dun care about the meta. I love my Spoopy Palidin.

 

And if some parsing shitface's numbers make everyone force me out of content then that's cool. I can OT all damn week if I wanna, or RP, or just spend my money on a game where I'm not gated by iLvl AND the playerbase.

 

LOVE MAH DRK.

[Zyrusticae]

You have no idea what MCH 'played optimally' looks like, and neither does anyone else at this point. So maybe just calm down and a wait a few weeks and see what the numbers end up being.

 

Really?

 

It's not complicated or even particularly difficult. Even NIN's "optimized" rotation only grants it roughly 30 DPS over the rotations people were doing at the start (assuming the player is competent and not completely neglecting obvious class features like you see in so many Crystal Tower parties *sigh*). This isn't going to MAGICALLY CHANGE just because someone figured out a slightly more optimal way to use the tools they've been given.

 

I'm tired of people making excuses. Warrior did not magically improve over time, it only improved after Square Enix patched it. Likewise with Dragoon (and BLM, and SMN, etc).

 

And, look, you have hundreds of very competent players trying all sorts of ideas and combinations with these classes. These things get sussed out in days, not weeks. It's been long enough to know quite a bit more than the general gist of how these classes work. If nothing's been figured out now, nothing is going to change in another month unless Square Enix makes that change.

[Verad]

You seem really upset about this. Don't worry, they'll probably fix it.

[111]

You have no idea what MCH 'played optimally' looks like, and neither does anyone else at this point. So maybe just calm down and a wait a few weeks and see what the numbers end up being.

 

Really?

 

It's not complicated or even particularly difficult. Even NIN's "optimized" rotation only grants it roughly 30 DPS over the rotations people were doing at the start (assuming the player is competent and not completely neglecting obvious class features like you see in so many Crystal Tower parties *sigh*). This isn't going to MAGICALLY CHANGE just because someone figured out a slightly more optimal way to use the tools they've been given.

 

I'm tired of people making excuses. Warrior did not magically improve over time, it only improved after Square Enix patched it. Likewise with Dragoon (and BLM, and SMN, etc).

 

And, look, you have hundreds of very competent players trying all sorts of ideas and combinations with these classes. These things get sussed out in days, not weeks. It's been long enough to know quite a bit more than the general gist of how these classes work. If nothing's been figured out now, nothing is going to change in another month unless Square Enix makes that change.

 

If it doesn't, then so what?

 

I don't get the outrage. SMN spent all of 2.0 as the sub optimal magical dps after BLM got its buff. It's cool, people still played SMN, life went on.

 

Maybe MCH just isn't what you want it to be and that's ok. Either way we'll find out over the next few weeks.

[BroodingFicus]

As a NIN, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing with two separate aggro-dump skills. Somebody give me ideas that don't involve taking the tank's aggro to troll an annoying healer.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Unless a tank is just auto attacking I don't usually see huge issues with me getting aggro. I mean...I suppose we could use it to save a healer if adds got on them but two does seem overkill. Or maybe to help with tank swapping if it comes up? At least with smokescreen. If I am understanding shadewalker correctly and it makes a copy of us that then takes 80% of the aggro for 15 secs....I don't know. Take pressure off a tank if the healer is dead? I would have rather they just gave us smokescreen since we didn't have a enmity reducer and then something else. 

 

I'd be curious if anyone else had ideas for it though.

[Zyrusticae]

If it doesn't, then so what?

 

I don't get the outrage. SMN spent all of 2.0 as the sub optimal magical dps after BLM got its buff. It's cool, people still played SMN, life went on.

 

Maybe MCH just isn't what you want it to be and that's ok. Either way we'll find out over the next few weeks.

 

The thing is, the difference in power between SMN and BLM in 2.x was still negligable overall.

 

It wasn't even close to the difference between BRD and any melee DPS job, let alone the difference between MCH and literally any other DPS job. Even DPSing healers can out-DPS us. Off-tanks can out-DPS us. We're so bloody terrible at our jobs that we're literally a wasted slot.

 

SMN vs BLM, hah! Those guys don't know true suffering.

 

You seem really upset about this. Don't worry, they'll probably fix it.

 

Yeah, I know they'll fix it. They haven't (notably) failed us in that regard thus far, at least.

 

I just don't like denial in the face of facts, or the implication that even the most skilled players have no idea what they're doing until weeks or even months down the line (as though the game were that complicated...).

 

I'm also quite annoyed because I was REALLY excited to play MCH, but seeing them in this state utterly destroys my motivation to level up the class (and since it was going to be my new main, well...). It's fortunate that there's no content that requires optimal play just yet, and there won't be any until 3.1 releases in July, but the rest of the time I get to run dungeons with the knowledge that my party members would be better off with literally any other DPS class taking my spot. I don't know about you, but that's hardly my idea of 'fun'.

[Verad]

Do you feel ashamed for having chosen an at-present weaker class and a burden on your party, then? Is that the frustration?

[Manari]

I sort of understand. I loved Bard until I finally decided to get serious in early 2.0 and downloaded a parser. I had equal or close gear ilvl and knew exactly how to DPS but I couldn't match or surpass anyone. Apparently that is "working as intended" for Bard because they can give mages some MP back slowly. (Which lowers their DPS even MORE) When I learned that, switched to Monk instead until NIN came out (which I wanted since 1.0 anyway). I never felt that being able to give mages some slightly faster MP regeneration would ever make up for the lower DPS bard has, especially when MP is almost meaningless to BLM and even SCH and SMN for the most part. But that was a long time ago, I'm probably never going back to Bard either way. I'll wait for Ranger!

[111]

I think some of the anger over the bard changes is justified, however it doesn't seem all bad.

 

Bards had no loss in DPS at all when moving in 2.0, which made them hit the top of the charts in very high movement fights, or portions of fights with constant movement. However to balance it, when standing still, other DPS would surpass them. Obviously their songs and such made up for this to an extent.

 

I think square is trying to give them the best of both. They can still run around during portions of the fight and do good DPS, but they now can put out more damage when stationary as well. This requires some level of stance dancing, which I think is good.

 

I mean, tough luck bards, now you actually have to think about when you have time to stand still and when you don't.

[Zyrusticae]

That's all well and good, but the fact remains that BRDs and MCHs get to deal with an entirely different playstyle once they hit level 52+. It's a rather harsh and jarring transition, to be sure.

 

Do you feel ashamed for having chosen an at-present weaker class and a burden on your party, then? Is that the frustration?

 

Pretty much. That, and spending the dozens of hours needed to get it to its current level.

 

Well, it's not wasted, since I'll still be playing it and it will most likely get buffed pretty quick. It's just quite unpleasant, and a rather bizarre sort of oversight considering how good they've been about balance before 3.0. Of course, I am biased as I would gladly have accepted an OP class that got nerfed down the line ala NIN than the opposite.