Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism

[Xzenivar]

As it's been said multiple times before in the thread. Not wanting to RP something because it disturbs or otherwise makes you uncomfortable is 100% fine, but don't try to act as if it doesn't exist in the setting. People don't come to a game or roleplay community, say "Man, I'd like to play a /huge dickbag racist/" and then go at it. They play the game or read into the lore, see things like that, and decide to give their characters flaws that are stated to be real problems in Eorzea.

 

I don't know what more proof people want. This argument should've ended a page ago with

 

Most of the races don’t really like each other

 

 

He's literally not saying it doesn't exist, though. He's just explaining his perspective and experiences as they relate to this sort of RP. He even said "from my point of view". That's not arguing. He's just saying they're lightly touched upon, relatively, compared to other themes- and I'm sure it seems especially so relative to his own life. (And argue about the IC/OOC separation stuff all you want, but there's a real human behind every RP character and their lives do effect their RP, even if the degree of it varies from person to person.) If you'd never played lancer you wouldn't be exposed to that plotline, for example. There's lots of ways you could miss it, the game honestly does gloss over it most of the time. It's mentioned, it exists, but it's not in your face or directed towards you most of the time.

 

edit: Sorry to come off like the tone police, I just feel like this thread (not you specifically) is coming off as overly argumentative, bordering on being a little hostile, on this particularly sensitive subject.

 

Thank you for your understanding

 

I don't know how much more clear I could make it. Others playing it up is cool with me, I don't think the player is any less of a person or anything because the character is racist. Taking ERP as an example, some people hate it and want nothing to do with it, some people think it's great and embrace it (I spent two hours reading and and going through links of a courtesan guide today, I have to say a great thank you for posting that, if the poster happens to read this). Is either of them wrong or less of a player for their stance? Does that mean they're somehow less of an rp'er if they do or do not participate in erotic themes?

 

I find the insinuation that I only like happy go lucky rp with where everything is great is insulting and honestly just stupid. Especially if someone hasn't rp'd with me. There's so much more to focus on if a focus is needed, and many other angles. If I don't like torture scenes rp'd in exacting detail, I then only want to play happy light stuff? That's ridiculous, but hey, torture happens in game world probably every time someone is 'questioned' off screen.

 

I'm not even saying it's not there, but having lived it, and living with it, I look at its depiction in game and see it as lightly done, this game isn't setting out to be super gritty and dark, even when it brings up a dark plot point or has a harsh moment.

 

If anyone needs another example, I could watch a movie based around the Vietnam war with my father, a veteran of that war. What I see might be greatly disturbing, what he could see is how much lighter the movie makes events out to be, and how it glosses over some aspects that to this day haunt him.

 

This is just a fact of story telling and the audience. Not all aspects are going to affect everyone in the same way. What one person sees as deep and poignant, another will look at it as fluff for any number of reasons. I don't make racist characters, or join in on that aspect, but I'm still down for other dark and gritty things. Out of character however, I absolutely want to keep things happy go lucky between players, I make no apologies for that. Because despite what some people think, there's a person on the other side of that screen typing, playing and interacting with us. Just because we're using electronic devices, doesn't mean it's not human interaction.

[ShoggMommy]

Racism does exist within the game, we know this. Lore has given snippets and Koji Fox himself has said that it exists. I don't think anyone is arguing this. We know it, some people enjoy rping it, others don't. I'm of the opinion that; do it but don't over do it. Otherwise it becomes an over-hyped cliche.

 

Though my bigger issue is mostly this thread in general because of the fact that this comes off as another; OP posting something to incite. Even if this isn't the intent, it comes off that way. I don't see the point of posting threads of the same concept by the same OP. There have been a number of threads of 'racism' that have been addressed already and in the end they always boil back down to this point that's already been discussed before by this same person.

 

We know OP dislikes au ra, miqo'te, he's expressed this before. And we -get- it. We know he dislikes them, we know he enjoys rping racial tension, etc. Don't get me wrong, that is fine. I have characters that dislike X race. However-we've had threads like this before from this exact OP. Even posts where he has posted in other threads.

 

Do we really need to go over the same exact issues that have been brought up a number of times already by the OP. We know what the camps are already on this topic. "People who like rping X" and "People who dislike rping Y" when it comes to racism. In the end all it does is end up with a locked thread because things get out of hand.

[Flashhelix]

"Very little" doesn't mean "none". He didn't say it doesn't exist. To me it seemed he was speaking in a relative sense. We all acknowledge it's there and it exists, but what we really seem to be disagreeing on is how relevant it should be to the individual player.

 

"The setting has very little racism" does not mean the same thing as "The setting's racism isn't relevant to my roleplay." That's all I'm going to say on the matter since this is going nowhere fast.

[BumblingSeaBiscuit]

I don't know. 

 

If you don't want to RP racist characters or themes, that's absolutely fine, and in fact, I have characters for the sole purpose of being 'happy-go-lucky/friend-of-everyone' that are a blast. Eorzea's racism never affects their lives or ever even comes up, and for all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist for them because of how they've lived their lives. Nobody is forcing you to RP stuff like this.

 

But, in the same vein, racism does exist in this game and this world and the lore we're steeped in. Whether it's the physical differences and beliefs between the Auri peoples, cultural differences between Wildwood and Duskwight Elezen, a general dislike for Hyurans after your character being stiffed on a deal, general Garlean hatred (or adoration), whatever reason anyone 'needs' to be racist, it's out there, and some people will also choose to RP it and have it be a part of their character. You can't close your eyes and say, "It doesn't exist, because I don't like it." That's not how things work.

 

It would honestly be better to bring up specific examples of all the races working together (such as at Carteneau/adventure groups/etc.), and making the IC claim that 'hey, we can all coexist, just look at x,y,z', than it would to take it OOC and say, 'as a player, this offends me and i want you to change you/your character/your stories/etc.'. That's not how it works, either.

 

If none of that works or suits your fancy? Politely excuse yourself from the RP. Nobody is going to chase you down and make you do anything you don't want to. You have free choice and agency for a reason, after all. You just need to use it.

 

It's really that simple, in my opinion.

 

Racism does exist within the game, we know this. Lore has given snippets and Koji Fox himself has said that it exists. I don't think anyone is arguing this. We know it, some people enjoy rping it, others don't. I'm of the opinion that; do it but don't over do it. Otherwise it becomes an overhyped cliche.

 

Though my bigger issue is mostly this thread in general because of the fact that this comes off as another; OP posting something to incite. Even if this isn't the intent, it comes off that way. I don't see the issue of posting threads of the same concept by the same OP. There have been numbers of thread of 'racial topics' that have been addressed already and in the end they always boil back down to this point that's already been discussed before.

 

We know OP dislikes au ra, miqo'te, he's expressed this before. And we -get- it. We know he dislikes them, we know he enjoys rping racial tension, etc. Don't get me wrong, that is fine. I have characters that dislike X race. However-we've had threads like this before from this exact OP. Even posts where he has posted in other threads.

 

Do we really need to go over the same exact issues that have been brought up a number of times already by the OP.

 

We know what the camps are already on this topic. "People who like rping X" and "People who dislike rping Y" when it comes to racism.

 

Pretty much this is how I feel about this thread. These discussions have happened enough it just sort of feels like we're at the, "Kicking the dead horse," stage? They're not even hard to find when you search for them.

 

That being said, some of the posts I've read have really given off the vibe of, "For shame, how dare you don't roleplay in ." Whereas that's not necessarily their intention I believe we all play characters the way we do for a reason.

 

And that's okay. It's one of those, "Live and let live," situations. I, also, can't honestly speak for how much of a problem this is out of my own experience. From what I've witnessed, people have accepted conservative and liberal characters in my social circles. There's never been a problem of, "How dare you RP a racist!"

 

Though, I have heard about these situations. I've heard about IC and OOC lines being crossed on both sides of this playing field (in other games, mind you, so I get where the fear stems from?). My only suggestion with this is:

If you don't want to roleplay a conservative character then don't.

If you don't want to roleplay with conservative characters then don't.

If you encounter a conservative player through public RP and don't want to be involved in it, leave, don't suddenly get OOC offended because they're not playing according to your sandbox. You went to the public sandbox. You can go back to yours and play with your toys and friends.

 

This goes for the liberal side, too:

 If you don't want to roleplay a liberal character then don't.

If you don't want to roleplay with liberal characters then don't.

If you encounter a liberal player through public RP and don't want to be involved in it, leave, don't suddenly get OOC offended because they're not playing according to your sandbox. You went to the public sandbox. You can go back to yours and play with your toys and friends.

 

IC =/= OOC

IG =/= RL

 

It's never going to be fully accepted by roleplay communites. There's always going to be "them apples," but the most you can do is strive to not be one of them. I play liberal characters. I'm comfortable with liberal characters. That isn't to say that I disapprove of conservative characters because enjoying liberal characters doesn't instantly make me some conservative hater. That's not how that works. I encourage players to tell their stories, how they want to be told, with the people they desire to tell them with. 

 

Blahblah, I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess my point is:

Play what you want to. You can encourage people to play various different archtypes and flaws but don't discourage people from playing in a fashion they're comfortable with.

 

*disclaimer: this is not directed to any one person. There's just some vibes I'm getting from this thread where it feels like it has gone or will go in that direction. Try to dodge it. You're all beautiful. ♥

[Dravus]

I wonder how much of this has to do with role-players being prone to escapism? There's no easy way to state this without being controversial but if there's one thing I've realised during my time playing numerous MMO's it's that a lot of the players who flock to them - particularly within the role-playing community - use role-play as a means of escapism.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing though it can and does sometimes go too far - especially when there's implications that someone is 'racist' or 'bad' in the real world because they happen to play a character who isn't politically correct.

 

We also live in a society that is currently going through a phase where if somebody doesn't like something then they can (and often do) kick and scream about being 'triggered' or 'offended' by it to the point where things end up getting censored and/or changed to avoid bad PR and to appease vocal individuals delicate sensibilities.

 

I'm not saying that this is what is going on within this thread but it's interesting to discuss and may explain why, in turn, people aren't all that keen on the idea of such themes being ignored, mitigated or shunned altogether.

 

If someone is 'triggered' by mature themes then it may be for the best that they avoid investing in stuff like The Witcher, Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead. They're also quite clearly labelled as having 'mature themes' (at least here in England) and the same can be said of FFXIV as far as I can tell.

 

Otherwise, where do we draw the line? If you cut 'racism' out of The Witcher, Game of Thrones or FFXIV then entire sub-plots and important characters would need to be completely rewritten. It serves only to limit creativity and in turn lead to stories becoming very bland.

 

Again, nobody is obligated to do anything they don't wish to do - and from what I can tell the OP isn't trying to demand that anybody does anything they don't want to do. Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but he seems to simply want to incite and interesting debate about a particular aspect of Eorzean society that isn't well represented within role-play.

[Marisa]

It's times like these I often wish I'd stuck with Barrett as my main RP character. God he was awesome... he loved to tell everyone their race sucked, and he wasn't afraid to punch a gnome for having a stupid face. 

You know what they say. The only good elf is a dead elf. Or the one who sells me that sweet Valenwood opium. Dwarves are cool, too. Everyone else can die in a ditch.

[TheLastCandle]

I find it interesting when a character is shaped by his/her experiences. The xenophobic nationalism common to places like Ishgard is a good example of this. When I first started playing Yvelont, he had plenty of misgivings about the more unfamiliar races - Miqo'te in particular, as after he came to Gridania, everything he heard about the local Keepers painted them as poachers and brigands. Over time, his outlook began to change as he began working with and even befriending these heretofore unfamiliar peoples. He even took on one of these "poachers" as an apprentice, to teach her to better defend and hunt for her clan.

 

In roleplay, I love coming across more traditional Ishgardian characters just for the contrast.

[Kellach Woods]

it's hard for me to take this thread seriously because of the title.

 

Gridanian Racism

to give you an idea : we give more of a shit about this than Square does - Amounts of time it's been brought up since the 2.0 quests? Zero. It's not even brought up if your character is a duskwight. I'd not be surprised if they were like "uh who gives a shit about Gridania anyway go grind some more."

 

Ul'dah is a bunch of douchebags part 234087234982384

nothing new under the bridge here. this has been covered extensively throughout the MSQ that Ul'dah is a piece of shit city and anyone living in it should set themselves on fire for penance of living there.

 

-signed, Sil'dih.

 

Overall racism

if racism was as overt as some of y'all are saying it'd be part of the quests a whole lot more than in that one Lancer (and Archer questlines - remember the Keeper gal says she had some problems fitting in) questline. hell most of the racist questlines lie in ONE place - Gridania.

 

Ishgard is religious fanaticism, and not racism (else the hyur, though they have a rawer deal than the elezen for the most part, would have been a lot more present in the Brume) - though the hatred of interracial relationships is part of every culture (Wanderer's Palace Hard unlock quest confirms it in Limsa, and MSQ in Ishgard).

[Blue]

[spoiler=The following content has been hidden by mods due to potential spoilers

 

P.S. why couldn't the sultana have actually stayed dead?

 

Wait what...

 

Are you joking or did you just drop a big spoilerbomb...?

 

It's... It's in the opening trailer to Heavensward and the content involving it came out in March. It's not really a spoiler at this point.

 

Uh, the trailer says nothing about the sultana staying ALIVE. Thank you so much...

 

 

You're right, that's a plot point handled around the mid-fifties from content that came out nearly two months ago. Thank YOU very much.

 

And it was definitely an off-topic spoiler too. Let's just all do each other a favor and tag all of this in spoiler tabs.

 

Anyways, back on topic...

 

 

I don't think this should much of an "be racist!" "don't be racist!" argument. I think it's more of giving some care to people who do choose certain targeted races/jobs/statues/whatchamacallit. I chose a Duskwight because I wanted to be ICly targeted with discrimination, and I didn't get any. I chose Au Ra because I wanted to be treated like an intruder, someone unknown and to be mistrusted, and I didn't get any. It's a sort of mistreatment, in a way, though obviously not intended.

 

But it's not much like refusing to acknowledge that a Miqo'te has a tail or that a Lalafell is small. People choose their characters based on what they want to RP, and refusing to acknowledge how the setting treats a certain character's race (again, race being an example), is not too far from refusing to acknowledge what the player wanted their character to be.

 

Or at least, that is the way I see it. I'm sure there are Au Ra or Duskwight RPers out there who don't want to be ICly mistreated despite the world's settings. And I'm glad they're getting what they want. At the same time, I'm upset I am not getting what I want.

[Dravus]

I think one of my biggest issues with the lack of racism within role-play is that it's all too easy for many of the playable races to literally come across as 'hyur-with-long-ears'. It's something that always rubbed me the wrong way about many blood elves back when I role-played in WoW.

 

I adored the race and their lore and yet the bulk of role-players ignored all that in favour of just portraying them as if they were humans adhering to real world modern day values and morality.

 

Discrimination (when done tastefully) adds an immense amount of depth to a character be they victim or perpetrator. I really hope that this discussion encourages more role-players to indulge!

[Blue]

I think one of my biggest issues with the lack of racism within role-play is that it's all too easy for many of the playable races to literally come across as 'hyur-with-long-ears'. It's something that always rubbed me the wrong way about many blood elves back when I role-played in WoW.

 

I adored the race and their lore and yet the bulk of role-players ignored all that in favour of just portraying them as if they were humans adhering to real world modern day values and morality.

 

Discrimination (when done tastefully) adds an immense amount of depth to a character be they victim or perpetrator. I really hope that this discussion encourages more role-players to indulge!

 

Specifically about Hyurs and ears, it was brought to my attention that in Eorzea's settings, it's actually Hyurs (and Roes, I guess?) who are told to have "strange, short, round ears". So I think they're the ones who should get mocked at about them in this.

 

At least, my characters do often make comments about Hyurs' weak and weird ears, much to the IC discontent (and OOC amusement) of my Hyur friends.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

[[Takes out the mod device]]

 

This is gonna be the final public plea/warning to please do the following:

 

1) Keep the thread on topic

2) Be courteous to other posters

3) Stay level-headed or not post

 

Off-topic posts that could be salvaged into a thread have been moved here:

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=12801

 

Off-topic posts containing information on the 3.0 MSQ have been removed, with the parts that could not be clipped out being put under a spoiler tag.

 

Let's keep this thread alive as a discussion and on-topic. The next general round of mod-work will result in a lock.

 

[[]]

[Flickering Ember]

The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.

Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.

 

It's fine if other people do it, and I wouldn't scold anyone for doing it. It's built into the lore and in most games, anyway. I find it tiring after a while, and just prefer to move on to other themes that I'm more interested in, rather than emulating something I would prefer didn't exist.

 

The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.

Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.

It may just be me, but I find that these type of posts indicate what I was pointing out before; the good old IC is not OOC confusion.

I ask you, if you do not feel comfortable with these themes in the setting, why does one roleplay in FFXIV and not jump to another game, setting or anything, where these topics do not come up?

It just seems strange to me to stay willingly in a setting if you can not set apart IC and OOC if these topics get onto your nerves.

 

I am going to have to agree with tortles on this. Plus, wanting to avoid certain themes and styles of RP is very different from mixing IC and OOC. I have roleplayed as a racist/prejudiced jerk before so I totally know how it is when people get mad at you for RPing that. However, getting messaged from a friend that "X is upset that you don't like him because you were mean to his character" is much different from "I am sorry, but I am going to bow out of this RP."

 

I can completely understand why some folks really don't want racism in their RP or fantasy entertainment. I often feel the same way about sexism. "Oh look, another medieval fantasy where women are bargaining chips and breeders. How....original?" So just because it's a fantasy you have to shoehorn sexism in somewhere to a magical place that isn't earth nor has any of earth's history? Well, okay then. So I can empathize with tortles on this. 

 

Plus, it's actually really refreshing to not have to deal with these themes in RP as they are certainly much overused. 

 

Aside from that though, I think folks are really reaching for how much racism there is in this game. There are certainly prejudices, but not really that much in the form of racism. There is a little bit of racism and sexism on a subtle level that is similar to what we experience irl. (All of the Syndicate in a melting pot city being lalafell, most races/clans practicing patriarchal lineages)

 

The two areas being mentioned are Gridania and Ishgard. Gridania has really been toned down since 1.0, I hear. Ishgard is not necessarily racist but classist and xenophobic. (Note, there is a difference between racism and xenophobia.)

 

If Gridania and Ishgard are meant to be racist, or any other city-states for that matter, then I am going to just have to flat out say that Square Enix does not do a good job of it showing it. 

 

I've seen a lot of other former WoW-players around here so I am going to use a WoW example. In WoW, there was racism all the time due to many of the playable races not getting along. The lore of the game gave you lots of fodder if you wanted to play a racist jerk. Orcs and goblins destroying your forest? Weird, reclusive aliens bringing a race of demons to your planet that inevitably corrupts and destroys it? Attempted genocide? Multiple wars? A vast array of races that both look different but have extremely varying customs as well? 

 

Outside of WoW, I've also been in TOR and GW2, both of which show racism more effectively than FFXIV does. (Twi'leks, charr)

 

I have been roleplaying in this game working on 2 years now and I couldn't tell you a specific example of how Gridania is racist outside of the Elementals not healing a group of Ala Mhigans. I know there must be more to it than that but the fact I have been in this game for that long and still don't know a single example, says something. All of the playable races look very similar with most blending together in cities and sharing the same customs. (IMO, city miqo'te are the norm, not the exception) No recent wars aside from with Garlemald that I am aware of. This is where I go back to "there is not much fodder to play a racist jerk" with. 

 

"Show, don't tell."

Until then, I'm of the mindset that racism in Eorzea is subdued at best.

[Naunet]

I have been roleplaying in this game working on 2 years now and I couldn't tell you a specific example of how Gridania is racist outside of the Elementals not healing a group of Ala Mhigans.

 

Duskwight elezen are not treated well at all in Gridania, something scene in both the lancer quest and in idle NPC interaction in the city.

 

That said, I agree that if someone doesn't want to RP a racist... okay? It's not like every Wildwood character has to be derisive of Duskwights. I'm not entirely sure why people are getting so up in arms against people who don't feel like RPing a character that utilizes a completely optional aspect of the world.

[Flickering Ember]

I wonder how much of this has to do with role-players being prone to escapism? There's no easy way to state this without being controversial but if there's one thing I've realised during my time playing numerous MMO's it's that a lot of the players who flock to them - particularly within the role-playing community - use role-play as a means of escapism.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing though it can and does sometimes go too far - especially when there's implications that someone is 'racist' or 'bad' in the real world because they happen to play a character who isn't politically correct.

 

We also live in a society that is currently going through a phase where if somebody doesn't like something then they can (and often do) kick and scream about being 'triggered' or 'offended' by it to the point where things end up getting censored and/or changed to avoid bad PR and to appease vocal individuals delicate sensibilities.

 

I'm not saying that this is what is going on within this thread but it's interesting to discuss and may explain why, in turn, people aren't all that keen on the idea of such themes being ignored, mitigated or shunned altogether.

 

If someone is 'triggered' by mature themes then it may be for the best that they avoid investing in stuff like The Witcher, Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead. They're also quite clearly labelled as having 'mature themes' (at least here in England) and the same can be said of FFXIV as far as I can tell.

 

Otherwise, where do we draw the line? If you cut 'racism' out of The Witcher, Game of Thrones or FFXIV then entire sub-plots and important characters would need to be completely rewritten. It serves only to limit creativity and in turn lead to stories becoming very bland.

 

Again, nobody is obligated to do anything they don't wish to do - and from what I can tell the OP isn't trying to demand that anybody does anything they don't want to do. Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but he seems to simply want to incite and interesting debate about a particular aspect of Eorzean society that isn't well represented within role-play.

 

 

Oh, I absolutely do use roleplay as a form of escapism. That's not to say that I don't also do it for fun and it's not a 100% conscious decision anyway. I will shamelessly admit, though, that I do happily get escapism from roleplaying. Though, it's really a lot more complex than not wanting to deal with certain themes. RP-wise, I am actually pretty open about what or who I RP with. It's my outlook on the RP and settings that change, especially since lore is mostly interpretative and not as objective as folks think it is.

 

I would not use FFXIV as a comparison though, to things like Game of Thrones and The Witcher. FFXIV is pretty clean, like Guild Wars 2 level of clean. Mind you, I haven't beaten HW content yet, but the story hasn't seemed as dark as folks have been claiming it to be?

I love gritty stuff like Game of Thrones though because it does not attempt to excuse or glorify these themes. It outright villainizes them.

 

If a fantasy introduces racist/sexist elements and then sweeps them under the rug where they don't hold much importance to the story or world, other than to just exist--that is when I get disgruntled. 

 

I definitely understand the call to arms for more people to RP as racists. I understand the want to have RP match more closely to the lore. I was actually going to respond to your post in the previous thread about mixed fantasy races.

 

It's just...for me personally...the game lore does a pretty poor job of giving good reasons to be a IC racist. (See my previous post in this thread for a fantasy world that does quite well in excelling at this--Warcraft)

[Flickering Ember]

I have been roleplaying in this game working on 2 years now and I couldn't tell you a specific example of how Gridania is racist outside of the Elementals not healing a group of Ala Mhigans.

 

Duskwight elezen are not treated well at all in Gridania, something scene in both the lancer quest and in idle NPC interaction in the city.

 

That said, I agree that if someone doesn't want to RP a racist... okay? It's not like every Wildwood character has to be derisive of Duskwights. I'm not entirely sure why people are getting so up in arms against people who don't feel like RPing a character that utilizes a completely optional aspect of the world.

 

Oh, I wasn't doubting that there were examples I missed. And in hindsight, I am sad I forgot about the Duskwights. (Though I still don't even know why they are persecuted against to begin with?) What I mean is that it should be absolutely clear and not hidden in any way that there is racism in Eorzea. (But it seems they do this for most of their lore too, meh) As a player, I find this extremely irritating. The fact that I completely forgot about Duskwights to begin with shows there is a problem with SE's world building.

 

It's the equivalent of....if Harry Potter were to "establish there is prejudice against muggles" and then never go into further detail or show it being an issue.

[FreelanceWizard]

It's just...for me personally...the game lore does a pretty poor job of giving good reasons to be a IC racist. (See my previous post in this thread for a fantasy world that does quite well in excelling at this--Warcraft)

 

Part of the problem is that, outside of Gridania's well-known dislike for keepers (poachers) and duskwights (knaves and thieves), and Ishgard's well-known nationalism that tends to appear as racist, we don't see a whole lot in the city-states. That's because, I speculate, the city-states are the cosmopolitan melting pots, given all the adventurers that live and work there. Fernehalwes's already noted that adventurers are a more open-minded, educated lot as a whole, and RL history will tell you that people tend to eventually habituate to "others" when they live in the same place long enough. The most accepting places around are likely those adventurer towns, Revenant's Toll (home the adventurers' guild) and Idyllshire.

 

Personally, I view the city-states as a lot like, say, Gangs of New York in feel. There's some awful bigotry and a fair amount of prejudice (duskwights are thieves, seekers are whores, lalafell are rich bastards, roegadyn are dumb cutthroats, etc.), but you don't usually have blood in the streets.

 

Usually.

 

The further away you get from the city-states, the less you have sneering pronouncements and the more you have outright, explicit, sometimes violent racism. Eorzea's a pretty dangerous place, though, so sometimes you have to band together with those you hate so that the big morbol doesn't eat you all. That probably makes exile the more likely consequence for getting on the ugly side of racism (as we see in the WP HM unlock quest line).

 

So what does this mean for a character? If you're an adventurer, I'd argue you have a lot of reasons to not be particularly racist. You're exposed to lots of different people and cultures, which tends to blunt prejudices. You also have lots of reasons you might be, including family history, hundreds if not thousands of years of culture, dislike of refugees trying to Take Your Jobs, or simply thinking those short, round ears are just plain gross. If you're not an adventurer, you're probably more likely to be racist, but who knows? Maybe you think other races are cute. Maybe a duskwight adventurer saved your life.

 

The long and short of it, IMO, is that the setting is open enough for people to put as much or as little prejudice in their characters as they like.

[Flashhelix]

It's just...for me personally...the game lore does a pretty poor job of giving good reasons to be a IC racist. (See my previous post in this thread for a fantasy world that does quite well in excelling at this--Warcraft)

 

Part of the problem is that, outside of Gridania's well-known dislike for keepers (poachers) and duskwights (knaves and thieves), and Ishgard's well-known nationalism that tends to appear as racist, we don't see a whole lot in the city-states. That's because, I speculate, the city-states are the cosmopolitan melting pots, given all the adventurers that live and work there. Fernehalwes's already noted that adventurers are a more open-minded, educated lot as a whole, and RL history will tell you that people tend to eventually habituate to "others" when they live in the same place long enough. The most accepting places around are likely those adventurer towns, Revenant's Toll (home the adventurers' guild) and Idyllshire.

 

Personally, I view the city-states as a lot like, say, Gangs of New York in feel. There's some awful bigotry and a fair amount of prejudice (duskwights are thieves, seekers are whores, lalafell are rich bastards, roegadyn are dumb cutthroats, etc.), but you don't usually have blood in the streets.

 

Usually.

 

The further away you get from the city-states, the less you have sneering pronouncements and the more you have outright, explicit, sometimes violent racism. Eorzea's a pretty dangerous place, though, so sometimes you have to band together with those you hate so that the big morbol doesn't eat you all. That probably makes exile the more likely consequence for getting on the ugly side of racism (as we see in the WP HM unlock quest line).

 

So what does this mean for a character? If you're an adventurer, I'd argue you have a lot of reasons to not be particularly racist. You're exposed to lots of different people and cultures, which tends to blunt prejudices. You also have lots of reasons you might be, including family history, hundreds if not thousands of years of culture, dislike of refugees trying to Take Your Jobs, or simply thinking those short, round ears are just plain gross. If you're not an adventurer, you're probably more likely to be racist, but who knows? Maybe you think other races are cute. Maybe a duskwight adventurer saved your life.

 

The long and short of it, IMO, is that the setting is open enough for people to put as much or as little prejudice in their characters as they like.

 

^This whole post. Nobody's saying playing a non-racist character is impossible. It's just as possible as playing a racist character. One of the cruxes of Idyllshire quests is the lack of prejudice and how everybody gets along. It's the same reason the Doman refugees settled down in Mor Dhona.

[Caspar]

Again, the problem with this sort of discussion is that there is no reason why the majority of rpers need to play that element of the setting. It is not "avoiding the setting" or refusing to play in it as some people in the thread have said, and I question whether that even has value to the discussion at all. Just because the majority of rp characters are not racist does not mean that in fact they are arguing by their very refusal to rp racism that there is none in setting. I think the whole "it's fine if you want to play that, I just won't play with you," is too often being used as an excuse to shame players for playing differently. If you write a character, and find there is no room for Eorzean xenophobia, it is what it is. Granted, I can understand being disappointed if not many pcs discriminate against yours, and you want it to happen. (I do too.) The player base can be considered to be a small portion of the actual in setting population, with the rest of the setting being less accepting. That said, I still believe the xenophobia is being overstated, and that this is another instance of "gritty" rpers taking their own perception of the setting as canon, much as they do with politics and combat physics. It sounds pretty vague to me, and I disagree that the previously linked dev post argued that Eorzea was either a melting pot or a racist hive of lynching and hatred. It only argued that virulent racism does exist in every culture in the setting, and may be something you have to deal with when getting friendly with someone who is an "other." The races interact with one another every day in this world, and every race is present in every region, even if not equally dominant. They have to be able to put on a polite face to hide their disdain for one another, at the very least, so they can work together. And don't forget, the universal adversary of Garlemald tends to distract people from old hatreds, while directing it with extreme force in another direction.

[Kellach Woods]

also i'd wager adventurers would be the least racist of all because they actively depend on others for their living. it's hard to shit on others when you need their gil.

 

and a good portion play adventurers.

[Flickering Ember]

Hm. I am going to make a bullet point post to sum up my points. Admittedly, I kinda feel like the points in my previous posts might be hard to understand.

 

Issue 1: The game writers take a "Tell" instead of "Show" stance to their in game lore. 

 

1. Sin linked a very informative post from the writers that tells us how the world is supposed to be. A lot of Koji Fox's words, in my opinion, clash harshly from what we see in game. (I would never in a million years have gotten the vibe that all these different races hang out with each other but dislike each other?

 

2. There are a couple of side quests that deal with racism, as well as some ambient dialogues from NPCs. Both of these are extremely easy to miss and I have never come across any of these examples.

 

3. "Eorzea is a terrible place to live." There are implications in this thread that Eorzea is dangerous and harsh. I don't see how FFXIV is even the tiniest bit of a gritty fantasy though. (See: Berserk and Attack on Titan for comparisons) City states, and the world as a whole for that matter, are clean and pretty. We see mixed races regularly not only getting along, but befriending each other, in the majority of quests available to us in FFXIV. Suffering is implied, rather than shown. (If Eorzea is so dangerous, why don't we see more people dying during quests?)

 

Conclusion: More roleplayers don't acknowledge racism in their RP because it just isn't obvious. Point 1 requires you to look for sources outside the game. Point 2 are obscure sources in game that are hard to find. Point 3 shows how certain lore elements in game conflict with the idea of suffering and racism being widespread.

 

Therefore: Presumably, few people RP these elements because they are simply not known.

 

 

Issue 2: Some people don't like RPing elements of racism

 

1. This has nothing to do with mixing IC and OOC. Folks who don't want to RP racism aren't getting personally insulted over it, they just don't enjoy those themes. I don't force my friends and family who dislike horror movies to sit down and watch a horror movie and then explain: "Why do you dislike horror movies? It's not like this is happening to real people. It's not like it's happening to you."

 

2. It's honestly pretty over done with most fantasy universes already featuring it in spades. Some folks actually find races getting along to be more interesting than racism because we almost never get to see it. Strife may be an essential part of story-telling and RP but it can be gained elsewhere.

 

3. Way more examples of races positively interacting each other on a friendship based level, not just 'tolerating' each other like Koji Fox's post states. This conflict in what we see in lore gives those people who don't want to RP elements of racism equally valid reasons to not RP racists.

 

Conclusion: Racism is not an integral experience to FFXIV. It is there. How common it is is debatable, given Issue 1. As Freelance states above, there is strong merit to go either way with your RP. Plenty of wiggle room to RP a racist or to not RP a racist. If you choose to not RP a racist, you are not writing an unbelievable RP character. Additionally, people can RP what they want and shouldn't be accused of mixing IC and OOC for it. I have little desire to RP the MSQ or ERP or any number of themes (see: Warren's post on page #2). You can RP those things. I won't think less of you for it. Let's respect each other's likes and dislikes and acknowledge that we don't have to RP with each other if we don't get along.

[Flickering Ember]

Again, the problem with this sort of discussion is that there is no reason why the majority of rpers need to play that element of the setting. It is not "avoiding the setting" or refusing to play in it as some people in the thread have said, and I question whether that even has value to the discussion at all. Just because the majority of rp characters are not racist does not mean that in fact they are arguing by their very refusal to rp racism that there is none in setting. I think the whole "it's fine if you want to play that, I just won't play with you," is too often being used as an excuse to shame players for playing differently. If you write a character, and find there is no room for Eorzean xenophobia, it is what it is. Granted, I can understand being disappointed if not many pcs discriminate against yours, and you want it to happen. (I do too.) The player base can be considered to be a small portion of the actual in setting population, with the rest of the setting being less accepting. That said, I still believe the xenophobia is being overstated, and that this is another instance of "gritty" rpers taking their own perception of the setting as canon, much as they do with politics and combat physics. It sounds pretty vague to me, and I disagree that the previously linked dev post argued that Eorzea was either a melting pot or a racist hive of lynching and hatred. It only argued that virulent racism does exist in every culture in the setting, and may be something you have to deal with when getting friendly with someone who is an "other." The races interact with one another every day in this world, and every race is present in every region, even if not equally dominant. They have to be able to put on a polite face to hide their disdain for one another, at the very least, so they can work together. And don't forget, the universal adversary of Garlemald tends to distract people from old hatreds, while directing it with extreme force in another direction.

 

 

I am just going to quote this for emphasis. I truly and 100% agree with every word spoken in this post. Virara makes some amazing points that I have thought myself but never had the guts to say in a thread before.

[Yssen]

It is worth pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a miqo as far as this issue goes. People can be justifiably uncomfortable with portraying a character's possible racism and prejudice, but it is also equally possible to portray the effects of racism and prejudice on your own character. The world is not filled with only PCs and their actions, and it is probably easier to explore this particular topic by expanding on how NPCs treat your character, rather than expecting everyone to be okay with portraying it with their characters. Discussing personal examples of prejudice and discrimination your character has faced ICly, as well as portraying how incidents of the same have affected your character's attitudes/behavior are probably easier ways to explore this subject. Heck, probably the best way to explore most touchy subjects. Yar.

[Blue]

It is worth pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a miqo as far as this issue goes. People can be justifiably uncomfortable with portraying a character's possible racism and prejudice, but it is also equally possible to portray the effects of racism and prejudice on your own character. The world is not filled with only PCs and their actions, and it is probably easier to explore this particular topic by expanding on how NPCs treat your character, rather than expecting everyone to be okay with portraying it with their characters. Discussing personal examples of prejudice and discrimination your character has faced ICly, as well as portraying how incidents of the same have affected your character's attitudes/behavior are probably easier ways to explore this subject. Heck, probably the best way to explore most touchy subjects. Yar.

 

Yeah, it's what I've been doing with the characters I want to be discriminated so far. It just gets depressing when, as I ICly discuss this with some other RPer, I get the "Oh, I'd never do that!/I've never seen that happen around here!" rigmarole. Especially as I try to portrait my Au Ra getting discriminated and unable to find a job or roof to stay at, it's a bitter spoonful to be ICly told that everything is merry and happy. The extensive amount of mixed couples who openly exhibit affection in public is just another version of that, as well. There's sooo many of them.

[Proud Dahlia]

I was struggling to think if I should reply to this thread because I was worried I was going to go off on an angry tangent. The original post here is framed in a way that is pretty presumptuous about people's politics. I'm not even going to get into the statement that most of the internet is "liberal". Moreover, there is the stated notion that prejudice is a "conservative" notion. That's frustratingly simplistic and naive. I don't want to start a huge argument over this, but trying to frame this argument while drawing comparison to modern politics (modern western-centered politics, at that) is a recipe for disaster.

 

Anyway, on to the subject at hand. Eorzea as a setting is full of bigotry, hatred, and hardship. These things exist and are very real. They do in fact tend to be the norm, for varying reasons depending on the specific instance in question.  Should this necessarily be reflected in people's characters? No, not necessarily. Adventurers are often defiant of norms. That said, I feel the darkness of the setting should not be ignored.

 

So perhaps your Ishgardian isn't especially wary around the Au Ra, or perhaps your character feels the mistrust of Duskwight is wrong. That is perfectly fine. However, as a writer one should ask "why?". What makes this character different? What about their experiences or beliefs causes this deviation from the norm? This can help build a further understanding of your character and make them more alive.

 

Similarly, players of commonly persecuted characters should consider that public opinion may well be against them. Perhaps your Duskwight is becoming rather prominent within the Conjurer's guild. Is she making any rivals? Are the common folk rallying against her promotion?  These sorts of things can also enrich a character and their ongoing experience. These are not, of course, mandatory, but it can exist to add some conflict to a story that might otherwise not be there.

 

In closing, prejudice certainly exists and there are cultural norms. A player need not necessarily have their character embrace them, but should be aware of them and may wish to think about the role they play in their life.