Selling housing now illegal?

[Ignacius]

I'm gonna agree with others on here and side with the gm. I can't say for certain if its against tos but can see why it would be. If people were allowed to buy and sell houses it would have an incredibly negative impact for housing. 

 

As it stands housing in this game is utter shit with only a tiny percent of players being able to enjoy the content. And now you want to let the rich players fuck everyone else by turning this into a capitalist paradise where players buy housing then sell it to others for a profit. Fuck to the no.

 

I hope they do crack down on house sellers.

 

They certainly need to do something.  The thing I miss the most about Wildstar right now is the housing.

[Aoi Fukiku]

I'm gonna agree with others on here and side with the gm. I can't say for certain if its against tos but can see why it would be. If people were allowed to buy and sell houses it would have an incredibly negative impact for housing. 

 

As it stands housing in this game is utter shit with only a tiny percent of players being able to enjoy the content. And now you want to let the rich players fuck everyone else by turning this into a capitalist paradise where players buy housing then sell it to others for a profit. Fuck to the no.

 

I hope they do crack down on house sellers.

 

They certainly need to do something.  The thing I miss the most about Wildstar right now is the housing.

I LOVE wildstar housing. Too bad I didn't like the game enough to stay but I do agree that the housing in this game needs work

[Mikoto]

I'm sure housing will get much better 4.x and beyond since they are now dropping the weakest link in the equation [PS3]. I remember Yoshi-P stating that PS3 has been holding them back when it came to more plots or such? I'll try to get a link since this is coming off the top of my head.

 

EDIT: Just saw a reddit thread on this and someone said something that made sense. Basically the way the GM worded is that it's in a grey area, you won't get cracked down for doing it but if you get scammed then the GM support won't be there to assist.

 

Outside of that - Can't wait for the auto relinquish houses for inactive people ><

[Pyrefly]

((I don't agree with this being illegal because, honestly, it is impossible to purchase housing in some servers due to there being no open slots. But it could be deemed illegal through an ethical standpoint? Regardless of if there is a gil transaction or not, the GMs may see it as unfair for a person who is abandoning their plot to basically promise it to someone else. Essentially it is robbing others in the game of the equal opportunity to buy the plot when the person who owns it relinquishes it. That is the only reason that really makes sense to me.))

[ɴᴘᴄ]

I certainly would like to be able to legally take part in the Gil sink someday. The fact that players resort to housing scams is a glaring symptom.

[Kage]

I've been blatantly schooled that this is a hoax!

 

However please note that [GM]Gm has seen usage in the past and...

The unfortunate proof that I had my Goblet Medium Plot Sale thread deleted when I made it on the official forums.

[Blue]

Honestly getting paid to leave a plot is not very different from selling wedding bangles. It's possible, it can be done, but Yoshida said to "please don't do it".

 

The way I see it, housing the way it is currently intended, is supposed to work in the way that you buy a plot, and when you no longer want it, you just relinquish it and leave it for anyone else to take it. You're not supposed to get gil back from relinquishing a plot, from the game or from other players. If SE wanted house owners to get money for relinquishing a plot, they would've already implemented a sell system or a refund system.

 

The lack thereof of said system is, to me, a sign that they don't want you to get gil for leaving a plot, and I think this is where the "violation" stands. Housing is a gil sink, and thus is not supposed to be a way to make profit off of it (example: claiming a small plot for 5M and then trying to make someone pay you 15M to leave it). Just like selling bangles, you are doing something that they did not want to be intended in the game, but that at the same time they cannot contrast because the mechanics allow it.

 

So again, it's more a case of "please don't do it".

[Kage]

Highly different. Wedding bangles are items bought with REAL money and then were being sold for gil because you can trade the items.

[LiadansWhisper]

I've been blatantly schooled that this is a hoax!

 

However please note that [GM]Gm has seen usage in the past and...

The unfortunate proof that I had my Goblet Medium Plot Sale thread deleted when I made it on the official forums.

 

...so...it's NOT okay to advertise that you're selling land?  Or it is?  I'm so confused now.

[111]

I've been blatantly schooled that this is a hoax!

 

However please note that [GM]Gm has seen usage in the past and...

The unfortunate proof that I had my Goblet Medium Plot Sale thread deleted when I made it on the official forums.

 

...so...it's NOT okay to advertise that you're selling land?  Or it is?  I'm so confused now.

 

I think the GMs just don't wanna deal with any reports of scams or people complaining. So they just say "It is illegal, if you file a complaint we'll punish you both."

 

Then they look the other way.

 

Same with parsers.

[Tonberry Prince]

Honestly, they should take a page from the real world.  You purchase a plot.  You pay taxes on the plots.  If you can't pay them, they get repossessed.  You're free to buy/sell plots as you see fit.

[Zetchryn]

Honestly, they should take a page from the real world.  You purchase a plot.  You pay taxes on the plots.  If you can't pay them, they get repossessed.  You're free to buy/sell plots as you see fit.

 

 

Archeage actually does this system. If you can't pay your taxes, your land goes up for sale to other players.

[Blue]

Highly different. Wedding bangles are items bought with REAL money and then were being sold for gil because you can trade the items.

 

I'm not talking about the nature of the business, I'm talking about the approach that SE has towards it. It is the same ("We know you can do it, but please don't do it.")

 

Housing was not made with the idea that people would make other players pay them to leave claim of a limited content. Housing was intended as a gil sink, not a way to make gil, and that is why there isn't a feature to sell plots.

 

That people can "get money back" or "profit" from selling their plots is an unwritten rule decided by the (majority of) the community, and not from SE themselves. When they made the wards, they probably innocently thought that players who no longer wanted their house would simply relinquish the plot freely, without making others pay. Obviously this is not what is happening.

 

It would be as if I had the power to keep claim of all the karakuls in Coerthas at the same time. You want the skins, I'm not letting you have them. You can pay me to leave, or you can simply wait for me to leave. SE thought people would do the latter, but in fact, as it stands (due to the atrocious situation of housing on high pop. server), there are more people willing to pay for me to leave the sheep (house) than there are willing to wait for me to simply get tired of trying to sell it and leave the area (plot).

 

Now some might argue that, if the game had a built-in refund system, people would not force other players to pay them to leave a plot. But then comes again the fact that housing is an intended gil-sink. So no, there will never be a refund system from the game, and I honestly feel that circumvent this nature by taking the gil of other players is unethical, as well as unfair. If the game made you pay 6M for your house, I don't see why I should pay 21M for it instead, just because I came after you.

[Ilwe'ran]

About that hoax thing, I posted the discussion on tumblr and some other people already met that GM.

[Telluride]

To paraphrase George Carlin...

 

Selling is legal.

Housing is legal.

Why isn't selling housing legal?

[SessionZero]

Now some might argue that, if the game had a built-in refund system, people would not force other players to pay them to leave a plot. But then comes again the fact that housing is an intended gil-sink. So no, there will never be a refund system from the game, and I honestly feel that circumvent this nature by taking the gil of other players is unethical, as well as unfair. If the game made you pay 6M for your house, I don't see why I should pay 21M for it instead, just because I came after you.

 

Building a system based on the expected altruism of people on the internet is a system designed from the ground up to fail miserably. Since the dawn of digital interaction we've proved that if you give someone on the internet a chance to be a massive jerk, they will be a massive jerk nine times out of ten. Intention doesn't mean jack squat if you don't implement the means to enforce that intention. If SE is honestly surprised that people took advantage of a glaring loophole in the housing system, I would question just how based in reality Yoshi-P's housing team really is.

[Larson]

Personally, I would just lamp in on a sell, then swoop in and grab it before the other person. It's fair and square if I got it the legal way.

 

[edit] But I do not want to waste my gil on my own house. I'll buy a room inside of a house but I would never spend 5mil on something that transient

[Kage]

About that hoax thing, I posted the discussion on tumblr and some other people already met that GM.

I believe the point of the person who cry it might be a hoax is saying that if you color /echo to give a certain color, he already know the name of a GM, then someone can do

/echo [GM]Gm ____ >>

/echo >>[GM]Gm ____

 

I have not tried it out to see what happens.

 

I have lost my own thread on the official forums before though

 

Edit: 10/26/15: I thought it was blatant that it was most likely a hoax. Changing the color of /echo and doing something similar to what I wrote above does work. It will look like someone sending those PMs. This is why GMs will ask you for proof of /tells via World, Time, Timezone as they will look through the logs.

[Olofantur]

Since interaction began we've proved that if you give someone a chance to be a massive jerk, they will be a massive jerk nine times out of ten.

 

Small fix.

 

But yeah, i've been in the unfortunate position of having GM's investigate a transaction when a friend disbanded their FC house and then I gave them the gil to rebuy it personally. They assumed some real money transaction had happened and I imagine that is what they assumed here as well.

[Blue]

Now some might argue that, if the game had a built-in refund system, people would not force other players to pay them to leave a plot. But then comes again the fact that housing is an intended gil-sink. So no, there will never be a refund system from the game, and I honestly feel that circumvent this nature by taking the gil of other players is unethical, as well as unfair. If the game made you pay 6M for your house, I don't see why I should pay 21M for it instead, just because I came after you.

 

Building a system based on the expected altruism of people on the internet is a system designed from the ground up to fail miserably. Since the dawn of digital interaction we've proved that if you give someone on the internet a chance to be a massive jerk, they will be a massive jerk nine times out of ten. Intention doesn't mean jack squat if you don't implement the means to enforce that intention. If SE is honestly surprised that people took advantage of a glaring loophole in the housing system, I would question just how based in reality Yoshi-P's housing team really is.

 

Right, and we have seen that in how they designed wedding bangles. SE allowed us to trade bangles with the idea that a player could buy a bangle and use it to surprise and propose the partner, and nothing more. And what came from that? People sell bangles, because the trading mechanic allows it. It's basically legal RMTing, as well as the rare dyes.

 

SE designed both housing and those items with innocent expectations, but it didn't go as they expected. And the fault again is that demand is higher than the offer, because housing servers are nowhere enough to meet the demand, and thus people take advantage of it by making others pay.

 

It may take some effort to find the will to relinquish a house for free, or the will to not own more than one plot on your account, but it can be done. I for one, not only don't sell my plot, bangles, dyes, nor own more than one house on my account. I even flat out boicot personal housing (for various reasons that range from: it's too small, too expensive, poorly designed, and I don't like the idea of a single player occupying a plot that could be used by a plurality of players such as a Free Company instead) by sticking just to our FC house (FC houses are much better anyway, with the rooms they are much bigger than any personal house will ever be, especially if you take the effort to grind alts to make them build more rooms in it!). All it takes is a bit of good heart.

[SessionZero]

Right, and we have seen that in how they designed wedding bangles. SE allowed us to trade bangles with the idea that a player could buy a bangle and use it to surprise and propose the partner, and nothing more. And what came from that? People sell bangles, because the trading mechanic allows it. It's basically legal RMTing, as well as the rare dyes.

 

SE designed both housing and those items with innocent expectations, but it didn't go as they expected. And the fault again is that demand is higher than the offer, because housing servers are nowhere enough to meet the demand, and thus people take advantage of it by making others pay.

 

It may take some effort to find the will to relinquish a house for free, or the will to not own more than one plot on your account, but it can be done. I for one, not only don't sell my plot, bangles, dyes, nor own more than one house on my account. I even flat out boicot personal housing by sticking just to our FC house (FC houses are much better anyway, with the rooms they are much bigger than any personal house will ever be, especially if you take the effort to grind alts to make them build more rooms in it!). All it takes is a bit of good heart.

 

I completely agree that it doesn't take much effort to play fair, and I share your wish that less people would be dirtbags about it. I'm just saying, if SE truly believed their players wouldn't take advantage of every loophole they could find, that's frankly astonishing. 

 

When the creator of Ultima Online visited his own creation to meet with his game's players, the first thing they tried to do was kill the shit out of him, just to see if they could. There's a precedent for MMO players being impossibly evil, and there has been for years.

[Blue]

Right, and we have seen that in how they designed wedding bangles. SE allowed us to trade bangles with the idea that a player could buy a bangle and use it to surprise and propose the partner, and nothing more. And what came from that? People sell bangles, because the trading mechanic allows it. It's basically legal RMTing, as well as the rare dyes.

 

SE designed both housing and those items with innocent expectations, but it didn't go as they expected. And the fault again is that demand is higher than the offer, because housing servers are nowhere enough to meet the demand, and thus people take advantage of it by making others pay.

 

It may take some effort to find the will to relinquish a house for free, or the will to not own more than one plot on your account, but it can be done. I for one, not only don't sell my plot, bangles, dyes, nor own more than one house on my account. I even flat out boicot personal housing by sticking just to our FC house (FC houses are much better anyway, with the rooms they are much bigger than any personal house will ever be, especially if you take the effort to grind alts to make them build more rooms in it!). All it takes is a bit of good heart.

 

I completely agree that it doesn't take much effort to play fair, and I share your wish that less people would be dirtbags about it. I'm just saying, if SE truly believed their players wouldn't take advantage of every loophole they could find, that's frankly astonishing. 

 

When the creator of Ultima Online visited his own creation to meet with his game's players, the first thing they tried to do was kill the shit out of him, just to see if they could. There's a precedent for MMO players being impossibly evil, and there has been for years.

 

Right, I remember that story. The sad thing is that I believe most of these people are not even jerks, but do it because others do it.

 

It's like the train of thought of "Why bother with recycling trash? For every plastic bottle I carefully store in a recycle bin, 5 other people will not do it." And it's sadly a very common mentality.

 

To me, other people being dirtbags is not a good excuse to be a dirtbag myself. I thank how I was raised for being like this, and I honestly wish more people had the same teachings I've had on the matter of altruism and sharing.

 

Now to sit and wait to see how many are going to exploit "Housing Sharing" to put their houses for rent in 3.1 or whenever that will be implemented. I expect to see a lot of shit like "Pay me 50k a month and I'll keep you in the list of people who can use my house."

[Eses Fafa]

I'm not entirely sure that GM knew what he was talking about to be honest. I'm pretty familiar with being in customer service on the phone and being ABSOLUTELY clueless, so sometimes the best option for staff members is to fall on the script and become a broken record. He's a GM, but I doubt he actually knew all of the terms and conditions and assumed player-based trading that didn't involve the UI was illegal.

It's quite unlikely you'll be caught unless personally reported, but this is what SE brought upon themselves by failing to meet player demand.

The devs can't POSSIBLY believe themselves to be in the right in this situation for something that's their fault and for all we know, that GM was perhaps even talking out of his arse. Methinks I'll give the current T+C a check and bring an update.

[Eses Fafa]

Aaand I'm back.

 

Nope.

 

Didn't know jack.

I've checked the Prohibited Actions section and the User agreement, but this is all from 2013 before housing was a thing. From what I've seen, they like to emphasise that RMT is a no-no, but using gil as the sole mediator in a trade of virtual items is not against the rules. Chock that one up to human error, I'm afraid.

[Kage]

After the whole debacle with RareX trolling people...

 

Users on reddit have been reporting being warned for THE TROLL PFs and actual individual WTS housing/plots.

 

Thread on the official forums  still on-going with no Head GM in sight but this looks pretty definitive.

 

 

But also note that GMs are inconsistent