Regarding Gelmorran Ruins...

[LadyRochester]

We are aware that the Gelmorran civilization flourished for thousands of years after The War of Magi, when mankind was driven underground by angry Elementals.

 

Now, considering the differences between wildwood and duskwight, we know that the ruins have been abandoned for long enough by the former so that genetic mutations were allowed to happen over the span of generations.

That said, how large is Gelmorra, exactly? 

How far does it extend underneath the shroud?

 

Is it this labyrinth of undeground tunnels that extend throughout the Shroud and Gridania, or is the space more limited? I am extremely curious.

 

 

For more info, check out the official wiki page for Gelmorra.

[Valence]

By the very description of the Tam-Tara for example, it is clear enough that it's actually part of the Gelmorran ruins, here, specifically tailored for the rich and their burial site. Considering the sheer size of that specific part, I would assume that yes, Gelmorran subterranean tunnels are HUGE.

 

It is confirmed by the various places described in your link, and I assume that considering that the entrance of all those places are literally scattered around the Shroud (Tam tara in central, Toto-Rak in South, Mun-Tuy between South and East, open archaeological ruins in the South...), I think it's fair to assume that since gelmorrans couldn't exactly exit them to go wander happily in the forest at the time, they were all interconnected.

 

Now then, the only place we know of are mostly located around central/south Shroud, so it might be a hint that the Gelmorran civilization was mostly located here, but of that, we can't be totally sure and that's also the beauty of it: you don't exactly know to which depths and lenght those tunnels run...

 

Especially since there are also the Gelmorran ruins in the North Shroud as well, unless those are just Amdapori remains. So... Yeah, I would say, they extend pretty much everywhere.

 

You might find that video interesting as well, and the few speculative theories in it, although it's quite old.

[Syranelle Ironleaf]

How far does it extend underneath the shroud?

 

Is it this labyrinth of undeground tunnels that extend throughout the Shroud and Gridania, or is the space more limited? I am extremely curious.

 

 

For more info, check out the official wiki page for Gelmorra.

 

Gelmorra, insofar as we've seen in-game, is fairly large.  

 

Just given what we know, it spans the majority of the Black Shroud.  There are clearly marked "Gelmorran Ruins" in the North Shroud near Fallgourd Float.  Tam-Tara Deepcroft in the Central Shroud is also Gelmorran, as are The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak and Issom-Har in the South Shroud.  Consider, also, the upcoming Deep Dungeon, Palace of the Dead, which is several layers deep though I'm not sure yet which part of the Shroud it will be in.  

 

My own research doesn't seem to suggest that it extends beyond the Shroud -- but that doesn't mean that it can't or doesn't.  There used to be a pretty decent Lore Bomb on Tumblr with a lot of Duskwight tidbits, but the user seems to have discontinued the blog.  

 

I've reposted it here, if you'd like to review it.  

[Shoshopu]

Consider, also, the upcoming Deep Dungeon, Palace of the Dead, which is several layers deep though I'm not sure yet which part of the Shroud it will be in.

 

They've said the Palace of the Dead starts from Issom-Har, but that was an old residential district I think? So it probably branches off from Issom-Har and goes somewhere else.

 

Thanks a lot for that tumblr link! That was super informative! I have a question of my own... Was Gelmorra so long ago that no elezen families would be able to trace their heritage back to Gelmorra? Or is that just, possibly, a Padjal thing only? Given that quote about how all the above ground Gelmorran ruins are being taken down so they don't "mar" the landscape, it seems like modern Gridanians have a rather negative view of Glemorra, maybe because it's something those Nasty Duskwights are interested in. So what would society think of an elezen family that was open/proud of their Gelmorran heritage?

[Valence]

From what I understood from those quotes, it's actually not to piss the elementals off. But... Between what the Hearers say, and what really is, who knows, right.

[Syranelle Ironleaf]

You're quite welcome!  As for your question, given what we know and to quote from that Tumblr post:

 

“For half a thousand years, the ruins of Gelmorra have served as a necropolis, but the Calamity has Gridanians eyeing the underground city and murmuring about a new kind of curb appeal-curbing the chances of being flattened by a meteor, to be exact. Large slabs are sought for a little renovation.” (Location, Location, mining leve issued by Rolandaix de Nevelle)

 

So, at best we can infer from this that Gelmorra existed at least five hundred years ago, but that the recent Calamity (5-6 years ago now?) had unearthed all these ruins.  While it might be too much to say your character lived there, I'm sure -- if ancestry could be traced back that far -- that one could claim a Gelmorran heritage.

 

Ishgard has existed for 1000+ years (hi, Dragonsong War) so it may be possible that there is such information available through the Scholasticate there, though I believe the library is closely-guarded, so gaining access to said information may or may not be readily available.  So, it seems plausible to me that an Ishgardian-born Duskwight would have better luck with the ideal that you're going for.  (And possibly give them a basis for their belief if they're of a minor noble house in Ishgard.)  That's purely my own conjecture, though, to do with as you like (or not.)  

[Grenat Querroux]

So' date=' at best we can infer from this that Gelmorra existed [i']at least[/i] five hundred years ago, but that the recent Calamity (5-6 years ago now?) had unearthed all these ruins.  While it might be too much to say your character lived there, I'm sure -- if ancestry could be traced back that far -- that one could claim a Gelmorran heritage.

 

Although I cannot find the primary source, there seems to be a consensus among the various lore wikis that the Sixth Umbral Era (the great flood) happened about 1500 years ago. Since we know that the flood was a direct punishment for the misuse of magic in Fifth Astral, it is probably reasonable to assume that the Elementals would not permit surface settlement after the waters settled, and subterranean civilisation flourished under the Black Shroud. Which gives us a very rough idea of the interval of time (1500-500 y.a.) when the city would have been built and flourished. I had always assumed that the civilisation collapsed and Gelmorra had fallen into misuse once the early Padjali/conjurer types convinced the Elementals to allow the Elezen back up to the forest.

 

Wouldn't be long enough for genetic divergence in our boring real world, but who really cares about that.

 

So, I agree it'd be fair to claim Gelmorran descent, it wasn't that long ago, as long as one keeps a light touch and doesn't over-describe the traditions, etc., that come with it. Tinkering with the NPC clan my own character came out of, I'd assumed they were a bunch of families at the periphery of the Gelmorran civilisation (not city itself) who took over a small network of caverns during the chaos of the surface return five centuries ago and never looked back.

 

I found the old Duskwight Discussion thread here on the site quite useful when thinking about these things.

[Syranelle Ironleaf]

Tinkering with the NPC clan my own character came out of, I'd assumed they were a bunch of families at the periphery of the Gelmorran civilisation (not city itself) who took over a small network of caverns during the chaos of the surface return five centuries ago and never looked back.

 

This is pretty much how I play it off as well.  Syranelle grew up in a sort of off-shoot cavern system from Gelmorra and her survival colony was driven to the surface by the Calamity, where they learned to survive there and all that.  So they have Gelmorran ancestry, since they never came topside, but they aren't directly from Gelmorra.

[Yssen]

In point of fact, there were no Duskwights before Gelmorra and no real distinction made between the two tribes until after the pact and fall. Duskwight seems to be a catch all term for those Elezen that chose not to live on the surface under the yoke of the Elementals. This seems to have gone on for a while until Gridania sacked Gelmorra and scattered the Duskies. In short, the separation was caused by the pact, and the hateful schism caused by the attack at some point later. Duskies scattered and went everywhere as refugees, but all roads lead back to Gelmorra as far as lineage in a way back past fashion.

[Sounsyy]

I've made a few posts on the topic before, so I'm gonna pull from those and try to compile what I've got in one place on the RPC.

 

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Gelmorra

 

Lore behind Gelmorra suggests it was founded circa the Year 400-500 of the Sixth Astral Era by Elezen and Hyur seeking refuge from the wrath of the Elementals of Tinolqa and the Ixal, who at the time along with the Sylphs, held dominion over the Shroud. For hundreds of years they entreated the elementals to allow them access to the Wood, but were repeatedly denied, for the elementals still held the atrocities of the War of the Magi fresh in their memories. Eventually, the moogles, who were originally distrustful of man, taught the Gelmorrans Conjury, so that they could communicate effectively with the elementals. From this came the Pact of Gelmorra, which allowed mankind to emerge from the subterranean city-state and found Gridania. There were a group of Elezen who did not wish to leave and live under the whim of the elementals, and these were the Duskwight. But the Wildwood of Gridania sacked the old city-state of Gelmorra and took from the Duskwight their home. Now, only ruins of Gelmorra remain scattered about the Twelveswood.

 

You can find several ruins in the current version, including Issom-Har in South Shroud, the ruins in North Shroud, Amberscale Rock in Central, as well as Mun-Toy, Tam-Tara, and Toto-Rak. According to a Quarrymill levequest from a very biased Conjurer named Charline, all above-ground ruins of Gelmorra are to be destroyed at the elemental’s behest, but this seems suspect at best considering how heavily Gelmorran ruins feature in the Wood.

 

Of overgrown traces of Gelmorra' date=' few remain to disturb the order of the forest, yet occasional ruins are still found that must needs be removed. What is under the forest may stay, but our laws decree that no stone of Gelmorra mar the home of the elementals.[/quote']

 

In 1.0, there used to be Gelmorran structures made of amber, many of which have seemingly been demolished since. These tonberry-like statues are not actually tonberries, according to Fernehalwes, but they do establish that Amberscale Rock, now a sacred Gridanian relic, is in fact Gelmorran in origin.

 

 

Q: Version 1.0, way back, the old Gelmorran ruins had these little statues made out of the same stuff as Amberscale Rock. What were those? They looked kinda like Tonberries…

 

MCKF: They were not tonberries. That’s all we can say.

 

What was with Gelmorra’s obsession with amber architecture? I can only hazard a guess - that amber dispels enchantments, potentially even elemental ones.

 

Oh' date=' and do remember to rub the soulstone against a sufficiently large concentration of amber, say, Amberscale Rock in the Central Shroud. Short of petitioning a mage versed in golem magicks, that is the only way I know to dispel the enchantments woven into a true heart.[/quote']

 

 

Here’s more Gelmorra lore quotes I found, even a particularly interesting one from Millith Ironheart, who was investigating Issom-Har before Irielle and Rolandaix de Nevelle.

 

Do you know of the subterranean city called Gelmorra? It existed long before Gridania was founded' date=' back when man feared the wrath of the elementals and lived in the shadow of the Ixal. Even now, remnants of that forgotten civilization lie deep beneath the Black Shroud, waiting to be discovered. And that is precisely what I mean to do.[/quote']

 

Q: How did the Gelmorran civilization actually come to an end?

 

A: This is a really good question and something that we haven't touched upon. In the lore book we pretty much say that here's what happened, here's when it ended, kind of, when people left, but we never talked about that process. Why did it end? If half of the Elezen are still down there, the ones who became the Duskwights, why didn't they just stay down there? So how did that civilization end?

 

First off, Gelmorra worked. When the elementals first told the Elezen and the Hyur who resided in the Twelveswood "you need to get out now", they all went underground and created the Gelmorran civilization. That was created not just by the Elezen and not just by the Hyur, it was a combination of both of their knowledge. Because they worked together they were able to create this civilization and because they worked together it worked. Many many years later when the elementals had second thoughts, "okay you guys have shown us that you can live peacefully amongst nature you can come out now." The Hyur were the first to leave. Then the Elezen who were happy to go back out into nature where they used to live. But, by that time for a large population that had become their home, and the Elezen having a lot of pride said "no, this is our home. The elementals already kicked us out once, we made this, this is our home. We want to stay here."

 

They felt betrayed by their Elezen brethren and the Hyur that had helped them create the city. Being very prideful of their city and their civilization, they stuck around and tried to keep things running. But you had a giant city underground that needed pretty much everyone in it to keep it running. But when 75% of the population leaves, things start to decay. They tried their hardest, but things started to break down. Things couldn't be fixed. They couldn't make new things. Not enough people were there to tend to the Mun-tuy farms so they started running low on food. Even though they wanted to stay, they were forced out. They still blame that on the Wildwood Elezen and the Hyur because if they hadn't left they still would've had their civilization. The loss of their civilization wasn't instant, it happened over many generations, and it was something that really drove the Duskwights to hate the Wildwoods. The Wildwoods couldn't understand why they were hated, and that's where all of the "subtle" conflict between those two clans within the same race comes from.

 

Four hundred summers removed from the great deluge, Eorzea’s population finally begins to experience a resurgence. Immigrants from islands beyond the Bloodbrine Sea, as well as the eastern continents of Othard and Ilsabard arrive in Aldenard in droves. Three great migratory waves of Hyur also inflict irreversible change on Eorzea’s population distribution.

 

Racial tension hits its peak at this time, with individual races seen gravitating to certain city-states to escape persecution - the Elezen to Ishgard in the highlands of Coerthas; the Lalafell to Belah'dia in the deserts of Thanalan; and the Roegadyn to Limsa Lominsa on the island of Vylbrand. However, even this was not without its problems. It is only a matter of years before clan-based infighting between the Plainsfolk and Dunesfolk Lalafell result in the fall of Belah'dia and its bifurcation into two new city-states, Ul'dah and Sil'dih.

 

That is not to say, however, that the period was devoid of racial harmony. Their banishment from the Twelveswood by the spirits of the forest works to strengthen the bonds between the Hyur and Elezen living in the Black Shroud, ultimately leading to their joint establishment of the underground city of Gelmorra.

 

For the next several hundred years, the city-states exhibit steady progress as they grow and gain power. When they seek to expand their claim on surrounding lands, however, new complications arise. Territorial feuds between neighbors lead to heightened tensions in the outlands. Indigenous beast tribes such as the kobolds and the Ixal, infuriated with those whom they perceive as invaders, begin to rise in defiance, despoiling the land in protest. Unable to put aside racial differences, Ul'dah and Sil'dih wage their petty war until neither side can remember why they fought at all.

 

After many long years of developing the art, the people of Gelmorra finally succeed in using conjury to achieve communion with the spirits of the Twelveswood, and convince the elementals to grant them residence in the forest. It is also at this time that the spirits, angered by the violent actions of the Ixal, send the tribe into exile beyond the Black Shroud’s protective barrier - the Hedge. Free to emerge from their underground refuge, and rid of the troublesome Ixal, the people of Gelmorra establish a new city-state, Gridania.

 

Our forebearers were once strangers in the Twelveswood. Fearful of the Greenwrath they hid themselves in the dark recesses of the earth. Yet they dreamed of basking in the dappled sunlight of the forest. Through great effort' date=' they proved their worth to the elementals, and were granted a place beneath the boughs. So it was that Gridania was born, some five centuries ago. Working hand in hand, the Hyur and the Elezen settlers sowed the seeds of our civilization. And soon they were joined by folk of all races.[/quote']

 

Some 550 years in the past, the Ixal chose the forest of Tinolqa as their homeland. The stories say they built their nests in its trees, and, spreading their wings to the wind, were able to soar among the branches. Even in this ancient time, the Ixal, feeling kinship with the creatures of the sky, revered Garuda as the Empress of Birds. During this age of prosperity the feathered beastmen flourished and multiplied, overflowing the borders of their territory. Their unchecked growth, however, angered the elementals, and the Ixal were cast out of the forest. The exiled birdmen, in search of a new place to roost, migrated en masse to the great canyon known as Xelphatol.

 

But the trials of the Ixal did not end with the loss of their home. Inexplicably, the young that hatched in the land of Xelphatol were born without certain feathers they needed to catch the wind. As generations came and went, the Ixal lost their ability to fly completely. All that remained to them was an insatiable hunger for the sky. The birdmen's invention of the dirigible 150 years ago is most like the culmination of this tragic history and their undiminished yearning to fly.

 

Emboldened by magic' date=' man went on to reach the zenith of glory. But his hunger knew no bounds. Over time, even they who donned the white began perverting their powers for the sake of self-gain, and in this single-minded pursuit scrupled not to sully the sanctity of the Twelveswood. In his pride and avarice, man brought down the wrath of the elementals upon himself. A great deluge was sent to cleanse the land of his wicked presence, in the wake of which the forest rose to swallow up all that was not washed away. Thus did the Six Umbral Era begin...or so it is told.[/quote']

 

The survivors - what few there were - banded together. Vowing never again to repeat their mistake, white and black magic were declared forbidden arts, never to be practiced again. The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals.

 

Ages passed, until five centuries ago, the Elementals at long last welcomed people back into the forest. So the nation of Gridania was founded, and my people - the Padjal - came into being, to serve as mediators between Elementals and those who would reside in their forest home. It is from the Elementals themselves that we inherited white magic.

 

It is the moogles who first taught the language of the elementals to man.

It was thanks to their efforts that some learned to hear the elementals, and understand them, as we do now. Even so, it requires arduous training to nurture the gift.

 

That the moogles are our friends and allies is a fact all Gridanian younglings are raised to know. The relationship, however, has not always been one of amity. It was in the age of Gelmorra, back when the elementals did not suffer our presence in the Twelveswood, that the first contact between man and moogle took place. In the beginning, the moogles saw our ancestors as naught but an odious plague, whose existence served only to wake the elementals’ wrath.

 

But through great effort, our forbears eventually succeeded in communing with the elementals, and were permitted to abide in the Twelveswood. And with the elementals’ acceptance came the moogles’ grudging respect—a respect which grew into understanding and, over time, friendship. The moogles have since stood staunchly by our side, helping us to further our intimacy with the forest and its mysteries. Without their wisdom and guidance, I daresay Gridania would not have flourished into the great nation it is today.

 

Our ancestors once lived in fear of the elementals, concealing themselves within caverns that they might elude the wrath of the forest. This was in the age of Gelmorra, the subterranean city that was home to the first folk who dared set foot in the Twelveswood. Over time and through unceasing effort, the art of conjury was refined, and our cave-dwelling forebears finally succeeded in communing with the elementals. So it was that man was permitted to abide beneath the canopy of the forest, rather than within the dark of the earth.

 

Since that time, it was commonly believed that man called the Twelveswood home only at the elementals’ sufferance. However, the Elder Seedseer revealed in her speech that we are as much part of the forest as the grass and the trees. This revelation fell like a thunderbolt for most forestborn. But then the implications of the message sank in, and shock gave way to inner peace and a heightened sense of empowerment. To see the expressions of those present, one would think they had just been freed of their shackles.

 

For half a thousand years, the ruins of Gelmorra have served as a necropolis, but the Calamity has Gridanians eyeing the underground city and murmuring about a new kind of curb appeal - curbing the chances of being flattened by a meteor, to be exact. Large slabs are sought for a little renovation.

 

The enormous hole you see before you' date=' my friend, is the result of a great rock which fell from the sky five summers past. The impact exposed the ruins hidden underneath the surface. We have taken it upon ourselvees to study these ancient ruins. I do not exaggerate when I say that every day brings us fascinating, exciting discoveries.[/quote']

 

Oh, the ruins you see down there are part of the ancient subterranean city known as Gelmorra. For Duskwight Elezen such as ourselves, it represents a valuable and unexpected opportunity to learn more about the settlement where our ancestors once dwelled.

 

I am all but convinced that we stand in what was once Gelmorra’s residential district. I must insist that you exercise caution whilst walking around this site. Many relics were expelled from the hole in the impacts years past. With but one careless step' date=' you could crush underfoot Duskwight artifacts of untold significance.[/quote']

 

In the countless generations since the fall of Gelmorra, the Twelveswood has reclaimed much of the ancient city, so to uncover the civilization's lost secrets, a little digging is ofttimes necessary. The land around Issom-Har is known to yield a variety of Gelmorran artifacts such as coins and potsherds which have become tangled in the roots of giant trees. While of no value to most, these relics of a past age are the subject of my ongoing studies into Gridania's history, and I will pay a fair price for any items you may find.

 

My work here is far from done, but this discovery brings me one tantalizing step closer to realizing my dream; the restoration of these ruins, and their reestablishment as a settlement for the Duskwight Elezen. Gridanians have long perceived my people as outcasts and brigands, yet if we Duskwight can return a measure of prosperity to this fallen city, we would no longer need to resort to common theft or banditry in order to make ends meet. Imagine it!

 

Chirurgeons of the fallen city of Gelmorra once used chigoes to leech the dark humours of the infirm until it was realized the patients were contracting additional maladies as a result of the treatment.

 

Since its establishment during Gelmorran times' date=' this subterranean crypt has been used for generations as a final resting place for the remains of rulers and nobles.[/quote']

 

According to Fernehalwes’ Padjal Naming Conventions, Padjal existed during the latter years of Gelmorra prior to Gridania’s founding, likely during the transition period between forsaking Gelmorra and building Gridania (using rock from subterranean Gelmorra).

 

Quarrymill

Once a deal had been struck between the Gelmorrans and the Elementals allowing their return to the forest surface, the Elezen began unearthing large quantities of boulders to build the foundations of their new city, Gridania. The waterwheels of Quarrymill were raised to power the hammers which rendered the massive stones into workable blocks.

 

I’m referencing the Padjal families Inik and Mena, and the Ak-Inik and Ak-Mena enemies from the Tam-Tara dungeon. Fernehalwes writes that “Ak” is the honorific prefix attached to a deceased member of a house. Going back to the earlier quote that Gelmorrans had nobility, its possible that the Gelmorrans, like the Gridanians, held the Padjal and Conjurers/Hearers in general in very high esteem.

 

Interestingly, of the nine Padjali families we know of (Senna, Yan, Pesi, Por, Inik, Mena, Cant, Kotor, and Nene) only Cant has a shade of skin that appears Duskwight, though all known Padjal are Hyuran, just with pointy ears and horns.

 

世界観的な観点について

幻術という魔法体系はグリダニア（および、その前身であるゲルモラ）で、発展してきたものになります。そのどちらの都市においても、ノフィカを守護神として、特に大切に扱ってきました。そのため、これらのアビリティにノフィカを示す語を使用しております。

For spell type of conjurer evolved from Gridania (and previous Gelmora?) Either city had Nophica as their guardian and took very good care of them. For that reason these abilities uses word that points to Nophica (goddess)

 

Rusty old translation, but it appears Gelmorra also worshiped Nophica as their matron deity. Really old 1.0 lore that seems to be corroborated by the upcoming Palace of the Dead:

 

 

The Twelveswood is a vast forest set aside just for the elementals by the Matron' date=' Nophica. It was here long before we came, and will remain long after we are gone. You are their guest, and may tread only where allowed. Adventurers are not permitted beyond the hunting grounds. See to it your feet do not stray.[/quote']

 

 

There's also a few references to Gelmorra and the subterranean lifestyle that began the Duskwight in the Duskwight lore I've gathered below:

 

Ultimately' date=' the Elezen diverged into two clans which exist today. The Wildwood Elezen took to the forests in their ongoing fight to protect their homeland against the encroaching Hyur, while the Duskwight Elezen withdrew to caves and subterrane opting instead to avoid all contact with any but their own.[/quote']

 

For the past several centuries' date=' the Duskwight Elezen have lived in the woodland caverns of Eorzea. These cave-dwelling Elezen are the descendants of a branch that split from the main Wildwood clan during the founding of Gridania. The Duskwight despise the “shackles” of urban life, and it is not uncommon for this reclusive people to avoid the city-states altogether.[/quote']

 

Centuries ago, a number of Elezen sought out a life of peace and seclusion in the depths of Eorzea’s caves and caverns. Today, they are called the Duskwight, though to their Wildwood cousins they are known simply as the “Greys,” after their preference of darkness and stone. As part of their physical adaptation, the Duskwight have developed an acute sense of hearing, capable of detecting the faintest of sounds. This natural gift grants them uncanny awareness, which many have put to exemplary use in the field of hand-to-hand combat.

 

The cave-dwelling ways of the Duskwight persist today, with some among them turning to robbery and pillaging to survive, earning them the scorn of their woodland relatives. There are few differences between the genders, but Duskwight males are often regarded as being more stern and authoritative of the two, while females are often regarded as the more passionate and unyielding of the two.

 

The Duskwight are cousins to us Wildwood, and the same blood of the first Elezen courses through both our veins. We are not entirely unlike in appearance, but generations spent in the darkness of caves have created rift enough between our ways of life.

 

Mind you, I bear their kind no ill will. I simply keep the records. And the records state that the Duskwight are generally believed to be...shall we say, unruly, and stubborn. Many turn to thievery and banditry to survive, and are seen as a disgrace to the nobility espoused by the Wildwood. Should you encounter any beyond a city's boundaries, you had best be wary.

 

 

Gelmorra's projected territory was quite expansive and possibly even larger than what the few remaining Gelmorran ruins suggest. I snagged a region map off google and did a little editing, circling in known Gelmorran ruins in green and drawing green lines across what we believe might logically have been called their territory.

 

 

The upcoming Palace of the Dead also has this little tidbit of lore:

 

In the subterranean city of Gelmorra' date=' deep within a forgotten corner of Issom-Har, stout-hearted explorers have uncovered the entrance to a labyrinthine dungeon. Those who set foot inside its maddening halls find their vigor drained by an irresistible fog of innervation, and repeated excursions have failed to map its seemingly inconstant architecture. After hearing chilling accounts of spectral denizens, locals took to whispering of a "Palace of the Dead," and the Wood Wailers now seek the assistance of adventurers in laying bare its haunted secrets...[/quote']

 

 

One last little fun thing to note, is that the Gridanian flag - twin serpents wrapped about a lotus, is actually a Gelmorran symbol.

 

Do you see the Gridanian standard? The entwined serpents represent the unity between Hyur and Elezen. An elegant symbol' date=' do you not agree?[/quote']

 

 

Now look really closely behind the Cultist Rosary in Tam-Tara:

 

Or at the ground in Tam-Tara HM...

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

 

EDIT: For fun, I'm throwing in a quick Gelmorran timeline.

 

c.1600 Y/A - The Great Flood (6th Umbral Calamity) Elementals flood the world and expand the Twelveswood around Amdapor and ban the races of man from entry.

c.1100 Y/A - Elezen and later, Hyur, build the underground city of Gelmorra beneath Tinolqa.

c.1000 Y/A - Gelmorra expands. Elezen who've given up the desire to live among the Wood burrow deeper while those still hopeful live near the surface. The Clan division likely begins here.

c.550 Y/A - The Ixal claim Tinolqa as their own and begin harrying the Gelmorrans. The moogles begin teaching Conjury to the Gelmorrans to parley with the elementals.

c.500 Y/A - The first Padjal are born and the children of the Wood lead the Wildwood to found Gridania. The Pact of Gelmorra is agreed upon. Duskwights refuse to agree to the Pact and return to Gelmorra. Clan prejudice turns to violence and hatred.

Estimated 450 Y/A - The Gridanians bury Gelmorra and displace the Duskwights. Many Duskwights leave the Shroud altogether. Somewhere around this time period the Ixal are banished from Tinolqa. Jealous of the Gridanians, the Ixal begin attacking the new city-state.

c.5 Y/A - Ruins, long portrayed as being taboo or cursed to most Forestborn, are discovered by explorers, hunters, and Outsiders. Later, the Calamity uncovers buried remains of underground Gelmorra.

[Grenat Querroux]

Thanks, Sounsyy. Impressively exhaustive as always and contains plenty of nuance I had missed. The bit about the moogles mediating the rapprochement is especially cool - they seem to like fixing things almost as much as Ascians like to break them. As is the notion of amber dispelling enchantment and perhaps acting as a talisman against Elemental influence.

 

Do you have any more details on the sacking of Gelmorra by the Wildwoods specifically? I had (erroneously, apparently) thought that the city simply decayed/collapsed as a natural result of the mass exodus to the surface. Its active destruction seems like the kind of event that would wedge itself pretty firmly in the Duskwight historical memory, even for our various vague lineages/peripheral clans.

[Sounsyy]

Do you have any more details on the sacking of Gelmorra by the Wildwoods specifically? I had (erroneously, apparently) thought that the city simply decayed/collapsed as a natural result of the mass exodus to the surface. Its active destruction seems like the kind of event that would wedge itself pretty firmly in the Duskwight historical memory, even for our various vague lineages/peripheral clans.

 

The burial of the subterranean city-state was a bit of information gleaned from @Gelmorra's talk with Fernehalwes at (I want to say) E3 several years back now. Unfortunately, there was no quotation or official follow-up, so much of the accuracy is suspect, but it's all we have at the moment. As Gelmorra deleted her blog, unfortunately the interview has been lost, but the main points from memory were:

 

-Sylphs were the first creatures to be allowed access to the Wood.

-Duskwights no longer had any desire to live above-ground and instead buried deeper.

-Elementals were okay with this. Gridanians considered it a huge slap in the face.

-Gridanians attempted to bury Gelmorra and drive out the Duskwight.

-Many Duskwights left the Shroud altogether and moved to other city-states, namely Ishgard, as they faced less prejudice there.

 

I'll be heading out to this year's fanfest and I'm bringing a list of lore questions if I can corner Fernehalwes. Gelmorra is on my list, so hopefully please look forward to it. Palace of the Dead is probably our best shot at any more Gelmorra lore in the meantime.

[Valence]

-Gridanians attempted to bury Gelmorra and drive out the Duskwight.

 

As much as we can of course speculate over the reasons that made them doing so, that sounds like very over the top and drastic measures just in the name of "honour", so I have to admit that it made me curious on what pushed Gridanians to do that. That's almost a genocide in itself.

[LiadansWhisper]

-Gridanians attempted to bury Gelmorra and drive out the Duskwight.

 

As much as we can of course speculate over the reasons that made them doing so, that sounds like very over the top and drastic measures just in the name of "honour", so I have to admit that it made me curious on what pushed Gridanians to do that. That's almost a genocide in itself.

 

Those not under the Pact are not subject to its strictures. However, the damage those not of the Pact cause is something those who ARE subject to the Pact must deal with. i.e. they can cause a Green Wrath, but they don't have to clean it up - the Gridanians do.

[Valence]

That doesn't make any sense to me. Gelmorans lived totally fine underground for centuries without having to deal with elementals, that only care about what happens on the surface.

 

I'm not necessarily saying that it's not possible that the new Pact they did pushed them to extremes though, but still very curious about the actual reasons.

[Kilieit]

The Gelmorrans lived fine underground for so long because the Elementals could rage up above all they liked, Gelmorra was outside of their jurisdiction (and therefore outside of their power).

 

Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

 

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

 

Those who live in the surface Twelveswood will always be subject to Elemental-wrought consequences from the actions of those who visit the Twelveswood or who live at its fringes.

 

If your take-away from this is that Elementals are dicks, then you're not alone.

[Valence]

Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

 

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

 

Why would elementals be pissed about what happens underground? They are not harming the Shroud in any case, no interacting with it, except if they get out to poach (but that's the same shit than with wild Keeper clans and other poachers anyway).

[Yssen]

Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

 

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

 

Why would elementals be pissed about what happens underground? They are not harming the Shroud in any case, no interacting with it, except if they get out to poach (but that's the same shit than with wild Keeper clans and other poachers anyway).

 

There is a large assumption running around that The Elementals are benevolent, largely because the Grids say they are. The Grids are... less than reliable narrators/sources when it comes to this. When you look at a lot of the ways The Elementals work going all the way back to 1.0, you get very "IF YOUR GOD TELLS YOU TO BURN CHILDREN, THEN IT IS EVIL!" vibe.

[Kilieit]

Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

 

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

 

Why would elementals be pissed about what happens underground? They are not harming the Shroud in any case, no interacting with it, except if they get out to poach (but that's the same shit than with wild Keeper clans and other poachers anyway).

 

You're assuming that the Elementals are

 

A) logical

 

B) reasonable

 

C) nice.

 

None of these have been demonstrated to be true. ;D

 

It's quite possible that they're pissed off at Gelmorra for existing in the Shroud but outside of their reach, for example. Or at specific Gelmorrans for being the offspring of someone who cut down a tree once a thousand years ago; and, by association, everyone who's ever had physical contact with that family, or talked to them, or passed them in the street. Or just because they felt like it today.

 

Think "Fair Folk", not "benevolent forest gods".

[Shoshopu]

According to the lost interview Sounsyy is citing, the Elementals were actually okay with the Duskwights continuing to live underground.

 

If that's the case, you ask, why did the Wildwoods and Gridanians respond the way they did to the Duskwights' decision to remain underground? The simplest answer is probably just your garden variety racism. Racial/clan schisms probably already began while they were still underground, when the elezen who would go on to become the Duskwights started to dig deeper. Being allowed to come to the surface was just reason enough for those on the surface to act out on their racism.

 

I mean, in the real world people do horrible things to eachother all the time for absolutely no justifiable or logical reason, and come up with their own justifications for it, too. I don't see why Gridanians' racism needs to be explained by the Elementals. This is how Gridanians justify their actions today, of course, but that doesn't mean it's actually true.

[Kilieit]

I mean' date=' in the real world people do horrible things to eachother all the time for absolutely no justifiable or logical reason, and come up with their own justifications for it, too.[/quote']

 

True - I think it does say a lot about the Gridanians that they view the Elementals (unpredictable, amoral - not unmoral, amoral - and violent) as benevolent, and that listening to them is a good form of government. I can't remember the simile I opened the post to write, but in essence - it's easy for most people to do terrible things in the name of someone else, especially when that "someone else" is already fickle and violent and viewed as good despite being fickle and violent.

[Valence]

There is a large assumption running around that The Elementals are benevolent, largely because the Grids say they are. The Grids are... less than reliable narrators/sources when it comes to this. When you look at a lot of the ways The Elementals work going all the way back to 1.0, you get very "IF YOUR GOD TELLS YOU TO BURN CHILDREN, THEN IT IS EVIL!" vibe.

 

 

You're assuming that the Elementals are

 

A) logical

 

B) reasonable

 

C) nice.

 

None of these have been demonstrated to be true. ;D

 

It's quite possible that they're pissed off at Gelmorra for existing in the Shroud but outside of their reach, for example. Or at specific Gelmorrans for being the offspring of someone who cut down a tree once a thousand years ago; and, by association, everyone who's ever had physical contact with that family, or talked to them, or passed them in the street. Or just because they felt like it today.

 

Think "Fair Folk", not "benevolent forest gods".

 

Uh...

 

I'm not assuming anything. I just see absolutely no reason whatsoever for the elementals to be pissy about people underground. Or else they would have sent the Ixali to do their dirty work with the old Gelmorans just when they installed there, the same way that in your scenario they send Gridanian dealing with the duskwights that stayed behind.

 

I don't think that makes sense and the fact that they never sent the Ixali to genocide the whole race of Gelmorans before makes me more inclined to believe that the decision to wipe the Duskwights left behind was taken purely on the Gridanian side. As everyone knows, what Hearers say...

 

Actually, I would tend to say that telling that the Elementals sent the Gridanian do that, or told them to do so, would actually be pretty part of the realm of assumptions there. I don't recall having read anything in the lore to have stated that... But maybe I'm missing something?

 

In any case, that looks a lot more like a political decision rather than a mystical one born out of Greenwrath stuff or anything. I don't see elementals dealing into political decisions. Elementals always seemed to be pretty grey and neutral and only concerned and reacting against what threatens the balance of their wood/biosphere. No righteousness, no evilness whatsoever.

 

 

According to the lost interview Sounsyy is citing, the Elementals were actually okay with the Duskwights continuing to live underground.

 

If that's the case, you ask, why did the Wildwoods and Gridanians respond the way they did to the Duskwights' decision to remain underground? The simplest answer is probably just your garden variety racism. Racial/clan schisms probably already began while they were still underground, when the elezen who would go on to become the Duskwights started to dig deeper. Being allowed to come to the surface was just reason enough for those on the surface to act out on their racism.

 

I mean, in the real world people do horrible things to eachother all the time for absolutely no justifiable or logical reason, and come up with their own justifications for it, too. I don't see why Gridanians' racism needs to be explained by the Elementals. This is how Gridanians justify their actions today, of course, but that doesn't mean it's actually true.

 

While racism goes a long way explaining and leading to all sort of atrocities like genocides, I fear that's rarely enough of a reason to start such a wildfire in itself though. That's why I'm interested to know about it actually. It's probably based on a hefty dose of racism, but something, a spark, must have ignited the whole powderkeg here.

[LiadansWhisper]

There is a large assumption running around that The Elementals are benevolent, largely because the Grids say they are. The Grids are... less than reliable narrators/sources when it comes to this. When you look at a lot of the ways The Elementals work going all the way back to 1.0, you get very "IF YOUR GOD TELLS YOU TO BURN CHILDREN, THEN IT IS EVIL!" vibe.

 

The ultimate point being that the Elementals are not, never have been, and probably never will be, anything close to human. They don't have our morals, or values. The Gridanians talk about them as benevolent, and ascribe benevolent motives to them, and maybe they are. But people should never forget that the Elementals are extremely divorced from the morality of the mortal world.

 

Which is not to say that they're malicious. But, real person talk here - tornadoes are not "malicious," but they still kill the shit out of people.

[LiadansWhisper]

Uh...

 

I'm not assuming anything. I just see absolutely no reason whatsoever for the elementals to be pissy about people underground. Or else they would have sent the Ixali to do their dirty work with the old Gelmorans just when they installed there, the same way that in your scenario they send Gridanian dealing with the duskwights that stayed behind.

 

I don't think that makes sense and the fact that they never sent the Ixali to genocide the whole race of Gelmorans before makes me more inclined to believe that the decision to wipe the Duskwights left behind was taken purely on the Gridanian side. As everyone knows, what Hearers say...

 

Actually, I would tend to say that telling that the Elementals sent the Gridanian do that, or told them to do so, would actually be pretty part of the realm of assumptions there. I don't recall having read anything in the lore to have stated that... But maybe I'm missing something?

 

In any case, that looks a lot more like a political decision rather than a mystical one born out of Greenwrath stuff or anything. I don't see elementals dealing into political decisions. Elementals always seemed to be pretty grey and neutral and only concerned and reacting against what threatens the balance of their wood/biosphere. No righteousness, no evilness whatsoever.

 

They most likely didn't send the Ixali because the Ixali were already in their own shitpile for tearing the forest up in fits of rage. They actually got exiled for destroying swaths of the forest because they were mad there were mortals there.

[Morningstar1337]

But, real person talk here - tornadoes are not "malicious," but they still kill the shit out of people.

 

Tornadoes are also insentient. But I supposs this bring sup the (probably stupid) question of, are all the Elementals sentient, are merely semiconscious? I feel like with some exceptions that the more metaphysical something is the less sentience they show at least in the mortal plain (INB4 someone mentions Oha-Sok)

 

On a related note, Hydaelyn's being sentient has been confirmed from the get go since we were able to visit her plain of existence several times.