discussion CLEARLY MARKED STORY SPOILERS 4.1

[Warren Castille]

Two things that came to mind, lore-wise, that I've been thinking a lot over since last night.

 

1) Yet another example of the timey-wimey thing. Nanamo specifically mentions Ala Mhigo 20 years ago and the Calamity 5. It feels really strange for the main story to mention that, since that means the entireties of 2.x, 3.x and 4.0 all took place in a single year? So the rejoining of the Alliance, the raid on Castrum, the primal situations, all of the Iceheart thing, the Ishgardian call to arms, the forging AND destruction of the Crystal Braves, our adventures in Ishgard, the entire journey across all of the HW zones, several terse negotiations with hostile factions including DRAGONS, ended the actual war, forged a new government, relocated all of the missing Scions from a few points ago, started a revolution, ended a revolution, unearthed Omega, killed a couple more primals, discovered Rhalgr's Reach, brought together numerous Resistance cells, took an allegedly-long journey across half the known world by boat, helped form another revolution, ended a tribal battle, made an alliance with those people, overthrew Doma, returned to Rhalgr's, lead one more revolution, overthrew Ala Mhigo, and killed an insane dragon god.

 

In one year.

 

Right. WoL doesn't get days off.

 

2) So... that whole last fight thing. We're present when Lakshmi is summoned the first time, and promptly go kill her. The miqo'te tribe out there agrees to keep an eye out for more suspicious stuff. Somehow, Lakshmi got summoned again, OR in the few waning moments she had before WoL stomps her in the story, she managed to temper not ONLY a bunch of Resistance guards, but the very specific ones who'd end up on guard duty for a meeting they had no idea would ever come to exist. Oh, and no one noticed them dumping crystals into the Throne Room, which referencing point #1, has been empty for MAYBE a week, since No Days Off.

 

Either Lakshmi is as productive with her time as WoL, or there's a new way to temper people without a primal needing to be summoned, or there are two Lakshmis around since we only kill one in the MSQ.

 

Discuss!

 

[Sounsyy]

1. Yes, timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly. It doesn't make a lot of sense and it flies in the face of suspension of disbelief, but yeah. In the lore, just one year.

 

2. Tempering does not require the primal to be summoned. Otherwise the primals themselves wouldn't have nearly enough followers to sustain them. This is why beast tribes such as the Amalj'aa and Sahagin take slaves and prisoners. Using "sacred" items blessed by the primal's corrupting influence when it was corporeal, they are able to temper new followers without having actually resummoned their gods. In the case of the Amalj'aa, they have their sacred flames which they hold their slaves in until their minds temper. The Sahagin take thalassocratic prisoners and "drown" them in the waters around their summoning pool. It's unclear for some of the other primals, though the Sylphs are always attempting to capture non-tempered sylphs and convert them in some way. I'm not sure what method the Qalyana used, but it was likely in a similar fashion. The primal only has to be summoned once to corrupt something that can be used later to temper others.

[Mermaid]

I haven't been able to do it all yet because my friends want to get all the content unlocked first.

 

 

 

I did get to the dungeon unlock though and Arenvald is just a perfect cinnamon roll now. We must protect him lest he go the way of a certain other cinnamon roll.

 

 

[Gegenji]

This is just me but...

 

 

 

Did the voice of the Ala Mhigan who called traitor on Fordola and her family seem... off to anyone else? It's not a lore thing, it was just... I dunno. He sounded odd and out of place.

 

Also, behind the door leading to the new dungeon was totally just a solid wall! :cactuar:

 

Getting more serious though... I was actually kinda surprised that Raubahn basically got told off by Nanamo to stay in Ala Mhigo. I mean, he mentioned he had some lingering interest in aiding his homeland... but he definitely seemed more in favor of staying at the Sultana's side rather than leave it. So, was this action more to push him away so Nanamo herself could mature and grow as a leader without him as a crutch? Or was he actually that much more into staying in Ala Mhigo and I just missed it?

 

... Also, was there any way we were supposed to know that the Saltery was the one to go with other than trial and error (though I loved the line at the end) and perhaps some knowledge of Lolorito's epicurean tendencies? Has it been so long that I've forgotten some bit of NPC conversation that mentions how valuable the Saltery was?

 

 

[Warren Castille]

This is just me but...

 

 

 

Did the voice of the Ala Mhigan who called traitor on Fordola and her family seem... off to anyone else? It's not a lore thing, it was just... I dunno. He sounded odd and out of place.

 

Also, behind the door leading to the new dungeon was totally just a solid wall! :cactuar:

 

Getting more serious though... I was actually kinda surprised that Raubahn basically got told off by Nanamo to stay in Ala Mhigo. I mean, he mentioned he had some lingering interest in aiding his homeland... but he definitely seemed more in favor of staying at the Sultana's side rather than leave it. So, was this action more to push him away so Nanamo herself could mature and grow as a leader without him as a crutch? Or was he actually that much more into staying in Ala Mhigo and I just missed it?

 

... Also, was there any way we were supposed to know that the Saltery was the one to go with other than trial and error (though I loved the line at the end) and perhaps some knowledge of Lolorito's epicurean tendencies? Has it been so long that I've forgotten some bit of NPC conversation that mentions how valuable the Saltery was?

 

 

 

 

I think that was there solely to get across how much of an insufferable dick he is. I got it in two, so I can only google imagine how he'd react when you're out of options.

 

[Warren Castille]

I haven't been able to do it all yet because my friends want to get all the content unlocked first.

 

 

 

I did get to the dungeon unlock though and Arenvald is just a perfect cinnamon roll now. We must protect him lest he go the way of a certain other cinnamon roll.

 

 

 

As a rule, I assume every likable ruffian who wants to help us is a fucking traitor we'll end up killing. Batman this shit: Have a plan to kill everyone around you!

[Silmanos]

 

 

I don't think there was anything at all that really gave it away as to be the one aside from just common sense and world history knowledge. Which unless you really consider what the others need on an economic scale can be elusive. Salt has always been a very important and lucrative trade item for man kind because of it's many uses. On the same stance Ala Ghanna offered only a quarry and I guess Ala Ghiri's money maker is most likely hunting. Neither of which would be something the rest of the world would really jump at. As it stands the main source for the quarry would be Ala Mhigo itself and Ishgard, the other three city states really don't need stone.

 

As for the Raubahn thing that was an interesting thing to see, because it does actually more indicate growth for Nanamo than anything important for him. Not to mention I wonder what kind of ripples this will have for our server's Immortal Flames rpers. While it won't have a direct massive effect I can imagine that it ICly would create quite a stir. Changing leaders like that is a big deal after all.

 

 

[Valence]

1) One year is definitely short, but it at least remains a certain time period. It didn't happen in a month, or a week. I would be annoyed with way less, but one year doesn't bother me too much. Nanamo still saying 5 years when it's obvious that the MSQ has dropped hints and facts in other lines that it's been a little more than 6 actually, is confusing. The hell Nanamo, learn your calendar. I mean, I can understand you got cloistered in your palace for so many cycles, but still...

 

2) Even without considering what Sounssy said above, who says that those resistance tempered souls were tempered recently? The resistance has been going on for 2 decades (although it got really meaningful only in the last 5 years considering how a joke it was in 1.0). It's also possible that the tempering goes rather deep, and has been there for a long time.

 

 

On the Saltery, if you pick up all the wrong answers before answering the correct one, the last choice you're given from what I saw from reddit screens is actually funny (unless those screens were faked, which is also a possibility):

 

1. "The Saltery"

2. "You really want me to say the Saltery, aren't you?"

 

 

Anyway, more seriously, and even if I chose Ala Ghanna myself first without thinking a bit more, because Ala Ghanna was said to be actually very profitable before the garlean invasion, there is a reasoning to be had. Ala Ghanna stopped being profitable when Garleans came and crushed the country, but also didn't kick back in because they generally are fonder of metallic alloys and cermet construction. Ala Ghanna's only choice was to export to other cities like Ul'dah or Ishgard, but the export costs were just too prohibitive to sustain.

 

That's also what Lolorito says when you mention Ala Ghanna (would cost more than the price of the stone itself). And the deal breaker here is that being profitable to Ala Migho AND Ul'dah both is mandatory.

 

Ala Ghiri has no real resource of economic value as far as I know. They used to have a chocobo relay and stables, and possibly other services, but otherwise no raw resource specific to their land.

[Faye]

 

 

 

The timey-wimey stuff is annoying. I refuse to follow it when it comes to role-play and go with real-time instead. For that much stuff to have happened in such a sort amount of time is ridic, not mention the strange dichotomy it makes you feel as the player to know that all you've done the past four years IRL only amounts to one year in game. As for the Tempering, as Sounsyy unsurprisingly had covered, Primal summonings aren't necessary to Temper, hence all the Tempered people and creatures we see around much more regularly than we see the Primals themselves come into existence (and how the Primals get summoned in the first place).

 

 

This is just me but...

... Also, was there any way we were supposed to know that the Saltery was the one to go with other than trial and error (though I loved the line at the end) and perhaps some knowledge of Lolorito's epicurean tendencies? Has it been so long that I've forgotten some bit of NPC conversation that mentions how valuable the Saltery was?

 

Also the Saltery seemed the least likely answer to me personally so I ended up choosing it last. I did, at least, appreciate the sassy new option that was given after failing to pick correctly twice. >_>

 

 

 

[Ramen]

 

 

 

The timey-wimey stuff is annoying. I refuse to follow it when it comes to role-play and go with real-time instead. For that much stuff to have happened in such a sort amount of time is ridic, not mention the strange dichotomy it makes you feel as the player to know that all you've done the past four years IRL only amounts to one year in game. As for the Tempering, as Sounsyy unsurprisingly had covered, Primal summonings aren't necessary to Temper, hence all the Tempered people and creatures we see around much more regularly than we see the Primals themselves come into existence (and how the Primals get summoned in the first place).

 

 

 

This is just me but...

... Also, was there any way we were supposed to know that the Saltery was the one to go with other than trial and error (though I loved the line at the end) and perhaps some knowledge of Lolorito's epicurean tendencies? Has it been so long that I've forgotten some bit of NPC conversation that mentions how valuable the Saltery was?

 

 

 

Also the Saltery seemed the least likely answer to me personally so I ended up choosing it last. I did, at least, appreciate the sassy new option that was given after failing to pick correctly twice. >_>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I picked the Saltery first. Truth be told it seemed like the most reasonable option to me. I might've missed it while rushing through the MSQ, but I didn't see much in the way of potential for farming or anything else from the other communities. They all seemed dirt poor. So when I picked Saltery it was primarily because of two reasons. 1) It seemed like the best import they could start off with as a recovering nation. Readily available and easy to produce and 2) The idea of Ala Mhigans being the leading producer in salt made me laugh.

 

[Gegenji]

 

 

I picked the Saltery first. Truth be told it seemed like the most reasonable option to me. I might've missed it while rushing through the MSQ, but I didn't see much in the way of potential for farming or anything else from the other communities. They all seemed dirt poor. So when I picked Saltery it was primarily because of two reasons. 1) It seemed like the best import they could start off with as a recovering nation. Readily available and easy to produce and 2) The idea of Ala Mhigans being the leading producer in salt made me laugh.

 

 

 

See, I thought the recovery of the quarry would've been the one since there was a whole side-quest regarding finding that mining location by the graveyard or whatever. So I went with that one first. Then I picked the other one just because I both couldn't remember what traits it might've had and it was next down the line. :blush:

 

 

[Mermaid]

I haven't been able to do it all yet because my friends want to get all the content unlocked first.

 

 

 

I did get to the dungeon unlock though and Arenvald is just a perfect cinnamon roll now. We must protect him lest he go the way of a certain other cinnamon roll.

 

 

 

As a rule, I assume every likable ruffian who wants to help us is a fucking traitor we'll end up killing. Batman this shit: Have a plan to kill everyone around you!

 

Whoa, put the kryptonite down. The writers let us have nice things sometimes.

[Sounsyy]

Ala Ghiri's primary export was Arak, however, the date trees needed to produce more arak are just now being replanted. So it'll be a few years before they become a major exporter. Other than that, Ala Ghiri was simply a waystation for trade with the Near East. Considering the land route is still under Garlean control, that business is dead.

 

Ala Ghana is the primary producer of stone, brick, quarrying, etc. While you've helped restimulate the quarrying there, they have very few workers currently and very little in the way of shelter to offer them (there's a quest where you're helping an old lady repair her dilapidated house). Their main use for that stone will be helping rebuild Ala Mhigo, which benefits Ul'dah little.

 

Which leaves the Saltery. There's not a lot to go on here. No quest helpers. Most of this relies on your knowledge of salt as a historical trade commodity and Lolorito's love of fine dining. A sightseeing vista mentions a duct which filtered salt from the water to make it potable (until Garlemald's magitek system made it obsolete), and there's a few item and fishing descriptions which talks about salt use and trade. On top of that, it's the only option not in a hamlet so more room for expansion, there are empty homes in disrepair in the area.

 

But really, the easiest way to guess the Saltery was by eliminating the first two options.

[Wemrys]

I think the writers over at SE are completely aware of how ridiculous the timey wimey stuff in XIV given how with the Hildy quest this happens...

 

 

 

[Gegenji]

But really, the easiest way to guess the Saltery was by eliminating the first two options.

 

Ah, okay, good. I was worried I missed obvious clue or hint along the way. I mean, there obviously are clues, but they were a bit more nuanced than some obvious "PICK THIS ONE" indicator displayed somewhere.

[Wemrys]

Also about the Saltery bit...I realized something while pondering my first answer that helped me answer properly.

 

 

i.e. that there's lore that states Lolorito is notoriously known to be a gourmand who will ruin any food business that does not satisfy his tastes. Salt is added to meals regularly to enhance flavor...may have been a stretch but playing up to Lolorito's interests kinda seemed obvious to me once I remembered that.

 

[Gegenji]

Also about the Saltery bit...I realized something while pondering my first answer that helped me answer properly.

 

 

i.e. that there's lore that states Lolorito is notoriously known to be a gourmand who will ruin any food business that does not satisfy his tastes. Salt is added to meals regularly to enhance flavor...may have been a stretch but playing up to Lolorito's interests kinda seemed obvious to me once I remembered that.

 

 

Oh, it makes perfect sense - especially since he outs himself in the cutscene afterward - but the main place where I think you learn that bit of lore is during the CUL quest line (Around level 50, I believe?). At least, that's where I mainly remember that from - so you may not get that if you didn't level your cooking skills.

[Valence]

I'm not totally sure what is so "timey whimey" with a bit more than one year since the beginning? Other than the 2 months to go to Othard? Let's say 4 since we had Scions in two to bring back there?

[Warren Castille]

I'm not totally sure what is so "timey whimey" with a bit more than one year since the beginning? Other than the 2 months to go to Othard? Let's say 4 since we had Scions in two to bring back there?

 

Just the politics alone would never settle in one year. Ul'dah had their Sultana nearly deposed with riots in the streets, Ishgard went from walls-up to walls-down to run-by-the-church to the-pope-is-dead-here's-aymeric to we-now-have-a-functional-alliance-between-houses. Raubahn goes from hero to political villain back to hero in a month. Estinien's reign as Nidhogg gets compressed to maybe that long. The Alliance goes from entering the Dragonsong War to having it done in a single season. Same for crushing the Empire's hold in Othard. It just feels too fast for any kind of believable working process or troop movement.

 

Also remember I'm a grognard and complain about muh immersion.

[Valence]

Are we complaining on a lack of realism on a genre that is defined by its clear lack of realism, or by the shortcuts and oversimplifications that it is known to take at every turn? (aka, shonen)

 

We can swap realism with suspension of disbelief, works too.

 

I was wondering, because when I watch certain genres, I don't expect them to be spot on on details that would be mandatory in other genres. I'm not expecting political accuracy and realistic timeframes in what is basically, a fairy tale before anything.

 

Which doesn't prevent me from wishing they sticked to the 1.0 overall tone, but whatever.

[Maril]

So who was the person at the end. Does anyone have any guesses? I can't figure out who they might be. I really hate it when they do that whole "Lets show them 5% of some really important unknown person". 

[Aedan Marceaux]

Elidibus

[Teadrinker]

Elidibus

 

 

Wearing Zenos like a skinsuit.

 

 

Tbh the part that got me hardest was this:

 

 

 

[Warren Castille]

Are we complaining on a lack of realism on a genre that is defined by its clear lack of realism, or by the shortcuts and oversimplifications that it is known to take at every turn? (aka, shonen)

 

We can swap realism with suspension of disbelief, works too.

 

I was wondering, because when I watch certain genres, I don't expect them to be spot on on details that would be mandatory in other genres. I'm not expecting political accuracy and realistic timeframes in what is basically, a fairy tale before anything.

 

Which doesn't prevent me from wishing they sticked to the 1.0 overall tone, but whatever.

 

If you wanted to reduce the argument to its basest parts, then yeah, I guess I am. My primary issue is that it's sloppy writing in the first place: Nanamo mentioning a specific year adds zero weight, gravity or tone to the setting. It could be argued that by having all of these things happen in such a short span of time it shows how much duress the WoL is under, constantly, but...

 

They don't make a show of that at all. We are the indefatigable unstoppable main character, so it doesn't really matter if the entire arc took place over a single crazy weekend or several years. The overall narrative, in my opinion, doesn't benefit at all from SE throwing that line into the main scenario. It's less of a lack of realism and more an abundance of questionable writing. All they had to do was say something along the lines of "We've had so much happen in such a short time..." and it conveys the exact same point without putting such a specific number to it. It also serves to contradict other sidequests and references to time passing by. I know SE doesn't carve out this world for roleplayers, but it seemed silly to me to have several years worth of game now and then have them draw attention to the fact the timey-wimey ball is in play.

 

I'm a curmudgeon about this stuff. It's not to say that a lot can't happen fast, but when you scale down 2.5 wars, a couple of revolutions and several large world changes, you lose the ability to pretend any of this shit matters. It'll all be cleared by next week anyway, so why worry about it now? Rome wasn't build in a day, so why should Mor Dhonanant's Toll be?

[Faye]

 

So who was the person at the end. Does anyone have any guesses? I can't figure out who they might be. I really hate it when they do that whole "Lets show them 5% of some really important unknown person". 

 

It annoys me so much when SE does this (often with characters we've never seen before and couldn't identify even if we saw their whole face and body????) that I don't even bother trying to speculate anymore >_>