Expansion Announced: Heavensward, releasing Spring 2015

[Zyrusticae]

Now that's misinformation!

 

For your knowledge, there is no difference between the value of VIT for PLDs and WARs. Zero. None. Zilch. Shield Oath's damage mitigation is THE EXACT SAME THING as Defiance's bonus HP+bonus healing. The only difference is in the numbers you see. 25% damage mitigation works out to the exact same math as 25% more HP + healing. (Yes, PLD has +5% damage penalty on shield oath and Defiance has -5% less bonus healing than it does bonus HP but that small a difference doesn't fundamentally change the value of the stats.)

 

Further the gear sets that are STR based for Tanks are also low in mitigation this means that a VIT PLD not only has better soaking ability they won't dip in HP nearly as fast as a STR PLD.

And this is just nonsense. Accessories don't have anything to do with mitigation (except +parry which is a dump stat) and ALL tank sets of the same ilvl have defense, STR, and VIT in equal amounts. What in the world are you even talking about here?

[Havoc Snow]

Jobs changing Stat to VIT and tanks changing VIT to STR are the only exceptions to the rule, and you don't see much of the former. The latter is done once HP pools are requisite enough to survive an encounter without dying, and has a lot to do with healer ability. It still remains that SMN/SCH are the only class that is forced to pick between one or the other. It's part of the half-baked same-class-different-role that no other job has been saddled with (and looks like no other job ever will be, given the current trend of job-only).

 

It's inconsistent and SCH/SMN players are justified in feeling mishandled, because they have been.

 

I agree, but I don't think the answer is "Take out stat bonuses" because I like them. I think there could be more cool ways to spread stats around in the future.

I for one never suggested they should take stat allocation out of the game, I just stated that stat allocation should be job dependent, meaning that SMN and SCH would have to sets of 30 points to spend how they want instead of 30 points to share between the two.

[Sounsyy]

Not to further derail the thread, but as someone who mains tank (WAR and PLD) I have to throw my full support behind STR spec'ing. In my opinion, no geared tank should be wearing VIT accessories/spec into VIT for anything outside of T9-13, where maxing HP is a necessity for survival. Quite literally, all VIT does for you is boost your HP and there is no content outside of S/FCoB that requires either tank class to walk around with 8-12k HP.

 

STR is useful for both tank classes in every instance. Higher DPS, faster enmity control, and higher Block/Parry mitigation are worlds more useful than having an extra 1k total HP. And you don't need the +Parry off of VIT accessories. Your left-side gear has more than enough Parry stat to Parry frequently in instances where you can actually Parry. Adding more of the stat is really just a waste of good DPS. Some fights you can't Parry at all because magic damage and so often you see Off Tanks stacking Parry when they aren't even being hit. In both of those instances, Parry is a completely useless stat.

 

This is of course coming from a well-geared and experienced tank. If you aren't well geared or feel uncomfortable without the extra HP safety blanket, by all means, use VIT until you are comfortable with the content. Eventually you'll get to a point where Echo or Item Level or experience will afford you abundant supplies of HP that your diligent and equally geared Healer (Eos) will never let you use and then you can start to explore the wonders of STR spec'ing.

 

 

On topic: I'm glad they aren't adding more double jobs branching from single classes, cuz good lord SMN/SCH is one heck of an unnecessary allocation mess.

[Havoc Snow]

Not to further derail the thread, but as someone who mains tank (WAR and PLD) I have to throw my full support behind STR spec'ing. In my opinion, no geared tank should be wearing VIT accessories/spec into VIT for anything outside of T9-13, where maxing HP is a necessity for survival. Quite literally, all VIT does for you is boost your HP and there is no content outside of S/FCoB that requires either tank class to walk around with 8-12k HP.

 

STR is useful for both tank classes in every instance. Higher DPS, faster enmity control, and higher Block/Parry mitigation are worlds more useful than having an extra 1k total HP. And you don't need the +Parry off of VIT accessories. Your left-side gear has more than enough Parry stat to Parry frequently in instances where you can actually Parry. Adding more of the stat is really just a waste of good DPS. Some fights you can't Parry at all because magic damage and so often you see Off Tanks stacking Parry when they aren't even being hit. In both of those instances, Parry is a completely useless stat.

 

This is of course coming from a well-geared and experienced tank. If you aren't well geared or feel uncomfortable without the extra HP safety blanket, by all means, use VIT until you are comfortable with the content. Eventually you'll get to a point where Echo or Item Level or experience will afford you abundant supplies of HP that your diligent and equally geared Healer (Eos) will never let you use and then you can start to explore the wonders of STR spec'ing.

 

 

On topic: I'm glad they aren't adding more double jobs branching from single classes, cuz good lord SMN/SCH is one heck of an unnecessary allocation mess.

You're still agreeing though that the best course of action is going 30 STR? Not 15 VIT 15 STR? Because the argument isn't necessarily that a Tank has to go 30 points into VIT, it's just that whatever they do decide to dump their stats into, whether VIT or STR, the best option is to go 30 into it.

[OttoVann]

The tanks in my static are full STR and use ruby melded right side and tanked t10-12 and onto 13 that way. They MAY go half vit/str for t13 for our first kill. You do not need full vit for FCOB.

[Warren Castille]

I'd make an argument for paladins in specific going 30VIT if they're mass-pulling dungeons to try and get everything AoE'd down quickly. Flash doesn't scale with strength (last I checked it was only weapon magic damage, which is a hidden stat because ps3) and paladin's utter lack of AoE damage means STR doesn't contribute at all, and the already-pitiful damage on Riot combo to recover MP isn't going to be meaningfully boosted by 30STR.

 

If I were running with a set healer and not pugging it I'd probably change my song on this, but I tend to not trust random folks. That being said, switching out for STR accessories or doing ruby melds is strongly encouraged on bosses. I can't think of the last time I've done something in Sword Oath with STR gear and lost hate on something, but I don't do meaningful content.

[Kellach Woods]

I just like the extra reassurance that the VIT stat gives me.

 

Since, y'know, I'm ass at this game.

 

That being said, it doesn't help that each class generally has one stat that is remotely significant. If there was an actual choice, then yeah, sure maybe.

[Gegenji]

I've actually been debating whether or not to switch Chachan's 30 VIT on PLD to 30 STR after reading all this. He's only a little over i100, though, with the exact number escaping me at the moment. So there's that, and the fact I'm usually just pugging dungeons with him, which leaves me quite at the mercy of my healers.

 

I'm almost contemplating at 15/15 split, but I don't know if that's better or worse, really.

 

Blugh. Should probably just stick to 30 VIT.

[Kellach Woods]

Personally I'm on a 15/15 split, and I'll probably swap to 30 STR sooner than later.

[Warren Castille]

I've had enough situations where, even with cycling cooldowns and stacking VIT, I've died to the first Hardflox pull (like, as of a week ago) with PUG healers. VIT has uses, though they're limited to the more casual side of things.

 

Just too cheap to do ruby melds, in all honesty.

[Sounsyy]

You're still agreeing though that the best course of action is going 30 STR? Not 15 VIT 15 STR?

 

Yeah. I do really miss 1.0 where each class had multiple useful stats, which actually made Stat Allocation... useful I guess? But I mean now, dividing stats in most cases is just a waste. I used to go 15/15 STR/VIT on PLD back in 2.1 I think, but honestly, all 15 VIT gives you is exactly 217 HP... which is about equivalent to most trash mobs' one auto attack. So it's not really worth splitting. So I ended up going 30 STR for both PLD and WAR and I couldn't be happier.

 

I've never really had a situation where a healer has had a problem keeping me up short of me doing something dumb. But I guess that really depends on healer paying attention and tank knowing how to use their cooldowns.

[Kage]

At the moment my tanks are both fully spec'd for 30 STR. I have VIT and STR accessories that I switch depending on what content I'm doing. I like to pewpew as Warrior and Paladin.

 

And I don't need to have VIT accessories when tanking Titan HM.

 

But I may when I need to pull Expert dungeons and I get whacked a bit too hard and fast @_@;

 

 

I would never split points though. I'll always go full 30 because in my (uninformed non number crunching opinion) to do so otherwise is a waste of points.

[Kellach Woods]

Yeah. I do really miss 1.0 where each class had multiple useful stats, which actually made Stat Allocation... useful I guess? But I mean now, dividing stats in most cases is just a waste. I used to go 15/15 STR/VIT on PLD back in 2.1 I think, but honestly, all 15 VIT gives you is exactly 217 HP... which is about equivalent to most trash mobs' one auto attack. So it's not really worth splitting. So I ended up going 30 STR for both PLD and WAR and I couldn't be happier.

 

This is partially why I'm thinking this whole stat allocation thing should really be dealt away with.

 

Just put job traits that grant you those stats, done.

[Sounsyy]

I have VIT and STR accessories that I switch depending on what content I'm doing.

 

See, and that's another thing. You can swap accessories any time you aren't engaged in combat. So if you're coming up on a big pull and you think you may actually need that extra HP, by all means, change to your VIT accessories for the pull, and then you can swap back to STR accessories right after.

 

I do this during that first pull of ST a lot, because if I'm going in... I'm grabbing errythin and that initial HP plummet can scare healers sometimes. (It's all in good fun.)

 

 

EDIT:

This is partially why I'm thinking this whole stat allocation thing should really be dealt away with.

 

Just put job traits that grant you those stats, done.

 

The problem with this is that, more than likely, SE would put those 30 points for tanks into VIT, not STR. Actually, now that I think about it, the default would probably be the stat that the job boosts in party. So SCH might even get stuck with a PIE bonus instead of 30 points into MND. Yeah, no, I'd rather do my own stats, even if they are funneled into a single choice, I want to make the best choice.

[Kage]

Innnnn before Square says "BLACK MAGES NEED MORE PIETY"

[Kellach Woods]

The problem with this is that, more than likely, SE would put those 30 points for tanks into VIT, not STR. Actually, now that I think about it, the default would probably be the stat that the job boosts in party. So SCH might even get stuck with a PIE bonus instead of 30 points into MND. Yeah, no, I'd rather do my own stats, even if they are funneled into a single choice, I want to make the best choice.

 

Alternately, they could make stacking VIT actually matter.

[Havoc Snow]

The problem with this is that, more than likely, SE would put those 30 points for tanks into VIT, not STR. Actually, now that I think about it, the default would probably be the stat that the job boosts in party. So SCH might even get stuck with a PIE bonus instead of 30 points into MND. Yeah, no, I'd rather do my own stats, even if they are funneled into a single choice, I want to make the best choice.

 

If you notice in your traits every class gets a bonus to a particular stat every few levels, for example Archer and Rogue get DEX, Gladiator and Marauder get VIT, Pugilist and Lancer get STR, etc. Chances are they would just dump the thirty points into these Traits, or at the very least the stats these Traits increase.

[Sounsyy]

Alternately, they could make stacking VIT actually matter.

 

While I'm all for making every stat actually worthwhile, I can only see two ways to make VIT stacking viable as an all the time thing.

 

1. Give every boss the ability to one-shot a fully geared tank. (Which is basically what they did in FCoB.) But this would deter and alienate lower geared tanks from doing new content.

 

2. Go back to 1.0 days and make VIT affect HP and Physical Defense and bring back the dreaded defLvl* system. Which wasn't an entirely bad system... but even back then VIT was only useful for trash pulls and even with fully melded VIT gear, you could never achieve a high enough VIT rating to reduce the damage taken by Bosses. Once people figured this out towards the end of 1.0, most people started going with STR anyways.

 

*For those not familiar, 1.0's Defense Level system was basically a linear design wherein an enemy's attack power was scaled against your VIT (defense) to determine damage reduction. The problem with this system was that it scaled horribly. Trash mobs in dungeons were very easy to outscale with top-tier VIT gear, basically reducing the damage you took to double digits. However, when fighting a boss like Ifrit, whose attack power far outscaled the amount of VIT you could possibly muster, the affect was laughable.

 

This is basically why you can find a million youtube videos of people doing 1.0 Ifrit naked because it literally made no difference. There wasn't gear high enough in game to reduce the damage Ifrit dealt. A naked tank or DPS would take 1100 damage from Ifrit's cleave. A fully geared tank would take 1000. Thus did DefLvl fail and everyone dropped VIT and swapped to STR builds and SE got rid of the DefLvl system in 2.0.