So this is a thing now?

[C'kayah Polaali]

Post deleted. My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.

[Flickering Ember]

Hmm, well, I don't think it's a problem in a sense. If someone owns something, they have the right to sell it. The core of the problem comes down to how terribly implemented the housing servers are. I guess I see it as similar to selling a guild.

[Gegenji]

Unfortunately, it's supply and demand. EVERYONE wants a house, and people will pay a lot of money for it. Plus, there's no downside to owning additional digital property, from what I can tell. So, they can most likely keep asking what they want until someone buys it.

 

Or, hopefully, it'll follow actual economics and when people aren't paying 200% retail value on the houses, the prices will go down. I wouldn't mind recouping some of the money I sunk into the house, but asking for the house's asking price is dumb. At most, it'd be more of a "holder's fee" to not release it until they have the cash for it.

 

.. Which would be a simple percentage. 10-20% maybe? I dunno.

[Yhen Yizeh]

It's hardly "predatory" or "trollish" as you put it. It's prioritizing people the right to get this thing that's in demand. 

 

Supply and demand, my dear. 

 

If you're going to be passive-aggressive about me selling my plot, go ahead and buy the other small plot!

 

Oh wait.

[Melkire]

I used to play Eve Online. A lot of Eve Online. Eve has a reputation (richly deserved) for having a trollish and predatory player community. This is exactly the sort of thing that the Eve player base would loudly applaud.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, E.V.E. applauds infiltrating a corporation and making one's way up the ranks only to later steal entire fleets' worth of ships out from under the corp's noses. Recuperating the initial investment of a plot in XIV is nothing in comparison, and E.V.E. players would either laugh or scoff at the suggestion.

 

That's all this is, really. FCs and individuals "selling" first-come first-serve rights. I don't condone it, but hey, folks are trying to make back the gil they spent.

 

If anything, we should be shaking our heads at how poorly implemented housing is, such that an individual or FC cannot sell their house to another individual or FC. Instead, you are forced to demolish the existing structure, which in turn forces the new tenant to spend even more in order to rebuild the same exact structure, all in the name of additional gil sinks.

[C'kayah Polaali]

My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.

[Haven's Fox]

Hey it's how RL works. You want to move so you sell to recoup some cash for your new home. It would have been nice to have a in game system to sell and transfer a plots deed and maybe the house itself. It's not gonna be the first or last thing from RL to slip into the game.

[Havoc Snow]

You assume that the RPC community has even a modicum of sway in how things are done on Balmung or Gilgamesh. The fact of that matter is this is merely how things are done in FFXIV, and by trying to make a stand and saying "we as an RP community shouldn't do this!" you're only excluding yourself from an already acceptable practice (as you yourself pointed out).

 

I've seen people on here who have sold their plots and offered a discount to any players from this community, or were willing to negotiate prices to a lower amount than they would have ask of any outside of the RPC, and to me I think that is more than reasonable. Asking for anything else I feel is a bit greedy, and this is coming from someone who worked his ass off to get enough money for a small house only to have the opportunity taken from him by SEs poor choices.

 

Whether a person wants to sell their plot (and for how much) or give it away should be up to them, not dictated by the community.

[C'kayah Polaali]

My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.

[Havoc Snow]

You assume that the RPC community has even a modicum of sway in how things are done on Balmung or Gilgamesh. The fact of that matter is this is merely how things are done in FFXIV, and by trying to make a stand and saying "we as an RP community shouldn't do this!" you're only excluding yourself from an already acceptable practice (as you yourself pointed out).

 

I've seen people on here who have sold their plots and offered a discount to any players from this community, or were willing to negotiate prices to a lower amount than they would have ask of any outside of the RPC, and to me I think that is more than reasonable. Asking for anything else I feel is a bit greedy, and this is coming from someone who worked his ass off to get enough money for a small house only to have the opportunity taken from him by SEs poor choices.

 

That's actually not what I'm suggesting at all.

 

Tea~ didn't simply relinquish their plot for anyone to pick up. They coordinated with Tylwyth Narah so that we could pick it up when they relinquished. They did so because we're both part of the RPC community, and they wanted to do something nice to help another RP FC. We'll likewise do the same thing when it comes time for us to move into a larger house, because we also want to do something nice for another RP FC.

While I find that sort of thing to be endearing and very generous, I also don't feel that it should be a standard that is set and enforced. The mindset that people should be giving away what they spent a ton of gil on just because we're all in the same community is a poisonous one, not because it's a bad thing, but because it would only endeavor to make the people who want to earn back some of the money they invested into the house initially into pariahs.

 

Ultimately as I put in my previous post, it should be up to the individual or FC, not up to the RPC community. I could think of a lot of different ways to giving away a house, such as an IC auction, a raffle, some sort of event like a scavenger hunt, or simply just selling it.

[Aysun]

As someone who desperately wants to buy a small house, but cannot afford to pay someone to relinquish a plot and then purchase the plot on top of it, I wish they wouldn't. But I understand the reasons behind it.

[Kage]

Unfortunately part of this is how the game is designed.

 

Some individuals do not want to see 4+ mil go down the drain. If it is tied to a an FC they would need to recuperate it somehow if the person wants to own it as a personal house. Just relinquishing it is a very generous gesture but that is a large amount of gil. The cheaper option is the change of FC ownership but that means you get stuck with the name of the FC. You might decide you don't like the house properties (construction).

 

It's not so simple. It's not a matter of much greed but a matter of even recuperating some costs. You yourself have told me before of how ridiculous gil was to get before. Some people don't like the idea of just dropping x gil forever and it's not something limited to the RPC or the server. It's human.

[Havoc Snow]

I think the only thing that could fix the problem would be if SE added some way to sell the deed itself, instead of just the plot. Then you could charge the amount the plot is worth for the deed and no one feels like they're being ripped off or having to put themselves in the hole to buy a house.

[Merri]

It's not so simple. It's not a matter of much greed but a matter of even recuperating some costs.

 

This, basically. At the end of the day, people have different situations, and that ought to be taken into consideration. Sure, there are people out there who are just in it for the gil. People who are already comfortable, and want to scalp what they can if they're going to sell something off.

 

Then, there's people who are just looking to cut back on some of their potential loss. People who are looking to make enough gil to upgrade their plot in the first place. People who don't want to feel like they wasted millions of gil for no reason. I don't think it's unreasonable at all for them to want a little something back.

 

For example, when I sold my plot, it was because without doing so I wouldn't have been able to afford to upgrade to a larger house in the first place. So, I sold it off to a friend at a discount, and gave them months to pay me back. In exchange, they got a ranked up FC, as well as millions of gil worth of furnishings that inevitably broke their price even with the alternative of them buying the plot, the permit, and the furnishings. Given my initial investment into the house, I lost about three million gil, but I was able to let a friend get a home and move into another one myself, so it all worked out in the end.

 

At the end of the day, it really boils down to SE having botched the entire system to begin with. It's rough around the edges. Some people can afford to cut their losses, others can't. It's a grey area.

[Naunet]

Hey it's how RL works. You want to move so you sell to recoup some cash for your new home. It would have been nice to have a in game system to sell and transfer a plots deed and maybe the house itself. It's not gonna be the first or last thing from RL to slip into the game.

 

Well, in real life, you don't give the sellers money and then ALSO have to pay for the house... The paying for the house is what you do when you give the sellers their money.

 

But then XIV's whole housing system is f'ed up so, whatevs.

 

The mindset that people should be giving away what they spent a ton of gil on just because we're all in the same community is a poisonous one,

 

I don't really see how it's "giving away" when the person leaving the house already intends to leave it and the person buying the house has to buy it from the game anyway (not you).

[Havoc Snow]

The mindset that people should be giving away what they spent a ton of gil on just because we're all in the same community is a poisonous one,

 

I don't really see how it's "giving away" when the person leaving the house already intends to leave it and the person buying the house has to buy it from the game anyway (not you).

 

It is giving it away though, because whether they intend to move out and go elsewhere or not, until they do it is still their plot.

[Aya]

What you're really selling is timing.You're saying, if you pay me the right amount of gil, I will relinquish this plot at a time of your chosing.  That really isn't the same as selling physical property or a building upon that property. I'm not really sure how I feel about that,  but I guess these sorts of things tend to develop commerce naturally in mmos since there is demand for it

[Kage]

It's not the same thing because housing mechanics but... if I buy a new car, I'm not going to just give away my old car... Not when I've only had it for a few months/a year.

[Havoc Snow]

What you're really selling is timing.You're saying, if you pay me the right amount of gil, I will relinquish this plot at a time of your chosing.  That really isn't the same as selling physical property or a building upon that property. I'm not really sure how I feel about that,  but I guess these sorts of things tend to develop commerce naturally in mmos since there is demand for it

I guess you could consider it a reservation fee perhaps?

[Aya]

Yeah, the car example is really just entirely unrelated to "property" commerce in FF. You would have to go through so much work to make a hypothetical that actually made them comparable that it would be silly I think.

 

Since what you're actually selling is a permit allowing someone to own a car, but they still have to buy the car themselves (yours having been scrapped when you relinquish the permit).  Except that you're not actually exchanging the permit, since that has to go through the DMV.  So what you're doing is agreeing on the time you will take your permit down to the DMV to return it to them (in exchange for nothing), and doing so in exchange for cash.  This doesn't sound much like selling your used car anymore does it?

[Aya]

What you're really selling is timing.You're saying, if you pay me the right amount of gil, I will relinquish this plot at a time of your chosing.  That really isn't the same as selling physical property or a building upon that property. I'm not really sure how I feel about that,  but I guess these sorts of things tend to develop commerce naturally in mmos since there is demand for it

I guess you could consider it a reservation fee perhaps?

I don't know what it is beyond being a service of artficially limited supply but high demand that therefore is worth money to people

[Marisa]

This could all be solved if you could just sell plots to other players. You know, like how housing works in real life.

[Kage]

As I said it's an issue with the system not the sellers. (Not to mention the fact that the onus is on the sellers to go and make sure the title is changed and whatnot otherwise free accidents for the buyer~)

 

The fact is that FFXIV's system does not allow you to recuperate any of your lost costs if you decide you want a new house, a bigger house, or do not want one at all. If I was fortunate enough to own a plot of land and the house built on it I sure as hell would make someone buy both the house -and- the plot of land. This is a real life example. I'm not going to just give away a plot of land.

 

FFXIV is unfortunately harsh on the buyer in cases of player to player transactions.

You have several cases and they're all shorting the buyer just a little bit.

A) You have an FC owned plot. In order to move on up you have to demolish and relinquish the plot. You spent most likely around 5mil gil on the land but you can't just easily make that up so you sell it. Otherwise it's very possible you can't get the other plot you really want in time. So you relinquish it but the buyer will have to pay for the plot, the permit, and you.

 

B) You have an FC owned plot and are willing to give up the FC. Easy, you transfer and the least amount of gil is exchanged -but- the seller has to keep the FC name. Not too bad.

 

C) You own a personal plot. You've spent that amount of money but in order to let go of it or sell it you -need- to relinquish the plot. The house must be destroyed essentially. You have no other options but you can't just let go of 4+mil gil that easily. So unfortunately, the seller must both buy the plot, the permit and pay you for it.

 

It's not peoples' fault. It's the way the game -is-.

[C'kayah Polaali]

My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.

[V'aleera]

It's hardly "predatory" or "trollish" as you put it. It's prioritizing people the right to get this thing that's in demand. 

 

Supply and demand, my dear. 

 

If you're going to be passive-aggressive about me selling my plot, go ahead and buy the other small plot!

 

Oh wait.

 

Actually, I was calling the Eve community (And I've played Eve off and on for a decade, so I do know about it) predatory and trolling. I very specifically said I wasn't singling you out. In fact, I took pains to call out that it's been going on long enough that your sale of your plot was an accepted thing.

 

If we want to be the sort of community that feels that this is acceptable, then that's our choice. And we, as a community, will still have a long ways to go before I'll draw serious parallels with the Eve community.

Frankly, I don't think you need to apologize or skirt the issue. This kind of economic play within this kind of setting and context is by definition predatory. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion. Some people think the playing field should be fair, some think advantages exist to be exploited. Most people are somewhere in the middle.

 

But if someone is getting upset at simply having their activity appropriately labeled, that's a personal issue.

 

As far as the subject at hand, there doesn't seem like much too be done without dev interference, other than simply hoping the market reaches an equilibrium that's more fair to buyers than it presently is.