"Bleed" - Article & Thoughts

[Warren Castille]

So the vibe I'm getting from this conversation is generally a negative one, and I'm going to bow the fuck out before I do something I regret.

 

I'm not sure I feel the same way as you do, but I also feel that difficult discussions are worth having and not inherently bad. If you feel strongly about this, this is the place to put it.

[chaoticsleepy]

I agree with a lot of the sentiments here, honestly. "Bleed", "blending", whatever you like to call it aren't inherently bad. When I'm RPing, I definitely experience some degree of it. When a scene has devastated my character, I hurt for them. When my character experiences joy, I'm happy for them. 

 

In my opinion, there is little difference here between feeling evoked by RP and, say, crying at a particularly sad scene in a book or getting a stupid sappy grin on your face at the happy resolution of a romcom movie. You create a connection to the character(s), which is usually the point. These are all avenues of art meant to imitate life, and life is full of different emotions. If you don't feel anything, then.. Well, in my personal opinion that others may not share, the point has been missed. 

 

But I think the problem isn't so much the bleed itself, but comes in when people have problems properly managing it. I'm not going to claim that I'm some paragon of this. I've made bleed mistakes before, and still do on occasion when I'm not careful. I've sat and cried after particularly sad scenes, and I've allowed a negative scene to put me into a bad mood that had been taken out on others around me. 

 

It's largely about knowing your limits IRL, and when something has become so intense and real to you that you have to take a step backwards. This is especially true, I think, for people who play out scenes in both the Romance and/or Dark/Mature genres. You can apologize to someone for snapping when a scene leaves you in a bad mood or for having to walk away and stop crying in the middle of an RP with (usually) little fanfare from your partners. But romance bleed makes thing very emotionally complicated and awkward, and a dark/mature scene can have a serious, lasting, traumatic psychological effect on you. 

 

So to sum up my two cents.. Emotion isn't bad in an RP. It's meant to evoke an emotional response, I think. You just have to be careful not to let it overwhelm and consume you.

[Arelian Solin]

Escapism is only really a bad thing when it begins to effect how you perceive your actual reality. I'd say there's nothing inherently bad about wanting something to be different than it is. Hell, I'd go ahead and call that a good thing. The problem arises in roleplay, for example, when it's something less rooted in black and white (like your wheelchair and running example) and far more nebulous a quality.

 

For example, someone playing a "charming rogue" archetype when the reality is the person is nothing of the sort. It takes a certain amount of skill to write that kind of character and it's not infrequent that people grow frustrated when the perception of their character doesn't match up with their internal wishes for said character. That frustration tends to--as the article states--bleed into how you the person begins to interact with people on an OOC level. It's the difference between someone that's writing purely for a story they find interesting and writing to fulfill some kind of wish of theirs. 

 

Roleplaying is a collaborative effort and you simply can't make things be true if you're unable to convince others of it. Another example: You want your character to be in a relationship with someone because you're seeking an escape from a potentially lonely reality. There's absolutely nothing wrong with seeking that kind of thing out until you start behaving differently when someone isn't interested in that character or if you take it as a personal slight. The number of people I've seen flip their goddamn lids at other people because they weren't interested in the character but still wished to remain OOC friends (or even an IC break up destroying OOC friendships) is absurd.

[Verad]

And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.

 

Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.

[Kismet]

To extrapolate a bit on where I'm coming from on this, I believe that everyone has some portion of themselves in their roleplay characters. No matter how great or how infinitesimal that portion may be.

 

This isn't to say that if you RP a jerk that you are a jerk, too. But rather, your interpretation of how that jerky character should act is formed uniquely from your perspective. Putting your own spin on a character archetype is putting a piece of yourself into the character. Exploring the results of that is actually one of many reasons RP is so much fun.

 

However, everything I just described up there should not be confused with "bleed" or "blending".

 

When most RPers talk about blending, we're talking about negativity that is bred from doing so. We're talking about something that goes beyond escapism sometimes. People who either can't or have great difficultly separating fantasy from reality. To be fully immersed or invested is one thing. To use roleplay as a means to nurse some fragile obsessive need a person may have to be praised, desired, or vindicated... That's something else.

[Verad]

When most RPers talk about blending, we're talking about negativity that is bred from doing so. We're talking about something that goes beyond escapism sometimes. People who either can't or have great difficultly separating fantasy from reality. To be fully immersed or invested is one thing. To use roleplay as a means to nurse some fragile obsessive need a person may have to be praised, desired, or vindicated... That's something else.

 

And in that regard, what "most RPers" discuss is a problem, because it erases the existence of that one thing and only discusses the existence of the something else, leading to threads where we have to articulate the existence of the one thing again. Similar concerns appear with "metagaming," where it can refer to a broad swathe of activities (pre-planning storylines, the employment of dramatic irony, making characters and storylines based on an OOC awareness of what people tend to play, etc.) but is only used as a pejorative, referring to one specific type of those activities (using OOC knowledge IC without consent).

 

Even the above regarding a "fragile, obsessive need" isn't necessarily problematic on its face - only when it leads to problems for other players, OOC and IC. It seems some posters deem that to be a foregone conclusion; I'm skeptical of that idea.

[Virella]

I'm very grateful that it isn't shown off as something terrible when people do such.

 

Coming from a background with lots of family within the army, I've heard quite the different story in regards of it being a bad trait of immersing yourself with a character. Now you probably wonder why.

 

At big events where they act out natural disasters, terrorist attacks and what not, you got professional actors running around. Often these people are hired to act out, for example, the part of a hysterical woman who just lost her son and keeps begging for help. Others are hired to act as if they are dying. These people do it extremely well, and often asked to be left alone before the training event starts, so they can get themselves in the mindset of these characters.

 

From what I've been told these people are utterly terrifying when it comes to how close they come to crawling of the skin of a character, and often invoke many emotions within the soldiers who are there for training.

 

Actors have to snap out of their role once it is done as well. Their work would be too exhausting, if not mind breaking, if they kept continuing to fuel the emotions they had to express for their work.

 

I see roleplay as the very same thing. Immersion yourself with your character isn't bad, as long as you manage to distance yourself from their emotions afterwards. It isn't toxic if you feel bad for your character, it starts to become a toxic habit when you as a person starts to feel bad.

 

Roleplaying isn't much more then reading a good book to me. I've wept over stories I've read, I've laughed, I've smiled, and so many other emotions writers have managed to convey onto me. Yet it never managed to spiral me down into a horrible depression or anything along those lines, given I can wrap my head around the fact, in the end it is just a story and it did not happen to me personally.

 

At the end of the day, it is all a matter of being capable of shutting that book shut again, enjoying the fact you've read something good, and looking forward to read the next part. Roleplay should be very much the same.

[Kismet]

And in that regard, what "most RPers" discuss is a problem, because it erases the existence of that one thing and only discusses the existence of the something else, leading to threads where we have to articulate the existence of the one thing again. Similar concerns appear with "metagaming," where it can refer to a broad swathe of activities (pre-planning storylines, the employment of dramatic irony, making characters and storylines based on an OOC awareness of what people tend to play, etc.) but is only used as a pejorative, referring to one specific type of those activities (using OOC knowledge IC without consent).

 

Even the above regarding a "fragile, obsessive need" isn't necessarily problematic on its face - only when it leads to problems for other players, OOC and IC. It seems some posters deem that to be a foregone conclusion; I'm skeptical of that idea.

 

I'm admittedly not entirely sure of what you're getting at here? For the latter half of your post, yes, I meant specifically when other players are affected both IC and OOC. If someone is off having whatever issues and it's not affecting anyone other than themselves... of course it's not necessarily problematic.

[Warren Castille]

It isn't toxic if you feel bad for your character, it starts to become a toxic habit when you as a person starts to feel bad.

 

The emotional discipline and maturity it takes to tell each of these apart is likely the factor in when something goes "too far" for most people.

[allgivenover]

And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.

 

Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.

 

I realize it's a feeling I have influenced by the bad experiences I've had in XIV and not necessarily true. Having said that I'd really welcome the coming months providing empirical evidence that I am.

[Berrod Armstrong]

And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.

 

Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.

 

I realize it's a feeling I have influenced by the bad experiences I've had in XIV and not necessarily true. Having said that I'd really welcome the coming months providing empirical evidence that I am.

Well, there'll certainly be none that you're right.

[Kuzhuk]

Bleed is why I RP. Without it, I don't think I'd see much of a point in it. In fact, it's why I bother to experience narrative at all. I want to feel things but that doesn't mean that everything I feel will be pleasant or even what I was looking to feel at the time. And that's okay.

 

It's important to keep in mind that your lack of complete control over feelings is what gives those feelings meaning. If you always got exactly the response you wanted out of writing (internally and externally) there would be no challenge to it. It would rob others of any sense of agency. If the outside world cannot push back and change what you intended to happen then you're looking for a captive audience not participants in your collective fiction.

 

In my experience the biggest problems with bleed usually come about when someone knows what they want to happen and people defy their expectations. It takes maturity, skill, and personal fortitude to accept that you can't always get what you want out of RP.

 

Conflict in general is difficult to manage. Too many RPers choose characters with few faults (or faults that are hidden positives, job-interview syndrome) that they are far too attached to and then take their IC disagreements OOC because fundamentally they never intended their character to have a weakness where other people found it. I think every writer has to accept that their characters are limited by their own fallibility to some degree and we're all imperfect. It is a fact that your character will be even more imperfect than you intended.

 

Unfortunately it's very easy for critical and/or antagonistic characters to make themselves into pariahs OOC & IC when people can't exercise self-control. Those characters drive conflict which makes plot interesting, so we need them around. Therefore it's up to every individual RPer to be professional and minimize OOC/IC contamination when it's detrimental to the RPing experience.

 

Thankfully, FFXIV has been one of the better communities I've come across in this regard. It hasn't really been a problem for me yet here. I'm very heartened by that.

[Faye]

"Bleeding" usually has a negative connotation--and I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just that it's a reality and what the term has come to mean to most RPers. It's good to relate to your character, to have common interests/traits/knowledge/experiences. "Write what you know" is a well-known phrase, and while I think it's entirely possible and actually great to use writing to explore things you don't yet fully understand, the expression does have some wisdom that you need to have SOME common ground with your character and your story in order to write something coherent and semi-believable.

 

It's also natural and normal to sympathize and empathize with your character, to feel their ups and downs, to cheer for your character from time to time. If you don't, you may be a little too detached from your role-play to write something that's really moving and interesting. After all, if you don't care about your character, why should your RP partners and/or readers? Personally, I think it's all about moderation and finding role-players who share your views and goals.

 

Some people play characters to live out their fantasies of all kinds and use RP more or less as a form of wish fulfillment. I firmly believe that this inevitably leads to OOC drama, which is something I'd rather do without. But I also firmly believe RPing to live out some fantasy, or to play a self-insert, is not inherently bad. I don't really believe there's a "wrong" reason to role-play. Role-play doesn't have to mean the same thing and work the same way for each person. People are more than welcome to pursue the things they can't have IRL via RP. It's just not what I'm seeking in my RP and therefore makes our two styles sort of incompatible, so I'd rather avoid those types, but that doesn't mean they need to stop what they're doing. I could go on, but I'd pretty much just be rehashing what I've said in this thread.

[BumblingSeaBiscuit]

Why is escapism being thrown around like a bad word? Is someone roleplaying as a long-distance runner doing it wrong because they are in a wheelchair and always wanted to be a runner? What is wrong with fulfilling our dreams?

 

Nothing, but RP elitists will shit all over it.

 

I'm comfortable with being labeled an elitist.

 

And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.

 

Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.

 

I realize it's a feeling I have influenced by the bad experiences I've had in XIV and not necessarily true. Having said that I'd really welcome the coming months providing empirical evidence that I am.

Well, there'll certainly be none that you're right.

 

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I'd like to request comments like these are kept out of this thread. Specifically calling someone out on how they feel and declaring it "wrong" is not appropriate here. Likewise, attempting to bait people into an argument is also not appreciated. Please make sure that you come into this comversation with the mindset to discuss your thoughts and opinions politely and professionally. I'd prefer this be a discussion, again, and not an argument.

 

Otherwise, it is interesting to read how people view this subject, specifically after reading the article.

[Harmonixer]

So I found myself smiling at Dogberry's post. I haven't LARPed in years. My experience with it only lasted a short year, and it mostly fold in on itself simply because of cost issues and the usual drama llamas running about. I never got to get really involved, and the one overnight experience I had was really just not a very pleasant one overall.

 

Reading his post however, was very interesting though. I can't imagine being that paranoid after such an experience. I do applaud him for his ability to carry on though.

 

Now that I've said that, I suppose it raises the question if I'm able to separate my characters from myself.

 

I'm fortunate that I often play characters that I generally want nothing to do with in life. I've had plenty of abrasive, hateful, racist and just downright vile characters. I think it has more to do with my observations of others and things done to me and me as a person, trying to understand and apply it differently. I could never bring myself to harm people the way some of my characters have, the desire isn't there. At least, I'm fairly certain! It's the matter of theatrics and entertainment. I generally RP for the benefit of others and seeing other people happier is what drives me.

 

By nature, I like helping people. I like watching nice characters (the good guys, whatever) overcome obstacles I place before them. As I type this, I realize that a large part of me does enjoy it. A contradiction. I like to help people! But I also love to prey on weakness and challenge others and myself. Maybe the thought process is 'if I make it harder for others, they will improve and thusly make it harder for me in return'. I think that's me trying to identify my own 'bleed'.

[Dogberry]

Reading his post however, was very interesting though. I can't imagine being that paranoid after such an experience. I do applaud him for his ability to carry on though.

 

I would say that's largely because Dystopia Rising is a post-apocalypse zombie horror game. I pay $65 a month plus gear and camping expenses to have the crap scared out of me.

[Harmonixer]

Ah-hah! Well that seems more reasonable then. Certainly getting your money's worth!

 

I will say that also appreciate OP's post. Really got me thinking on the subject.

[OttoVann]

Why is escapism being thrown around like a bad word? Is someone roleplaying as a long-distance runner doing it wrong because they are in a wheelchair and always wanted to be a runner? What is wrong with fulfilling our dreams?

 

Nothing, but RP elitists will shit all over it.

 

Told myself I wouldn't post here, but here goes.

 

Blending makes better characters, in my opinion. But it has also got this stigma as of late that "a person who blends in their RP" isn't "stable" enough to separate IC from OOC. Which I do not agree with. But then it'll be argued that "blending a little it OK everyone!", but who judges that amount?

 

There's been people who can't easily or cleanly enough seperate IC/OOC but this site, and most RP communities I've seen expand those mishaps to the whole and unanimously denounce it. If that makes sense. Where bleeding stops and ends is hard to say anyways, and I'm not even sure where that line is. I think I do a good enough job though, and my flavors of RP are most hazard prone to that sort of negative IC/OOC blend. Rambling, ignore me.

[Gone.]

Bleed is like ERP; most people do it, but few will make the admittance due to silly community-driven stigmas.

 

Any character worth their weight will have part of their creator invested, as well, no question about it. Those that would shun someone for that is missing both the how and why of fiction in its entirety.

[Gaspard]

I've always said, and also believe that bleed-through is something that 'cannot' be stopped in roleplay, in no fashion whatsoever. Our emotions aren't as simple as that we can file them into Out-of-character and In-Character. If what we roleplay invokes emotional responses from us, they 'will' impact us. And it should. Even if someone has such a distant view as seeing roleplay as a 'writing exercise', if it doesn't invoke emotions in you you're not really comitting to it. Think of it this way;

 

If you can't feel emotionally touched or impacted by your own play, how do you expect others to be?

 

 

The trick to it all is to be aware that it is inevitable, even necessary in some parts and still be able to deal and enjoy the various emotions you get from it, without allowing it to impact your realistical portray of the your character as you've envisioned him, or allowing it to be the festering grounds for OOC drama. Up to this day, my fondest memories of Roleplay are those that invoked a degree of fear and misery in me, or sometimes happiness and accomplishment. 

 

Or put simply ; Roleplayers play roles, and therein aren't writers solely, they're actors. And every Role, every Character comes with his own emotions, state of mind and so on. The more indepth you get, the blurrier everything gets. For a more profound example ; See the difference between traditional acting and method acting. Method actors often times deliver the most stunning performances, but also suffer form a bleed of their own. Probably the most prominent example of our current age would be Heath Ledger.

 

 

So the trick to it all is basically ; Go as deep as you can aslong you're comfortable with the depth of bleed through you allow, and make sure to solely restrict this OOC/IC bleeding/blending to your character. If it does get to you on a personal level, out of that, and stands in danger of coloring your OOC life or OOC actions, take a step back, and sort it out.

[Seriphyn]

Kale does not shy away from adversarial confrontation given his background as a soldier, and thus more often than not he finds himself in verbal arguments with other characters, especially those who fail to meet his very high standards, or people who are otherwise "offensive" to his world view (such as tribal Miqo'te men). When he does get into an argument, I find myself out-of-game getting an adrenaline rush of sorts and/or otherwise charged up, highly investing my energy into delivering a good performance in playing someone who wants to aggressively assert his point without resorting to physical confrontation.

 

As someone who has done theatre and stage work, I see this as exactly identical as being required to generate that same energy to deliver a proper act to the audience. I remember being yelled at by the director for being an utter wimp about failing to really put the aggressive energy into playing this particularly irate butler who was shouting at all his servants.

 

The difference between this being "good bleed" versus "bad bleed" is that I am not directing the energy in a negative manner towards the player behind the target character. At most, the character, but more frequently, the confrontation itself, and a determination to give a good performance. The same principle is behind playing a competitive game and similarly feeling very competitive and energetic about the situation; you're not hating the player, are you? 

 

Of course, if the target player is leaning more towards "alibi", the confrontation can be a little dull if that same energy is not reciprocated, with Kale looking like an overenergetic dog trying to bait a cat into play. Funnily enough, I openly acknowledge that in an emote, something akin to Kale "not having any belligerent energy to feed off of".

[Dravus]

Why is escapism being thrown around like a bad word? Is someone roleplaying as a long-distance runner doing it wrong because they are in a wheelchair and always wanted to be a runner? What is wrong with fulfilling our dreams?

 

Nothing, but RP elitists will shit all over it.

 

It has nothing to do with 'elitism' (not that elitism is necessarily a bad thing but that's a debate for a different thread) and everything to do with staying safe. Role-players who allow 'bleeding' to occur are often massive magnets for drama. Not the funny sort of drama either - but the sort that can and has completely destroyed friendships, guilds and entire projects.

 

I've little patience for 'bleeding' myself. I've gotten rather good at spotting the warning signs and distancing myself from those who don't learn from it.

 

Escapism isn't always a bad thing, though in my experience the role-players who embrace it fully tend to be those who cause all sorts of strife for their brethren. A bit of escapism is fine, but if it goes beyond 'a bit' and ends up as a substitute for a healthy life then it can end very badly and negatively impact not only the role-player in question but those around them.

[Hyrist]

The problem is 'staying safe' results in having a small circle to roleplay with and that's it. In the long term it stagnates things and the 'bleed' becomes people bleeding away from participation.

 

To keep things interesting, you sometimes have to take a bit of risk.

 

This article is well written. There is good and bad bleed, and those at varying levels of experience in dealing with it are going to have their own problems going forward with it. It's an important part of the developmental process of roleplaying. 

 

You play, you make mistakes, and you grow. There seems to be a sentiment among a group that they must, at all times, avoid potential risk factors. And while I can agree that if you're not able to handle matters as they present themselves, and even if you do tackle risks there is a cut-off point, that it's ok to play safe. Please keep in mind - taking those risks, or going out of your way to assist those who are struggling with these matters actually grows the community.

 

People don't develop from being shut away. Often times, they grow resentful and as a result become even more stubborn and set in their ways. In the end it just breaks a community apart.

 

I've always been more of a fan of an initially open approach, where, if they display themselves as person that's worthwhile to spend time with OOCly, then it becomes worth the investment to work with them to improve IC aspects. So long as the OOC relationship remains positive, that can always continue. And the larger Roleplaying Community can only stand to improve from that.

[Dravus]

You can certainly take a risk and expand beyond a set circle of friends. I'm rather open myself in regards to interacting with outsiders but after playing numerous MMO's over the years I'll readily admit to having a low threshold to 'bleeding'.

 

Now if I see the warning signs I usually just cut someone away and move on. Many will find that harsh but I'm here to have fun and relax, not risk having drama erupt around me or tread on eggshells with everything that I do.

 

I do offer additional chances once the dust is settled though.

[Kage]

There's good and bad bleed.

 

As a newcomer to RP that is... easier? to anthropomorphically? relate I found myself in a very bad patch earlier this year while RPing. It's easy as hell to not become so bad when you're RPing wolves mang. You can definitely say I hit a point where I had some bad OOC/IC bleeding going on that negatively impacted how I felt about the RP I was engaged in. I had patches where I was upset about how I wasn't being involved with certain characters. When I was RPing, it felt like I was being called out on for not RPing the where and when and the how others wanted me to RP. So in that process I started to negatively bleed. The thing is, no one really told me. It took my own analyzing of how it was affecting me to realize how I must have been affecting others.

 

One thing I've seen is that there are people who will try to help those inexperienced to get past this. Some people are patient enough to try and help people realize "your character RP should not demand all of my character RP and my time" and that "my ooc time with others should not make you become jealous" and that it certainly should not have an IC reaction when my OOC time is spent with my own friends.. Some times this does lead to drama or backlash because it becomes the toxicity that people want to avoid in their RP. But I'd like to think and hope that some peoples' patience will have helped others recognize the more negative bleeding.

 

Dumping everyone who even shows the slightest hint of negative bleed is harsh from my own personal bias because I've been there. Recently. Perhaps I was being told that I was doing it but it never felt like it. I do wish that when it started to happen there was someone to tell me "Do you fucking realize some of the shit you're pulling? You might need someone to talk it out because it feels like there's some shit you want in your RP because you aren't getting it in life." Sometimes, for us who may start to negatively bleed, we don't know what we're doing. Call it selfishness. A lot of times, some people are just toxic players but not all of us are malicious manipulative emotional abusers.

 

How can we cope with bleed, if we're not able to recognize it? If we're not experienced enough to do so?

 

I've not engaged in RP for months because I'm seriously terrified that I'll find myself doing that same stuff again. I didn't realize it before. What if I don't again? I don't want to be -that- person.