Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Kellach Woods]

Can't you still access Coerthas and Dravania with the expansion and without finishing the MSQ?

 

Is there a point to do so (and from what I understand a lot of it will be behind the flying mounts which likely will require a MSQ unlock)?

 

It's the same as stepping into Mor Dhona as a level 15. You can. Doesn't mean there's any point for you to do that.

[Gegenji]

Can't you still access Coerthas and Dravania with the expansion and without finishing the MSQ?

 

Is there a point to do so (and from what I understand a lot of it will be behind the flying mounts which likely will require a MSQ unlock)?

 

It's the same as stepping into Mor Dhona as a level 15. You can. Doesn't mean there's any point for you to do that.

 

... So wouldn't going into these areas below proper iLevel also be possible, then, and just suck to do so (minus the flying stuff if it is indeed behind MSQ)? It'd be much akin to the Level 15 in Mor Dhona, just with iLevel instead of class level. :?

[Warren Castille]

... So wouldn't going into these areas below proper iLevel also be possible, then, and just suck to do so (minus the flying stuff if it is indeed behind MSQ)? It'd be much akin to the Level 15 in Mor Dhona, just with iLevel instead of class level. :?

 

Basically this.

 

Sure, go fight Titan in just AF and GC weapons. I'm sure that'll go fiiiiine.

[Kellach Woods]

... So wouldn't going into these areas below proper iLevel also be possible, then, and just suck to do so (minus the flying stuff if it is indeed behind MSQ)? It'd be much akin to the Level 15 in Mor Dhona, just with iLevel instead of class level. :?

 

Nope - 'cause if you can complete quests and advance story you'll catch up in iLevel pretty fast. Maybe not anything ideal but enough that you can keep advancing. The Level 15 in that example simply cannot ever possess gear enough that will do that.

 

Actually I just thought of a thing.

 

WHAT IF THE FIRST STUFF IN HEAVENSWARD WE CAN CRAFT IS LEVEL 50 STUFF PRECISELY TO ALLEVIATE THIS ISSUE?

[Gegenji]

... So wouldn't going into these areas below proper iLevel also be possible, then, and just suck to do so (minus the flying stuff if it is indeed behind MSQ)? It'd be much akin to the Level 15 in Mor Dhona, just with iLevel instead of class level. :?

 

Nope - 'cause if you can complete quests and advance story you'll catch up in iLevel pretty fast. Maybe not anything ideal but enough that you can keep advancing. The Level 15 in that example simply cannot ever possess gear enough that will do that.

 

So... what is your argument now, then? I'm a bit lost.

 

Also, there's already i90+ gear that is craftable. Just harder to do so. However, they'll need "generic" new 51-60 gear that will likely be easy to craft. So, add that to CT/ST steamrolls, tomes, and picking up i90 gear in the Snowcloak-tier of dungeons (i80 requirement to get in, drops i90 gear), hopefully getting past the iLevel roadblock shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[Warren Castille]

It's not much of an issue as-is. There's plenty of readily-available i90 equipment on the market board. If you're playing an alt, buy them some. If you're a new player, you won't notice anyway because you're NEW and you'll presumably be working through the story as it drops in front of you.

 

The sky isn't falling.

[Kellach Woods]

So... what is your argument now, then? I'm a bit lost.

 

Also, there's already i90+ gear that is craftable. Just harder to do so. However, they'll need "generic" new 51-60 gear that will likely be easy to craft. So, add that to CT/ST steamrolls, tomes, and picking up i90 gear in the Snowcloak-tier of dungeons (i80 requirement to get in, drops i90 gear), hopefully getting past the iLevel roadblock shouldn't be too much of an issue.

All right, now find 7 other bodies who want to go through Chrysalis/SoF. You have no resources outside PF. We are post Heavensward.

 

Have fun.

 

The iLevel is actually less of a concern to me because of that (and chances are we'll see some pieces in the 51-55 range that go down to 48-49 just so you know). It's more the fact that you still need to find peeps to do those quests with that'll be roadblocking.

 

Another way to alleviate this would be by adding 2.1 to 2.55 to the Main Scenario Roulette and convert it to an alternate low-level path that grants you extra rewards if you do it at 60.

[Warren Castille]

For all we know they will. The DF is bound to get some overhauling since we're about to have a hojillion lv50 dungeons. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the "Challenge Roulette" where they drop you into required stories at minimum ilvl.

[Gegenji]

All right, now find 7 other bodies who want to go through Chrysalis/SoF. You have no resources outside PF. We are post Heavensward.

 

Have fun.

 

The iLevel is actually less of a concern to me because of that (and chances are we'll see some pieces in the 51-55 range that go down to 48-49 just so you know). It's more the fact that you still need to find peeps to do those quests with that'll be roadblocking.

 

Another way to alleviate this would be by adding 2.1 to 2.55 to the Main Scenario Roulette and convert it to an alternate low-level path that grants you extra rewards if you do it at 60.

 

So it isn't an issue of iLevel requirements anymore and more people not wanting to run the Trials, which I can totally understand. Heck, I see plenty of it already before Heavensward is even out. When Chrysalis came out, lots of folks hated it. SoF came out, and people hate it - and some still hate doing Chrysalis even with the whole "LB the tear" simplifying tactic.

 

And I was "smart" enough to do it three times - once on Gogon, once on Chachan, and then again recently when powering Judge through as he skirted the iLevels at the lowest common denominator.

 

Hopefully the nerf to Steps means it'll be easier to do all around, including for the new folks that jump in and are trying to power through the MSQ to get to the new stuff.

 

But I could totally see that being a thing, though. Low-Level Main Scenario Roulette and High-Level Main Scenario Roulette seems like a feasible thing to do. As would just keeping Chrysalis and SoF in the Trial roulette (I mean, the level 49 Garlean Trial is still in there).

[Kellach Woods]

That'd be interesting and definitely a way to revamp the thing that would alleviate this situation entirely.

 

Just make the gear from that dyeable with some exceptions and people will lose their collective minds.

[Jonexe]

People seem to be missing the fact that they will very likely (and have already started) changing up the end game as it gets closer and closer to Heavensward.

 

They've already added Echo to most of the MSQ stuff, and Steps was already nerfed. It's likely they'll nerf it more once 3.0 launches.

 

People worried about item level are also missing the fact that there's dozens of ways they could correct these issues once the content is no longer 'current'. It could be as simple as adding various gear rewards to the post-50 MSQ rewards (since 'new' players will likely use that as part of leveling). They could modify the dungeons so they drop more than one item, and those items are level 90+ (like Snowcloak and others already do). They could do further nerfs and drop the item level.

 

Somewhere along the line they're going to change things and hand out some gear; especially considering they said current 130+ gear is only going to last you to "around 55."

 

If you're not ready for Heavensward at launch, don't buy it, and wait and see how they change things. Or you could actively work towards it now. If it's something you care about it's really not a difficult thing to do. On top of all the catch up mechanics in place, you have this wonderful forum here full of people who are willing to help knock out trials and dungeons if you but ask.

[Steel Wolf]

Good points all, and nobody is doubting the willingness of this game's community (mostly) to help out players...but it is a very odd design choice, ESPECIALLY if they intend to draw in new players to their game with all the noise being made about their expansion.

 

It's gating. Gating is never taken well, and it's taken even less well when there are dozens of other MMOs that don't pull the same stunt.

 

Despite whatever amounts of nerfing are done, if someone is going to buy the game because they think the Machinist is cool, and then they find out that the Machinist is not only not available at character creation, but requires you to go through the entire game's story? Nothing about the community or the nerfs done or anything else will be heard. All you'll hear that person speak about is how this game is a ripoff because the new classes are walled behind 50+ levels of crap.

[Kellach Woods]

Relying on the community to fix mistakes the developers themselves have made, that's nothing new. But suffice it to say that it gets jarring after a while.

 

Especially since it's an actual design issue rather than a mod.

[Dravus]

Relying on the community to fix mistakes the developers themselves have made, that's nothing new. But suffice it to say that it gets jarring after a while.

 

Especially since it's an actual design issue rather than a mod.

 

It's completely subjective as to whether they're 'mistakes' in the first place. FFXIV's developers have been amazing so far and whilst they're willing to compromise they do have a vision for the game that they want to stick with.

 

...and I don't think anyone can really claim that the developers don't fix their mistakes when one compares 1.0 to 2.0...

[Martiallais]

Relying on the community to fix mistakes the developers themselves have made, that's nothing new. But suffice it to say that it gets jarring after a while.

 

Especially since it's an actual design issue rather than a mod.

 

It's completely subjective as to whether they're 'mistakes' in the first place. FFXIV's developers have been amazing so far and whilst they're willing to compromise they do have a vision for the game that they want to stick with.

 

...and I don't think anyone can really claim that the developers don't fix their mistakes when one compares 1.0 to 2.0...

 

They haven't had to nuke the world again, that's for sure.

[V'aleera]

...and I don't think anyone can really claim that the developers don't fix their mistakes

Housing.

[Sophia_Grave]

I don't have a problem gating new content for the most part, but new classes should most definitely NOT be gated. Identity is a big part of games, especially in MMOs. Its pretty awful to force someone to play through 50 levels and another 40 item level after that just to be the job they want to be. God help them if they start out as a DPS; that's a good 30-40 hours of play, plus queues, 1st job exp penalty, learning the game, getting used to controls, rotations to learn, leveling for cross class, etc to suffer through just to start again as a lv30.

 

That's utterly insane.

[111]

I don't have an issue with the gating, they don't want to make the entire 1-30 leveling experience for 3 new classes, and they don't want to have to gate out the abilities like the other classes need.

 

From what I understand the new classes will start at 30, where they can give you a concise set of class abilities, and not have to worry about doling them out piece by piece as you learn the job.

 

I certainly don't want to do 1-30 3 more times.

[111]

To clarify, a big reason why FFXIV so so successful, is that 1-50 is like a giant tutorial, that teaches everyone how to play.

 

They still want everyone to go through that tutorial, its essential to having a group of lvl 50 players who are at least semi comfortable with their job and class. It is very likely they just didn't have the time and resources to fit that into the new classes, and also the lore would not make sense for them to do so.

 

I mean, it was the same thing with WoW when wrath of the lich king came out, you needed a max level character to make a deathknight.

[Xavieraux Reinardes]

To clarify, a big reason why FFXIV so so successful, is that 1-50 is like a giant tutorial, that teaches everyone how to play.

 

They still want everyone to go through that tutorial, its essential to having a group of lvl 50 players who are at least semi comfortable with their job and class. It is very likely they just didn't have the time and resources to fit that into the new classes, and also the lore would not make sense for them to do so.

 

I mean, it was the same thing with WoW when wrath of the lich king came out, you needed a max level character to make a deathknight.

 

When WOTLK came out you only needed a character with a level above 55 (the Death Knight started at 55) in order to make a Death Knight.

 

Max Level during Burning Crusade was 70, and max level during Wrath of the Lich King was 80.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but Death Knights in WoW are not a good example. As well, in World of Warcraft the skills needed to get to 55 did not at all equate to understanding how your class worked.

[BroodingFicus]

I'm just trying to get a feel for how disappointed I'm going to be if they do what all this sounds like. I've had an ongoing plan since the new healing class was announced. I made an alt, leveled him to 30 conjurer and held onto his Fantasia. Since I've been sitting pretty waiting for the expansion so I could fantasia him and pay for a name change and continue on as the new class. Is it 100% confirmed classes are gated by item level/main story? If so I mean....especially for anyone who rps and has an attachment to their main characters appearance etc, that means we won't be able to touch Au Ra or the new classes without suffering through the story and leveling process again as a class and race we don't want. That would be...idiotic frankly. Its like offering someone an omelet and then handing them a chicken. Oh sorry, you'll have to wait.

[Sophia_Grave]

The new jobs are gated. The Au Ra race is not.

[111]

I know many people do not like it for RP reasons, and I understand your reasoning.

 

However unfortunately this game is not built around RP, and this decision was very clearly made from a PVE standpoint. Heavensward will be harder and less forgiving than the original game, and Square Enix wants to make sure you're ready for it.

 

If a brand new player isn't willing to go through the original game, and just wants to hop into new content, well then tough luck, this game isn't for them.

 

The unintended consequence is alts for RP and such, however I think that is on the bottom of Squares list of concerns.

[Gone.]

The MSQ gating and item level requirements are two of my only complaints with FFXIV. I would enjoy the game much more without the tedium of either and I worry about the state of the game years from now if they keep things as-is; it's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Item level in particular has always baffled me as a design choice. Why not just go full horizontal at level cap that way the gear you find actually has some long-term value? I just don't get it.

 

Also, while the story in FFXIV is certainly competent, it is not the main draw for me, not by a longshot; the game world and attention detail are what draw me here as well as the varying mechanics at max level. It's an expansive, nuanced game hidden behind numerous locked doors.

 

Designs flaws like this are why to this date I will not rate FFXIV a full five-star game, but a four. It could be, but not until the annoyances are addressed.

[Kellach Woods]

If a brand new player isn't willing to go through the original game, and just wants to hop into new content, well then tough luck, this game isn't for them.

 

That's less of a concern than how many new players will there be at those levels? Most of the gating content is group-based.

 

People are already having a tough time to do MSQ dungeons if they're a certain class while leveling. Not because they're difficult but because nobody queues for low-level unless they absolutely need to. Couple that with the typical lack of tanks/healers in MMOs, there's the recipe for a full blown disaster. Around as bad as the original Tri-Disaster.