Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Wymsical]

I'm honestly a little surprised people seemed to have thought the new jobs were going to start at level 1 (or were hoping for it). SE's stated they didn't intend to add any new classes for the foreseeable future and all other jobs start at level 30. Having a job class that starts at level 1 would just throw the whole thing off. So at the very least, everything from now on will most likely be a Job that starts at level 30, even if they leave off the 'finishing the MSQ' part. I'm sure that's a frustration to some people but at this point it wouldn't make a lot of sense to change it.

 

Additionally, to everyone who doesn't want to finish the MSQ... it's really not that hard or long, I promise. I did it from Leviathan to GRAND FINALE in about two nights as a DPS at ilevel 90; albeit skipping cutscenes and teleporting everywhere. Queues (as a DPS) and cutscenes take up the vast majority of the time doing the MSQ and Steps has been nerfed so heavily that my group of almost entirely new people finished it before the explosive crates.

 

The concern about queues for old content is a valid one but given what has been said about adding gear and exp to the MSQ, I can't imagine they'll neglect making something to really encourage people doing the old queues. Additionally, there will always be people leveling new classes or new characters. 

 

With how the combat system works, people who 'hate' all of the old classes would almost assuredly have to level them at some point eventually with cross-class skills (and those will probably never go away) being such an important part of the basic endgame meta. Also, leveling WHM has taught me more about being an effective SCH and will almost assuredly lend to playing the rather complex-sounding AST, for example. The new Jobs honestly don't sound like they're something a new player would benefit from being able to immediately pick up.

 

I understand that some of you really don't like the choices in the gameplay, but saying that it's inherently bad design and/or completely unfriendly to all new players is a bit much. Progression is a huge part of XIV and these three new Jobs are pretty clearly meant to be a sort of reward.

[Naunet]

The new Jobs honestly don't sound like they're something a new player would benefit from being able to immediately pick up.

 

I'll make the decision about what is too complicated for me to handle, thanks. I don't need a game hand-holding me all "Oh but sweetie, that's too much for you right now."

 

By the way, very few if any have suggested the new jobs start at level 1, so the first chunk of your post is largely irrelevant. What people do want is to be able to access those jobs at level 30 without first having to go through 50 levels on a completely different class, finish the MSQ, and do whatever else you need to do to get to Ishgard.

[Gone.]

I have no problem with having people hit level 30 before playing AST, MCN and DRK. They are, after all, classified as jobs.

 

What I do take issue with is locking them behind weeks worth of questing when there's just no legitimate reason to in the first place. Play style can make or break a player's interest in a game; the more options available early on, the better.

 

Also I don't think anyone has a problem with completing the MSQ the one time to continue the overarching plot. It's doing it on alts where it becomes problematic and frankly unnecessary.

[Wymsical]

I'll make the decision about what is too complicated for me to handle, thanks. I don't need a game hand-holding me all "Oh but sweetie, that's too much for you right now."

 

That level of condescension actually wasn't what I had in mind. One of the major criticisms I've seen of XIV across most reviews or articles about it is that the game does very little hand-holding when it could stand to do more. It's no secret that a large amount of players don't really know even the basic meta of their class (examples: pets on Obey instead of Sic, WHM using Regen a lot more) and it's often considered a failing of the game. The feel I've gotten from the info on the new Jobs is that they do have some mechanics that would be difficult to understand if you're not very acquainted with the game. 

 

Imagine being a new player, you grab AST and suddenly all of your old skills are gone with a brand new lineup encompassing everything from 1-30, coupled with the RNG card mechanic and whatever else they have. You essentially have to relearn your entire Job right then at a level when the game is starting to ramp up its difficulty. It might not sound hard to someone who's been playing the game for a while (thus the emphasis on new players) but I've helped people brand new to the game before and they were often fairly overwhelmed with how complex XIV can be.

 

By the way, very few if any have suggested the new jobs start at level 1, so the first chunk of your post is largely irrelevant. What people do want is to be able to access those jobs at level 30 without first having to go through 50 levels on a completely different class, finish the MSQ, and do whatever else you need to do to get to Ishgard.

 

I've actually seen a good few returning players complaining about them not starting at level 1 since the announcement, thus the comment.

 

Also I don't think anyone has a problem with completing the MSQ the one time to continue the overarching plot. It's doing it on alts where it becomes problematic and frankly unnecessary.

 

I'll agree that this game is very unfriendly to alts (I don't play them usually, so I forget about that). An account-wide 'MSQ done' thing wouldn't be a bad idea.

[BroodingFicus]

I'm honestly a little surprised people seemed to have thought the new jobs were going to start at level 1 (or were hoping for it). SE's stated they didn't intend to add any new classes for the foreseeable future and all other jobs start at level 30. Having a job class that starts at level 1 would just throw the whole thing off. So at the very least, everything from now on will most likely be a Job that starts at level 30, even if they leave off the 'finishing the MSQ' part. I'm sure that's a frustration to some people but at this point it wouldn't make a lot of sense to change it.

 

As was mentioned I don't think anyone did. Up until a few weeks ago I thought you had to be level 30 of an existing class to start it which I was more than ok with. I leveled a conjurer with a ridiculous name and became a white mage at 30 and then sat there with my fantasia waiting to turn him into an Au Ra and go pick up my AST job quest. It was only later, after purchasing HW, that they clarified it and everyone sorta realized the MSQ was a gate. No other job requires you to do the /entire/ MSQ. Sylph Management, a level 20 quest I think, is the doorway quest to being able to get the job quest line started. As long as you were 30 on your class and 15 on your cross class, you could go get it at that point. So continuing this tradition would actually not have altered anything at all since it is what they have been doing from the start. Which is why so many thought this is how it would be. More or less the new Jobs are just that. Jobs with no base class. It stands to reason they should start at 30, which they do...you just can't touch them because they locked the quest givers away. 

 

The only logical reason is because they are trying to keep the story cohesive but even that is flimsy. Au Ra change that, as has already been said. On top of that most of the jobs we can get already were not given to us by a 'guild'. We were special snowflakes who learned the trade from wanderers and passersby on almost all occasions that I can think of. They essentially made three new jobs but gave them guilds like classes, but kept a job like level requirement and then locked them behind the MSQ. Its all very strange. 

 

As to this set up helping anyone learn their role? It won't. People will rush through because they are not enjoying themselves. There is also no restriction that says you have to be a class of the same role. I could level a bard and then switch to AST if I wanted too. Is it smart? No. Will people do it? Yes. FFXIV is actually pretty good in my mind, at teaching you your role the way things are. It ramps up slowly if you follow the MSQ which is why it doesn't make sense for you to do it as a different class than the one you want end game. I'm not saying it is a poor design choice. I am saying it is pointless and is only causing frustration. 

 

..also please yes. Account wide MSQ would solve so many issues because this story line is only going to take longer and longer as FFXIV continues, which I hope it does for many years to come. It also would have solved the MSQ issue for the new jobs, at least for veteran players who have kept up with the story. New players/returning ones not so much but it would have been as step in the right direction that didn't hurt anyone else.

[Naunet]

I'll make the decision about what is too complicated for me to handle, thanks. I don't need a game hand-holding me all "Oh but sweetie, that's too much for you right now."

 

That level of condescension actually wasn't what I had in mind. One of the major criticisms I've seen of XIV across most reviews or articles about it is that the game does very little hand-holding when it could stand to do more. It's no secret that a large amount of players don't really know even the basic meta of their class (examples: pets on Obey instead of Sic, WHM using Regen a lot more) and it's often considered a failing of the game. The feel I've gotten from the info on the new Jobs is that they do have some mechanics that would be difficult to understand if you're not very acquainted with the game. 

 

Imagine being a new player, you grab AST and suddenly all of your old skills are gone with a brand new lineup encompassing everything from 1-30, coupled with the RNG card mechanic and whatever else they have. You essentially have to relearn your entire Job right then at a level when the game is starting to ramp up its difficulty. It might not sound hard to someone who's been playing the game for a while (thus the emphasis on new players) but I've helped people brand new to the game before and they were often fairly overwhelmed with how complex XIV can be.

 

Wait, people actually have argued that FFXIV doesn't do enough hand-holding? The game that babies you 1-50 with fights you can do in your sleep? (There's no ramp up in difficulty at all while leveling...)

 

I mean, learning a new class is learning a new class. It's no different from one MMO to the next, and I can pretty much guarantee that learning AST isn't really going to be any different than picking up any other job. Yeah, you get new abilities - same thing that happens if you start playing a new class in this or any other MMO. And people handled death knights just fine in WoW (it helped that your abilities were handed out to you gradually over the course of 4 levels), so... I really don't think players need to be protected from the ~*complexity*~ of AST (or the other new Heavensward jobs). I know you didn't really intend it on such a condescending level, but that's essentially what that kind of defense is doing.

[Warren Castille]

Making fights sleepwalk easy isn't the same as explaining how to do things. I'll divert you to the OF and heaps of pages about how much Steps of Faith needed to be nerfed as a point.

 

Edit: Or Titan HM.

 

Preemptive edit: Or Twisters.

 

Preemptive edit: Or .

[Kellach Woods]

It doesn't help that abilities that should be baseline for a class (E.G. A single target taunt for tanks) are locked behind a specific class and fuck you if you never wanted to play that class in the first place.

 

In terms of classes I'd say that's where the game does zero handholding. Too many skills are considered baseline and yet require you to play something you may not have wanted to play in the first place. It's such a problem that they changed how crafting'd be handled in HW because of the fact that you needed 50 on every crafting class to even be decent at crafting.

 

In so far as the MSQ is concerned, they're trying to fast track new players because in their own words, Heavensward is just as long as the base game, except stretched over only 10 levels. Makes sense that if this is gonna be the relevant content you don't want the new dudes lingering behind for too long.

 

They seem to be fixing a lot of the stuff y'all take for granted. It'll be more difficult (from interviews they're saying 1v1 of equal level should be what you seek out, two is manageable with good play, but more than that and you should expect to get wrecked), but I expect far less bullshit (a new mechanic blindsiding you, DRGs/Limit Breaks getting fucked from animation lock, etc.)

[Naunet]

Making fights sleepwalk easy isn't the same as explaining how to do things. I'll divert you to the OF and heaps of pages about how much Steps of Faith needed to be nerfed as a point.

 

Edit: Or Titan HM.

 

Preemptive edit: Or Twisters.

 

Preemptive edit: Or .

 

People always scream for nerfs. In every MMO. So no, challenging content (or lackthereof) isn't where the handholding is or should be.

 

If people are so concerned about the wash of newbies who would be oh-so-terribly confused by leveling to 30 and picking up astrologian/machinist/dark knight, I would argue that the better suggestion would be to spread out their skill acquisition a little more. Rather than make said delicate newbies play 50 levels and run outdated end game content on a class they may not want.

 

Though I didn't actually find Titan HM (or Twisters) that challenging. One is just memorizing a pattern; the other is literally just run in a little circle whenever you see a cast.

[Warren Castille]

Though I didn't actually find Titan HM (or Twisters) that challenging. One is just memorizing a pattern; the other is literally just run in a little circle whenever you see a cast.

 

Solve for those who did, then. People will always cry for nerf, sure, but people will also always whine for access. See people who didn't clear T5 complaining they couldn't do T6, people who couldn't beat T9 wanting to move into T10 and people without subs wanting to be catered to, despite having not given SE money for X months.

[Aduu Avagnar]

If you bring up Death Knights as an example of something that was done well and people had no problems with, I am going to laugh.

 

Most people that played them as DPS were fine, DPS isn't a very technical job in WoW, at least to get decent numbers. However, the people that started tanking as them were terrible. Sure, they got better, but it took a while post Wrath, people were still bitching about it near the launch of Cataclysm.

 

Also, RE: Titan HM. The number of people who couldn't manage it for various reasons was insane. I knew people that still hadn't managed it for several months after getting 50 cause of groups, lag, or other issues. There is a reason why Free Companys such as Blacklisted were offering free runs through it.

[Naunet]

People bitched about DKs largely because they were a new thing to bitch about.  Hunters needed at least a little bit of a break! I raided with many a highly skilled DK - tank and dps alike - and any player worth their salt knew enough to recognize the important tools they brought to raids.

 

I recognize that there are going to be certain classes in any MMO that get stereotyped. I also recognize that some classes might have a steeper learning curve, while some might be easier, some middle-of-the-pack, etc. Just because a class is "challenging", though, is no reason to try and protect the poor hapless players from it. That's a sure-fire way of boring your skilled players to death and really, what good would a little newbie get leveling a completely different class up only to have to switch to astrologian/dark knight/machinist anyway? They're STILL going to have to deal with a swath of new abilities when they do make the switch.

 

As a side-comment, I realize that a lot of people have had trouble with things like Titan HM. To this day it still baffles me, though. I could dodge those patterns in my sleep and solo-healed the fight in half regular AF gear. >_>

[Kellach Woods]

Dunno if you're on PS3, but I hear a lot of complaints on mechanics coming from PS3 folks. It's one of the few things this game has in common with DCUO.

[Zyrusticae]

 

I was talking about this with someone else just a few minutes ago, and this is my stance on it.

 

I don't have that mindset, no.  I play the game for a specific role as opposed to a specific class.  With that said, however, I abjectly refuse to condemn or belittle someone for looking at the game differently.

 

Not everyone is going to view the game the way I do.  I have an almost harsh, "You do what is necessary for the raid's success, because that is the goal and your personal enjoyment is secondary in a group scenario."  In World of Warcraft, I leveled multiple characters of the same class and role (i.e. multiple Priests, Shaman, Druids, etc) for the purposes of class-stacking and split runs with my raid group.  When I found out that I couldn't play my favorite and preferred spec in our raid because they needed me to play the spec that I quite literally detested, I sucked it up and swapped to that spec and geared for it.  Because, for me, the success of my raid was way more important.

 

But that's my mindset, and it won't be everyone's mindset, nor should it be.  And I do remember how long it took for me to branch out from my original spec and class when I first started playing, and WoW was a much easier game to level in, given that I had all of those shiny quests and didn't have to worry about cross-class abilities.  If someone only likes WHM and that's the only thing that's keeping them going, that's totally okay.  It's not my mindset, and it never will be, but they have a right to that mindset.  It's not stupid, wrong, or even narrowminded.  Sometimes you just really fall in love with one playstyle and end up hating another (reference: I adore Holy Priest, I detest Disc, but I play them both in WoW. I do know people who refuse to play one spec or another).  There's nothing wrong with that.

 

I think where you're getting confused is that I am referring to outright refusing to play a game - not even attempting to try it out - because the given classes don't appeal to you immediately as being 'narrowminded', NOT simply having a preference for one role or one class or the other.

 

I consider a certain amount of willingness to tread new territory and try out unfamiliar things to be a basic part of modern living, so yes, I DO consider it unhealthy when someone displays that level of stagnation.

 

On the other hand, if someone has actually experienced all of those things and given the game a fair shake, that's an entirely different matter. In that case, you have actual experience to fall back on, and obviously I cannot convince you that your experiences were somehow 'wrong' (like, duh). But that wasn't the scenario that was originally outlined.

 

In the end, I remain wholly unconvinced that the number of players who are going to be turned off of the game entirely for lack of a specific class is anything more than a tiny minority. I also believe that a number (but not all) of the people complaining about the lack simply don't like the game in general, in which case classes still don't actually fix anything because their issues are with the core gameplay loop, something that would require a radical restructuring of the game to fix.

 

All that being said, I am, again, in favor of some restructuring to make the game less alt-unfriendly. Shared retainers, an account-wide 'MSQ-completed' flag, and other such niceties would go a LONG way towards this. I am also not terribly opposed to the new job masters simply being located outside of Ishgard.

 

I'm just saying that, in the end, Squeenix likely isn't going to be feeling much hurt from this decision. They're certainly not going to hear the end of it, however. Folks sure like to make their voices heard.

[Kellach Woods]

I've done pettier than that.

 

I refuse to play Skullgirls 'cause I hate Alex Ahab's character designs.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

I think where you're getting confused is that I am referring to outright refusing to play a game - not even attempting to try it out - because the given classes don't appeal to you immediately as being 'narrowminded', NOT simply having a preference for one role or one class or the other.

 

Considering that White Mage and Scholar share pre-requisite classes, and considering that both Jobs pull cross-class skills from each other, I would be extremely surprised if the person in question has never tried out the other job.  What's more, a good White Mage is going to have a few more cross class skills from other classes, meaning that you end up trying other classes out.

 

Doesn't mean you'll like them.  It's perfectly sane and reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I tried it out and it sucked."

 

BTW, it's also perfectly reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I looked into this class - though I didn't try it out -and nothing about it appeals to me."  That's completely reasonable, even if you think it's "narrowminded."

[Mercer]

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

 

Maybe a PSA post needs to get made for new players going into Heavensward. Hrm.

[Kellach Woods]

Ideally I'd straight up say for DRK level PLD - you NEED Provoke. This is not an option

[BroodingFicus]

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

 

Maybe a PSA post needs to get made for new players going into Heavensward. Hrm.

 

Cross class is important and many people would, I think, go back and level up to a certain point in certain classes to get any abilities that might be valid (not sure if we know which classes will cross yet or not but still). However generally this is something you would be able to do on your own time. Level your main job then go back and work on cross classes while technically already being fully capable of doing content. It also seems logical to learn your actual job /then/ mix in other bits rather than the reverse where you learn how to play a WHM per say, switch to AST and suddenly lose most of those abilities for completely  new ones. 

 

That said they also are locking it behind story which means unlocking the new jobs also forces you to do all the MSQ content past 50. Why not do it right away? Because unless you have a love for your class, leveling 1-50 (60? Not sure if there will be cross class skills added higher) and doing the whole MSQ to 2.55 is not likely to be an enjoyable ride. However, if you can enjoy the class you want, you have motivation to slowly work on getting extra little skills through cross classes that make you and your parties life easier. At least that's how I would see it and how I felt when I had to level Paladin for my Warrior. I hated Paladin but I did it because after playing Warrior I could see the benefit and I would work on it until I got frustrated and switched back over to overpower things in the face instead.

[Mercer]

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

 

Maybe a PSA post needs to get made for new players going into Heavensward. Hrm.

 

Cross class is important and many people would, I think, go back and level up to a certain point in certain classes to get any abilities that might be valid (not sure if we know which classes will cross yet or not but still). However generally this is something you would be able to do on your own time. Level your main job then go back and work on cross classes while technically already being fully capable of doing content. It also seems logical to learn your actual job /then/ mix in other bits rather than the reverse where you learn how to play a WHM per say, switch to AST and suddenly lose most of those abilities for completely  new ones. 

 

That said they also are locking it behind story which means unlocking the new jobs also forces you to do all the MSQ content past 50. Why not do it right away? Because unless you have a love for your class, leveling 1-50 (60? Not sure if there will be cross class skills added higher) and doing the whole MSQ to 2.55 is not likely to be an enjoyable ride. However, if you can enjoy the class you want, you have motivation to slowly work on getting extra little skills through cross classes that make you and your parties life easier. At least that's how I would see it and how I felt when I had to level Paladin for my Warrior. I hated Paladin but I did it because after playing Warrior I could see the benefit and I would work on it until I got frustrated and switched back over to overpower things in the face instead.

 

It's more of a recommendation to not only ease them into the game, but also ease them into their role. All but THM are directly linked to their role in the game. This is, again, more of a way to help people understand that they may not be able to use their preferred class right away but also encourage them knowing that their efforts leveling their class actually gives them rewards. 

 

In a perfect world, we would have access to these new jobs right away. We don't, so the best we can do is adapt and make the best of what we have.

[Zyrusticae]

I've done pettier than that.

 

I refuse to play Skullgirls 'cause I hate Alex Ahab's character designs.

To be honest, I feel that is a bigger consideration than the class make-up of an MMORPG.

 

Because, for the most part, there should be at least one class in any given lineup that appeals to you, since all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start, unless it's a game that's being shoved out the door too soon or something like that.

 

The art style, on the other hand, either appeals to you or doesn't. I don't like most major western MMORPG art styles, so that alone causes me to pass on a fair number of them (especially World of Warcraft which I find anathema to my sensibilities). I just can't fully imagine someone who can't find SOMETHING they like in the quadrinity of warrior-rogue-mage-priest.

 

Considering that White Mage and Scholar share pre-requisite classes, and considering that both Jobs pull cross-class skills from each other, I would be extremely surprised if the person in question has never tried out the other job.  What's more, a good White Mage is going to have a few more cross class skills from other classes, meaning that you end up trying other classes out.

 

Doesn't mean you'll like them.  It's perfectly sane and reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I tried it out and it sucked."

 

BTW, it's also perfectly reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I looked into this class - though I didn't try it out -and nothing about it appeals to me."  That's completely reasonable, even if you think it's "narrowminded."

Well, I don't disagree.

 

Thing is, I'm still talking about prospective buyers here. People who've actually played the game at least for some time have a basis with which to make some kind of judgment. But a prospective buyer/trial user should have at least one class among the initial lineup that appeals to them if it covers every one of the usual niches.

 

I mean, I'm trying to imagine the person who looks at Paladin, Warrior, Dragoon, Monk, Bard, Ninja, Black Mage, Summoner, White Mage, and Scholar and thinks "ehhhh.... I don't like any of those". How boring and one-track can you possibly be? I don't mind alienating myself from folks who think that way at all. There's no way I could find common ground with them. Not sure I'd even want to play with them. "EVERYTHING ELSE is conceptually boring... except for MY class!" Yeah, thanks, but no thanks.

 

And this is, of course, assuming that the genre itself even appeals to them to begin with. Obviously, someone who just doesn't care for swords-and-spells high fantasy shouldn't even be looking at such titles to begin with. I certainly wouldn't recommend someone who only cares for cyberpunk and sci-fi settings to look into the game just because Machinist and Allagans (and, to a lesser extent, Garleans) are a thing, or else they'll just be set up for major disappointment. But they can already make that judgment themselves, and I'd much rather they couch their impressions in those terms instead of saying something clearly ridiculous and absurd like "none of the classes appeal to me!" when, really, the game's setting doesn't appeal to you so you should probably be looking the other way to begin with.

 

Which I still think is absurd, because, seriously, what?

 

But I will freely admit I am narrow-minded on this aspect, because I only ever seem to obtain ever-widening interests as I grow older. Things that I used to think were boring are now just the most fascinating things in the world to me. I feel like there is no limit to the things I want to explore and try out, and trying to imagine the people who only ever want to stick within a certain predefined niche only ever depresses me.

 

And again, since I can't emphasize this enough, your experiences are yours! If you've actually played the game and given it more than a short test-drive I can't refute your experiences whatsoever. It's only the people who've never even touched the game and are passing judgments on the game's roster that I find much to question.

 

Well, heh, I've already invested more energy into this shpiel than I really should have. I don't feel that strongly about it. It was just an idle observation and now I feel the need to explain and defend my thought processes. Can't be helped, I suppose. Anything that can be negatively construed gets that kind of response...

[V'aleera]

all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start

I want to DPS with a sword. What class do I pick?

 

This is an extremely relevant question, by the way. When I was looking for MMOs to play after leaving WoW the fact that I could play a spear focused class was literally the only thing that pushed me over the edge into giving this game a shot.

 

Is it narrow-minded and picky? Yes. Is the average consumer narrow-minded and picky? Yes.

[Mercer]

all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start

I want to DPS with a sword. What class do I pick?

None of them.

[Gegenji]

all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start

I want to DPS with a sword. What class do I pick?

None of them.

ROG/NIN, then get a couple of the knives that are big enough to BE swords! :thumbsup:

[Viola]

While I don't know about you guys (and girls), I plan to dive straight into Heavensward and get DRK ASAP and get it all ready for Heavensward.

 

With that said, it's going to be fun learning the class from scratch.