LGBT Characters and Related Groups (Balmung)

[Gaspard]

In my opinion it's not helpful.

 

Enforce seperation and fragmentation of people and you will end up with a seperated group. I don't mind LGBT exclusive groups, but those groups are in that regard enforcing exclusivity/seperation from the so called 'majority / Normal Joes', and therein enforcing said seperation, safe spaces or not.

 

I find it far more progressive not to make the Gender/Sexuality question into something that needs seperation. The more this type of thinking is enforced, the more we fuel the Idea that 'LGBT' people are different and belong in their own seperate group.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole wish of the LGBT community to be accepted at large without the necessity to explain themselves or their sexual prefferences to the world?

 

If so, why enforce the tension / seperation from the very 'Majority' you wish to be accepted by and part of?

 

Let me give another (and probably more problematic example);

 

It's akin to creating a 'Black only' or 'White only' FC/Group. The only difference is that you switch sexuality with race as in terms of differences. And the Idea itself of a 'Black' or 'White' FC/Group is already repulsive in itself for me, and should be for you too.

 

I think of seperate LGBT communities in the same regard. Only that instead of taking skin as the denominator, you take sexuality.

 

 

The Idea should be in inclusiveness/unity in all things human, no matter what the topic is.

[Altitis Acquired]

It's only normal for people to seek out others with common interests or background. It's not about seperation, so there's no need to try and make it about that.

[Nako Vesh]

But being in an LGBT themed FC/LS doesn't magically prevent people from communicating outside these circles. There isn't some impenetrable wall. A lot of you here are vastly overstating the supposed harm caused by a focused social group. It's silly.

 

Many people in this thread have stated very good reasons for wanting a group like this, and some of you are telling them, "Well, your comfort and feelings of safety harms the community." Come on now.

[Leomoon]

Though im not one of them, there's plenty LBGT people on Balmung,  there's even a FC called Yuri dedicated only to lesbian (If that's what you are).

 

But ask around,  everyone is friendly about it lol

I have yet to run into a person who even cares if you are gay on Balmung. Were all behind a computer or TV screen who cares.

[Naunet]

Though im not one of them, there's plenty LBGT people on Balmung,  there's even a FC called Yuri dedicated only to lesbian (If that's what you are).

 

But ask around,  everyone is friendly about it lol

I have yet to run into a person who even cares if you are gay on Balmung. Were all behind a computer or TV screen who cares.

 

1. I have definitely ran into bigoted individuals in MMOs and FFXIV is no exception to that.

 

2. The game is more than just the game. Someone touched on this in a prior post, but a lot of people build rich and deep social connections with the people they play an MMO with. When I log in, I'm logging in to greet friends and family - people who I want to share my hopes, my fears, my daily gripes, my happiness with. Heck, some of these "MMO friends" even flew across the country to attend my real life wedding. I married one of my "MMO friends". So yeah, I care about who the person is behind the keyboard and mouse. I want to make sure they're in a place where they are comfortable. I worry about them when they're going through trouble.

 

I know you want to believe that everyone is happy and accepting, but they're not. And many LGBT folk have suffered a great deal and don't want to take the chance of joining a guild only to see "that's gay" or "fag" thrown around as casual words; they don't want to see people making rape jokes; they don't want to have to worry about talking about their boyfriend or girlfriend; they don't want to be afraid to speak in vent/mumble/ts/whatever because their voice doesn't match their gender. Maybe they just want to be sure they're in a place where they're not alone, maybe guarantee that there are at least some people around who will understand first-hand what they are going through, so that they can receive and give support.

 

Those are the reasons I helped run an LGBT safe space FC while I was playing this game. They are perfectly legitimate reasons for someone to seek out a like-minded FC. There's nothing exclusionary about it, and we shouldn't feel the need to knee-jerk defend Balmung. It's got nothing to do with attacking Balmung players.

[AquiziTC]

But being in an LGBT themed FC/LS doesn't magically prevent people from communicating outside these circles. There isn't some impenetrable wall. A lot of you here are vastly overstating the supposed harm caused by a focused social group. It's silly.

 

This, exactly this. I don't really understand how a LS is 'seclusion.' It's like.

 

OK EXAMPLE:

 

How many of you guys have a linkshell for your static? Ok, great. Do not have/talk to any other friends? Of course not! 

 

"That's different it's practical not social!" I hear.

BULLSHIT!

 

Yes, there are some statics and raid groups that are entirely business. I do not feel, however, that it is the norm. Sure there is a goal there, but it's still a social circle EXCLUDED to some (read: people not in the static, generally).

 

That is not to say I am excluding anyone, the + I add to things involve things like allies and the like.

 

This is not an FC, of which you can only be in one of. There's actually already an FC for that as I know, NAWTY. And while not RP, they're a pretty cool group of people (they live in the same ward as my FC's house). Linkshells do not have the 'only one' restriction. If you already have 8? Then yeah sure I guess there's a conflict there, but I have four! WHAT?! FOUR SOCIAL GROUPS HOW DARE I!

 

I dunno, the 'you're secluding yourself' argument...

I'm sorry, it just sounds dumb.

 

 

Edit: cleaned up language. Post now with less swearing!

[Kage]

As part of the alphabet soup my opinion is that you are allowed to create your own safe spaces, especially when there is such desire for it.

 

I personally do not have need or want for it but that does not mean others share my experiences. As stated in this very thread, some people had poor things happen in their RP circles over it. Even if we might say there -are- quite a few alphabet soup characters or players, does not mean some people will not be dicks about it.

 

In other news. SCOTUS just announced their decision (5-4) that bans on same sex marriages are unconstitutional. squeeeeeee NEXT TO THE OTHER quiltbag issues! We have so many still!

[Maril]

But being in an LGBT themed FC/LS doesn't magically prevent people from communicating outside these circles. There isn't some impenetrable wall. A lot of you here are vastly overstating the supposed harm caused by a focused social group. It's silly.

 

Many people in this thread have stated very good reasons for wanting a group like this, and some of you are telling them, "Well, your comfort and feelings of safety harms the community." Come on now.

 

This, a million times. I do not see why joining a linkshell with like-minded people for the peaceful purpose of making friends/connections, should be made into something that is going to affect the community around us. People might be able to do a lot, that's true - but a small gathering of people in a game.. I'd wager we're not going to cause great harm.

[Thorgar]

But being in an LGBT themed FC/LS doesn't magically prevent people from communicating outside these circles. There isn't some impenetrable wall. A lot of you here are vastly overstating the supposed harm caused by a focused social group. It's silly.

 

This, exactly this. I don't really understand how a LS is 'seclusion.' It's like.

 

OK EXAMPLE:

 

How many of you guys have a linkshell for your static? Ok, great. Do not have/talk to any other friends? Of course not! 

 

"That's different it's practical not social!" I hear.

BULLSHIT!

 

Yes, there are some statics and raid groups that are entirely business. I do not feel, however, that it is the norm. Sure there is a goal there, but it's still a social circle EXCLUDED to some (read: people not in the static, generally).

 

That is not to say I am excluding anyone, the + I add to things involve things like allies and the like.

 

This is not an FC, of which you can only be in one of. There's actually already an FC for that as I know, NAWTY. And while not RP, they're a pretty cool group of people (they live in the same ward as my FC's house). Linkshells do not have the 'only one' restriction. If you already have 8? Then yeah sure I guess there's a conflict there, but I have four! WHAT?! FOUR SOCIAL GROUPS HOW DARE I!

 

I dunno, the 'you're secluding yourself' argument...

I'm sorry, it just sounds dumb.

 

 

Edit: cleaned up language. Post now with less swearing!

odd newbie question, whats a static?  I am assuming its not random background noise being picked up by your receiver static lol

 

on topic-ish, i still don't get why people care about anyone's sexual orientation.  If your not sexually attracted to someone your not going to have sex with them and they are not going to have sex with you, so why the hell is any other detail relevant? 

 

if someone gets up in your face over their orientation/religion/politics, the mistake they made was getting in your face.  that is just rude and deserves retaliation, the subject matter is moot at that point.  However if their not in your face about it, why would you even care what people do in their private life?

 

sorry if i rambled been up looong time with no caffine lol

[Hammersmith]

But being in an LGBT themed FC/LS doesn't magically prevent people from communicating outside these circles. There isn't some impenetrable wall. A lot of you here are vastly overstating the supposed harm caused by a focused social group. It's silly.

 

This, exactly this. I don't really understand how a LS is 'seclusion.' It's like.

 

OK EXAMPLE:

 

How many of you guys have a linkshell for your static? Ok, great. Do not have/talk to any other friends? Of course not! 

 

"That's different it's practical not social!" I hear.

BULLSHIT!

 

Yes, there are some statics and raid groups that are entirely business. I do not feel, however, that it is the norm. Sure there is a goal there, but it's still a social circle EXCLUDED to some (read: people not in the static, generally).

 

That is not to say I am excluding anyone, the + I add to things involve things like allies and the like.

 

This is not an FC, of which you can only be in one of. There's actually already an FC for that as I know, NAWTY. And while not RP, they're a pretty cool group of people (they live in the same ward as my FC's house). Linkshells do not have the 'only one' restriction. If you already have 8? Then yeah sure I guess there's a conflict there, but I have four! WHAT?! FOUR SOCIAL GROUPS HOW DARE I!

 

I dunno, the 'you're secluding yourself' argument...

I'm sorry, it just sounds dumb.

 

 

Edit: cleaned up language. Post now with less swearing!

odd newbie question, whats a static?  I am assuming its not random background noise being picked up by your receiver static lol

 

on topic-ish, i still don't get why people care about anyone's sexual orientation.  If your not sexually attracted to someone your not going to have sex with them and they are not going to have sex with you, so why the hell is any other detail relevant? 

 

if someone gets up in your face over their orientation/religion/politics, the mistake they made was getting in your face.  that is just rude and deserves retaliation, the subject matter is moot at that point.  However if their not in your face about it, why would you even care what people do in their private life?

 

sorry if i rambled been up looong time with no caffine lol

 

The mistake is viewing someone as an "Other" based on sexual preference, regardless of intent to bone said person.  Bigotry and discrimination are not all in your face violence.  A lot of it is small things like "LBGT only FC and linkshells are discriminatory!" or small verbal cues that let slurs into casual conversation among gamers, or having to worry at all about being 'out' around strangers for any reason, whatsever. Cultural and sociatal discrimination is a death by a thousand cuts, when it's not death by one big act of violence. It's the sort of thing people say "but lol I didn't mean it!" and you're expected to just nod along and say "ok" with. Excusable the first time. But after the next hundred, thousand times? It wears and scrapes away are your basic humanity.

 

It's why safe spaces and LGBT specific linkshells and FCs are important.  They're a safe space run and moderated by people who understand and have experienced what someone who sits in the "normality" of heterosexual cis-gendered life will never understand completely, because it's not their life.

[111]

 

odd newbie question, whats a static? 

 

A group of people who meet on a scheduled basis to clear conent. Often the harder content needs gear from earlier content, and it only drops once per week.

 

It's static, in that they try to avoid changing members, so that the same group of people gets all the loot, and can use that loot to clear later dungeons.

[Aduu Avagnar]

None of my business what any of y'all do, but let me give an example of an exclusive group that isn't looked down on:

 

Groups for a specific theme. For instance the Red Wings. Other than 1 person, the only RPers we have currently are from the Flames (and the one who isn't works for them). Why? cause that's the theme of the FC.

I haven't heard anyone riling about the exclusivity of that? 

 

It doesn't stop us RPing with people outside of the group

It doesn't stop us communicating with people outside of the group

It doesn't stop us Raiding with people outside of the group

Should I go on?

 

apply that same theory to the LGBT circiles.... oh look, there is no issue with them.

[Thorgar]

But being in an LGBT themed FC/LS doesn't magically prevent people from communicating outside these circles. There isn't some impenetrable wall. A lot of you here are vastly overstating the supposed harm caused by a focused social group. It's silly.

 

This, exactly this. I don't really understand how a LS is 'seclusion.' It's like.

 

OK EXAMPLE:

 

How many of you guys have a linkshell for your static? Ok, great. Do not have/talk to any other friends? Of course not! 

 

"That's different it's practical not social!" I hear.

BULLSHIT!

 

Yes, there are some statics and raid groups that are entirely business. I do not feel, however, that it is the norm. Sure there is a goal there, but it's still a social circle EXCLUDED to some (read: people not in the static, generally).

 

That is not to say I am excluding anyone, the + I add to things involve things like allies and the like.

 

This is not an FC, of which you can only be in one of. There's actually already an FC for that as I know, NAWTY. And while not RP, they're a pretty cool group of people (they live in the same ward as my FC's house). Linkshells do not have the 'only one' restriction. If you already have 8? Then yeah sure I guess there's a conflict there, but I have four! WHAT?! FOUR SOCIAL GROUPS HOW DARE I!

 

I dunno, the 'you're secluding yourself' argument...

I'm sorry, it just sounds dumb.

 

 

Edit: cleaned up language. Post now with less swearing!

odd newbie question, whats a static?  I am assuming its not random background noise being picked up by your receiver static lol

 

on topic-ish, i still don't get why people care about anyone's sexual orientation.  If your not sexually attracted to someone your not going to have sex with them and they are not going to have sex with you, so why the hell is any other detail relevant? 

 

if someone gets up in your face over their orientation/religion/politics, the mistake they made was getting in your face.  that is just rude and deserves retaliation, the subject matter is moot at that point.  However if their not in your face about it, why would you even care what people do in their private life?

 

sorry if i rambled been up looong time with no caffine lol

 

The mistake is viewing someone as an "Other" based on sexual preference, regardless of intent to bone said person.  Bigotry and discrimination are not all in your face violence.  A lot of it is small things like "LBGT only FC and linkshells are discriminatory!" or small verbal cues that let slurs into casual conversation among gamers, or having to worry at all about being 'out' around strangers for any reason, whatsever.  Cultural and sociatal discrimination is a death by a thousand cuts, when it's not death by one big act of violence.  It's the sort of thing people say "but lol I didn't mean it!" and you're expected to just nod along and say "ok" with.  Excusable the first time.  But after the next hundred, thousand times? It wears and scrapes away are your basic humanity.

 

It's why safe spaces and LGBT specific linkshells and FCs are important.  They're a safe space run and moderated by people who understand and have experienced what someone who sits in the "normality" of heterosexual cis-gendered life will never understand completely, because it's not their life.

i can understand the need for a safe place to relax with other like minded people.  I am not what most term normal, having grown up in the Bible Belt i have seen some REAL idiocy and it baffles the hell out of me.  I cant judge one person by another's actions no matter their race/color/creed/orientation.  Though if you dress in a manner that says your there to start shyte or your a danger to my family, expect a cautious reception lol.

[Dravus]

I don't really buy into the idea that 'outsiders' cannot understand the issues that many people endure based on their gender identity or sexuality. Today's society has quite a lot of extremist elements that aggressively ridicule or discriminate against people perceived as being 'normal' and there is a very nasty mentality - all too common within the LGBT community - that 'straight white men' cannot be discriminated against.

 

I fear that exclusive LGBT chat channels risk becoming a breeding ground for such things, or at the very least just an echo chamber for people to intentionally or unintentionally push such an agenda.

 

With that in mind ensuring that at least one of the channel moderators is willing to stamp out such things as soon as they emerge is very important in my eyes.

[Thorgar]

 

odd newbie question, whats a static? 

 

A group of people who meet on a scheduled basis to clear conent. Often the harder content needs gear from earlier content, and it only drops once per week.

 

It's static, in that they try to avoid changing members, so that the same group of people gets all the loot, and can use that loot to clear later dungeons.

ok, cool thank you for clearing that up for me.  interesting system.

[Gaspard]

To clarify; 

 

I don't believe there's an inherent issue with such exclusive Linkshells / or groups, or that they in turn mean that those individuals will isolate themselves to said group solely. Neither would I feel slighted if not allowed to be part of such group.

 

I know the appeal of such 'safe' havens, in different contexts. I also know that it is easy to lose yourself in such and eventually make that your main 'staying' point as opposed to the general community as a whole.

 

At the end of the day, Such exclusive LC's and FC's will definitely not hurt nor impede anyone. But at the same time, I do see a problem if they're made with the intend to 'avoid bigotry of the general masses against LGBT people'. Simply because that both stands as criticism towards a community I've experienced to be rather open in such regards, and secondly because it doesn't address nor help in solving the issue of said bigotry. It may be idealistic (and therein Unrealistic), but I believe the actual goal should be for the LGBT community to be able to exist comfortably as part of the whole thing, and not need to 'draw back' into their own safe haven. 

 

Which is why comparison to RP themed Linkshells/FC's doesn't hold ground, since they're not made with the intend to avoid social stigmas / bigotry/ racism by the community at large.

 

Again, I can't stress this enough;

 

I don't mind such Linkshells, I don't believe they're wrong or the likes. If they're made simply for people of likeminded taste to share company with eachother. I 'do' believe however that it's not helpful if they're made solely to avoid the bigotry of the masses, to, so to speak, 'withdraw' from the conflict and just resolve to 'us being ourselves somewhere seperate'. You wont achieve any form of satisfying solution. Again, It's Idealistic to a degree, but that's my opinion.

 

Also, I don't agree with the notion that 'Non' LGBT people do not understand. Discrimination is something anyone can experience at a certain point in their lifes, and hurt is universal. You forget that Humans are empathetic creatures and  the reason why we're able to exist next to eachother en masse is 'exactly because' we're able to relate, understand, and feel as our peers. While we may not relate to the very specific, singular circumstance you may find yourself in, your emotions of 'discrimination/rejection' are universal. Anyone who has ever faced discrimination in some form will be able to relate to you on an emotional basis, as emotions are universal. To say that your struggle is 'unique' and not 'understandable' by others doesn't really fly. It never did. If you even reject the notion of empathy expressed by others for the very problems you mention, then you're sabotaging 'any' hope for a mutual community.

[Hammersmith]

To clarify; 

 

I don't believe there's an inherent issue with such exclusive Linkshells / or groups, or that they in turn mean that those individuals will isolate themselves to said group solely. Neither would I feel slighted if not allowed to be part of such group.

 

I know the appeal of such 'safe' havens, in different contexts. I also know that it is easy to lose yourself in such and eventually make that your main 'staying' point as opposed to the general community as a whole.

 

At the end of the day, Such exclusive LC's and FC's will definitely not hurt nor impede anyone. But at the same time, I do see a problem if they're made with the intend to 'avoid bigotry of the general masses against LGBT people'. Simply because that both stands as criticism towards a community I've experienced to be rather open in such regards, and secondly because it doesn't address nor help in solving the issue of said bigotry. It may be idealistic (and therein Unrealistic), but I believe the actual goal should be for the LGBT community to be able to exist comfortably as part of the whole thing, and not need to 'draw back' into their own safe haven. 

 

Which is why comparison to RP themed Linkshells/FC's doesn't hold ground, since they're not made with the intend to avoid social stigmas / bigotry/ racism by the community at large.

 

Again, I can't stress this enough;

 

I don't mind such Linkshells, I don't believe they're wrong or the likes. If they're made simply for people of likeminded taste to share company with eachother. I 'do' believe however that it's not helpful if they're made solely to avoid the bigotry of the masses, to, so to speak, 'withdraw' from the conflict and just resolve to 'us being ourselves somewhere seperate'. You wont achieve any form of satisfying solution. Again, It's Idealistic to a degree, but that's my opinion.

 

Also, I don't agree with the notion that 'Non' LGBT people do not understand. Discrimination is something anyone can experience at a certain point in their lifes, and hurt is universal. You forget that Humans are empathetic creatures and  the reason why we're able to exist next to eachother en masse is 'exactly because' we're able to relate, understand, and feel as our peers. While we may not relate to the very specific, singular circumstance you may find yourself in, your emotions of 'discrimination/rejection' are universal. Anyone who has ever faced discrimination in some form will be able to relate to you on an emotional basis, as emotions are universal. To say that your struggle is 'unique' and not 'understandable' by others doesn't really fly. It never did. If you even reject the notion of empathy expressed by others for the very problems you mention, then you're sabotaging 'any' hope for a mutual community.

 

You can't discriminate against a social group that holds all the power.  

 

And Strait White Male holds All of it in the context of America and a lot of other places. Hell, given how imperialism works, we've got a lot more sway than we're warranted -everywhere-.

 

You can be a dick to someone for a reason, like being a strait white male, on a one to one basis, but discrimination, as a force, isn't involved there.  That's you: Being a dick.  Discrimination requires an entire culture and society behind it, grinding you through the gears.

 

That doesn't apply to the one turning the crank of the war machine, as it were.  Anything that "lessens" the power of strait white males at this point isn't discrimination, it's equality.  It's a leveling of the playing field.

 

And I can see why you'd find that scary.  It's a lot at stake.  Almost all that's AT stake, however, is based on cultural and institutionalized oppression of everyone that ISN'T a strait white male.

 

Look at what you're losing.  You're not admitted to a chat channel?  That's been happening to other groups for a long time.  White Male as a "pass" to all things is based in "White Male" being top dog in the world. It isn't a carte blanche (see what I did there?) and shouldn't be by any thought or stretch.  You aren't being discriminated against, you're allowing others to have  what White Male has had for centuries in this country: The ability to have their own space.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that.  

 

In the end you're literally losing nothing by not being in a LGBT chat channel.  Oh no.  As pointed elsewhere in this thread, that's not even real separation.  It's just a place you're not.  Why is that wrong? Why do you have the right to be there when it's not intended for you?  It's like showing up to a pie eating contest and NOT LIKING PIE.  It's a club you aren't part of.  So why insist you need to be a member?

 

That kind of thinking is pretty core to the entitlement issue that keeps causing issues for everyone else.  Eventually white het cis male will show up and start imposing on the party, and shout loudly and with a lot of power if they can't get in, even if they weren't invited. Given that White Het Cis Male holds so much power, this often destroys the party.

 

 

As to touch, briefly, as to why you can never know what it's like to be a group that you are inherantly not a part of?

 

There's a thought experiment known as the Bat experiment.

 

Imagine being a bat.

 

You will never be a bat.  You will never actually experience being a bat.  The most you will ever be is a human pretending to experience a bat.  Because you're you.  You can't be more than you and you CAN'T be a bat because you, personally, are a human!

 

Same applies to Strait White Guy "Understanding" what it's like to be affected by institutionalized discrimination.  You can't. You can, at best, only empathize.  You can only be Strait White Male pretending to have the same perspective as anyone who is not Strait White Male.

[Gaspard]

To clarify; 

 

I don't believe there's an inherent issue with such exclusive Linkshells / or groups, or that they in turn mean that those individuals will isolate themselves to said group solely. Neither would I feel slighted if not allowed to be part of such group.

 

I know the appeal of such 'safe' havens, in different contexts. I also know that it is easy to lose yourself in such and eventually make that your main 'staying' point as opposed to the general community as a whole.

 

At the end of the day, Such exclusive LC's and FC's will definitely not hurt nor impede anyone. But at the same time, I do see a problem if they're made with the intend to 'avoid bigotry of the general masses against LGBT people'. Simply because that both stands as criticism towards a community I've experienced to be rather open in such regards, and secondly because it doesn't address nor help in solving the issue of said bigotry. It may be idealistic (and therein Unrealistic), but I believe the actual goal should be for the LGBT community to be able to exist comfortably as part of the whole thing, and not need to 'draw back' into their own safe haven. 

 

Which is why comparison to RP themed Linkshells/FC's doesn't hold ground, since they're not made with the intend to avoid social stigmas / bigotry/ racism by the community at large.

 

Again, I can't stress this enough;

 

I don't mind such Linkshells, I don't believe they're wrong or the likes. If they're made simply for people of likeminded taste to share company with eachother. I 'do' believe however that it's not helpful if they're made solely to avoid the bigotry of the masses, to, so to speak, 'withdraw' from the conflict and just resolve to 'us being ourselves somewhere seperate'. You wont achieve any form of satisfying solution. Again, It's Idealistic to a degree, but that's my opinion.

 

Also, I don't agree with the notion that 'Non' LGBT people do not understand. Discrimination is something anyone can experience at a certain point in their lifes, and hurt is universal. You forget that Humans are empathetic creatures and  the reason why we're able to exist next to eachother en masse is 'exactly because' we're able to relate, understand, and feel as our peers. While we may not relate to the very specific, singular circumstance you may find yourself in, your emotions of 'discrimination/rejection' are universal. Anyone who has ever faced discrimination in some form will be able to relate to you on an emotional basis, as emotions are universal. To say that your struggle is 'unique' and not 'understandable' by others doesn't really fly. It never did. If you even reject the notion of empathy expressed by others for the very problems you mention, then you're sabotaging 'any' hope for a mutual community.

 

You can't discriminate against a social group that holds all the power.  

 

And White Male holds All of it.  

 

 

And I'm out of this conversation.

[Dravus]

Sadly it seems as though my earlier point has been proven. I'll bite my tongue to avoid getting into trouble but I will state firmly that I find the idea that 'white men hold all the power' is completely and utterly ridiculous.

 

They don't - they really, really don't. It's just that in recent years it's become 'cool' for certain elements of the 'equality' movements to place the burden of blame upon their shoulders instead of acknowledging that they, too, are victims of discrimination from various sources.

 

I don't really want to turn this into a political debate though since this isn't really the appropriate site for such things. I will, however, state that I no longer have any interest in being part of a LGBT movement within this community if this the stance and 'logic' that is going to be encouraged and embraced.

[Aduu Avagnar]

May I ask, if you cannot discriminate against a group that holds all of the power, what then do you call the following?

 

Racially motivated attacks against white people?

Sexually motivated attacks against Straight people?

Gender motivated attacks against men?

 

while they may be rare, they do happen, and they are discrimination.

 

However, I agree with your statement regarding never being able to truly feel and understand a form of discrimination if you have not experienced it, that doesn't mean that people can't relate due to being discriminated against in another manner.

[Tseren]

I will, however, state that I no longer have any interest in being part of a LGBT movement within this community if this the stance and 'logic' that is going to be encouraged and embraced.

 

We're not asking for a movement. We're not even asking for support. We're just asking *eachother* if we would like to be part of a LGBT chat in game.

 

And look at all the crazy that's come out of it because it's apparently such a controversial topic to seek out fellowship with eachother.

[Gegenji]

In my personal opinion, I liken this whole situation regarding the LGBT LS and why it's wanted - with no ill-will towards either side - to having an LS for Magic the Gathering.

 

Wait, come back, it'll make sense.

 

Not everyone plays Magic or understands the rule set. They don't know what the stack is or how it resolves, or what "Counterspell on a Stick" or "Fling on Legs" means. They don't get what the symbols mean, or what a mill or stax or "esper control" deck is.

 

In the Magic LS, you can talk about the deck you've made - the new cards and how they synergize with this Enchantment or Creature card you're already using. You can talk about how you shut down that lifegain deck with a well-placed False Cure. Or used Repay in Kind to drop everyone's life to one and then did a one-mana Exsanguinate.

 

In this LS, people would understand what you're talking about. They can share similar stories, and you can revel in that kinship. You can offer deck-building advice and point out cards that you've used that helped in similar situations, you can mention conventions and tournaments that are coming up that you might want to go to. And you don't have to worry about being called out for putting too much thought into the game or wasting your money on colorful little pieces of cardboard.

 

It doesn't divide the culture into the MtG-Players and the Not. The MtGers can still go and hang out with their friends and talk about Scrabble or Yu-Gi-Oh or even stuff they're doing in FFXIV! And there's nothing keeping the non-MtG Players from joining this LS... beyond the fact that I'm pretty sure they'll be mostly in the dark in regards to deciding whether to keep someone's artifact Commander deck colorless or use that new red Plainswalker that came out a few months back. But that doesn't mean they can't join and can't use it as a place of learning - so they can offer advice to others even if they never pick up the game itself.

 

It's simply a place for like minds to speak about like circumstances, like histories, and offer support and advice from a like mindset. There is a chance for it to become an echo-chamber or a place of hatred for YGO players, but that could happen in any LS. This is what I'm seeing with the LGBT LS idea - it's just that the thread that binds them is under a lot of heat in society. Much more than which card game you play.

[AquiziTC]

I would argue it's more money holding power BUT...

 

Where power lies is not the intent of this thread.

A talk about privilege can be made, but not here, and not about this.

 

My purpose for the LS is not necessarily as a save 'haven' away from the icky heteros. (that's a joke) It was simply, in my opinion, a place to network, bullshit, and befriend other players and CHARACTERS who might identify as LGBT+, so yes, that includes 'straight' players who may have LGBT+ characters and might be interested in other characters of the ilk.

 

I MADE it because there -was- a linkshell like that, but it no longer exists, so I wanted to have that again. I -am- of the mindset that any sort of hostility will be handled, by me (or my mods) and if it isn't then I need to know about it so I can DO something about it. (I can't be logged in 24/7, of course)

 

That was my purpose here, not a huge debate over power dynamics, or anything like that. So please don't take any one statement or comment as an entire community's opinion or stance.

[Virella]

I've been following this discussion for quite a while, and I think it is time to lock this. I really do not think the discussion going on right now is going anywhere.

[Gone.]

And I'm out of this conversation.

 

What they said is true, though. The majority is just that, the majority; they do not have worry about discrimination, certainly not to the extent an honest-to-god minority does.

 

That's not to say that someone cannot be discriminated against if they happen to be straight, white and male, as that would ignore issues such as classism in its entirety. However, it'd still be ultimately incomparable to the likes LGBT people face on a daily basis and that is where the difference lies.

 

This is why we deserve safe spaces free from any potential discrimination. Someone in the majority will never, ever fully comprehend the effect intolerance has on the minority psyche. They just won't and honestly, I'm glad you don't have to put up with it. I'm even envious in a way.

 

That we have people in this thread willfully ignoring examples of legitimate hate within our community should serve as the ultimate testament to having our needs fulfilled, irregardless if some are unwilling to admit to their socially-born privilege.