RP issue with White Mage

[Thorgar]

A friend of mine wanted help with lore on white mages and she was told out right that you cant IC'ly play a white mage.  when asked the gave something about succor, when asked for more details told "The Lore said so" kinda thing.

 

 

so what is up with that, bad writing, or bad reading on the lore guys part?

[Unnamed Mercenary]

[[takes out the magitek mod device]]

 

 

At the risk of yet another WHM thread derailing, I'd like to remind people to be friendly and constructive here. If one finds themselves unable to do so, the posts will be removed and warnings will be given.

 

[[keeps the mod device out]]

 

 

Right then! Let's see if I can get this started.

 

In previous WHM threads, the issue that's generally been brought up is that Succor (white magic) is controlled by the Elementals in the Black Shroud. Because of this, they've basically got it on lockdown. After the War of the Magi, the Elementals flooded the world in the 5th Umbral Era and created a brand-new race that they would only let learn Succor. These were the Padjals. It should be noted that Padjals are actually children who've been chosen by the Elementals, not a special race on their own.

 

The main-character of the story (so basically the Warrior of Light only) happens to be a special case, being y'know, the super-duper amazing person that the Warrior of Light is and all. 

 

It was stated that while what we see in the game is a "only the Warrior of Light is so special to get to learn Succor this way", there are "nefarious means" of learning White Magic too, likely at the expense of pissing off the Elementals so much they'll go on a tirade should that person become noticed.

 

edit: I'll be posting some of the previous threads to touch on White Magic below (there's a lot more...)

 

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6101&highlight=White+Mage

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6139&highlight=White+Mage

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=7627&highlight=White+Mage

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=8388&pid=110703#pid110703

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=10545&highlight=White+Mage

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=11199&highlight=White+Mage

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=11551&highlight=White+Mage

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=11951&highlight=White+Mage

[Griffith!]

White Magic - the arcane art of succor - is actually a forbidden kind of magic. I guess the Padjal are bringing it back - I'm a little hazy on the lore because I'm not a big fan of playing healers. The problem with role-playing jobs, as far I recall, is that in canon, there's basically just the one person who has access to them - the player character. And we can't all be the player character.

 

That being said, I don't think it's a big deal to RP a White Mage, so long as you have a solid explanation of where your Soul Stone came from.

 

EDIT - ninja'd by the Unnamed Mercenary.

[LiadansWhisper]

A friend of mine wanted help with lore on white mages and she was told out right that you cant IC'ly play a white mage.  when asked the gave something about succor, when asked for more details told "The Lore said so" kinda thing.

 

 

so what is up with that, bad writing, or bad reading on the lore guys part?

 

It's forbidden magic.  As others said, in the actual questline it's made clear that you're the only Super Special Snowflake allowed to learn the magic (because you're not Padjal, and only Padjal are allowed to learn White Magic per the Lore).

 

That said, I think it's entirely possible to grow into White Magic through RP, and there are other really powerful healer roles you can RP that aren't quite White Mage.  For instance, you could be a simple Conjurer (they are primarily healers, though they also have some offensive abilities), or even a Hearer (a Conjurer born with the innate ability to "hear" and understand the Elementals, as well as an innate ability to use Conjury without training).

 

I was hoping that the Heavensward questline would expand the borders of White Mages, but no such luck.

[LiveVoltage]

The problem with role-playing jobs, as far I recall, is that in canon, there's basically just the one person who has access to them - the player character. And we can't all be the player character.

While at the slight expense of derailing the thread, this is technically incorrect. Its accurate for some job's, but there are job's that other people can role play as canonically.

 

Foremost examples being Dragoons and Paladins. There are others jobs that canonically available to people not playing the WoL IC, but I digress.

 

That aside though, there are no rules saying your friends character cant be a WHM ICly, its just that alot of people will frown on that and a large portion of the community wont really want to RP with her/him because of a standing social stigma against lore breaking RPers and whatnot.

[Enla]

 

It's forbidden magic.  As others said, in the actual questline it's made clear that you're the only Super Special Snowflake allowed to learn the magic (because you're not Padjal, and only Padjal are allowed to learn White Magic per the Lore).

 

That said, I think it's entirely possible to grow into White Magic through RP, and there are other really powerful healer roles you can RP that aren't quite White Mage.  For instance, you could be a simple Conjurer (they are primarily healers, though they also have some offensive abilities), or even a Hearer (a Conjurer born with the innate ability to "hear" and understand the Elementals, as well as an innate ability to use Conjury without training).

 

I was hoping that the Heavensward questline would expand the borders of White Mages, but no such luck.

Yeah, without going into spoilers I'm rather disappointed as well in all honesty... I really, truly, wished to know through which means someone could become a WHM without the Elemental's approval as that would provide some really interesting story opportunities. However given the state of things at the end of the job story line as of now, I'm hoping that'll be covered in the next expac. If not SE has some explaining to do next time they hold a lore panel...

 

Secondly, do be careful about playing a Hearer as well for the very same reasons mentioned in the primary Conjury storyline. It's wide open for anyone to play should the mood suit them, but there are draw backs for those characters who don't actually learn how to use Conjury properly from the Stillfane Glade. However pretty much any pitfall -is- out there for everyone to see as part of the primary class quest and no one will bat two eyelashes about someone claiming their character is of that ilk.

 

If, however, you have your heart set on playing a WHM in-character then by all means do so! However, do be aware that there are people who will either not have their characters take you seriously ICly, or who will outright avoid RPing with you. That said you're bound to find a group of people who don't mind it over much, just be aware that out of all the jobs that is the one with the most lore-breaking potential to take on. At least until we know exactly -how- people can circumvent the will of the Elementals; who probably will NOT take kindly to anyone who does so.

[Gone.]

Yes, white magic is technically 'forbidden', however if you're playing a white mage ICly, it's likely you're not going to be announcing it the world for obvious reasons.

 

Rather it's lore-breaking to play largely depends on how much stock you put into the elemental bogeyman. Frankly I find the subtext implies that they're not as powerful as they're made out to be, certainly not at this point in time. As for the quest dialog, while it is made clear that your opportunity is a rare one, it's also implied that other exceptions exist, so *shrug*.

 

Personally I just say go for it if it's what you want out of your character. Sure, a handful of people from the RPC will shun you as if it were a matter of life or death, but they're not the type you'd want to roleplay with in the first place. In-game? No one seems to care, at least they never did back when I had a white mage.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

Yeah, without going into spoilers I'm rather disappointed as well in all honesty... I really, truly, wished to know through which means someone could become a WHM without the Elemental's approval as that would provide some really interesting story opportunities. However given the state of things at the end of the job story line as of now, I'm hoping that'll be covered in the next expac. If not SE has some explaining to do next time they hold a lore panel...

 

I initially thought that was the angle they were going to take.  But instead, we had a cardboard cutout villain that seemed really two dimensional.

 

 

Also, if this had happened before, does that mean that every 200 years or so some random Au Ra loses her shit and starts trying to end the world? o_O

 

[Enla]

 

 

Yeah, without going into spoilers I'm rather disappointed as well in all honesty... I really, truly, wished to know through which means someone could become a WHM without the Elemental's approval as that would provide some really interesting story opportunities. However given the state of things at the end of the job story line as of now, I'm hoping that'll be covered in the next expac. If not SE has some explaining to do next time they hold a lore panel...

 

I initially thought that was the angle they were going to take.  But instead, we had a cardboard cutout villain that seemed really two dimensional.

 

 

Also, if this had happened before, does that mean that every 200 years or so some random Au Ra loses her shit and starts trying to end the world? o_O

 

 

I got really, really, disappointed when she didn't turn out to be some form of corrupted WHM to be honest. Particularly since in between the second to last encounter and the last one she apparently does a heel face turn about the nature of the 'taint' - going from claiming that what she is doing isn't of that nature at all, to flat out referring to her experiments as producing and spreading the taint at the very end of it all. No amount of confirmation about how Au Ra are treated both in Othard and now in Ishgard could make up for the poor writing that was on display then... The faces I made during that last quest were quite comical I imagine... :dodgy:

 

 

I can't maneuver very well with this laptop, so instead of quoting again I'll just throw my thoughts here for another matter that's been posted.

 

I will say though that just because someone has a character who will call you out on the matter or don't want to RP with you doesn't mean they're bad people. Everyone has different preferences, and so long as nobody is institutionalizing what is and isn't acceptable while banning everyone else from their own antics then does it truly matter? We all have our niche's and petpeeves when it comes to RP. In the end it's merely something to be aware of when trying to find your own niche. Hell, I'm one of those people who has a character who -will- call people out if they claim to be WHM in character. Why? Because as someone who was raised in Gridania and who has studied Conjury extensively it's been beaten into her head that WHM are chosen, not self made for a very real and practical purpose. Unless, of course, the user turns to nefarious methods to bypass the Elemental's will. And she would see it as nefarious given the reasons -WHY- both white magic and black magic are viewed with such outright suspicion given how they jointly wreaked havoc upon Eorzea once upon a time. All of which I'm sure are, again, beaten into the heads of anyone wishing to partake of the instructions offered within the Stillfane Glade.

 

Does that mean I personally have an issue with the person? No. It's merely something my character would do. The other person is more than free to respond in kind and while we might find our characters don't mesh, it doesn't mean that I'm going to demand they abandon their character concept. Different strokes and all and frankly everyone is allowed to RP however they want as far as I'm concerned. All I feel is that it should be respected that people have different preferences that aren't always blendable. Plus if they can find a really interesting concept to explain their control of Succor that fits within the lore, then more power to them!

 

I'll be honest, I do hope they come up with more lore friendly reasons as to why 'x' job can be used by more than 'x' race/nationality/nobody unless certain forces agree to the matter. In some ways I enjoy having some of the classes and jobs being limited from a roleplaying perspective, as it provides an interesting challenge to see just what sort of character concepts I can come up with due to the restrictions. However I know a lot of people are not happy with them, myself included at one point in regards to WHM lore though I've since grown to love the simplicity of Conjury. In the end however, whether or not someone wishes to give the middle finger to the lore is ultimately up to themselves at this point until we're thrown the appropriate scraps from the lore division over at SE.

[Thorgar]

I'll chock this up to bad writing then, my friend is new to the game, newer than me and i still have the packing peanuts stuck to my Warrior's shoulders lol.  She was wanting to know if you had to play a white mage to be a healer, and like me she likes to RP her characters doing the job/class the character is doing. 

 

    I do understand people wanting to follow Lore even when its badly written (from an access of RP point of view) like this case.  I would like to stress however jumping on a newbies throat for not knowing the lore that's hidden till like lvl 50 or something is VERY bad form.

 

I guess Ive been a GM too long (since i was 14, some 27 years ago lol) Ive always striven to help people make the characters they will enjoy playing (exception, god level characters and their overpowered ilk), even if lore has to be bent a bit (set in consequences for it). When i run into people who like stepping on other peoples ideas with out even trying to help them fit it into lore it feels like your trying to tell me how to play the game.   That is a great way to start a fight lol.

 

Most of you seem to be considerate of new players and try and walk us through things for that .. THANK YOU!  As a new player to this game but an old Roleplayer it is much appreciated when you try and work with us newbies and not just shut us down rudely.  Even if we never get the character through if you try and help us we usually except it when it does not work far better than being told "the lore says so".

 

sorry for the micro rant lol.

 

thanks everyone for your replies ill relay the information to my friend. personal note im a sucky healer and hats off to those of you who learn to be good at that frustrating unthanked task!

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Luckily, there are a lot of lore-friendly classes that allow one ot be a healer!

 

Technically, all four base magic classes allow for this. (It's weird to include Astrologian nowwww).

 

Thaumaturgy is the magic of life and death.

 

Acanima is basically magic math.

 

Conjury is a relationship with nature.

 

Astrologians use the starts or something. I need to study up on it ._.

 

--

 

Then, we've got jobs, like White Mage, which is similar to Conjury, but a different power source and Scholars, who use a more archaic form of Arcanima to summon a faerie companion.

 

--

 

There's lore from both FFXIV 1.0 (THM actually used to have healing on par with CNJ) and 2.0+ to help back up claims. Going the CNJ, ACN or SCH routes are typically met with the least resistance in-game and in the community, I've found.

[Virella]

Astrologians use the starts or something. I need to study up on it ._.

Binding themselves to the celestial bodies, who in turn are connected with Hydaelyn. Like a big Aetheryte.

 

(That said, I find it strange that this healing is allowed, because it seems to drain from Hydaelyn and not from one's own aether, because why else would you have to attune to them eh? But that is a discussion for another thread I'd imagine;))

 

As of now you either had to have your character been in Sharlayan to be thought, dig into Astrologian him/herself, and recent questline for Astrologian shows off that the Ishgardians are just starting to pick up teaching the Sharlayan way to themselves (honestly, being the person who likes to drag out roleplay, the storylines goes on for a few moons as the questtext says, so being an awesomely taught pew pew healing beast is probably out of the question if you go for the Ishgardians teaching you!)

 

That said, there are plenty of alternatives for healers, and they all have their merits for roleplay.

 

In any case, may you or your friend ever decide to go to the Astrologian route instead for healing, you can always poke me ingame or over the RPC for advice, and heck, even roleplay.

 

And for good measure, if you happen to be interested, or your friend, I wrote up the Astrologian summary down on the RPC as well. Linky! (fair warning, filled with spoilers)

 

I hope that was not too offtopic for this, but I could not help to pitch in on the Astrologian part!

[Dat Oni]

The following is going to be incredibly blunt.

 

My policy with this has always been the same:

 

"Fuck em."

 

People have a problem with your RP? Fuck em.

 

People refuse to RP with you as a result? Fuck em.

 

People harass you over it? Report them, blacklist them, but most importantly, FUCK EM.

 

I have seen other RP plot devices that make White Mages look comparatively sane. Fuck em. They're not important. What is important is that if you're going to use the trope, do it in a way that people are going to remember. Make it good. If your character is enjoyable, I can overlook his/her job description. I'm tired of WHM being the greatest taboo ever and people being so damned scared of just doing their own thing. At this rate, I'm going to have to be the pioneer, aren't I?

 

Fuck em. Do what you want.

[Coatleque]

My policy with this has always been the same:

"Fuck em."

 

And then you [see: not you personally] wonder why people stop talking to you. Seriously. NOT this. The attitude of "I do what I want" is one of the most selfish and off-putting ones in any role-play community. If you're not going to respect Square Enix's creation then don't expect any in return.

[111]

My policy with this has always been the same:

"Fuck em."

 

And then you [see: not you personally] wonder why people stop talking to you. Seriously. NOT this. The attitude of "I do what I want" is one of the most selfish and off-putting ones in any role-play community. If you're not going to respect Square Enix's creation then don't expect any in return.

 

There is a line between doing what you like, and also understanding what will be palatable in the community at large.

 

Part of being a good community member, in my opinion, is to keep the viewpoints of others in mind, just like real life. That's how collaborative experiences work, "Fuck you I do what I want." Is not a good basis for collaboration, it's only a good basis for self absorption.

 

If you truly wish to just not give a fuck about what other's think, then things like forum RP or writing stories are good for that. IMO RP is all about collaboration, which requires give and take.

[V'aleera]

There is a difference between not respecting their creation as a whole entity and not respecting one of their lingering mistakes.

 

If one were to order a steak at a nice restaurant and a small sliver of meat on the edge was overly singed, no disrespect is being done to the chef by cutting that bit off and setting it to the side.

 

Responding more directly to the topic at hand: do keep in mind that the many, many people are willing to overlook liberties taken with lore if these liberties are A) appropriately moderate in scale and B) done so in a way that is engaging and entertaining.

[mongi291]

Ok, let's try to make a constructive post now.

 

No matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be someone that is against it.

You CAN be a White Mage: you just need to find a decent, not lore-breaking explanation. Someone has already done that.

Heck, I guess that with a bit of creativity, someone could even play a Padjal without actually breaking the lore: just don't expect everyone to be ok with it.

[Kellach Woods]

Honestly I was banking on the 51-60 to open up new avenues, like they seem to be doing for every other job, but... apparently not?

[Gone.]

My policy with this has always been the same:

"Fuck em."

 

And then you [see: not you personally] wonder why people stop talking to you. Seriously. NOT this. The attitude of "I do what I want" is one of the most selfish and off-putting ones in any role-play community. If you're not going to respect Square Enix's creation then don't expect any in return.

 

He has a point, though; the type of person Edgar refers to is never going to give an IC white mage the legitimate chance they deserve. Why waste one's time attempting to appease the unappeasable? It's an exercise in futility.

[111]

My policy with this has always been the same:

"Fuck em."

 

And then you [see: not you personally] wonder why people stop talking to you. Seriously. NOT this. The attitude of "I do what I want" is one of the most selfish and off-putting ones in any role-play community. If you're not going to respect Square Enix's creation then don't expect any in return.

 

He has a point, though; the type of person Edgar refers to is never going to give an IC white mage the legitimate chance they deserve. Why waste one's time attempting to appease the unappeasable? It's an exercise in futility.

 

As this thread shows, most people are ok with various interpretations of the WHM job, so long as it is down while not blatantly contradicting any lore.

 

Maybe that specific person can never be appeased, but I think there are more constructive paths to take then "Fuck you I do what I want." And again, as this thread shows, you have lots of options for non lore breaking white magic.

 

I mean the same argument could be made of anything lore breaking. Rather than get defensive from pushback, try to learn something from it, and figure out how to RP whatever it is you want within the lore.

[Dat Oni]

If my post is going to cause further havoc I would like to motion that it be removed? It could have been worded better; looking at it objectively, the decision to speak bluntly was not a good one.

[111]

If my post is going to cause further havoc I would like to motion that it be removed? It could have been worded better; looking at it objectively, the decision to speak bluntly was not a good one.

 

I don't think it's causing Havoc Edgar, just discussion.

[Warren Castille]

It's possible to be confident without being close-minded. Everyone's overlooking the meta, I think, that also exists in a pretty secure grey bubble: If someone claims to be a white mage, not everyone ICly is going to have the knowledge of what that job entails. I don't imagine very many folks can stand up and shout THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, YOU CAN'T BE ONE BECAUSE THE ELEMENTALS FORBID IT! Does anyone casually know the inner workings of Padjal society? What they really are? What they can do?

 

If someone says they're a White Mage and they're out of place (read: not protecting the Shroud) it's reasonable to express doubt. If they then show they can channel succor, it's also reasonable to express surprise. Something I've always said is that the average person isn't going to know what succor feels like anyway: If we buy into the "your aether is personal and different depending on the user" fluff then no two healers would "feel" the same anyway.

 

I'm rambling a bit because sleepy Warren is sleepy, but it comes down to plausibility. Running around Limsa Holy-bombing things is much less believable than, say, a healer going on a pilgrimage to study the extent of the Calamity. Write what you want, but try to be respectful. If it flows, people will respond positively to it.

[111]

I agree Warren.

 

I ran into a lot of similar issues, and a lot of OOC rage because I played a Sultansworn that went out on missions and acted sort of like law enforcement. Aka I didn't just stand upstairs in the royal area.

 

There were lots of people that raged, but just as many that helped me figure out a way to play it within the lore, and to know what that lore was.

 

I think it's important to understand people's hesitancy if you're RPing a character that is questionable lore wise, but as Warren says, if you do your homework and play it well, people will come around.

[LiadansWhisper]

Honestly I was banking on the 51-60 to open up new avenues, like they seem to be doing for every other job, but... apparently not?

 

Nope.  Sadly, it did nothing of the sort.  Quite honestly, the writing was rather blah and I was pretty disappointed by the story in general (although it did provide some nice lore tidbits along the way).

 

It's possible to be confident without being close-minded. Everyone's overlooking the meta, I think, that also exists in a pretty secure grey bubble: If someone claims to be a white mage, not everyone ICly is going to have the knowledge of what that job entails. I don't imagine very many folks can stand up and shout THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, YOU CAN'T BE ONE BECAUSE THE ELEMENTALS FORBID IT! Does anyone casually know the inner workings of Padjal society? What they really are? What they can do?

 

If someone says they're a White Mage and they're out of place (read: not protecting the Shroud) it's reasonable to express doubt. If they then show they can channel succor, it's also reasonable to express surprise. Something I've always said is that the average person isn't going to know what succor feels like anyway: If we buy into the "your aether is personal and different depending on the user" fluff then no two healers would "feel" the same anyway.

 

I'm rambling a bit because sleepy Warren is sleepy, but it comes down to plausibility. Running around Limsa Holy-bombing things is much less believable than, say, a healer going on a pilgrimage to study the extent of the Calamity. Write what you want, but try to be respectful. If it flows, people will respond positively to it.

 

Well, bear in mind that it is forbidden magic, so some people might even have a really hostile reaction.

 

My personal opinion is that a White Mage would not be doing anything to advertise the fact that they are a White Mage.