[NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it?

[Aysun]

Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

 

Oh. It's a personal preference. I never said it was inappropriate for use, just that I prefer when people use words that are used by NPCs (I listed some examples) instead. Not like I haven't used 'fuck' in RP before. It's not used by NPCs likely due to game rating, as you said, but they use substitute words and sayings to communicate the same thing, so why not use what they are? Just more immersive imo when people put thought into fitting into the environment we have. Doesn't mean people are wrong not to, or wrong for writing differently, or wrong for not knowing any better.

I'm asking because I want to figure out why people think it doesn't fit, as you said. Why does the word become jarring for some? Why does the word make it stand out instead of it just fitting right in? Why does the word not fit Eorzea's environment?

 

Is it because it's a word we use often now?

 

I see no reason at all for why it shouldn't fit. It is not as if it is a new word. It's not a new phrase.

 

It literally only doesn't "fit" well to me personally because it is not used by the NPCs. It makes it jarring at first, yes.

[Oli!]

Andy Wuhl's series "Assume the Position," while done for comedy/entertainment, also has some great tidbits. It includes a whole bit about how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew." Though this supposedly has more to do with the meaning of the the back handed peace sign in England. Still, the series has a bunch of neat little tidbits like that for the curious.

 

This is a false etymology, apparently.

 

It's especially noticeable if we go by dates. The papers regarding "Roger Fuckebythenavele" are from 1310, and his "last name" is clearly a sexual reference. It's therefore not unlikely that in the year 1310, you were able to say that you were going to "fuck someone," or "I'm going to fuck you," in the literal sense that you are going to have sexual intercourse with someone. The Battle of Agincourt, meanwhile, was in 1415, more than a hundred years after the word Fuck has been in use.

 

This isn't quite the insulting form of "Fuck You," but if the phrase was still in practice under another meaning (or potentially even the same meaning, considering that the idea of domination through sex is a concept that's basically older than the English Language itself), it's highly unlikely that it came from something that was phonetically similar.

[Yssen]

Andy Wuhl's series "Assume the Position," while done for comedy/entertainment, also has some great tidbits. It includes a whole bit about how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew." Though this supposedly has more to do with the meaning of the the back handed peace sign in England. Still, the series has a bunch of neat little tidbits like that for the curious.

 

This is a false etymology, apparently.

 

It's especially noticeable if we go by dates. The papers regarding "Roger Fuckebythenavele" are from 1310, and his "last name" is clearly a sexual reference. It's therefore not unlikely that in the year 1310, you were able to say that you were going to "fuck someone," or "I'm going to fuck you," in the literal sense that you are going to have sexual intercourse with someone. The Battle of Agincourt, meanwhile, was in 1415, more than a hundred years after the word Fuck has been in use.

 

This isn't quite the insulting form of "Fuck You," but if the phrase was still in practice under another meaning (or potentially even the same meaning, considering that the idea of domination through sex is a concept that's basically older than the English Language itself), it's highly unlikely that it came from something that was phonetically similar.

 

Etymology and symbology are both two completely different things, and both evolve quite differently. They are similar in that they are rooted in the culture and people of particular eras, but how they evolve is completely different. Both have there place in helping to understand a period culture. That said, no one can actually be 100% certain of any of it. Much like digging up dinosaur bones, we only have our best guesses.

 

Still, the point was interesting tid bits on the creation of curses and swears. How they are formed and how they come to be used in language by people, and how that could be applied to Eorzea. Background research and writing technique over factual etymology and symbology. For example, Ala Mhigans may use the name of their mad king as a swear or curse because he ultimately lost them their homeland.

[Oli!]

 

 

 

Etymology and symbology are both two completely different things, and both evolve quite differently. They are similar in that they are rooted in the culture and people of particular eras, but how they evolve is completely different. Both have there place in helping to understand a period culture. That said, no one can actually be 100% certain of any of it. Much like digging up dinosaur bones, we only have our best guesses.

 

Still, the point was interesting tid bits on the creation of curses and swears. How they are formed and how they come to be used in language by people, and how that could be applied to Eorzea. Background research and writing technique over factual etymology and symbology. For example, Ala Mhigans may use the name of their mad king as a swear or curse because he ultimately lost them their homeland.

 

This is very true. However, I was responding specifically to what was stated about:

 

how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew."

 

Which is both an etymology and inaccurate.

 

However, the rest of this is a very fun thing that people have been playing with before. I once heard of several people using the term "Mhigan Victory" instead of "Pyrrhic Victory," for instance, since Eorzea has no General Pyrrhus. The problems that arise for things like that though is expecting everyone to agree on the phrase, as well as understand the reference in the first place.

[LiadansWhisper]

I generally don't try to police other people's language, because well, they're grown adults (ostensibly) and it's not my place.

 

If you're talking about cars in-character, though, I'll probably give you the side eye.

 

*sideeye*

What if you're a time travelling allagan.

 

Then you can talk about space ships ICly.

 

*sideeye*

[Sig]

My main character sometimes uses contemporary profanity as if it were candy.  Contemporary profanity with some historical context amounts to little more than a plausible stretch of lore.  Many have posted examples of profanity found in the game, and it is safe to assume that there would be additional profane terms used by NPCs if the publisher did not insist upon a "T" rating.  

 

The /vast/ majority of RP'ers I've observed using profanity do so in a tasteful manner.  Many characters come from unsavory or morally deviant backgrounds.  It is not surprising that those characters use profanity.  If anything, the complete absence of profanity can sometimes detract from immersion in many contexts, as such terms are fairly common in real life and fantasy settings.

[Katzenjammer]

Any sort of comparison of words used in our world with those that may or may not be used in a totally different world based solely on the imagination of those who wrote it is a false debate from the start, imho.  One can use our own history as an example in discussion perhaps, but Eorzea is not our past and therefore the comparison is moot.  Eorzea is not Renaissance Europe, Medieval Europe, the Shogunate of Japan, or any other time period of our past.  It is only vaguely based on real world cultures.  Every civilization has had words for what we consider foul language today.  They may not be the -same- as we use or may not have really been considered 'foul' perse depending on the culture, but we do not speak Eorzean either.  What we do, as RP'ers, is use English, Japanese, French, German, or whatever language may be our medium to -simulate- the language of Eorzea.  Which I'm quite confident (considering people are people) has foul language of an equivalent to that which we have today.  Or other cultures have had in our past, whatever.  

 

It's fun to discuss, I suppose, but methinks it's also much adieu over nothing

[V'aleera]

there's not really any basis to say fuck is lore breaking

 

Then it's probably a very good thing I didn't say it was.

[Dravus]

I have to admit that there's times when I find myself rolling my eyes at how crude some role-players choose to make their characters. It doesn't offend me but it does make me want to avoid getting involved. There's only so many times the word 'fuck' can be put in a sentence before it just comes across as obnoxious.

 

I have a strong preference for the use of creative insults native to the setting. The sort actively used by NPC's. I also feel like people should lay off cursing like a sailor in every sentence if they're in the middle of a public place. I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't want to see it when they're handing in a quest or trying the game for the first time.

 

Then again I've always found that the Quicksand is both very hit and miss whilst also not being a decent representation as to what the broader role-playing community is actually like.

[Ari Kagon]

I agree with the OP. Regardless of how long the words have been around or used in history, they do stand out and kind of kill the some of the immersion, for me at least. Words like "whore", I can read and not be so drawn to it standing out, simply because I've seen it used quite a bit in the fantasy genre.  But things like "cunt", "fuck", and even "shit" feel out of place for me. 

I think that it's because I hear this language used so much in every day speech that I automatically associate those words with the real world. I also think it has a lot to do with the lingo we see commonly used in FFXIV as a whole. There is plenty of dialogue in which a person is clearly swearing, but it's used in a more...eloquent manner (I suppose would be the proper way of saying it) than anyone would use in the outside world. 

 

Even if the use of "bad words" does break immersion for a moment, it doesn't necessarily kill the entire RP for me.

[Valence]

I think the issue is less than those words have a place in the setting, and a lot more that people tend to use them on a very gratuitous, over the top, basis.

 

When you tend to always go for the biggest superlative you can find, it eventually dampen a lot its meaning while creating a sort of linguistic discrepancy between people used to that to the point where some of the most extreme words are used on a hourly basis, and people that are not.

 

It's exactly like in cinema if you will: if you start only using close-up after close-up, then it loses its meaning pretty fast, especially when you eventually use one in a more justified moment that will just feel drown in the middle of all the other superfluous, over the top ones. 

 

In short, your enemy here might be less the lexical language used rather than the context in which it is used.

 

Beware of the cheese or you will end up pretty fast in a shoddy cheap pulp cliché.

 

 

Edit: also, one can also have to take into account the tone used by the setting and storytelling itself, and it's pretty bookish/convoluted english I find. Of course, that certainly doesn't prevent players to make the choice to darken their own setting a lot and go for different tones. And then, different tones clash together and can lead to... well. That.

 

I'm not sure if you've ever actually spoken to anyone irl.

 

Care to elaborate?

[Altitis Acquired]

I just saw someone in the Quicksand use "swiving" as a curse word.

Good works, guys. Keep listing more!

[LadyRochester]

I, for one, am not personally bothered by the use of "fuck" or even "cunt". I'm a bigger fan of the words "twat", but oh well. What we have to take into account, like others mentioned, is that most media writers shy away from these terms so their games/movies/series are not locked under an R-rating, which severely affects sales in some cases.

 

The only terminology that does bother me is the use of the word "Pussy", but that's more because I (personally) find it tackier and less tasteful than the rest of the (rather graphic) language. I feel like these words can be used in proper context while not being lore-breaking, though I wouldn't use them often.

 

 It's not like we have an Eorzean dictionary. That said, I would take applying RL history into the lore to compare with a grain of salt, after all, we are talking about a fictional universe that hardly resembles our own in any time. (It's highly unlikely people people in the 1600s built robots and airships.) 

 

Eorzea is a world that mixes futuristic elements with old ones, so comparing it to our medieval age feels a bit... Loose.

[OverlordOutpost]

I think the issue is less than those words have a place in the setting, and a lot more that people tend to use them on a very gratuitous, over the top, basis.

 

When you tend to always go for the biggest superlative you can find, it eventually dampen a lot its meaning while creating a sort of linguistic discrepancy between people used to that to the point where some of the most extreme words are used on a hourly basis, and people that are not.

 

It's exactly like in cinema if you will: if you start only using close-up after close-up, then it loses its meaning pretty fast, especially when you eventually use one in a more justified moment that will just feel drown in the middle of all the other superfluous, over the top ones. 

 

In short, your enemy here might be less the lexical language used rather than the context in which it is used.

 

Beware of the cheese or you will end up pretty fast in a shoddy cheap pulp cliché.

 

 

Edit: also, one can also have to take into account the tone used by the setting and storytelling itself, and it's pretty bookish/convoluted english I find. Of course, that certainly doesn't prevent players to make the choice to darken their own setting a lot and go for different tones. And then, different tones clash together and can lead to... well. That.

 

I'm not sure if you've ever actually spoken to anyone irl.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

*large amounts of Hogwash*

 

Well I'm glad you admitted to not being able to understand it; a massive insult towards everyone here isn't a great way to make you look good.  

 

Basically he said, "If you overuse the most extreme of curse words all the time, they start losing their meaning and power."

 

This is why in RL if my one friend says Fuck, everyone laughs and keeps talking.  Meanwhile, if I say Fuck, the entire place goes silent because I'm clearly incredibly angry at something.

 

If you need smaller words I can try.

 

----

 

My own views, I don't like using 'modern' cursing like "fuck"/"shit"/"cunt" and whatever in the game. In part because the game has it's own list of words it uses to replace those that fit the FF14 setting (not actual history). Secondly in part because living in a big city and teaching high schoolers, I literally hear a bunch of teenagers spew these words out every other sentence every day.

 

Because of that, those words just mean you sound uncreative, inmature, or super-edgy to me. Whereas stuff like "whoreson" I never hear, so I don't associate it with that. They're new, different, and a bit more poetic.

[Valence]

Another thought occured to me also... Please take it with a whole spoon of salt since it might touch sensitive topics.

 

Some curse words like cunt, bitch, and especially pussy, can be considered, especially today, as incredibly sexist. The same way the saying "having the balls to do something" (can be replaced with "guts"), is, in a way. It belittles or outright puts the female gender to a subpar position in comparison.

 

This is not to say that those words are necessarily bad, especially if you want to portray someone that well... is sexist. Or, if you consider that the time period is inherently sexist. 

 

After all, I have seen several mentions of "bitch" in a few quests, so there is that too.

 

Please note that I have no strong feeling on those as long as they are kept IC in a justified context, but I think it is an important thing to keep in mind as it can ruffle sensibilities.

[Kage]

Another thought occured to me also... Please take it with a whole spoon of salt since it might touch sensitive topics.

 

Some curse words like cunt, bitch, and especially pussy, can be considered, especially today, as incredibly sexist. The same way the saying "having the balls to do something" (can be replaced with "guts"), is, in a way. It belittles or outright puts the female gender to a subpar position in comparison.

 

This is not to say that those words are necessarily bad, especially if you want to portray someone that well... is sexist. Or, if you consider that the time period is inherently sexist. 

 

After all, I have seen several mentions of "bitch" in a few quests, so there is that too.

 

Please note that I have no strong feeling on those as long as they are kept IC in a justified context, but I think it is an important thing to keep in mind as it can ruffle sensibilities.

I would argue, then, that 'whore' is just as sexist and belittling as 'bitch' is.

 

As a personal taste I don't like the words 'pussy' or 'cunt' used as slurs but the game does use 'whoresons' a variant of sons of a bitch/sons of bitches. I'm not sure of when bitch has been used in-game but... yeah.

[Virella]

Another thought occured to me also... Please take it with a whole spoon of salt since it might touch sensitive topics.

 

Some curse words like cunt, bitch, and especially pussy, can be considered, especially today, as incredibly sexist. The same way the saying "having the balls to do something" (can be replaced with "guts"), is, in a way. It belittles or outright puts the female gender to a subpar position in comparison.

 

This is not to say that those words are necessarily bad, especially if you want to portray someone that well... is sexist. Or, if you consider that the time period is inherently sexist. 

 

After all, I have seen several mentions of "bitch" in a few quests, so there is that too.

 

Please note that I have no strong feeling on those as long as they are kept IC in a justified context, but I think it is an important thing to keep in mind as it can ruffle sensibilities.

Because you know, perhaps, maybe, very maybe, Eorzea doesn't have SJW issues.

 

Leave them out the door please, and keep roleplay to roleplay, because god, bringing real life issues into roleplay irritates the fuck out of me.

[Ignacius]

Honestly... it's a matter of RP characterization.

 

If people are using profanity just to use it, it's a bit like listening to a band using the language just to use it.  It sounds forced and pathetic.  I've used strings of profanity at times on other characters, but it's meant to show characterization.  A lack of education and proper etiquette.  It doesn't work if you're otherwise eloquent because it sounds forced:

 

"Margerie and I papproached to the porte cochere, though we found it impossible to properly drive the coach below the fucking thing..."

 

Doesn't really work.  MY WoW main, Zumoktaga, sounds like he has an extremely loose education and that he lacks a degree of social grace:

 

"Pulled th'damn coach up!  Y'ain't fittin' th'fuckin' thing under that'n, not 'less y'wanna give't a fuckin' haircut!"

 

However, can become a great point of punctuation if a normally proper character lets slip the hound of fucks during a tense moment.  Just make sure it comes off as a snap instead of your character suddenly going from Maggie Smith to Lil Wayne.

 

In the end, it's nothing to really be offended over if it's truly part of a character's characterization.  If he calls a woman a bitch and it's offensive, take it as their character being offensive to your character.  Some decent people are playing repugnant characters, so don't figure they're all just trolling before you know.

[Avira]

So a quick recap here. (Or maybe long... starting to write!)

 

I've been enjoying reading the posts and did learned a lot as well. I would like to first thank everyone who has been participating in this debate. It has been enjoyable to see such topic did stayed in calmly handled! :thumbsup:

 

From what I understand here, is the majority seem to not be entirely against, as long as it portrait the character. The usage of words is a thing accepted despite their nature and origins. The historical display of some word is also another fact that was mostly great to learn about.

 

Personally my first language is French, and it did have enlightened me a lot on the matter. To be fair, I brought this debate to know the community point of view and to see if it would be accepted. But also I hope that people who also have another first language or maybe not a such deep mastery of English did learned too, since everyone is from a different place when it comes to international games like FFXIV is.

 

However from what I understand, while these words are accepted, it seems another half, while not minding them. Like it to be done moderately, without them being abused in IC context.

 

While few disapprove of their use but will be keen to accept the character as how they are.

 

To be brief, what I gather is the community does accept it as long the joy of simply role playing does remain the priority. I, personally have learned a lot and I feel that I did learn a lot about the use of coarse words in role play context.

 

It has been great to read everyone! Thank you for this wonderful debate!

~Avi

[Valence]

Another thought occured to me also... Please take it with a whole spoon of salt since it might touch sensitive topics.

 

Some curse words like cunt, bitch, and especially pussy, can be considered, especially today, as incredibly sexist. The same way the saying "having the balls to do something" (can be replaced with "guts"), is, in a way. It belittles or outright puts the female gender to a subpar position in comparison.

 

This is not to say that those words are necessarily bad, especially if you want to portray someone that well... is sexist. Or, if you consider that the time period is inherently sexist. 

 

After all, I have seen several mentions of "bitch" in a few quests, so there is that too.

 

Please note that I have no strong feeling on those as long as they are kept IC in a justified context, but I think it is an important thing to keep in mind as it can ruffle sensibilities.

Because you know, perhaps, maybe, very maybe, Eorzea doesn't have SJW issues.

 

Leave them out the door please, and keep roleplay to roleplay, because god, bringing real life issues into roleplay irritates the fuck out of me.

 

Well, as I said, take it with a whole spoon of salt, and I am sorry that I irritated you. 

 

I feel though, that this doesn't make those issues less important for the actual people concerned, that you care or not. I was just pointing that out, and it is a factor that sometimes enters the equation.

[K'nahli]

They stand out to me because they do not occur naturally in-game, and for that reason, I don't particularly like seeing them. It feels uncreative and cheap. It may well be that the rating is what's holding the game back from the use of such terms, but somehow I have difficulty imagining such coarse language in a game like FF14.

 

And finally, I've asked questions in the past where I was often responded to with comments saying that, while there are aspects of the game that correlate to real life examples and situations, it wouldn't be quite correct to make assumptions that other similarities exist without any evidence of that being the case. So, embracing that approach, I'm probably not going to canonically accept that those words exist in Eorzea personally - not that that would stop me from RP'ing with someone or anything.

[Michaux]

Another thought occured to me also... Please take it with a whole spoon of salt since it might touch sensitive topics.

 

Some curse words like cunt, bitch, and especially pussy, can be considered, especially today, as incredibly sexist. The same way the saying "having the balls to do something" (can be replaced with "guts"), is, in a way. It belittles or outright puts the female gender to a subpar position in comparison.

 

This is not to say that those words are necessarily bad, especially if you want to portray someone that well... is sexist. Or, if you consider that the time period is inherently sexist. 

 

After all, I have seen several mentions of "bitch" in a few quests, so there is that too.

 

Please note that I have no strong feeling on those as long as they are kept IC in a justified context, but I think it is an important thing to keep in mind as it can ruffle sensibilities.

Because you know, perhaps, maybe, very maybe, Eorzea doesn't have SJW issues.

 

Leave them out the door please, and keep roleplay to roleplay, because god, bringing real life issues into roleplay irritates the fuck out of me.

Real life issues can and do affect RP. A more extreme example would be sexual violence - most RP FCs, even those with dark themes, won't allow that kind of RP because it can do real OOC harm. Sexist slurs don't have the same potential to be triggering, but there is still reason to consider how and why you're choosing to use them and whether there are less offensive alternatives that would work just as well. I mean true, you could be playing a sexist character and maybe that's just how they talk. But it doesn't hurt to keep in mind that those words are used in real life to oppress and demean real people and maybe those real people would prefer not to encounter them in RP.

 

As for other types of profanity in RP, it really doesn't bother me at all. I don't see how it breaks immersion when those words have been in our language for centuries.

[Nero]

Using "modern--modern in the sense that it is commonly used in every-day language--swears in what is ostensibly a high fantasy setting is, to me, as wildly out of place as speaking early modern English in Star Wars. It's not that I mind profanity--anyone who's spoken to me on voice is probably aware that I swear more than most--but it's anachronistic and immersion breaking to me.

 

I'm certain that there are at least a few reasons with which to justify the usage, but it feels wrong and jarring to me.

[Oli!]

Using modern swears in what is ostensibly a high fantasy setting is, to me, as wildly out of place as speaking early modern English in Star Wars. It's not that I mind profanity--anyone who's spoken to me on voice is probably aware that I swear more than most--but it's anachronistic and immersion breaking to me.

 

I'm certain that there are at least a few reasons with which to justify the usage, but it feels wrong and jarring to me.

 

I think we've already established that age is not the issue, considering that "modern" swear words have been around just as long as most of the rest of the language.

 

Personal Flavoring may be an issue, but age is not.

[Faye]

Using modern swears in what is ostensibly a high fantasy setting is, to me, as wildly out of place as speaking early modern English in Star Wars. It's not that I mind profanity--anyone who's spoken to me on voice is probably aware that I swear more than most--but it's anachronistic and immersion breaking to me.

 

I'm certain that there are at least a few reasons with which to justify the usage, but it feels wrong and jarring to me.

 

I think we've already established that age is not the issue, considering that "modern" swear words have been around just as long as most of the rest of the language.

 

Personal Flavoring may be an issue, but age is not.

 

^ This. I really wish people would stop saying that "modern" profanity doesn't fit the time period. It does. Most really aren't that "modern." If you still don't like it as personal preference, that's fine, but I wish people would stop using that argument, because it's wholly inaccurate.