3.3 & 3.4 Housing Updates

[C'kayah Polaali]

You know player position is polled every 100-300 milliseconds, right? That has to be sent to the server and broadcasted to the entire zone. For every player. When there's a server issue, it's usually bandwidth-related or something done to prevent a bandwidth issue. The whole reason instances are well, fast and instanced is for that exact purpose.

 

Why should the player position code, which has to deal with mobile players moving around an area, have anything to do with the code that sends out information on the immobile things in an area?

 

It doesn't really matter, I suppose. The game is what it is. Though I have to admit, I would love it if a limitation like this addressed crafting or the endgame. "Unfortunately your HQ synthesis failed because the server cannot contain any more HQ Thavnairian bustiers..."

[111]

You know player position is polled every 100-300 milliseconds, right? That has to be sent to the server and broadcasted to the entire zone. For every player. When there's a server issue, it's usually bandwidth-related or something done to prevent a bandwidth issue. The whole reason instances are well, fast and instanced is for that exact purpose.

 

Why should the player position code, which has to deal with mobile players moving around an area, have anything to do with the code that sends out information on the immobile things in an area?

 

Because they're not immobile.

 

Any player can move them at any time, and collision boxes need to be updated immediately for all players.

[C'kayah Polaali]

You know player position is polled every 100-300 milliseconds, right? That has to be sent to the server and broadcasted to the entire zone. For every player. When there's a server issue, it's usually bandwidth-related or something done to prevent a bandwidth issue. The whole reason instances are well, fast and instanced is for that exact purpose.

 

Why should the player position code, which has to deal with mobile players moving around an area, have anything to do with the code that sends out information on the immobile things in an area?

 

Because they're not immobile.

 

Any player can move them at any time, and collision boxes need to be updated immediately for all players.

 

*eyeroll*

 

Transmitting only a delta of changed data is computer science 101.

 

I am really amused at the SE apologists, though. I mean, I'm sure they're doing the best they can. Gold star for the housing. Don't change a thing.

[111]

You know player position is polled every 100-300 milliseconds, right? That has to be sent to the server and broadcasted to the entire zone. For every player. When there's a server issue, it's usually bandwidth-related or something done to prevent a bandwidth issue. The whole reason instances are well, fast and instanced is for that exact purpose.

 

Why should the player position code, which has to deal with mobile players moving around an area, have anything to do with the code that sends out information on the immobile things in an area?

 

Because they're not immobile.

 

Any player can move them at any time, and collision boxes need to be updated immediately for all players.

 

*eyeroll*

 

Transmitting only a delta of changed data is computer science 101.

 

I am really amused at the SE apologists, though. I mean, I'm sure they're doing the best they can. Gold star for the housing. Don't change a thing.

Coming off a little spicy there, friend. 

 

I am sorry their implementation isn't to your liking.

[C'kayah Polaali]

You know player position is polled every 100-300 milliseconds, right? That has to be sent to the server and broadcasted to the entire zone. For every player. When there's a server issue, it's usually bandwidth-related or something done to prevent a bandwidth issue. The whole reason instances are well, fast and instanced is for that exact purpose.

 

Why should the player position code, which has to deal with mobile players moving around an area, have anything to do with the code that sends out information on the immobile things in an area?

 

Because they're not immobile.

 

Any player can move them at any time, and collision boxes need to be updated immediately for all players.

 

*eyeroll*

 

Transmitting only a delta of changed data is computer science 101.

 

I am really amused at the SE apologists, though. I mean, I'm sure they're doing the best they can. Gold star for the housing. Don't change a thing.

Coming off a little spicy there, friend. 

 

I am sorry their implementation isn't to your liking.

 

That's not exactly what I'm referring to.

[K'nahli]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the housing system leaves a lot to be desired, but that doesn't stop them from reasoning as to why it is proving to be such a problem for the development team. Issues with what would otherwise appear to be technologically simple feats appear all throughout the game; it can often be simply impossible to hit an enemy that's moving while playing as a melee class - no matter how much you're sitting on it's tail.

 

I don't think anyone has come close to saying that "the important thing is that they tried" or that they shouldn't try to find a way to seriously revamp their system so that minor systems are as easy to work with as they should be for a game in this day and age. The impression I am getting, is that people aren't satisfied with an answer as conveniently pessimistic as 'SE doesn't care' or anything along those lines... and frankly I'm not either. There are a number of things I am dissatisfied with, the biggest one having absolutely nothing to do with technical restrictions but blunt hard-headedness on Yoshi's part, but it's clear that there are multiple issues that prevent the ease of implementation we would all hope for in the case of housing. It's borderline absurd to think otherwise.

[Kellach Woods]

The shitstorm on Balmung will be pretty damn good.

 

That's really all I know about housing.

 

In so far as lol SE is concerned, if Housing was the biggest problem we'd be pretty set, really.

[Warren Castille]

ITT: People who didn't play XI or 1.0, apparently.

 

SE can't make anything efficient. Player inventory storage was 30 items. Total. Equipment still consumed inventory. It could be expanded to 50 items, and then Square said "nope, memory limitations and PS2 limitations." Then they expanded to 60 items and went "Nope, can't do more, ps2 limits." Then they expanded to 70. Then 80. Then added a perk for security token users to get a mog satchel that gave you another 80.

 

I don't think they were lying. I think they just had years of shitty spaghetti code that made them not able to increase personal inventory because of bad programming that didn't make for a good MMO scenario. In a stand-alone Playstation game, you don't have to worry about years of growth, since your game is done at launch.

 

They did go on at length about how housing is complicated: The wards themselves also have to process everyone's chocobo and garden data to every person, and inside of the house I was under the impression the game is constantly checking to see if something gets moved/interacted with/whatever. I believe them, because I've seen them handle it all very poorly before. Twice now, if we're counting games and not specific incidents.

 

It's not the Square Defense Force insisting everything is fine. It's people pointing out that this is SE doing what SE does: Shitting things up and then needing to work extra hard to find a fix to a problem they should have anticipated.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

I wonder why they don't just... I dunno. I mean, here's an idea:

 

Know how we access the Workshop? Kay, what if we also had a Barn and a Greenhouse which we access the exact same way?

 

Inside the Barn, we could have a storage chest in which only items specifically relevant to Chocobos and the current "stable" stuff could be stored (krakka roots, color change items, cleaning brooms, etc) - and users who have permission to do so can direct-use those items without needing to withdraw them (so if there's krakka roots in the barn chest, you can feed the birds from the chest without needing to first withdraw them). You'd be able to visually see a few chocobos, and maybe give those who have "Barn Visuals" permission the ability to specifically select certain chocos to be excluded from the cycled list of the ones that could be seen, or to set certain chocos to always be visible if they're in the stable. Include the ability to have a chocobo racing interface NPC if desired, so that players who want to do chocobo racing could do it from the Barn instead of needing to go to Gold Saucer.

 

Inside the Greenhouse, a house has the maximum number of planting spots depending on its size (so I think 8 for a small, 16 for medium, and 24 for large) and a storage chest in which only seeds, grown plant items that have since been harvested, fertilizer, and other garden related items. Garden items which are relevant to the Barn could also be swiftly transferred from the garden chest into the barn chest without even needing to re-zone. 

 

This makes it so that the "updating data" for these only needs to be refreshed when there is a character who enters the Barn or the Greenhouse, thus rescuing the housing wards from the data drain.

 

As for the building exterior, we obviously no longer need the Stable or Garden items, so that frees up a couple of yard slots (YAY!). For players who do still want a visual representation, SE could add a couple new yard decor items called Barn and Greenhouse, and do a few different visual designs for them, so people could make them match their building. The only rule with it would be that just like the "awning" items, it would have to be placed right up against the exterior of the building. These would have no function, other than visual effect. I'd also say we need a roof decor item that looks representative of an airship dock, which would also serve no purpose other than to let a guild that wants to visually show the outside part of their workshop do so.

 

Good idea, right?

[Warren Castille]

I tried typing up a reply like five times but I kept banging my head on the fact that I don't actually know anything about programming so I can't come to any conclusions.

 

/me makes sad trombone noises.

[Kellach Woods]

It's not the Square Defense Force insisting everything is fine. It's people pointing out that this is SE doing what SE does: Shitting things up and then needing to work extra hard to find a fix to a problem they should have anticipated.

 

I can't think of a single MMO that doesn't have to do that constantly, and it's more on the producers/leads than the programmers themselves.

 

Also, speaking of the Armory Chest - if the next expansion or next patch cycle adds 2 jobs or more, it will be impossible to carry a single weapon for all the classes.

[C'kayah Polaali]

I tried typing up a reply like five times but I kept banging my head on the fact that I don't actually know anything about programming so I can't come to any conclusions.

 

* Warren Castille makes sad trombone noises.

 

I've written two small MMOs, so I like to think I understand the issues better than most. I get that poor choices lead to technical debt which limits options, but most of the work to do proper housing has been done. The houses are there. The maps are there. The wards (read: instances) are there, and available. The only thing they'd have to do to resolve this situation is increase the number of wards to suit the demand. Like I said before, it's not rocket science.

[111]

blegh nevermind.

[Valence]

I think you people are just speculating a brassing a lot of hot air, without any offense intended. 

 

You just don't know what's going on behind, you don't have the code to look at, you don't know their constraints, you don't know their producing directives either...

 

Honestly at this point, it could be anything, be it technical or just a mangement thing.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

I think you people are just speculating a brassing a lot of hot air, without any offense intended. 

 

You just don't know what's going on behind, you don't have the code to look at, you don't know their constraints, you don't know their producing directives either...

 

Honestly at this point, it could be anything, be it technical or just a mangement thing.

 

Or maybe... I mean if you really think about it...

 

[Warren Castille]

This is going to sound a lot more heated than I intend it to, but here goes:

 

Anytime I see someone say "All they have to do is..." I wonder why they're not working for the company involved. We've seen this for new companions, for new skills, for job balancing, for inventory, for egi skins, for mechanics, for raids, for dungeons, for flying mounts...

 

Businesses exist to make money. It makes zero sense for a company wanting money to intentionally sandbag and lose potential revenue. It has to be a "can't" instead of a "won't."

[Unnamed Mercenary]

You know player position is polled every 100-300 milliseconds, right? That has to be sent to the server and broadcasted to the entire zone. For every player. When there's a server issue, it's usually bandwidth-related or something done to prevent a bandwidth issue. The whole reason instances are well, fast and instanced is for that exact purpose.

 

Why should the player position code, which has to deal with mobile players moving around an area, have anything to do with the code that sends out information on the immobile things in an area?

 

Because they're not immobile.

 

Any player can move them at any time, and collision boxes need to be updated immediately for all players.

 

*eyeroll*

 

Transmitting only a delta of changed data is computer science 101.

 

I am really amused at the SE apologists, though. I mean, I'm sure they're doing the best they can. Gold star for the housing. Don't change a thing.

 

Look at the private server projects for the older games if you don't believe me. This game doesn't deal with deltas. That's how you end up with bots doing teleport hacks left and right with no error checking. It's not as bad in 2.0, but in 1.0, literally everything you saw the client do had to be processed on the server. NPC text, NPC items to sell. Even a large portion of the game menus needed a packet from the server to tell them what to do. 2.0+ likely isn't that different. It's a not a great design, but it's extremely likely that's what they kept doing.

 

The housing system could use a lot of improvements, but the changes you want or the games you're comparing it to would require throwing it out and redoing the entire thing. And that's not going to happen. Though I think the apartment system being introduced is probably an attempt at just that. It'll likely be completely instanced, if I have to guess, like a massive network of player rooms, but bigger.

[Warren Castille]

It's not as bad in 2.0, but in 1.0, literally everything you saw the client do had to be processed on the server. NPC text, NPC items to sell. Even a large portion of the game menus needed a packet from the server to tell them what to do.

 

I remember feeling really clever when I made a gear change macro to change from RP clothes to my PVE armor.

 

I felt substantially less clever when it took about 40 seconds to execute because of how clunky the 1.0 engine was.

[Valence]

I just hope that those apartments will not just be The Roost / The Hourglass / The Mizzenmast / The Forgotten Knight redux 2.0.

 

We will be able to do at least as many things in them as you can in your private room, right? Meaning, furnishing, inviting friends over, etc?

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I just hope that those apartments will not just be The Roost / The Hourglass / The Mizzenmast / The Forgotten Knight redux 2.0.

 

We will be able to do at least as many things in them as you can in your private room, right? Meaning, furnishing, inviting friends over, etc?

 

I think we're supposed to get most of the benefits, like customizing the room and I believe even gardening was planned.

 

I can't remember if inviting people was included, but I want to say yes. No idea on chocobos.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

This is going to sound a lot more heated than I intend it to, but here goes:

 

Anytime I see someone say "All they have to do is..." I wonder why they're not working for the company involved. We've seen this for new companions, for new skills, for job balancing, for inventory, for egi skins, for mechanics, for raids, for dungeons, for flying mounts...

 

Businesses exist to make money. It makes zero sense for a company wanting money to intentionally sandbag and lose potential revenue. It has to be a "can't" instead of a "won't."

 

Yeah, I get you. It's an awkward thing with business though - how do you hire someone "who has good ideas"? That's not really a qualification which has a metric behind it. Instead, they hire people who have degrees, with the hope that somebody who has that degree will also happen to have pretty good ideas. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

 

It's like that classic "Things I'd do as a supervillain" thing, where one of the little blurbs is "I would keep a toddler in my employ, and run all of my schemes past him. If he can find a problem with it, I'll revise the scheme." Sometimes the idea which seems really obvious to one person might go totally under the radar of a thousand other people.

[Valence]

I'll probably be a bit blunt so forgive me in advance... As someone that actually work in the industry - but I do believe it's true for almost every other business - anyone that shows up with "good ideas" without any experience of how it actually works inside, that would probably make my day.

 

It's a bit like someone being an amateur (and good) mechanic showing up at a car manufacturer and saying "Hire me, I'll revolutionize all your issues because the solution is obvious to me".

 

Well, we often get those by shitloads. Interns that think they know it all. They sure have the theorical knowledge, but they know jack shit how it actually works inside, how are the processes, and what the actual software is and its limitations. Or even professionals that come from other fields of computing. Someone showing up with a flower in the mouth like that and saying that... Well, you just facepalm most of the time.

[S'imba]

I agree people saying they got the answer to do things better, despite having zero experience in a field is an eye roll. Especially when the problem they see is a symptom of another problem. I mean an obvious solution that I see is probably only going to cause more problems elsewhere. Until I can see the whole picture and understand the entire organism of the issue then I probably won't come up with a proper solution.

[Aaron]

This is going to sound a lot more heated than I intend it to, but here goes:

 

Anytime I see someone say "All they have to do is..." I wonder why they're not working for the company involved. We've seen this for new companions, for new skills, for job balancing, for inventory, for egi skins, for mechanics, for raids, for dungeons, for flying mounts...

 

Businesses exist to make money. It makes zero sense for a company wanting money to intentionally sandbag and lose potential revenue. It has to be a "can't" instead of a "won't."

It's why I don't ever really add my opinion on the matter.

 

Sure I'll bitch about the odd stuff like dying weapons or whatever but you'll never hear me say "All they gotta do." 

 

Talking about this makes me wish I finished my gaming and design classes. I'd probably be working at Ubisoft in the next five years .

[Lydia Lightfoot]

At the same time, though, if every time someone had an idea for how to change an issue, that person heeded the ones who said "You're new and don't know the limitation of the system, so we're going to facepalm you"... how many great advances in technology would we be missing? 

 

Just an example, prior to railroads we didn't have any reason to develop the techniques needed to make tunnels through a mountain or leveled routes along the side of a slope. People transported goods using wagons, and there were simply certain places wagons could go and couldn't go. A lot of people probably said, "There's no way your fancy railroad thing will work, because the system isn't designed to be able to do that, there's mountains and rivers, we'd have to use the same routes the wagons all use, and then the wagons couldn't use them because wagon wheels don't go over train tracks very well."

 

If the system doesn't meet the needs of emerging ideas, then the system can be changed. Even a computer system. The computer only does the things we tell it to do, after all - any limits it has aside from hardware (which can be upgraded) exist because we programmed those limits.

 

EDIT: Anyway, this is getting off topic. I realized that after I posted this, but per forum rules I'm not going to delete it... just perhaps ask that nobody else reply to it? <<