RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion

[Aaron]

Sincerely, a salty ass tank.

 

Fuck you guys and your trashy DPS classes favoritism from SE.

[Sounsyy]

Sounsyy, it's time to come clean...do you work for SE?

 

You caught me.

 

 

...or did you. Please look forward to the answer... in 5.0!

[Teadrinker]

Welp. 10 points to Sounsyydor. Who predicted that almost verbatim like seriously if SE has you under an NDA you probably violated it lol.

 

But anyway...

 

Flamboyant, tuxedo wearing mages from....the harsh mountains where they can barely grow food I'm :dodgy:

 

 

Suit must be made out of sheeps wool or something. The lore of how they traveled to the Gyr Abania area seems to be the same but if they = Ala Mhigo then...I guess RIP any Monk lore people thought they would get in favor of the shiny new toy? >_>;

 

My guess would be they are their own subset of people but honestly the fact they are even from this area is honestly a little bonkers to me. Magic and science is something you focus on when not every hour of your day is going to basic survival which is what this area has just touted since it's inception. Bleh. I'm sure they'll find a way to inject it though...

 

Inject being the operative word.

[Aaron]

That is a very dapper dressed RDM Lalafell

[Gegenji]

That is a very dapper dressed RDM Lalafell

RDMs are pretty dapper in general. It's kind of their thing.

[Virella]

Flamboyant, tuxedo wearing mages from....the harsh mountains where they can barely grow food I'm :dodgy:

Well in SE defence, we really don't know what Ala Mhigan 'aesthetic' is. We've seen the Fist of Rhalgr, who are wierdo religious cult esque group, and a heap of poor hobos, refugees and mercenaries.

 

That said, I don't think it is that far-fetched beyond the 'flamboyant' aesthetic (once more for all we know it might be legit Ala Mhigan aesthetic >_>). Perhaps the RDM class was the 'upper' class type of job? Nobles ect? Ala Mhigans were after all super advanced compared to any other Eorzean city. So writing it off on "well they had to focus on survival" doesn't make exactly sense. They were a wartorn area, and if real life logic applies a little bit to it, nations who actively war then to progress quickly on warfare, so I don't see why it would be far-fetched to have RMD to have its origins there.

 

I think we were all just thrown off by the fact it looks super flamboyant. Honestly, aesthetic wise I could have said Ishgardian, but alas.

[Sounsyy]

Flamboyant, tuxedo wearing mages from....the harsh mountains where they can barely grow food

 

Magic and science is something you focus on when not every hour of your day is going to basic survival which is what this area has just touted since it's inception. Bleh. I'm sure they'll find a way to inject it though...

 

There's nothing in the official lore blurb that suggests Red Mages are around today. In fact, it'd be highly unlikely given the region's circumstances. As with most jobs, it's an ancient art that will face a "revival" at the hands of the WoL and eager adventurers.

 

So we can safely guesstimate their time period of existence around Years 1 - 350 ish, which is before the founding of Ala Mhigo, the solidification of the Fists of Rhalgr religion in the region, and during the height of the mage purges.

 

So the reason that there's tuxedo wearing mages in a harsh region with little food is because the mages were already there to begin with. You have a high population of magi refugees in the region, that magical talent isn't going to just go away just because their magicks are illegal. It makes more sense to have magic here than in any other region. Also given the fact it was the discovery of magic in the Fifth Umbral Era that brought civilization out of that dark time period, so perhaps they hoped a new form of magic born of their unity would help see them through the rising tide of destruction.

 

 

Side note: Also yes, very likely made of wool. Highlanders have been shepherding in the Abalathia region for 3000 years.

 

Sheep were domesticated by the Highlanders during the Age of Endless Frost. They spent countless years breeding the beastkin in an effort to produce animals that yielded a greater quantity of wool. The result is a species which now seems more fleece than flesh. Wild sheep can be seen grazing the grassy regions of La Noscea and Coerthas.

[Teadrinker]

Flamboyant, tuxedo wearing mages from....the harsh mountains where they can barely grow food I'm :dodgy:

Well in SE defence, we really don't know what Ala Mhigan 'aesthetic' is. We've seen the Fist of Rhalgr, who are wierdo religious cult esque group, and a heap of poor hobos, refugees and mercenaries.

 

That said, I don't think it is that far-fetched beyond the 'flamboyant' aesthetic (once more for all we know it might be legit Ala Mhigan aesthetic >_>. Perhaps the RDM class was the 'upper' class type of job? Nobles ect? Ala Mhigans were after all super advanced compared to any other Eorzean city. So writing it off on "well they had to focus on survival" doesn't make exactly sense. They were a wartorn area, and if real life logic applies a little bit to it, nations who actively war then to progress quickly on warfare, so I don't see why it would be far-fetched to have RMD to have its origins there.

 

I think we were all just thrown off by the fact it looks super flamboyant. Honestly, aesthetic wise I could have said Ishgardian, but alas.

 

Yeah, applying real life logic to the vedeo games never ends well. x.e I was taking in the direction of having the hierarchy of needs met like you need X met before you can focus on Y. X being food, shelter, etc and Y being developing anything cerebral.

 

Just from everything I saw in the game and read in the lorebook just led me to believe that the people in this area were hardass, tough as nails, martial af, 'punch you in the mouth and steal the food out of it' people until the unification and even even they didn't have a ton of resources. I think there's about 300-400 years in there though before the Fist came along where they were high off trade route coin where they might fit?

 

Note: Not a super fan nor super good at lore for this region. Just glossing over it and pointing out what makes sense to my mind.

[PhantasticPanda]

Flamboyant, tuxedo wearing mages from....the harsh mountains where they can barely grow food I'm :dodgy:

Well in SE defence, we really don't know what Ala Mhigan 'aesthetic' is. We've seen the Fist of Rhalgr, who are wierdo religious cult esque group, and a heap of poor hobos, refugees and mercenaries.

 

That said, I don't think it is that far-fetched beyond the 'flamboyant' aesthetic (once more for all we know it might be legit Ala Mhigan aesthetic >_>). Perhaps the RDM class was the 'upper' class type of job? Nobles ect? Ala Mhigans were after all super advanced compared to any other Eorzean city. So writing it off on "well they had to focus on survival" doesn't make exactly sense. They were a wartorn area, and if real life logic applies a little bit to it, nations who actively war then to progress quickly on warfare, so I don't see why it would be far-fetched to have RMD to have its origins there.

 

I think we were all just thrown off by the fact it looks super flamboyant. Honestly, aesthetic wise I could have said Ishgardian, but alas.

 

Maybe we're looking into it too deeply atm with Ala Mhigan influence. So far we only know Red Mages came from the ancestors of Amdapor and Mhachi, around the same region that houses Ala Mhigo, and if I recall correctly, they were primarily Midlander Hyurs and Lalafells. With Ala Mhigans being dominantly Highlanders, it could be as Sounssy stated, the Red Mages could have came before the Ala Mhigans, only to seclude themselves again as they came into power, which could explain their current 'absence'. I honestly don't see Ala Mhigans as the mage sort of society which they have focused so much on lancer legions and monks.

[Gegenji]

Flamboyant, tuxedo wearing mages from....the harsh mountains where they can barely grow food I'm :dodgy:

Well in SE defence, we really don't know what Ala Mhigan 'aesthetic' is. We've seen the Fist of Rhalgr, who are wierdo religious cult esque group, and a heap of poor hobos, refugees and mercenaries.

 

That said, I don't think it is that far-fetched beyond the 'flamboyant' aesthetic (once more for all we know it might be legit Ala Mhigan aesthetic >_>). Perhaps the RDM class was the 'upper' class type of job? Nobles ect? Ala Mhigans were after all super advanced compared to any other Eorzean city. So writing it off on "well they had to focus on survival" doesn't make exactly sense. They were a wartorn area, and if real life logic applies a little bit to it, nations who actively war then to progress quickly on warfare, so I don't see why it would be far-fetched to have RMD to have its origins there.

 

I think we were all just thrown off by the fact it looks super flamboyant. Honestly, aesthetic wise I could have said Ishgardian, but alas.

 

Maybe we're looking into it too deeply atm with Ala Mhigan influence. So far we only know Red Mages came from the ancestors of Amdapor and Mhachi, around the same region that houses Ala Mhigo, and if I recall correctly, they were primarily Midlander Hyurs and Lalafells. With Ala Mhigans being dominantly Highlanders, it could be as Sounssy stated, the Red Mages could have came before the Ala Mhigans, only to seclude themselves again as they came into power, which could explain their current 'absence'. I honestly don't see Ala Mhigans as the mage sort of society which they have focused so much on lancer legions and monks.

 

Not going to lie, when I read the bit about them fleeing the mountains of Ala Mhigo and whatnot... the first thing that came to mind was that jungle full of dinosaurs that apparently exists at the... south pole? in the X-Men universe. Just, instead of dinosaurs, it's a hidden enclave of ancient magic.

 

... which then immediately made me think of Dalaran and its big barrier shield in the older versions of WoW.

[LystAP]

Flamboyant, tuxedo wearing mages from....the harsh mountains where they can barely grow food I'm :dodgy:

Well in SE defence, we really don't know what Ala Mhigan 'aesthetic' is. We've seen the Fist of Rhalgr, who are wierdo religious cult esque group, and a heap of poor hobos, refugees and mercenaries.

 

That said, I don't think it is that far-fetched beyond the 'flamboyant' aesthetic (once more for all we know it might be legit Ala Mhigan aesthetic >_>. Perhaps the RDM class was the 'upper' class type of job? Nobles ect? Ala Mhigans were after all super advanced compared to any other Eorzean city. So writing it off on "well they had to focus on survival" doesn't make exactly sense. They were a wartorn area, and if real life logic applies a little bit to it, nations who actively war then to progress quickly on warfare, so I don't see why it would be far-fetched to have RMD to have its origins there.

 

I think we were all just thrown off by the fact it looks super flamboyant. Honestly, aesthetic wise I could have said Ishgardian, but alas.

 

Maybe we're looking into it too deeply atm with Ala Mhigan influence. So far we only know Red Mages came from the ancestors of Amdapor and Mhachi, around the same region that houses Ala Mhigo, and if I recall correctly, they were primarily Midlander Hyurs and Lalafells. With Ala Mhigans being dominantly Highlanders, it could be as Sounssy stated, the Red Mages could have came before the Ala Mhigans, only to seclude themselves again as they came into power, which could explain their current 'absence'. I honestly don't see Ala Mhigans as the mage sort of society which they have focused so much on lancer legions and monks.

 

Not going to lie, when I read the bit about them fleeing the mountains of Ala Mhigo and whatnot... the first thing that came to mind was that jungle full of dinosaurs that apparently exists at the... south pole? in the X-Men universe. Just, instead of dinosaurs, it's a hidden enclave of ancient magic.

 

... which then immediately made me think of Dalaran and its big barrier shield in the older versions of WoW.

 

Of note, I recall that the Black Mage corpses in Weeping City seem to be Highlanders.

[PhantasticPanda]

 

Of note, I recall that the Black Mage corpses in Weeping City seem to be Highlanders.

 

I think the dominant appearance of Hyurs in primarily Lalafells nations like Mhachi or even the mummies in Lalafellan tombs in Warn is just so.... We can actually see and fight them in a party/raid setting >.>

[Aedan Marceaux]

With any luck, the more detailed lore will state that it's not WoL "power tier" magic. Being a mix of two schools... maybe it'll be "dumbed down" so that the average Joe can use it without going through super special snowflake lore breaking school.

 

Not holding my breath. I'm expecting our local lore cat to be right. WoL only.

[Nero]

Well, it's not entirely surprising, and really it's not as implausible as it sounds.

 

Mountains can provide for thriving civilisations. Creative use of vertical space and implementation of terrace farming can provide for a sustainable population (historical example: literally any Andean civilisation ever) and an ample supply of agriculture. In FF, red magic has historically always been a mix of white and black magic, so the Amdapor-Mhach union was inevitable.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure people are focusing on the "flamboyant fencer" image way too much. While it's outright stated that RDM used rapiers from the very beginning, bear in mind that the feathered hat is most likely a modern interpretation of red mages i.e. it's what current practitioners wear, and it's probably what the RDM job mentor will be wearing.

 

A few hundred years ago when the Amdapori and Mhach were still getting things started, you can bet that red mages were dirt farmers with rapiers wearing whatever clothing they brought with them at the time. A couple of centuries gives massive room to change.

[Gegenji]

A few hundred years ago when the Amdapori and Mhach were still getting things started, you can bet that red mages were dirt farmers with rapiers wearing whatever clothing they brought with them at the time. A couple of centuries gives massive room to change.

 

Obviously the term "Red Mage" comes from the clay that caked their clothes as they eked out a living up on the mountains. :chocobo:

 

... Honestly, that's always been an odd egg to me. Why call the combination of black and white magic "red magic"? Unless it's another DnD reference, this time to the Wizards of High Sorcery from Dragonlance.

[Virella]

A few hundred years ago when the Amdapori and Mhach were still getting things started, you can bet that red mages were dirt farmers with rapiers wearing whatever clothing they brought with them at the time. A couple of centuries gives massive room to change.

 

Obviously the term "Red Mage" comes from the clay that caked their clothes as they eked out a living up on the mountains. :chocobo:

 

... Honestly, that's always been an odd egg to me. Why call the combination of black and white magic "red magic"? Unless it's another DnD reference, this time to the Wizards of High Sorcery from Dragonlance.

Because grey magic doesn't sound that awesome? Hells if we know!

 

Back on topic though... Given the lack of seeing them, unless they pull a 'they were always there but not really' type of thing, I suppose they got either rooted out and it will another super exclusive job, or perhaps the people in Gyr Abania somehow forgotten about it, or perhaps it was just one village with Mhachi/Amdapori people who practised it and their numbers are super low, or indeed wiped out again for x reason.

 

I just don't want more WoL only jobs x_X

[Obsidian]

I say red magic is too complex beyond our mind.

 

Or it trying to be a hipster

[Parth Makeo]

- delete -

[Theryl]

Poor mountaineers can still dress up in flashy clothes. 16th century Swiss mercenaries wore the same puff and slash clothes, fancy hats, and bling as their German, French, and Italian counterparts. 

 

Wool was a major trade commodity for centuries so it wouldn't be surprising if there wasn't a thriving wool trade to bring in food and luxuries (at least for the upper classes).

[Kismet]

If it turns out that RDM gets locked behind a Special Snowflake Wall like BLM/WHM, I have a guess that the lore could possibly be something like... a separate sect of casters during the time of the War of Magi tried to combine the two warring disciplines and ending up creating something that was eventually refined into Red Magic, only to be shunned and/or forgotten due to [insert conflict here].

 

This was my original theory from earlier in the thread, so it seems like I was definitely in the ballpark...

 

Now I just have to hope it's not also some super special locked off thing like I predicted. Otherwise, I'm going to have a really hard time justifying how the heck my character is supposed to mentor someone else in that art. (That or we may end up needing to ditch the idea almost entirely.) T_T

[Star Lin]

This actually works out really well then as I've already have it that John's and Tanya's Dad, Thomas, is from the Abalathia's Spine.  Shoot, I have to go and do a tumblr post then for Tanya to really start setting this up.

[Vexander]

Remember Sharlayans forbid by law the teaching of disciplines of war to outsiders. It's easy to think of them as peaceful teachers of knowledge, but they're not - they're isolationists who avoid having a hand in the outcome of a given war, even indirectly (by way of teaching one of its sides a new discipline). They would much rather stand by, watch thousands of people die, then write it all down. So although there were many classes available to foreign students, classes in astromancy were not among them.

 

This is a bit of a misunderstanding.

 

Sharlayans did teach outsiders the way of Astromancy, the elezen in Ishgard uses that magic, despite not being Sharlayan. There is a faction of Sharlayans known as the Bibliothecs who are fiercely isolationist and strictly against sharing any Sharlayan knowledge, though in particularly through the AST Job Quests, we see them focusing on Astrology. I imagine they hate the Scions incredibly.

 

That said, they're only a faction, not the dominant force ruling Sharlayan. As per the Lorebook, we know its Louisoix's Son who holds sway in the Forums right now, and his philosophy is that while Sharlayan as a nation will not intervene in the events of history as they unfold, every individual is free to pursue whatever path they wish. This is why the Scions of the Seventh Dawn haven't been dragged back to Old Sharlayan and put on Trial yet, and also why Alisae and Alphinaud were able to come to Eorzea to follow in their grandfather's footsteps.

 

 

 

The above having been said, I was pretty disappointed to learn that Red Mage is coming from Gyr Abania of all places. Considering the Lore Book notes that Sharlayan was founded by survivors of Amdapor and Mhach as well, one would figure it'd be the logical place. Making it Ala Mhigan feels like SE trying to go to the playerbase, "See, Stormblood isn't ALL about Doma! Ala Mhigo is getting a new Job too!"

 

Given all the FFXI references so far for Stormblood, I'm expecting the Red Mage village in Gyr Abania to be named, Thamasa.

[Gegenji]

Given all the FFXI references so far for Stormblood, I'm expecting the Red Mage village in Gyr Abania to be named, Thamasa.

 

Thamasa you say...? But there's no one who uses magic in Thamasa! What're you talking about?

 

(Actually the town being called Thamasa would be an amazing callback if it were true just based on what Thamasa in FF6 is. I want it to be true now.)

 

In all seriousness, wasn't the type of Astrology taught to the Ishgardians a different kind than the one that is being spread in the AST questline? I vaguely remember that being the sort of sticking point - "Ishgardian" Astrology helps forewarn of Dravanian attacks and the like and is generally passive and non-combatant. Meanwhile, "Sharlayan" Astrology is actually utilizing the power of the stars in an actual combat medium - which is a no-no for teaching according the Sharlayan principle.

 

So it wasn't that Astrology was being spread that was the problem, but it was the combat-oriented style of it. Or at least, that's how I recall it. I could be wrong.

 

... Also I totally thought Sharlayan would be where RDMs would've been from as well, even before the revelation of it being wrought of practitioners of both White and Black magic. I guess having two combat styles slip to the world from Sharlayan would've been too much for them to bear.

[Virella]

As far as we know the Sharlayan Scions aren't actively teaching people though. The Astrologian quest revolves around the fact that this NPC in particular is very insistent about it, despite Sharlayan's wishes that she would not.

 

I don't think Sharlayans have an issue with their countrymen and women travelling. Far from I imagine. The more knowledge gained the better. They just appear to draw the line at actively sharing knowledge they possess.

 

Still curious to see how she managed to get her hands onto it though. For all we know it is a lost art stored by the Sharlayans. Then again, she vanished for quite a while in the MSQ. So well uh. Who knows?

[Vexander]

The Scions do teach the Warrior of Light a few things, though arguably those might not be strictly Sharlayan. Such as the workings of aether back in the 2.X series. However you cannot deny granting the Warrior of Light access to Matoya's research on Aetheric Convergence, as well as the Anti-Tower of all places, certainly constitutes sharing Sharlayan knowledge with an outsider.

 

The difference between Ishgardian Astrologians and Sharlayan Astrologians primarily seems to be that the Ishgardian Astrologians focus on reading the stars to predict the future and completely ignore the magical aspect. If I'm remembering the quests correctly, the magical aspect was deemed borderline heretical because it did not come from Ishgard. That's another reason it was vastly unpopular amongst Ishgardians when Jannequinard kept trying to introduce it to Ishgard because of the good it could do.

 

That said, it seems to be the Bibliothecs who are against sharing knowledge with outsiders, particularly any knowledge with tangible affects on history, like magical knowledge. The Sons of Saint Coinach are another group of Sharlayans who do not seem to have an issue working with non-Sharlayans, though that seems to be less a case of them sharing specifically Sharlayan knowledge, and more them sharing knowledge about the Allagans they've uncovered.

 

I mean, put it this way. If the Sharlayans as a whole were dead-set against using their knowledge to assist other nations, then the Aetheryte Networks would've never been constructed.