discussion From the Source to the First (SPOILERS FOR SHB)

[Caed Ulchino]

Through roleplay, how would one attempt to travel to the First from the Source, so that our whimsical fantasies of our PCs playing through the light-flooded world could be reality (sort of). I may have a few ideas, and I would definitely love feed back! (Please note, at the time of writing this, I am just starting the ShB MSQ)

 

* Way #1: Faeries of the First are capable of travelling from the First to the Source, through the usage of (what I can guess) physical material from the Source. Thus, I believe that it could be very possible that, by happenstance, a stray faery wandering the Source could be used as transportation to the First.

 

* Way #2: A simple portal. Possibly a freak accident, or the effect of a small invasion of Sin Eaters entering the Source. A very. . . difficult occurrence to conjure up within one's mind, but also could be a possibly viable mode of transportation.

 

* Way #3: Aetheryte Mishap. This one is very unlikely, but I still put it on the table. Imagine you are using an experimental teleportation spell or are using aetheryte travel to a rather 'defunct' aetheryte. This may cause some fluctuation, and most likely resolve in a violent death. However, I am sure there could also be a slight chance that streams would cross and you can just so happen to end up within the world of the First. However, I find this idea, even if I made it myself, highly unlikely in any event.

 

* Way #4: Hydaelyn. A very simple concept for those who roleplay as those with the power of the Echo. Hydaelyn, either by proxy or by her own power, sends your character to the First, as possible aid in the effort to stem the flood of light.

 

These are the only things I could muster, and I will note that I am not particularly was well-versed on most topics and lore within the game. However, I truly wish that this post will hopefully sparks all manners of discussion on the manner, so that we could all find a way to allow our characters to enjoy the experiences of the First.

[Kieron Lohengrin]

The Ironworks are guarding and maintaining the pathway to Norvrandt via the device you found. It's also explicitly mentioned several times in dialogue that you're not the first or only traveler to come from the exarch's world, i.e. the Source, and that others have already come before you to explore. This can partly be in reference to Hildibrand, who went ahead of you to Norvrandt with Nashu via Greg portal. 

 

It's actually a tad amusing how blasé the Scions are about a planeswalking pixie giving them your updates, or ferrying shit back and forth to your retainers to sell. When you go back to Mor Dhona they just talk about how Arenvald has taken over primal suppression for you. You can imagine just how ambitious and hungry bigger groups like the East Aldenard TC or the House of Splendors might be for new, unusual resources from another world, but that's up to individual RP groups to think about and use. 

[Leezil]

As someone who's planning on RPing only in the First as a native, I'm looking forward to people like you who want to RP crossing over while sticking close to the lore! 

 

Your idea of pixies is a clever one, and probably the most broad "works for anyone and everyone" solution. This could especially be a good option for anyone who is RPing as an ally of someone who would be able to cross using another option. As Kieron mentioned, the Ironworks option could work for anyone involved with that as well. 

 

Since the shards were (are? Haven't finished the story yet) close to a Rejoining, maybe people with the Echo or who have had Light-aether related events happen to them have accidentally crossed over.

[Lucius Ignatius]

One thing I was curious about--is there a way to get back to the Source without twisting the lore backwards? It seems like (atm at least) only the WoL can get to and from the First safely? I may have not gotten far enough, but this question is killing me to know.

 

Kieron, I loved your mentions on the Faeries/Ironworks. My character has a strong connection with the Ironworks, and could end up as an explorer, but I probably wont decide on anything till I hear about returning haha. I dont wanna end up saying 'woo yeah!  I can get there!' without any means to return feasibly or with twisting lore back and forth

Edited July 2, 2019 by Lucius Volturcius

[Roger Holmes]

I have been thinking about this for some time before the expansion landed without a real good way to make it work. 

 

There is no way the Ironworks would let anyone take the WoL's device to duplicate without the risk of them not being able to return, and it sounded like the Exarch only left one device. The Exarch hasn't only summoned just the WoL, but would be hesitant in doing more due to spoiler-related stuff.

 

Another way would be however the Ascians did it for the original Warriors of Darkness, but meddling with Ascians is a big no-no to most characters.

 

Your faerie idea makes the most sense to me, honestly. They live to play with people, and what better way than to bring more into their world? How they do it is up in the air though since from the story, it sounded like they needed someone from the source to make a link (as well as a good reason for them letting you leave).

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Roger Holmes

[Lucius Ignatius]

6 hours ago, Roger Holmes said:

I have been thinking about this for some time before the expansion landed without a real good way to make it work. 

 

There is no way the Ironworks would let anyone take the WoL's device to duplicate without the risk of them not being able to return, and it sounded like the Exarch only left one device. The Exarch hasn't only summoned just the WoL, but would be hesitant in doing more due to spoiler-related stuff.

 

Another way would be however the Ascians did it for the original Warriors of Darkness, but meddling with Ascians is a big no-no to most characters.

 

Your faerie idea makes the most sense to me, honestly. They live to play with people, and what better way than to bring more into their world? How they do it is up in the air though since from the story, it sounded like they needed someone from the source to make a link (as well as a good reason for them letting you leave).

 

You know, that does make the most sense. They do take on 'saplings' as well, so I think it could be fairly plausible.

[Dravus]

I'm in favour of people just playing a character native to the First if they really want to role-play there. It's going to be awkward if every other role-player running around Norvrandt happens to be from the Source. It just serves to cheapen things.

 

On my end, I don't think I'll be acknowledging any world hopping unless it is handled very well and the character is stranded there and faces substantial difficulty with adjusting to what is effectively an alien world. Sadly I suspect many will seek to show up to attend an event in the First and then immediately jump back to the Source with minimal difficulty so they can attend a different event there the next day.

 

Each to their own, I guess, but it just seems counterproductive to me.

[Flynn Bladebreaker]

If there was a way for Source characters to travel to the First, that would make the entire story behind the Exarch summoning you pointless. All other methods seem to be theoretically possible but for the WoL/Scions only. Gilgamesh is a world hopper, that's his thing, so that wouldn't surprise me. Pixies appear in people's dreams to give them a message, so I'm not sure where people think they can use them as transportation. Random portals? Again would destroy the Exarch story. When there is mention that you aren't the first traveller, they means the Scions that have been summoned, it's been 5 years since one first came over.

Not trying to step on anyone's toes, it's just something that I don't think is possible at all for Source characters (or even First to Source, unless you die and have an Ascian to bring you over, good luck with that) without destroying the writing already in place. A First native seems the best way forward, even if it's an alternate universe character who's name or appearance can just be a coincidence, but who is going to know, really?

Edited July 9, 2019 by Flynn Bladebreaker

[Lucius Ignatius]

Some good points to consider there too. Its the main issues I struggle with when deciding if I want to actively go to or from the First for RP.

 

To be honest, this was one of my main issues with this expansion. Everything else was awesome! I just seriously wish they took into account lore that would give roleplayers some wiggle room for this issue.

 

I have a thought that there /will/ be lore eventually, because the scions have to return with the WoL at some point. And it seems like people we know on the First wont be totally vanishing from thin air. They could, but... I dunno.

 

For someone who enjoys following happenings in the MSQ for a good part of their RP, this expansion might be a little lackluster (besides the things happening in the Imperial Palace obviously). One of the main things I enjoyed about Stormblood because the threat was real, seen, and known by ordinary people. The First threats do matter, but for us RPers who primarily play on the Source, right now theres not much material, which is pretty frustrating IMO.

[Roger Holmes]

I think you three made some very good points on the validity of such a transportation and the lore behind it, Taldic, Flynn, and Lucius. No one but the Scions and Ironworks would really know that there is a First to even go to, let alone a means of transportation for common folk. As Flynn mentioned the 'others came before you' quote would have to be the Scions already there, not just some random folk from the Source. I'm not sure how the Exarch did the transportation, but I believe it has to do with either the modifications of the Crystal Tower, or he's using some sort of magic similar to the pixies to make a link to the Source. Whatever the case, I agree that using such a reasoning to get RPers there would make the Exarch's sacrifices and attempts rather pointless.

 

I do like Flynn's suggestion of just playing your character in an alternate universe type setting. New beginning, different choices along the way, see how your character could have turned out with a different environment.

 

So I think that until we learn more about the story through future patches, that having a means to travel there has to be shelved.

[yhvh13]

Originally when we were repeatedly told "Throw the gates wide open" in pre ShB patches, I was certain for sure that this meant a full open pathway between worlds. But hey, that was before finding out further details about the First.

 

Now, there's always the possibility of this happening in a future patch.

[Valence]

Spoiler

If you run the Twinning endgame dungeon it should shed a lot of light on how they managed to travel across the Rift, and not only that but through time as well. The end of the story explains how Graha'Tia, heir to the Allagan bloodline, is the only one able to use the Crystal Tower full abilities, and how he comes from a future Source devastated by an 8th Calamity. The travel method itself was designed by Cid and his Ironworks and completed by the following generations as a feat not even Ascians are capable or knowledgeable of. 

 

The principle behind is tied to the power of the Crystal Tower to open tears between shards in order to cross the Rift. This is what Xande did when doing his pact with Cloud of Darkness in the 13th (The Void). This is also what the WoL party does in the crystal tower series to go confront Cloud of Darkness right in her home before she can finally come across. In short, if you want to get across the Rift and bring with you your mortal flesh, then you must do what Voidsent rarely do, which is opening a tear wide and powerful and stable enough so that your whole person goes through. This is what the Syrcus Tower is capable of doing, and with enough energy, it could have been able to allow HUGE, combined entities like Cloud of Darkness to come through. The caveat is that it requires as stated, a lot of energy, and therefore a lot of aether.

 

What Ironworks does is also the big novelty here, by allowing crossing the Rift not only dimensionally, but also through time itself. They managed to do such a feat in the future by getting inspired by the study of various primals, and you can bet it refers not very subtly to Alexander. This is also confirmed by the last boss, Typhoon, which is a Garlond Ironworks creation and seems to be the brain controlling the time travel apparatus at the bottom of the energy reactor of Syrcus Tower.

 

 

In short you have 2 ways to travel across the rift: 

 

- You're an aetherial being like a faery, an integral soul like the Warriors of Darkness or Minfillia, or an Ascian and have mastered the proper methods to open tears to the rift at will and travel between shards.

 

- You're a standard person and you just use the Crystal Tower powers and energy to go through with your whole body and everything because you're not strong and powerful and knowledgeable enough to do it like an aetherial entity.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Valence

[Andromeda]

I know it stretches love (no more than some suggestions), but my Mateus endeavor, Sunset Destinations Travel Agency, has built a room dedicated to sending people to the First.

 

The idea is we use the connection provided by the Crystal Tower to piggyback of the Exarch and Warrior of Light bridge and send others along it. The more we send, the firmer that route would become. 

 

The Embarkation Room acts in part as an artificial aetheryte see those Garlean gates), transmitting to only one destination, thus skipping the destination attunement requirement (based on The Navel and 1.0 mechanics kinda). Sunset then sends Travelers to the Crysterium aetheryte. 

 

The intended limitation of this method, though users are free to ignore it, is that travel between worlds can only be done between these two points because the technology to piggyback off the Tower is only present at this location, but that's mostly for balance issues and totally fine to ignore.

 

If you're curious about the design, it's Goblet 2-4 Room 2 on Mateus.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Andromeda

[Noel Stirling]

Can someone tell me a bit more about how the Crystal Tower operates or what allows it to even maintain its presence since isn't it from another world? Is there technology within it that can send you to another fragment?

[Andromeda]

14 minutes ago, Noel Stirling said:

Can someone tell me a bit more about how the Crystal Tower operates or what allows it to even maintain its presence since isn't it from another world? Is there technology within it that can send you to another fragment?

 

From my understanding no. It's something the Exarch (a Time Mage pretty sure) kinda copied. That's why it acts as a bridge, it's entangled with the original Crystal Tower. 

 

Though I'm not done with the MSQ, there might be more to it.

[Lucius Ignatius]

Great responses on the Crystal Tower. I think, IF I were to have a character visit the First, they'd be experimenting with things via Crystal Tower. Lucius himself is an employ of the Ironworks, so I figure an accident of sorts could spit him out in the First for a time. Then he'd have to work to find a way back which would be the difficult part.

 

Im thinking almost like something similar to the old 'Army of Darkness' movie. Not a chosen one, but he'd have to have another 'accident' to get him home. I'd like to work in some longterm consequences of that. But. Either way, it's one flaky idea.

 

Still mostly convinced the future patches will help us with lore getting to/from there safer. Scions are more than one person.

[Valence]

2 hours ago, Noel Stirling said:

Can someone tell me a bit more about how the Crystal Tower operates or what allows it to even maintain its presence since isn't it from another world? Is there technology within it that can send you to another fragment?

 

It seems to point at the tower being able to open a rift wide enough not to only let the Exarch go through the rift from the future (with the help of Typhoon), but the full building itself, which must have required an insane amount of energy.

 

Now in the future they say on those Ironworks manifestos (found in the Twinning) that it took them a long time and many headaches to finally make the tower open to them and that they have to thank for that all the previous work made by the Sons of St Coinach on understanding allagan tech, tomestones, etc (in our epoch) for without which they wouldn't have been able to. Which basically means it took them eons to just open the tower and access it, meet/wake up Graha Tia inside, and then start working on using the tower to send people back in time through the Rift.

 

This goes without saying, besides maybe the Exarch, nobody in our epoch be it in the Source nor the First so far, has any clue how to use it again... Unless someone manages to pierce the mysteries left in the Twinning... especially since uh... the WoL blew up the Typhoon to prevent some funny guys (Ascians) to put their hands on it and start doing funky things with time... not in our favor.

 

 

Edit: in short, the Crystal Tower in the Source is the one we know, the one from our epoch/timeline. The Tower in the First though, is the Tower from the Source but in the future, when they transported it across the Rift and through time with the Exarch inside.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Valence

[Tregarde]

On 7/7/2019 at 1:43 PM, Roger Holmes said:

I have been thinking about this for some time before the expansion landed without a real good way to make it work. 

...

Another way would be however the Ascians did it for the original Warriors of Darkness, but meddling with Ascians is a big no-no to most characters.

 

Yeah... I wouldn't go that route.  Remember, the Warriors of Darkness HAD TO DIE to cross worlds.

 

Emet was amazed that the WoL came over, intact. So amazed that he kidnapped Exarch to find out how it was done. This means that Ascians do NOT know how to bring others across worlds without killing them.

 

Now... HOW spirits have seemingly solid bodies when they cross worlds... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited July 12, 2019 by Tregarde

[Leezil]

Been thinking about this more, and after talking to some friends about it who want to RP on the First but not as Natives, I have what I think is a solution that could work for some.

 

Just RP as a totally different person in the first. Easy to make it work. Someone who is RPing as traveling between Source/First might recognize a similarity but that's no different from what's happened in the MSQ. Just allow the two characters to exist as completely separate entities. Whether they share pieces of the same soul is up to you.

 

A step beyond this, and probably preferable imo, is to do this but RP traces of a connection between the two -- similar once again to certain NPCs but with the connection felt by that character. You could RP them as having some emotional/dream crossovers, whatever makes sense to you. I think we've seen evidence that this can happen. In this case, the characters would share pieces of the same soul.

 

I think I've seen people have character concepts along those lines, to me it works as a solution for those who want to RP in the First but don't necessarily need to have traveled.

[Kuzhuk]

 

17 hours ago, Tregarde said:

Emet was amazed that the WoL came over, intact. So amazed that he kidnapped Exarch to find out how it was done. This means that Ascians do NOT know how to bring others across worlds without killing them.

 

Unukalhai seems to be an exception to this rule. Some of his quest dialogue implies he isn't dead. He mentions protecting himself with magic before Elidibus came to save him... but that could just mean he kept himself from turning Voidsent, and still had to die. So shrug.

I wonder if maybe the WoD didn't have to die, but whatever the Ascians did to them essentially required their death so that they could be made invincible to be worthy adversaries for the WoL. You also have to figure, if they traveled in spirit and their bodies remained like the Ascians, there's a damn good chance people would've killed their bodies while they were gone...

I don't know, this stuff is really not super well defined. We have a lot of shard travelers in the Source that haven't even been mentioned yet. Midgardsomr, for instance.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Kuzhuk

[Valence]

Midgardsormr doesn't exactly come from another shard, but another Star. 

[Kieron Lohengrin]

It's a bit of a moot argument at this point, since people have already been roleplaying ingame publicly in the new areas as their mains in both Balmung and Mateus, which has been great to watch and join in on. Il Mheg seems to be a popular destination simply because of how pretty it is, followed by the Crystarium as the new Mor Dhona / Idyllshire-style adventurer-life hub. Then the strip club in Eulmore, rofl

From talking to people both ingame and on Discord they'll simply cite who they want to cite, be it Ironworks devices and time travel, or Lightning / Iroha-style dimensional travel (some using the Crystal Tower housing items), or some variant thereof. Some even drawing on Amaurot by now. But at the end of the day, ordering people or trying to badger them into not having long-term plots and character development in the new expansion they paid for will simply get you laughed at.

 

Of course, there'll always still be the same crowd that never leaves the Quicksand, but that's also to be expected. Both will continue to exist at the same level of plausibility in the same world. Shad is the expansion that permanently yanked the setting and its inhabitants out into high-powered fantasy and lovely moral ambiguity, if the flying cars, regular primal hunts, and planeswalking cyborg horses weren't hints enough. And if roleplayers think their immersion and verisimilitude is being threatened now, just wait til Yoko Taro gets his hands on the history and lore in a few weeks. Maybe we won't get something too far-reaching and fucked up a la Drakengard, but at the very least lots of bunnies start running around in 2B outfits, being all lovely and IC.

[Dravus]

It's not really a 'moot argument', especially when a decent amount of role-players avoid taking the approach where anything goes. I doubt anyone here is surprised that there's people role-playing on the First with little regard for the logistics - though I'll say that despite running around the zones frequently since launch the amount of role-players that I have seen has been fairly low so far when compared to the amount that I've seen in the older zones. There's also the simple fact that it takes away from the narrative and the struggles of the inhabitants of the First if there's a bunch of Source characters showing up to go adventuring. 

 

I'm sure the site's image tab will soon be flooded with players eager to show off their character running around in the new zones, though.

 

At any rate, it is my firm belief that not every character needs to be involved in every single element of the game's ongoing story. Yes, it's a high fantasy game and that's part of the charm though the story is written in a particular way and a lot of us prefer to stick to what is established as plausible in terms of the world building. Coming up with a contrived excuse to join in with something just because it happens to be shiny and new isn't to everybody's tastes, either. Especially when the biggest heroes in the setting cannot jump to and from the First on a whim. At the moment, the only exception is the Warrior of Light - and I'd wager most people aren't playing as the ultimate hero of the setting.

 

I'm fairly certain the situation will change in due time. It's just a matter of patience, really.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Taldric

[Lucius Ignatius]

3 hours ago, Kieron Lohengrin said:

It's a bit of a moot argument at this point, since people have already been roleplaying ingame publicly in the new areas as their mains in both Balmung and Mateus, which has been great to watch and join in on. Il Mheg seems to be a popular destination simply because of how pretty it is, followed by the Crystarium as the new Mor Dhona / Idyllshire-style adventurer-life hub. Then the strip club in Eulmore, rofl

From talking to people both ingame and on Discord they'll simply cite who they want to cite, be it Ironworks devices and time travel, or Lightning / Iroha-style dimensional travel (some using the Crystal Tower housing items), or some variant thereof. Some even drawing on Amaurot by now. But at the end of the day, ordering people or trying to badger them into not having long-term plots and character development in the new expansion they paid for will simply get you laughed at.

 

Of course, there'll always still be the same crowd that never leaves the Quicksand, but that's also to be expected. Both will continue to exist at the same level of plausibility in the same world. Shad is the expansion that permanently yanked the setting and its inhabitants out into high-powered fantasy and lovely moral ambiguity, if the flying cars, regular primal hunts, and planeswalking cyborg horses weren't hints enough. And if roleplayers think their immersion and verisimilitude is being threatened now, just wait til Yoko Taro gets his hands on the history and lore in a few weeks. Maybe we won't get something too far-reaching and fucked up a la Drakengard, but at the very least lots of bunnies start running around in 2B outfits, being all lovely and IC.

I think it'd be fair to mention as well--I had a small discussion with a good friend of mine a few days ago.

 

Basically, there's a few of shades of RPers. Or even RPer camps. They exist in almost all MMO's that allow some form of textual RP.

 

Theres a camp that adheres 100% strictly to lore, no bending, no violations, they try to keep as close to what the game's official lore setting puts out.

 

Then theres a camp (where probably a good chunk of most MMO RPers resonate with) that adheres to lore, but bends it ever so slightly, with knowledge of loopholes in lore (or lack of lore). It still keeps to the lore of the game, but you put your spin on unexplained things where necessary. I think I'd best fit here.

 

There's probably two more camps, probably indistinguishable from one another--they enjoy the lore, but dont keep too close to it with their RP and sort of just go with what they enjoy (which is completely fine!) and lastly, RPers who dont care at all, and just do what they want (which is also perfectly ok!)

 

No camp is better than the other, they just find their fun differently.

 

I think what this thread is meant for, is the people in the first two camps. We aren't trying to necessarily say 'no one can RP here, if they do they are bad' (even though Im almost certain it has happened) . We just have a different style of RP and prefer to try keeping to the lore as close as we can manage while maintaining our enjoyment.

 

RP at the end of the day is what we make of it, and if you are having fun--who cares? But some people just have different views on how close they want to stick to lore.  ^^

 

Apologies if that was off topic, I just felt there might be a misunderstanding on what the discussion might be targeted towards. xP

[Malachar]

13 hours ago, Leezil said:

Been thinking about this more, and after talking to some friends about it who want to RP on the First but not as Natives, I have what I think is a solution that could work for some.

 

Just RP as a totally different person in the first. Easy to make it work. Someone who is RPing as traveling between Source/First might recognize a similarity but that's no different from what's happened in the MSQ. Just allow the two characters to exist as completely separate entities. Whether they share pieces of the same soul is up to you.

 

A step beyond this, and probably preferable imo, is to do this but RP traces of a connection between the two -- similar once again to certain NPCs but with the connection felt by that character. You could RP them as having some emotional/dream crossovers, whatever makes sense to you. I think we've seen evidence that this can happen. In this case, the characters would share pieces of the same soul.

 

I think I've seen people have character concepts along those lines, to me it works as a solution for those who want to RP in the First but don't necessarily need to have traveled.

Honestly, this is probably the best way to go about it without stepping on too many toes, and it's easier to work with than trying to come up with some complex reason to justify why your non-WoL/Scion/Ascian barventurer is suddenly on the First. Also take note that (it seems like) everyone knows everyone in the few scant communities remaining and are wary of strangers who suddenly show up literally from nowhere, not knowing what's going on in the world (which can only mean you're a Sin Eater and need to be stabbed in the face asap). WoL almost got shot through with arrows before the Exarch showed up to vouch for them.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Darshendros the Eternal