Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

[Dameon]

If a man marries a woman in game, and then uses that 30 day potion to change to a female, do they stay married?

[Naunet]

Heck yeah! The more the merrier. Admittedly we're only like five. So anyone else would be welcome along to make the statement larger and more powerful.

 

I'm sure I can pull in more. A few adverts on the RPC and the official forums closer to the time would also get out the representation.

[shotgunbadger]

Let's talk some empathy here, realtalk.

 

You want to 'understand and share' my feelings regarding my sexuality in the media? Rock on, I welcome it.

 

Ever feel like the absolute BEST case for most media is that they just ignore you, because the alternative is some really fucking disgusting stereotypes, so at least if they pretend you don't exist they can't actively insult you further?

 

Ever silently thank god when a character representing your sexuality just acts like a normal human being, because that's such a rare treat?

 

Is one of the reasons you love things like MMOs the fact that no matter what the devs put in, usually, you can just be a gay dude and since you're playing with other real humans instead of programs it doesn't matter the creator's views of gays because you can usually find a supportive environment?

 

How many times has 'we'll wait and see' meant 'we're going to ignore you' for something as basic as just acknowledging that you exist?

 

Do you often hear your sexuality tossed around as a casual insult, because that'd be a terrible thing to be after all, and at the very least in escapism you can just tune all that out?

 

That's why this sucks so much. This is one of the few refuges many of us has, and it's once again invaded by that big neon "YOU ARE NOT NORMAL" sign that follows a lot of us all our life.

 

I'm going to toss a fun comment in here to sort of try to release a little steam from all parties; Normal is so out-dated.

 

That said, that depends, all of this? On the individual. I'm more tolerant than many, I admit that. I'm willing to put more hope into things, I admit that.

 

I simply ask people if they're willing to do the same. If they are not, that's entirely fine.

 

I am also strictly against volatile or otherwise toxic and abrasive... 'solutions'. I feel they offer nothing. This is part of my 'hyper feminist' thing earlier in the thread. This sect of feminists, not the group as a whole heavens no, are unfortunately some of the most vocal, and most toxic of the lot. This is the kind of thing we do -not- need in the LGBT community.

 

Granted, again, I do not like the term feminist or 'masculinist'. I prefer humanist. I want equality in all manner, for all genders. But that's neither here nor there.

 

Wow 'toxic' and 'abrasive'? Really? What solutions are 'toxic', did I miss someone saying they were gonna whiff a brick through Yoshi's car?

 

Like, seriously can you not see how smug and patronizing this post is? Who the hell are you to tell us what we do and don't need, or pass judgement on any feminist who you feel is 'toxic'? 

 

You wanted empathy to be the word of the day but it's clear you don't feel it for me or anyone who disagrees that we should put blind faith in a corporation because they said the most wishy washy answer to our complaints.

[Reppu]

I know me and a group of people will be dying our gear in rainbow colors and staging a small protest in game as well as 2.1 nears. Then tacking it onto an open letter with our arguments.

 

Killing them with fabulous.

 

I know rainbow is symbolic, but so many colors on a single outfit just offends my fashion senses. But, it'd be for a good cause. I can accept that despite my inner fashionista screaming at me for my crimes against fashion.

 

... Unless rainbow is 'in'? Hmmm. Someone get back to me on that.

[Domri Blackblade]

I'm sure I can pull in more. A few adverts on the RPC and the official forums closer to the time would also get out the representation.

 

Definitely. I'm going to wait closer to November to start getting really active with it. Personally, I'm of the mind of if someone doesn't want virtual gay marriage, they shouldn't have one. We will have ours without them. :3

 

I know rainbow is symbolic, but so many colors on a single outfit just offends my fashion senses. But, it'd be for a good cause. I can accept that despite my inner fashionista screaming at me for my crimes against fashion.

 

... Unless rainbow is 'in'? Hmmm. Someone get back to me on that.

 

I grew up in the 90s. Vibrant clashing colors don't register as bad to me. LOL!

[Reppu]

Wow 'toxic' and 'abrasive'? Really? What solutions are 'toxic', did I miss someone saying they were gonna whiff a brick through Yoshi's car?

 

Like, seriously can you not see how smug and patronizing this post is? Who the hell are you to tell us what we do and don't need, or pass judgement on any feminist who you feel is 'toxic'? 

 

You wanted empathy to be the word of the day but it's clear you don't feel it for me or anyone who disagrees that we should put blind faith in a corporation because they said the most wishy washy answer to our complaints.

 

... It's called a blanket statement. It was a broad thing. We DO see this kind of thing every so often, as unfortunate as it is.

 

And, it has been shown here. Also, I'm not going to bother quoting the two prime examples of this, again. Go back a page or two.

 

You're searching really hard for only negatives, and other people have called you out. If this is all you're capable of, then unfortunately our conversation ends here, not just for my sake, but for everyones.

---

If a man marries a woman in game, and then uses that 30 day potion to change to a female, do they stay married?

 

People are looking into this as a funny loophole. It should NOT be required, but it's hilarious.

---

I'm sure I can pull in more. A few adverts on the RPC and the official forums closer to the time would also get out the representation.

 

Definitely. I'm going to wait closer to November to start getting really active with it. Personally, I'm of the mind of if someone doesn't want virtual gay marriage, they shouldn't have one. We will have ours without them. :3

 

I know rainbow is symbolic, but so many colors on a single outfit just offends my fashion senses. But, it'd be for a good cause. I can accept that despite my inner fashionista screaming at me for my crimes against fashion.

 

... Unless rainbow is 'in'? Hmmm. Someone get back to me on that.

 

I grew up in the 90s. Vibrant clashing colors don't register as bad to me. LOL!

 

... I forgot about the 90s. How did I do that. I loved tye-dye.

 

...

 

Welp.

[shotgunbadger]

Who, who is being 'toxic' you spent a good page talking about 'power words' do you not understand how bad it is to call someone 'toxic' to a whole movement. If it's a blanket statement where are you seeing it happen?

[Merri]

Alright. I said once before to be civil and respectful of each other, but that clearly isn't happening here. This thread is going to be locked until further notice.

[Naunet]

Alright. I said once before to be civil and respectful of each other, but that clearly isn't happening here. This thread is going to be locked until further notice.

 

What? But we were talking about things to do... >_>

[Merri]

Per request, this thread has been opened once again. I would ask that everyone please remain civil and refrain from any passive aggressive remarks at this point. Please respect everyone's opinions, even if they differ from your own.

[Naunet]

Thank you.

 

I want to bring attention to Synae's request for input from anyone who wants to contribute to an open letter to Squee that will be translated into Japanese by her fiance and sent to them (as the language it's presented in will make it more likely that they will actually read it). So anyone who has any points they want to make, send Synaesthetic a PM! Even if you just want to sign it.

 

Also, in-game "protests" (perhaps themed gatherings) might help draw attention to the breadth of support this has amongst the ARR populace. It would need to happen well enough prior to the patch that SE could make changes to coding should they need to - and obviously, this would only be needed if they stick to what they've said and make marriage hetero-only. I'm thinking at least two weeks out from whenever 2.1 is released, if not more.

[Amadeus]

Both great ideas that I heartily support.  My FC has been discussing this topic at some length.  A good portion of our members are part of the LGBT community (by coincidence not design), and I can say with certainty that the Knights of the Twelve stands firmly behind marriage equality in Eorzea.

[Spiritual Machine]

A friend indicated to me that the relevant lore on this topic hadn't been brought up. It's a pretty big thread, so if this has already been posted, feel free to smack me on the nose or whatever you people* do.

 

*That is, roleplayers.

 

 

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32685-Questions-related-to-Lore?p=490835&viewfull=1#post490835

 

1. In general, how open-minded is the average Eorzean? (ex. Accept same-sex couples? Those who do not believe in the Twelve?)
   
   Answer: Though many of the races experienced rocky pasts, currently, tolerance is, for the most part, the norm in Eorzea. The main reason behind this being that the region is a veritable melting pot of races who have worked together throughout recent history to survive the hardships thrust upon them. This does not mean that there are do not exist groups which are significantly more closed-minded. For example, while Gridania and Limsa Lominsa are fairly open about having dealings with the some of the more amicable beast tribes (such as the sylphs, goblins, and Qiqirn), the sultanate of Ul'dah are wary of the tribes, in part due to their prolonged conflict with the Amalj'aa.
   

So this seems like a green light or at least a "who cares" when it comes to homosexuality in Eorzea.

 

But I'd like to illuminate the subject further, since at least one person here named Western religion as the primary detractor for gay rights in the real world. Now, not only is that ironically biased, but it's ironically ignorant.

 

Final Fantasy XIV was produced in Japan. As in, 1% reported Christianity as of a 2008 survey.

 

So why are they stiffing gay folks? Because you don't have to be religious at all to not care about gay rights.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan#Homosexuality_in_modern_Japan

 

There's actually a cultural, ah, "shyness" about alternative sexuality in Japan. It's not really frowned on by the government or any particular group. It's just something that hasn't been spoken out about much until recently.

 

And you thought the United States was behind the times on progressive issues.

 

Oh, but it gets better. A gander over here, and...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Japan

 

Same-sex marriage is not legal in Japan. Again, mostly because not many people seem to be campaigning for it--not so much because people are directly opposed to it. I mean, maybe they are. I'm not well-studied on the subject, but...

 

Might be that Square Enix didn't add the option because most of their local customers didn't really want or care about the option, and not because they're homophobes.

 

So, I think it's best to at least check Wikipedia before you presume to understand the perspective and mindset behind a decision that offends you. After all, not every country is America.

[Naunet]

A friend indicated to me that the relevant lore on this topic hadn't been brought up. It's a pretty big thread, so if this has already been posted, feel free to smack me on the nose or whatever you people* do.

 

Thanks. I knew I'd seen that quote somewhere, but I couldn't remember well enough to go find it.

[synaesthetic]

I'm getting sick of telling people this, their intent doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if they refuse to implement gay marriage because they don't care about it, or because they actually hate gay people.

 

The end result--gay couples being excluded from a part of the game simply because they are gay--is still discrimination. Their intent does not matter at all.

[Spiritual Machine]

I'm getting sick of telling people this, their intent doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if they refuse to implement gay marriage because they don't care about it, or because they actually hate gay people.

 

The end result--gay couples being excluded from a part of the game simply because they are gay--is still discrimination. Their intent does not matter at all.

Yeah, it does.

 

It matters in how you approach them. Because it's possible that they don't understand the thing that you are concerned about in the same way that you do.

 

Again, Japan isn't America, and in general you just can't expect someone to care about your opinions just because you get loud and obnoxious about them.

 

Understanding your target audience creates the foundation of a bridge by which you may lead them to understand your own perspective. That's how you change things.

 

No one is simply entitled to the consideration of another.

[Naunet]

It matters in how you approach them. Because it's possible that they don't understand the thing that you are concerned about in the same way that you do.

 

Pretty sure Synaesthetic's words were largely a reaction to the idea that the intent or lack of intent can somehow make something not discrimination. Which, I think it's pretty clear that intent doesn't matter when it comes to identifying what is discrimination and what isn't.

[Spiritual Machine]

It matters in how you approach them. Because it's possible that they don't understand the thing that you are concerned about in the same way that you do.

 

Pretty sure Synaesthetic's words were largely a reaction to the idea that the intent or lack of intent can somehow make something not discrimination. Which, I think it's pretty clear that intent doesn't matter when it comes to identifying what is discrimination and what isn't.

Pretty sure I never even used the word "discrimination" in my post. So I don't know what they're reacting to, really.

 

Whatever it is though, they're apparently getting sick of reacting to it!

[Colyer]

I'm getting sick of telling people this, their intent doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if they refuse to implement gay marriage because they don't care about it, or because they actually hate gay people.

 

The end result--gay couples being excluded from a part of the game simply because they are gay--is still discrimination. Their intent does not matter at all.

 

I am hesitant to say this since things are seeming to calm down but this statement does hit home for me, in a way.

 

Those are not the only two reasons for a company to make such a decision. A rational company will not use personal reasoning to make a decision. Companies such as the size of Square Enix employs probably entire floors of analyst for well, analyze the impacts both positive and negative of changing a product in any sort of manner. 

 

It is completely possible for for Square Enix to get the final report that says that the most likely negative impact out weights the most likely positive. And in that case the decision to not make the change could be made without any personal feelings of malice or disrespect.

 

NOTE: I am not saying you can't disagree with the decision, I am not saying you can not voice you opinion or that the outcome isn't discriminatory.

 

All I am saying is that without proof, you can not make a statement that they did not include gay marriage solely due to not caring or hate as fact. Since it is entirely possible for such an outcome to come about, without any emotional interference by the decision makers.

[synaesthetic]

Oh I know damn well why they chose to leave it out when the system launches. Because their analysts told them that they had a non-zero chance to lose money if they included it. I'm not an idiot, you know; I do know how business works, and the reason they plan to do this is entirely due to profit concerns.

 

I just think it's bullshit. I just think that if they're that concerned about not damaging the delicate sensibilities of bigots, then they should pay the price for being douchebags, even if the source of their douchery is avarice rather than homophobia.

[Reppu]

Seeing as the uncalled for name-calling and insults are not subsiding from synaesthetic, as much as I may support the idea? I cannot support the individual putting it forward. There is too much of a likelihood for my name to be behind something that will be too far beyond my given limits.

 

I wish the effort lucks, however. But it seems nothing has changed.

 

The only outcome I see with attitudes like this, unfortunately?

 

[Gone4everbye]

Is interracial marriage allowed?

[Spiritual Machine]

Oh I know damn well why they chose to leave it out when the system launches. Because their analysts told them that they had a non-zero chance to lose money if they included it. I'm not an idiot, you know; I do know how business works, and the reason they plan to do this is entirely due to profit concerns.

 

I just think it's bullshit. I just think that if they're that concerned about not damaging the delicate sensibilities of bigots, then they should pay the price for being douchebags, even if the source of their douchery is avarice rather than homophobia.

Oh, you are just a treat.

 

Keep on fighting presumptions with presumptions. I'll just take my sensible candor elsewhere.

[shotgunbadger]

Is interracial marriage allowed?

 

Of course, if they discriminated against magic cat people  it'd be terrible.

[Naunet]

Seeing as the uncalled for name-calling and insults are not subsiding from synaesthetic, as much as I may support the idea? I cannot support the individual putting it forward. There is too much of a likelihood for my name to be behind something that will be too far beyond my given limits.

 

That's exceedingly silly. Synae hasn't called anyone here names. What's more, why did you even need to make this post - just to call Synae out because you feel she's being overly aggressive on an internet forum about a topic she's passionate about? She's perfectly capable of wording very strong, coherent arguments, which she's done repeatedly in this thread.