Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

[Disglair]

I agree wholeheartedly that discussion has a time and place (and is even necessary!) but I can totally see how this is so upsetting to so many people. I'm super glad that the world is thinking of stepping forward on this topic but it's still horribly frustrating to see it dragging along.

 

And even if those threads get locked, it doesn't mean they don't contribute to their cause. Being locked does mean that they're being noticed. Even if only in passing.

[Havoc Snow]

And even if those threads get locked, it doesn't mean they don't contribute to their cause. Being locked does mean that they're being noticed. Even if only in passing.

Having your thread locked is actually counterproductive to whatever cause you're trying to further because it means that whatever point you were trying to make got lost in pages of flames, trolls, and hate. They don't often lock threads, most of the time threads just disappear into the archives beyond Page 1 and 2 on the forums (because let's be honest, no one ever goes back further than Page 2 at most when searching a forum, especially the beta forums). So if your thread garnered enough attention to get locked, it's because it was reported too many times and a mod needed to step in and shut things down, and most likely no one read your post before that happened, or after.

 

Any feedback on the marriage system before it's actually in the game will at most only merit some vague as hell response from a dev that ends in something like "please be patient."

[Disglair]

I agree and disagree! Individual posts within locked threads may become lost in the heebie jeebies of things, but they still count towards the total "Threads About X Issue". They may not be as productive as civil discussion, but I'm definitely not going to invalidate them since it's such a touchy subject to everyone and every little bit helps!

 

I think we all agree that we want to see same sex marriages in the game, which is great. I just also think that people who get upset and angry have a right to! We all get frustrated and annoyed and offended at times. Normally, I'm more of the mind of "If you ain't got nothin' nice to say, don't say it at all!" but when it comes to things like this? I think people are justified in getting their knickers all twisted sometimes.

[shotgunbadger]

You know, the more I think about it the more it does actually bug me. I guess it's more a frustration of 'this is yet another time where I feel like some kind of outsider even in a game about magic elves and dragons and shit'. What really chaps my ass is that this is a pretty easy thing to 'fix' too. This isn't a country that has to change its laws and update its codes and all, this is just an issue of programming. The assets and such are coming either way, just set the system to be open to two players regardless of gender and it's done.

 

No it's not a thing that'll make me quit, or anything like that, but it bothers me, especially the vague 'well we'll see if we get any feedback' answer we got. That's a non-answer at best, and a dodge at worst because it shifts the 'blame' over to us, like we need to campaign for marriage equality in elf games just like we do in real life.

 

Screw that noise, this is a game about midgets summoning avatars of gods and cat people punching monsters in the mouth but apparently two dudes getting married needs to be focus grouped and carefully planned? It pisses me off to get brushed off with a 'well we'll see about you maybe' almost more than just outright saying no at this point.

[Dameon]

The quote in question.

 

As for same-sex marriage, this is an extremely controversial topic that has been under discussion in the MMO world for the past few years. First we would like to start out with opposite-sex marriage, and then consider the feedback from our players in order to make a careful decision. I can't say whether or not it will be possible at this point in time. I'd like to keep dialog open with our players as we deliberate the matter.

[Miss Marigold]

Any feedback on the marriage system before it's actually in the game will at most only merit some vague as hell response from a dev that ends in something like "please be patient."

 

I think your assumption that Square-Enix will not change its plans no matter what people do is unfounded. if it's made clear that the backlash from releasing the system without same-sex marriage will be immense, I could definitely see them backpedaling. I could even see a partial solution where same-sex marriage is only available on NA and EU servers being implemented if their respective player-bases are particularly vocal.

[shotgunbadger]

Any feedback on the marriage system before it's actually in the game will at most only merit some vague as hell response from a dev that ends in something like "please be patient."

 

I think your assumption that Square-Enix will not change its plans no matter what people do is unfounded. if it's made clear that the backlash from releasing the system without same-sex marriage will be immense, I could definitely see them backpedaling. I could even see a partial solution where same-sex marriage is only available on NA and EU servers being implemented if their respective player-bases are particularly vocal.

 

 

Frankly I don't see anything in their statement that gives me hope beyond a very generic 'eh let's see some feedback'. They clearly are going with hetero marriage as the norm and think if us gays want anything we have to prove we exist or whatever. They obviously expect us to protest or something to get anything but honestly most of the gays I know in this situation have way too many issues with actual real life problems to put tons of effort into a magic elf game's discrimination, so most likely Squeenix will have plenty of room to go 'eh not enough feedback'.

[Havoc Snow]

Any feedback on the marriage system before it's actually in the game will at most only merit some vague as hell response from a dev that ends in something like "please be patient."

 

I think your assumption that Square-Enix will not change its plans no matter what people do is unfounded. if it's made clear that the backlash from releasing the system without same-sex marriage will be immense, I could definitely see them backpedaling. I could even see a partial solution where same-sex marriage is only available on NA and EU servers being implemented if their respective player-bases are particularly vocal.

I think you just have an overly optimistic point of view, SE has proven without a shadow of a doubt that they will not change their plans no matter what people do. I can promise you there is more rage and outcry over the combat system then there ever will be over same sex marriage in the game and they haven't budged even a centimeter on that. Their response to adding /tell to dungeons was "it's already there but we don't trust you not to be assholes." Their response to job specific Limit Breaks or less generic Limit Breaks was pretty much 

 

 

Pretty much every major concern that has been brought up on the beta forums, whether in general discussion or in the feedback forums has only ever been responded to with something stating that it was already planned, or was working as intended, or the occasional Nope.jpg from Hvirine.

[Disglair]

That is really disheartening to hear, Ashren.

 

If this were any lesser issue, I would say we should just..lol. Deal with it.

 

But this is a bit more than that. I hope people do continue to pester them on this subject. I know I'll support any efforts to see same sex marriages implemented!

[Miss Marigold]

They obviously expect us to protest or something to get anything but honestly most of the gays I know in this situation have way too many issues with actual real life problems to put tons of effort into a magic elf game's discrimination, so most likely Squeenix will have plenty of room to go 'eh not enough feedback'.

 

There's no reason to think that only non-heterosexuals will bother complaining. The majority of Americans support same-sex marriage. Amongst those under thirty, 65% support it. There will be plenty of angry people regardless of sexual orientation if this system is implemented as planned.

 

I also think you're being overly cynical. The people who are responsible for making this decision are real human beings like you and I are. If they see thousands of people upset over this issue, it may weigh on them heavily enough that they make the right decision.

[Havoc Snow]

and just to be clear, I was born and raised in San Francisco, I grew up with friends who had two moms or two dads and was taught to be tolerant from a young age. I have friends that are gay, lesbian, and my former boss was trans, so I'm in no way against same sex anything, in real life or in a video game. I just personally don't see this particular issue as being one worth getting on a soap box for. If you feel strongly about it then by all means, fight for it, but when you do make sure to keep some perspective and understand that this is a multi-national release and we're basically just playing an import of a Japanese game, so ultimately we have to accept what is considered socially acceptable for the Japanese more than anything. It's not fair, but as we should all know by now life is not fair more often than not. I'm only debating this topic to ensure people have perspective and accurate expectations, not because I'm at all against it.

 

Also I'm not sure where you're getting 65%, as of July the total was 55% which was an 11% increase in support for same sex marriage since Obama was elected into office. I highly doubt it jumped another 10% in just a month if it took over a decade to increase by 11%.

[Disglair]

Oh, I think everyone here is in the same boat as far as agreeing that it should be allowed. And hey, not everyone has to fight these small fights. I personally don't have the time or money to actively fight the big fights in real life (I have my own problems), so these smaller ones are kind of my way of showing my support.

 

I don't really feel the need to show that much respect for a discriminatory tradition. At least not the level of respect required to be okay with it in any sense (even on a video game level). Just because the culture we're discussing is on the other side of the planet doesn't mean it doesn't affect people over there. :]

[shotgunbadger]

If we're 'respecting Japanese norms' I expect everyone with a female toon will stick to crafting jobs (preferably just cooking) or I GUESS magic as long as it's not too intense and manly too?

[Miss Marigold]

SE has proven without a shadow of a doubt that they will not change their plans no matter what people do. I can promise you there is more rage and outcry over the combat system then there ever will be over same sex marriage in the game and they haven't budged even a centimeter on that.

 

Comparing this issue to outcries about the combat system is bogus for several reasons:

 

• It's been way, way too late for them to make any major changes to the combat system for a long time now. Implementing the sort of action-based combat systems some people want is impossible without delaying the game for another year or two. In contrast, allowing same-sex marriage probably doesn't take much more than flipping a switch.
  
• The majority of players like the current combat system. The people you're seeing complain are a vocal minority. In contrast, it's clear that the majority of the US player-base supports same-sex marriage. The same goes for much of the EU.
  
• People who don't like the combat in FFXIV won't buy it. In contrast, there will be tons of people actively playing the game when they learn marriage will not be allowed for same-sex couples. As such, you'll have people upset about a very sensitive topic in a game they're already invested in. People are guaranteed to threaten to terminate their subscriptions. A lot of people really, really care about this stuff. Trust me.
  

 

Pretty much every major concern that has been brought up on the beta forums, whether in general discussion or in the feedback forums has only ever been responded to with something stating that it was already planned, or was working as intended, or the occasional Nope.jpg from Hvirine.

 

That's because "major concerns" are usually about things that are hard to change. Compared to how these things usually go, I actually think Square-Enix has been excellent in soliciting and responding to user feedback.

[Havoc Snow]

If we're 'respecting Japanese norms' I expect everyone with a female toon will stick to crafting jobs (preferably just cooking) or I GUESS magic as long as it's not too intense and manly too?

I'm all for this idea! :evil:

[shotgunbadger]

Don't worry dude you don't have to keep arguing the opposite to 'keep our perspective' us gays know our place. This is far from the first time I've played a game where I can summon the gods themselves to fight for me but kissing a dude, yuck, that's crazy.

[Domri Blackblade]

So, what if you hetero marry then do a sex change.?

 

By George if I want to marry another female, I will certainly find a loophole!

[Miss Marigold]

I just personally don't see this particular issue as being one worth getting on a soap box for. … I'm only debating this topic to ensure people have perspective and accurate expectations' date=' not because I'm at all against it.[/quote']

 

You do realize how patronizing that sounds, right? Forgive me, but your assistance in shaping people's perspectives and expectations isn't needed. I'm well-aware this is an uphill battle and I'm perfectly capable of assigning it the appropriate level of importance in my life.

 

Also I'm not sure where you're getting 65%, as of July the total was 55% which was an 11% increase in support for same sex marriage since Obama was elected into office. I highly doubt it jumped another 10% in just a month if it took over a decade to increase by 11%.

 

Source.

[Havoc Snow]

Don't worry dude you don't have to keep arguing the opposite to 'keep our perspective' us gays know our place. This is far from the first time I've played a game where I can summon the gods themselves to fight for me but kissing a dude, yuck, that's crazy.

I'm sure that many people who have posted in this thread, or who are a part of this community, are more than capable of keeping their shit together, so to speak, but some people seem to think that just because a handful of people make some noise that it will create any sort of lasting impact.

 

When the marriage system launches with hetero marriage only it'll create waves no matter what, but if people expect it (or even accept it, no matter how bad it is) that impact will cause less rage and more rational thought when the time for feedback is actually at hand.

 

If the system launches and the collective LGBT community of FFXIV all rationally band together as best they can to create a singular front then you'll get something done, but if everyone expects things will change just because they want them to or because it makes them angry, then they have these unmerited expectations and a skewed perspective and when the system launches and it's not what they expected, and everyone goes ERMERGERD DEY TERK ER JERBS! and ten thousand threads appear on the lodestone about the same. damn. thing. SE is far less likely to give a rats ass.

 

@Yini, you're basing your numbers off a single demographic, not the entirety of the US.

 

2013 Polls

A July 10-14 poll by Gallup found support for gay marriage at 54%, a record high, and double the support of 27% Gallup first measured when the question was asked in 1996.

 

A July poll by USA Today found that 55% of Americans supported gay marriage while 40% did not.

 

A May 9 Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 55% of Americans supported gay marriage while 40% did not.

 

A March 20–24 CBS News Poll found that 53% of Americans supported same-sex marriage, 39% opposed it, and 8% were undecided. The same poll also found that 33% of Americans who thought same-sex couples should be allowed to legally marry said they once held the opposite view and had changed their opinion.

 

A March 7–10 Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 58% of Americans support same-sex marriage while 36% opposed. The poll indicated that 52% of GOP-leaning independents under 50 years old supported gay marriage.

 

A March Quinnipiac University poll of voters found 47% supported same-sex marriage and 43% were opposed.

[shotgunbadger]

So, what if you hetero marry then do a sex change.?

 

By George if I want to marry another female, I will certainly find a loophole!

 

Hey woah please respect Japan's culture and understand that transgendered people aren't exactly respected there, so any gender change options should be ignored.

---

Don't worry dude you don't have to keep arguing the opposite to 'keep our perspective' us gays know our place. This is far from the first time I've played a game where I can summon the gods themselves to fight for me but kissing a dude, yuck, that's crazy.

I'm sure that many people who have posted in this thread, or who are a part of this community, are more than capable of keeping their shit together, so to speak, but some people seem to think that just because a handful of people make some noise that it will create any sort of lasting impact.

 

When the marriage system launches with hetero marriage only it'll create waves no matter what, but if people expect it (or even accept it, no matter how bad it is) that impact will cause less rage and more rational thought when the time for feedback is actually at hand.

 

If the system launches and the collective LGBT community of FFXIV all rationally band together as best they can to create a singular front then you'll get something done, but if everyone expects things will change just because they want them to or because it makes them angry, then they have these unmerited expectations and a skewed perspective and when the system launches and it's not what they expected, and everyone goes ERMERGERD DEY TERK ER JERBS! and ten thousand threads appear on the lodestone about the same. damn. thing. SE is far less likely to give a rats ass.

 

You know what this actually pisses me off more than SE's bull crap.

 

Thank you sooooooooo much for telling me how to react to this, I absolutely couldn't handle my swirling homo emotions without you here to keep me in perspective. As we all know if a gay ever vents for just five damn minutes about how it sucks that even in fantasy escapism we can't even be equal we're basically stabbing the movement in the back.

 

Please, please give us permission to have one damn place to go 'man this sucks' without some dude coming in and smugly explaining how if we were more rational everything would be ok.

[Miss Marigold]

@Yini, you're basing your numbers off a single demographic, not the entirety of the US.

 

Yes, I know. That's why i said exactly that in the post you're complaining about:

 

The majority of Americans support same-sex marriage. Amongst those under thirty, 65% support it.

[Havoc Snow]

So, what if you hetero marry then do a sex change.?

 

By George if I want to marry another female, I will certainly find a loophole!

 

Hey woah please respect Japan's culture and understand that transgendered people aren't exactly respected there, so any gender change options should be ignored.

---

Don't worry dude you don't have to keep arguing the opposite to 'keep our perspective' us gays know our place. This is far from the first time I've played a game where I can summon the gods themselves to fight for me but kissing a dude, yuck, that's crazy.

I'm sure that many people who have posted in this thread, or who are a part of this community, are more than capable of keeping their shit together, so to speak, but some people seem to think that just because a handful of people make some noise that it will create any sort of lasting impact.

 

When the marriage system launches with hetero marriage only it'll create waves no matter what, but if people expect it (or even accept it, no matter how bad it is) that impact will cause less rage and more rational thought when the time for feedback is actually at hand.

 

If the system launches and the collective LGBT community of FFXIV all rationally band together as best they can to create a singular front then you'll get something done, but if everyone expects things will change just because they want them to or because it makes them angry, then they have these unmerited expectations and a skewed perspective and when the system launches and it's not what they expected, and everyone goes ERMERGERD DEY TERK ER JERBS! and ten thousand threads appear on the lodestone about the same. damn. thing. SE is far less likely to give a rats ass.

 

You know what this actually pisses me off more than SE's bull crap.

 

Thank you sooooooooo much for telling me how to react to this, I absolutely couldn't handle my swirling homo emotions without you here to keep me in perspective. As we all know if a gay ever vents for just five damn minutes about how it sucks that even in fantasy escapism we can't even be equal we're basically stabbing the movement in the back.

 

Please, please give us permission to have one damn place to go 'man this sucks' without some dude coming in and smugly explaining how if we were more rational everything would be ok.

Before you get on your high horse you should go take a gander at the beta forums and how there are already about 10 threads (not even over exaggerating) on this very subject and how much those threads are accomplishing. It's pretty much just people saying "rawr this sucks" and then 10+ pages of image macros.

 

All I'm saying is if you actually, you know, want to accomplish anything it's better to come at this in a unified manner where you'll get the most localized support, though clearly from the responses I've seen from many of the people in this thread, even towards people who share in this disdain of the situation, many of you would rather just rage about it than actually make a difference.

[shotgunbadger]

And all I'M saying is I'm sick to hell of any LGBT topic ever going:

 

Most all LGBT people involved just go 'man this sucks' => One or two people takes things a bit further => Straight people come in all "WOAH HOMOS CALM THE HELL DOWN LET'S BE RATIONAL HERE DON'T YOU KNOW NO ONE GIVES A CRAP UNLESS YOU BEHAVE?"

[Havoc Snow]

And all I'M saying is I'm sick to hell of any LGBT topic ever going:

 

Most all LGBT people involved just go 'man this sucks' => One or two people takes things a bit further => Straight people come in all "WOAH HOMOS CALM THE HELL DOWN LET'S BE RATIONAL HERE DON'T YOU KNOW NO ONE GIVES A CRAP UNLESS YOU BEHAVE?"

I'm pretty sure that's not what I said, but who am I to tell you how to perceive my point? I'll just quote myself and be done with this thread.

 

clearly from the responses I've seen from many of the people in this thread' date=' even towards people who share in this disdain of the situation, many of you would rather just rage about it than actually make a difference.[/quote']

[Domri Blackblade]

And all I'M saying is I'm sick to hell of any LGBT topic ever going:

 

Most all LGBT people involved just go 'man this sucks' => One or two people takes things a bit further => Straight people come in all "WOAH HOMOS CALM THE HELL DOWN LET'S BE RATIONAL HERE DON'T YOU KNOW NO ONE GIVES A CRAP UNLESS YOU BEHAVE?"

 

I am not straight and I advocate rationality. It's like when you have to deal with your in-laws. Kill them with calmness and kindness and you have a chance to get them to hate you less. If you scream and shout and sling curses at them, you come out validating their poor view of you.

 

I think if we showed them how this could only better the community and were vigilant abut sending the message, making a large voice, we could get through. This screaming ,shouting, and insulting each other isn't going anywhere.