Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

[rynshun]

Anyone who wants to see this implemented, and i could be wrong, but I think they would likely be willing to wait and support it when Square brings the topic up.

 

I'll be honest, I have seen it being mentioned in other sites, including non-gaming ones, which make a bit of a deal over it. (the one I remember was this article).

 

The impression I got (before I read this post) is that Square is doing it so it doesn't cause upset to a majority of it's fanbase and also not to cause an attacks or trolling towards any gay characters in the game. Where as people don't go rushing into a MMO screaming "I'M GAY I'M GAY!" I would imagine that a small few may advertise a marriage like I have seen hetrosexual couples do like in comment boxes or with matching rings inscribed with a name or something. I got the impression (which I may be wrong) that the careful decision was how to impliment it in a way that is fair without causing some backlash or uproar in a negaive way towards other players, wither gay or straight.

 

Personally, when I played FFXI I never once considered a gay marriage option for my character. I also personally don't beleive in gay marriage (don't hate me ><) but I appreciate each to their own values and beliefs. But if I found a reason to do it, wither as a standard or roleplay character, I would rather wait for the said decision and time to support it, even if it takes a while.

 

EDIT: In light of a recent comment by another user about my feeling on gay marriage, I would like to make it clear I am not trying to offend anyone, plus my opinion is my opinion. I would not judge anyone who felt differently and expect the same from them. I am a gay man myself and have my own beliefs but would happily support anyone wanting to be in a same sex marriage.

[Dameon]

Same sex marriage is less progressive in Japan than the United States, so probably not.  They actually have a law that is worded that marriage is between a man and a woman, though they will acknowledge a same-sex marriage if it occurs with a foreigner in a foreign country.

Also, to the point of pro-japanese same sex fandoms, isn't the whole yuri/yaoi subculture like...super huge there? They're just embarrassed to talk about it?

[ArmachiA]

Not as big as you would think, but to Japanese people anime and manga are escape's, fantasies, and should never be used to say anything about Japanese culture as a whole.

[Felix Sideris]

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

 

Treating it as completely normal is also an opinion. Some people view it as the complete opposite. Going ahead implementing it with no restrictions completely disregards the opinions of those who are against it. Which is why they have taken the neutral role of putting that discussion on hold and implementing opposite-sex marriage until they can get time to consult the player base to know what they want, as a whole.

 

You are forgetting the fact that large swaths of the playerbase not only support homosexuality, but are homosexuals who are married to their partners. It is untrue to say that the US is the only country that sees this as normal; many countries are far ahead of the US in respecting homosexual rights and see us as backwards. To those countries, Japan is downright primitive.

 

Treating it as abnormal is an opinion and many people see that opinion as aberrant and divisive. Going ahead and implementing it with restrictions completely disregards the opinions, lifestyles and in many cases the actual irl status of those who are in favor of homosexual marriage. Which is why "putting off" that decision is in NO WAY neutral. If they do not implement same-sex marriage they are actively disallowing it. They are actively stating that the beliefs and lifestyles of many of their players are strange, unusual, and will not be accepted until divisive elements in the playerbase agree to it.

 

Given the tone of a lot of their commentary, this seems to go completely against Yoshi's paradigm. They're afraid of the vote-kick function being used to troll. Their afraid of whispers in raids being used to say cruel things. They're afraid of people rolling need on things they don't need because it is rude. And then they turn around and actively speak down to a large element of their customers, as if there's something strange and unwanted about them.

I think that is a little bit of an extreme way to say it.

 

And I'll admit that the thing about the US was a bit of an uneducated exaggeration on my part.

 

And I am not forgetting that some people are homosexual's married to their partners at all, actually. I have a friend that is(not married though) and will likely be playing ARR soon after release. 

 

However, I think it is more important to release their game and get it stabilized and some income flowing in before they can direct full and proper attention to it.

 

It isn't like they are sitting there drinking beers, feet up on their desk talking about the weather. They are preparing a release of an MMO that pretty much crashed and burned because the last development team didn't listen to the player base telling them not to release the game because it wasn't ready.

 

Do I think they will give the full attention this subject deserves and implement it in the near future, likely by 2.1? Absolutely.

 

I wouldn't go as far to say that they are disregarding the opinions and life styles of their players by taking this course of action on a Video Game. 

 

 

I don't think anyone has to worry, though, honestly. There is pretty much a 99% chance this will get implemented in 2.1. Too many people support it for them to push it off any longer than that.

[Miss Marigold]

I also personally don't beleive in gay marriage (don't hate me ><) but I appreciate each to their own values.

 

"I also personally don't believe in interracial marriage (don't hate me ><) but I appreciate each to their own values."

 

I just hope you're aware that's exactly what you sound like.

 

Edit: Someone contacted me to ask what this post means. Just to be very clear, my point was that adding "don't hate me" to an offensive comment doesn't make it any less offensive—or make people dislike you any less, for that matter.

[Clover]

I have my own thoughts on the topic, but I don't think this is an appropriate place to discuss them personally, and I think everyone has the right to decide how they want to live their own life, too, so yeah.

 

That set aside.

 

Japan is VERY different from the united states.

 

There is an amazing quote from the movie Emperor(2012) that explains this better than I could, but I couldn't find the exact quote, so this is from memory;

 

In Japanese culture, on the surface they act like westerners, they are progressive, they blend in. However, it is a lie, a front. Underneath lies over 2000 years of tradition, beliefs and culture which is deeply rooted into the people and always will be.

 

That said, Japan is known for being isolationism, and despite the appearance of being as progressive and forward moving as the rest of the world, they are DEEPLY rooted in where they came from.

 

A large part of Yoshi P being cautious about this is likely because of that very thing. So while some might not agree with his decision, it is the most neutral route to take. Especially since it is not openly accepted in Japan, and it is a Japanese game(pretty much).

 

However, I can see them adding it in sometime in the near future as lore supports it and a large amount of the player base either doesn't care, or supports it as well. 

 

So, I'd say don't worry or stress over it and hang tight

Ah, yes. I agree with you, Japan can be VERY closed minded, which is a part of the reason why many rebellious forms of fashion (like lolita fashion) have been born there. Many young people are sick of everything and want to break the traditional rules.

 

In any case, considering that FFXIV already has gender equality in the armours, I guess it's just a matter of time ^^

 

(*Nods* Everyone has their own opinion regarding the matter; I do, too! I personally dislike any form of marriage, het included *laughs*. As you said, everyone has the right to decide. People just need to learn not to lose sleep over what other people do, so long as everyone is happy doing their thing).

[ArmachiA]

^ Even then, Japanese people expect "rebellious fashionistas" to grow out of it.

 

And the sad part is most of them do.

[Reppu]

At the end of the day, this is my personal opinion; It's unfortunate, but I understand that society, humanity as a whole, is at least slowly progressing toward this change.

 

Although I think too many people, both 'straight' and 'homosexual', put way, way, way too much value on the word 'marriage', and specifically marriage. While I am aware of the real-world benefits of this word and the status that comes with it, that is there.

 

So, unless FFXIV brings about some kind of marriage bonuses, I am under the firm opinion that I can respect the cautiousness of the FFXIV team, the traditionalism of the Japanese culture, and view it as not a disrespect to homosexuals.

 

If there is some kind of mechanical bonus for it, then sure. Protest as much as you want! But I say wait, for now. Wait and see if they do not allow same-sex marriages further down the line once they have the stability they need for this title.

 

And at the end of the day, if you need a video game to stabilize your real-life homosexual relationship, this is a missed priority, folks. Don't get out the picket lines yet. Give it time, use very light amounts of pressure. Don't let the issue die, but don't attack for it.

 

Respect the decision. It's the only way the issue here will get respect.

[Felix Sideris]

At the end of the day, this is my personal opinion; It's unfortunate, but I understand that society, humanity as a whole, is at least slowly progressing toward this change.

 

Although I think too many people, both 'straight' and 'homosexual', put way, way, way too much value on the word 'marriage', and specifically marriage. While I am aware of the real-world benefits of this word and the status that comes with it, that is there.

 

So, unless FFXIV brings about some kind of marriage bonuses, I am under the firm opinion that I can respect the cautiousness of the FFXIV team, the traditionalism of the Japanese culture, and view it as not a disrespect to homosexuals.

 

If there is some kind of mechanical bonus for it, then sure. Protest as much as you want! But I say wait, for now. Wait and see if they do not allow same-sex marriages further down the line once they have the stability they need for this title.

 

And at the end of the day, if you need a video game to stabilize your real-life homosexual relationship, this is a missed priority, folks. Don't get out the picket lines yet. Give it time, use very light amounts of pressure. Don't let the issue die, but don't attack for it.

 

Respect the decision. It's the only way the issue here will get respect.

Exactly. This is always a very sensitive topic for many people who are both for and against it, and I can understand why.

 

All I am trying to do is reassure everyone that it is no sweat. They did this decision because it is the best one they could make given the cards that they have been dealt.

 

As I said before, hang tight. You guys will get what you want.

[Dameon]

Not as big as you would think, but to Japanese people anime and manga are escape's, fantasies, and should never be used to say anything about Japanese culture as a whole.

 

Some might say they're.....

 

Final fantasies?

[Felix Sideris]

Not as big as you would think, but to Japanese people anime and manga are escape's, fantasies, and should never be used to say anything about Japanese culture as a whole.

 

Some might say they're.....

 

Final fantasies?

 

 

You just made my day. We should start a thread. One person says a sentence and the next person comes up with the corniest joke they possibly can off of one of the words from the sentence above. And just continue on.

[Demon Fox]

I didn't even know there was going to be a marriage system in this game....Shows what very little research i actually did about the game mechanics. this is awesome new news to me.

[S'demyx Tia]

guess I'm not getting married... 哎吔

 

Lets have a marriage of convenience, then have our own not-so-secret lovers. The forbidden love angle will be super-dramatic!

 

That actually sounds rather promising, especially in an RP pov. Let the drama commence.

[Felix Sideris]

Although I do want to apologize if I offended anyone in the community by defending the FFXIV team/Yoshi P for their decision on this.

 

I certainly did not mean to offend anyone, and I am keeping my personal views on this to myself as I strongly believe in people's natural right to live life they way they want. We all have choice.

 

I only wanted to assure you guys that you don't have to worry. The new FFXIV team is good about listening to the community and I highly, highly doubt they will simply brush this under the rug, so to speak. Especially if there is going to be in-game bonus' for marriage.

 

But yeah, there is a good chance to see this coming in. So don't worry!

 

My apologies none the less. -Bows-

[Colyer]

At the end of the day, this is my personal opinion; It's unfortunate, but I understand that society, humanity as a whole, is at least slowly progressing toward this change.

 

Although I think too many people, both 'straight' and 'homosexual', put way, way, way too much value on the word 'marriage', and specifically marriage. While I am aware of the real-world benefits of this word and the status that comes with it, that is there.

 

So, unless FFXIV brings about some kind of marriage bonuses, I am under the firm opinion that I can respect the cautiousness of the FFXIV team, the traditionalism of the Japanese culture, and view it as not a disrespect to homosexuals.

 

If there is some kind of mechanical bonus for it, then sure. Protest as much as you want! But I say wait, for now. Wait and see if they do not allow same-sex marriages further down the line once they have the stability they need for this title.

 

And at the end of the day, if you need a video game to stabilize your real-life homosexual relationship, this is a missed priority, folks. Don't get out the picket lines yet. Give it time, use very light amounts of pressure. Don't let the issue die, but don't attack for it.

 

Respect the decision. It's the only way the issue here will get respect.

 

I agree. While personally it would of been nice to be able to do so, in the end it is a video game. I just don't find it big of a deal. Of course this is me personally.

 

As for the game itself and the disconnect between that was said to be lore and what we are getting. Sometimes game-play does not equal lore, whether due to engine limitations or the devs and players think something non-cannon is just fun and it put in. 

 

I see no reason why we can't take Yoshi-P's word as "Word of God this is Lore" and the limitation a game play issue that the devs decided to enact due to real life.

[LandStander]

 

You need to remember that the United States is FAR ahead of other countries in terms of accepting homosexuality. Japanese society, as far as what I can tell off of other threads/sites that have talked about this topic, does not accept it as openly. This game is world-wide and thus they need to take into account the customs and socially accepted ways of each country their game goes into. Let's say for example(this is hypothetical) Germany was extremely against homosexuality. If they released that on the game, it -could- offend a large part part of the German player base. 

 

The chance of offending people is relatively low, but square enix seems to be concerned with -all- of their players, not just the majority. At this point in time they have far more important things to handle than dealing with such a controversial topic, and so the safest thing to do is exactly what they will be doing. 

 

It is better to not release it initially and then add it in upon majority player-base request than to add it in and offend some of your players.

 

I applaud them for their caution about it, because it -is- sensitive to some people, and while I won't argue in either direction for it, I think their decision is appropriate considering the struggles that FFXIV has gone through and the effort they have put into reviving this game into something as amazing as it now is.

 

Also, a large majority of the player base that wants it added, or would argue against it, would likely be Role Players, which is usually the smallest community in an MMO in comparison to PvE and PvP players.

 

So, with all that said, I'd say lets sit back and enjoy the game and not get wrapped up in such a controversial topic about a small addition they added into the game. Eventually it will, or will not, be changed based upon the responses they get from the community. They have pretty much promised that.

 

I think you are giving America too much credit. They are not far ahead as you have stated, but are somewhere in the middle. South Africa, New Zealand, Iceland, Canada, Denmark, Brazil, Argentina, and a lot of others have already passed laws allowing it. 

 

I am going with Naunet on this one. If they just add it and don't make a big fuss about it then no one will care, just like they did with Rift. I didn't expect that they would allow it and I honestly do not think they will ever allow if.

 

If they were sincere about it then they would have added it at the beginning. If a movement to allow it would start to ramp up you would then get a movement to not allow it and then SE would just take a neutral stance and do nothing about it (just like the RPC has done with the whole primary and secondary server thing). I would not get my hopes up if someone was hoping for this feature. 

 

I will try to keep politics out of my post as I sometimes get a bit crazy, (I can't help it though. I worked in a local political firm for 4 years >.o) but I think they are dropping the ball on not allowing it. 

 

Felix and Armi are right about Japanese culture being very conservative (at least the old people who run the country are) so the management of SE Japan is also probably holding back this decision.

 

Edit: Just realized everything has pretty much been cleared up and everything I said has already been said before >.>. Just go along people, nothing to see here.

[Ellie]

As an activist for LGBT rights in real life, I'm sorely disappointed that they're not allowing gay marriages from the get-go, but I can understand why they think they have to do it. Even though the US has made a lot of progress in even the last five years, there is still a sizable minority here that are against gay marriage.

 

There's still a lot of controversy in the US, and combined with how stunted the equality movement is in Japan, I can understand why Yoshi-P doesn't want this kind of publicity before the game has hit the shelves. He doesn't want this to become the only thing about his game that people are talking about.

 

That said, though, I think a lot of people are wrong to conflate Japan's dim view of marriage equality in real life with their view of homosexuality contained in the popular media like anime and manga and video games. There was no real backlash or outcry when a bug in Tomodachi Collection: New Life allowed male mii's to not only marry but also raise children. People even loved it and got the game solely because of it. Nintendo then quietly patched it out of the game.

 

Even when it was being discussed on the Japanese side of the beta forums, it didn't seem (from what I could gather) that they were much concerned with the moral implications as much as they were concerned with how it would affect the game's publicity.

 

I don't approve, but I can understand holding it off at least for now. If they decide against allowing it, though, you can bet I'll be first in the picket line.

[CrimsonMars]

Anyone else worried that there might be flaming going on?

[shotgunbadger]

As a gay man this obviously bothers me, but as said I can at least understand that a Japanese company is most likely not going to be the vanguard of social change for gays. I don't like it but to be honest the bar was pretty low for an Asian company in my mind so nothing's really damaged.

[Amadeus]

((Because the SE forums only allow me 1 1,000 character post every 10min, I'm posting this here.  I know there's already a thread discussing this topic, but I feel like this is deserves its own post.))

 

Recently it was announced that marriage would be a feature within Final Fantasy 14 ARR.  The system as of now, is planned to be for opposite gendered couples only, with the possibility of same gendered marriages being implemented based on player feedback.  I argue that waiting for this feedback is, statistically speaking, a complete waste of time.  The numbers already exist to indicate that the players of the afore mentioned game approve of same sex marriage by a wide margin.  Let's consider the following, using the United States,a traditionally conservative country, as a model.

 

 

 

- Among millennials (people born after 1980), support forsame sex marriage is over 70%

 

 

 

- Among people born after 1965, support for same sexmarriage is over 50%

 

 

 

- According to the Entertainment Software Association's 2013 data, the average age of video game players is 30, with 64% of all players falling in the millennial category.

 

 

 

These numbers alone show that a good majority of video game players (if not a substantial majority), support same sex marriage.  Assuming that Final Fantasy 14 players fall within the "video game players" demographic, it's quite easy to see in advance that support among the player base would be high. 

 

 

 

Square Enix is running a business though, and I understand that.  After the debacle that was the initial release of Final Fantasy 14, and all the hard work they've put in to revitalizing the game, I can understand that they don't want any niggling distractions to keep any potential players away.  Fortunately, there are real world examples to show that SE shouldn't be afraid to implement same sex marriage. 

 

 

 

First, let's look at the Old Republic.  Bioware has a history of offering same sex relationships in their games, and well before this one launched, they stated that the intent to continue that tradition within the Old Republic.  The usual suspects came out in protest, the American Family Association, One Million Moms, ect. (people who don't play video games in any real numbers by the way), but Bioware was warmly recieved by the video game community.  When the game launched, they had over 1 million subscribers within the first 3 days.  The game ultimately took a tumble in the numbers, but that can in no way be attributed to the same sex marriage "controversy".

 

 

 

Next let's look at Trion's game RIFT.  In one of the game's post launch patches, they implemented a marriage system without gender restrictions.  There was no controversy, there was no fallout, but they did set the record for most marriages in a video game in a single day when the patch went live.

 

 

 

Historically, video game developers who have taken the boldstep of supporting equality have been rewarded for their bravery by the good will of their player bases.  There will always be detractors, but support for the issue among gamers has been rock solid, and support grows with every new poll. 

As someone who first realized he was gay thanks to your video games (Kuja you naughty thing), I humbly ask that you consider my arguments in deciding on the fate of marriage equality in Eorzea.    

[Aysun]

For the record it was announced months ago.... Might want to update that if you're going to appeal to SE with this.

[ArmachiA]

You can also edit your post in the Beta forums after you posted and there isn't a character limit on that

[Magellan]

Aldeus: "As someone who first realized he was gay thanks to your video games(Kuja you naughty thing), I humbly ask that you consider my arguments in deciding on the fate of marriage equality in Eorzea."

 

Frankly, my favorite part =P

 

 

I applaud you for taking a stand, Aldeus, hopefully (though I doubt they will release with same-sex marriage) SE will figure things out quickly, and will do what is right.

[Amadeus]

You can also edit your post in the Beta forums after you posted and there isn't a character limit on that

 

You're right!  Thanks!

 

And a month is recent, relatively.  The game has been in production for quite a while.

[Felix Sideris]

((Because the SE forums only allow me 1 1,000 character post every 10min, I'm posting this here.  I know there's already a thread discussing this topic, but I feel like this is deserves its own post.))

 

Recently it was announced that marriage would be a featurewithin Final Fantasy 14 ARR.  The systemas of now, is planned to be for opposite gendered couples only, with the possibility of same gendered marriages being implemented based on player feedback.  I argue that waiting for thisfeedback is, statistically speaking, a complete waste of time.  The numbers already exist to indicate thatthe players of the afore mentioned game approve of same sex marriage by a wide margin.  Let's consider the following, usingthe United States,a traditionally conservative country, as a model.

 

 

 

- Among millennials (people born after 1980), support forsame sex marriage is over 70%

 

 

 

- Among people born after 1965, support for same sexmarriage is over 50%

 

 

 

- According to the Entertainment Software Association's 2013data, the average age of video game players is 30, with 64% of all players falling in the millennial category.

 

 

 

These numbers alone show that a good majority of video gameplayers (if not a substantial majority), support same sex marriage.  Assuming that Final Fantasy 14 players fallwithin the "video game players" demographic, it's quite easy to see in advance that support among the player base would be high. 

 

 

 

Square Enix is running a business though, and I understandthat.  After the debacle that was theinitial release of Final Fantasy 14, and all the hard work they've put in to revitalizing the game, I can understand that they don't want any niggling distractions to keep any potential players away.  Fortunately, there are real world examples toshow that SE shouldn't be afraid to implement same sex marriage. 

 

 

 

First, let's look at the Old Republic.  Bioware has a history of offering same sexrelationships in their game, and well before their game launched, they stated that they intended to continue that tradition within the Old Republic.  The usual suspects came out in protest, theAmerican Family Association, One Million Moms, ect. (people who don't play video games in any real numbers by the way), but Bioware was warmly recieved by the video game community.  When the gamelaunched, they had over 1 million subscribers within the first 3 days.  The game ultimately took a tumble in thenumbers, but that can in no way be attributed to the same sex marriage "controversy".

 

 

 

Next let's look at Tirion's game RIFT.  In one of the game's post launch patches,they implemented a marriage system without gender restrictions.  There was no controversy, there was no fallout, but they did set the record for most marriages in a video game in a single day when the patch went live.

 

 

 

Historically, video game developers who have taken the boldstep of supporting equality have been rewarded for their bravery by the good will of their player bases.  There will always be detractors, but support for the issue among gamers has been rock solid, and support grows with every new poll. 

As someone who first realized he was gay thanks to your video games(Kuja you naughty thing), I humbly ask that you consider my arguments in deciding on the fate of marriage equality in Eorzea.    

You might want to take note that using the united states as an example for a Japanese game is a bad idea.

 

If the united states is considered conservative, then japan is considered ancient.

 

They have 2000 years of cultural tradition and as of right now same sex marriage is against the law in Japan. You need to take note that a large part of their player base IS Japanese, and that they don't want to offend their own people by doing this, either. 

 

I'm not saying that this shouldn't be implemented, however.

 

I do not want to see huge, sensitive debates starting and creating a rift in the community either.

 

People supporting this should hang tight and be patient as I can guarantee it will be implemented in the neat future (Likely 2.1).

 

Besides. Isn't marriage itself not getting implemented until 2.1 anyway?