Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

[Dameon]

This question came up sort of as a joke on NeoGaf, but it kind of made me think.

 

Will Final Fantasy: A Realm Reborn allow same sex in game marriage?

 

As far as I know they haven't allowed this in any other MMO, the closest I can think of is the same sex npc romances in SW:ToR that were in a single mission string with only one potential same sex NPC.

[Kari Illderthane]

The marriage system is actually old news but I did find this article on Kotaku.

 

We previously released a screenshot of a sanctum in the woods.

So when the era came to an end, something happened that led to the sanctum being rediscovered. So what is this place for? Well, in creating a world, we wanted put anything in it that is close to reality. Marriage is one of those things. That's why we built the sanctum—so that characters and players can get married. The system for weddings—proper services and such—might not be available right from the beginning. It'll most likely be added in a patch. However, we've already prepared a place for it.

As for same-sex marriage, this is an extremely controversial topic that has been under discussion in the MMO world for the past few years. First we would like to start out with opposite-sex marriage, and then consider the feedback from our players in order to make a careful decision. I can't say whether or not it will be possible at this point in time. I'd like to keep dialog open with our players as we deliberate the matter.

 

 

[Naunet]

As far as I know they haven't allowed this in any other MMO, the closest I can think of is the same sex npc romances in SW:ToR that were in a single mission string with only one potential same sex NPC.

 

When Rift implemented its marriage system, it came out of the gate with zero restrictions on who you could marry. Squee seems to be of the mind that putting a marriage system in place with no gender restrictions will somehow offend people, but honestly? No one raged at Trion when they did it - and in fact, it was celebrated. The most news-worthy part of Rift's marriage system was the world record they set for most online marriages in a single day (which I happily took part in!).

 

So yeah, to answer the question: No, Squee is not going to be allowing same sex marriages in ARR. Is it absolutely, utterly stupid? Yes. But there it is.

[Myxie Tryxle]

Same sex marriage is less progressive in Japan than the United States, so probably not. They actually have a law that is worded that marriage is between a man and a woman, though they will acknowledge a same-sex marriage if it occurs with a foreigner in a foreign country.

[Eve Malusion]

Someone else posted it when I was in the posting thing looking it up. What they said.

[Moltove]

Yoshi P stated he was going to look into it, but lead off with straight marriage.

 

I think it's more or less a double-edged sword: Bad publicity for not letting gay marriage in game (though it's currently the standard in gaming) and bad publicity and griefers for allowing it. There's been games where the players DEMANDED it and then the company got assaulted by all the people against it.

[Salty Lake]

As far as I know they haven't allowed this in any other MMO, the closest I can think of is the same sex npc romances in SW:ToR that were in a single mission string with only one potential same sex NPC.

 

When Rift implemented its marriage system, it came out of the gate with zero restrictions on who you could marry. Squee seems to be of the mind that putting a marriage system in place with no gender restrictions will somehow offend people, but honestly? No one raged at Trion when they did it - and in fact, it was celebrated. The most news-worthy part of Rift's marriage system was the world record they set for most online marriages in a single day (which I happily took part in!).

 

So yeah, to answer the question: No, Squee is not going to be allowing same sex marriages in ARR. Is it absolutely, utterly stupid? Yes. But there it is.

 

Time for some IC protests.  :lol:

[Naunet]

bad publicity and griefers for allowing it. There's been games where the players DEMANDED it and then the company got assaulted by all the people against it.

 

What game? Because Trion didn't get any notable flack for not including gender restrictions in their marriage system for Rift. And they were incredibly open about what was going to happen (pointed it out in their little advert video and everything).

---

Time for some IC protests.  :lol:

 

I would be all over this - IC and OOC.

[Felix Sideris]

As far as I know they haven't allowed this in any other MMO, the closest I can think of is the same sex npc romances in SW:ToR that were in a single mission string with only one potential same sex NPC.

 

When Rift implemented its marriage system, it came out of the gate with zero restrictions on who you could marry. Squee seems to be of the mind that putting a marriage system in place with no gender restrictions will somehow offend people, but honestly? No one raged at Trion when they did it - and in fact, it was celebrated. The most news-worthy part of Rift's marriage system was the world record they set for most online marriages in a single day (which I happily took part in!).

 

So yeah, to answer the question: No, Squee is not going to be allowing same sex marriages in ARR. Is it absolutely, utterly stupid? Yes. But there it is.

You need to remember that the United States is FAR ahead of other countries in terms of accepting homosexuality. Japanese society, as far as what I can tell off of other threads/sites that have talked about this topic, does not accept it as openly. This game is world-wide and thus they need to take into account the customs and socially accepted ways of each country their game goes into. Let's say for example(this is hypothetical) Germany was extremely against homosexuality. If they released that on the game, it -could- offend a large part part of the German player base. 

 

The chance of offending people is relatively low, but square enix seems to be concerned with -all- of their players, not just the majority. At this point in time they have far more important things to handle than dealing with such a controversial topic, and so the safest thing to do is exactly what they will be doing. 

 

It is better to not release it initially and then add it in upon majority player-base request than to add it in and offend some of your players.

 

I applaud them for their caution about it, because it -is- sensitive to some people, and while I won't argue in either direction for it, I think their decision is appropriate considering the struggles that FFXIV has gone through and the effort they have put into reviving this game into something as amazing as it now is.

 

Also, a large majority of the player base that wants it added, or would argue against it, would likely be Role Players, which is usually the smallest community in an MMO in comparison to PvE and PvP players.

 

So, with all that said, I'd say lets sit back and enjoy the game and not get wrapped up in such a controversial topic about a small addition they added into the game. Eventually it will, or will not, be changed based upon the responses they get from the community. They have pretty much promised that.

[Magellan]

The frustrating thing is, if we canon this decision, which I'm sure many people will, suddenly Eorzea becomes a world where same-sex relationships are frowned upon.

 

 

... and that makes me a very sad panda ;_;

[CrimsonMars]

Would it matter though? Even if they don't allow gay marriage officially, we can always 'role-play' it out, should we do have gay lovers, can we?

 

Would actual marriage provide some sort of bonuses?

[Naunet]

It is better to not release it initially and then add it in upon majority player-base request than to add it in and offend some of your players.

 

I disagree completely. The best course of action is to present marriage with no restrictions and treat it as completely normal. Don't make a fuss about it. Just do it. Nobody's going to seriously get in a tizzy over a lack of gender restrictions in marriage in a video game. The ones that do are generally groups that don't play video games anyway (like ultra conservative groups in NA - who, by the way, didn't kick up one bit of fuss with Rift, which is also a global game).

[Clover]

Time for some IC protests.  :lol:

Haha, this. At least this will bring some interesting stories.

 

Also, if such marriages aren't allowed, does that mean that homosexuality isn't well seen by hyurs or any other race that has a marriage system? I guess the lore doesn't really state anything about this, but it'd be good to figure out in order to determine how shocked or passively our characters will react.

 

I know that my Miqo'te's Hipparion tribe has a rule that allows it, so she'd see it as a very normal thing.

[Magellan]

Would it matter though? Even if they don't allow gay marriage officially, we can always 'role-play' it out, should we do have gay lovers, can we?

 

Would actual marriage provide some sort of bonuses?

 

Several mmos do give bonuses to couples with their marriage system, yes. As far as the RP goes... if the game doesn't allow same-sex marriage, many will take that as lore, therefore preventing our characters from same-sex marriage as well.

 

And I also disagree with Felix =p. Respectfully, of course.

[Naunet]

Also, if such marriages aren't allowed, does that mean that homosexuality isn't well seen by hyurs or any other race that has a marriage system? I guess the lore doesn't really state anything about this, but it'd be good to figure out in order to determine how shocked or passively our characters will react.

 

I know that my Miqo'te's Hipparion tribe has a rule that allows it, so she'd see it as a very normal thing.

 

I recall seeing a quote from Yoshi-P (or maybe it was from that official lore guy on the lore forums) where it was stated that there really aren't any gender discriminations when it comes to romantic relationships in Eorzea.

 

Which makes the marriage system being hetero-only even more ridiculous. Squee needs to put their grown-up pants on and actually take a stand that they clearly want to take but are too chicken to do so.

[Clover]

Also, if such marriages aren't allowed, does that mean that homosexuality isn't well seen by hyurs or any other race that has a marriage system? I guess the lore doesn't really state anything about this, but it'd be good to figure out in order to determine how shocked or passively our characters will react.

 

I know that my Miqo'te's Hipparion tribe has a rule that allows it, so she'd see it as a very normal thing.

 

I recall seeing a quote from Yoshi-P (or maybe it was from that official lore guy on the lore forums) where it was stated that there really aren't any gender discriminations when it comes to romantic relationships in Eorzea.

 

Which makes the marriage system being hetero-only even more ridiculous. Squee needs to put their grown-up pants on and actually take a stand that they clearly want to take but are too chicken to do so.

I see. It's ridiculous, indeed, especially if it's a choice they've made to satisfy the most intolerant and unpleasant players O_O

That someone is offended over homosexual marriage at this time and age is absolutely silly, why should their opinion be taken into such consideration?

 

In any case, since there's no discrimination in Eorzea, then I guess it'd be safe to at least imagine that such marriages are allowed in the RP?

[S'demyx Tia]

guess I'm not getting married... 哎吔

[Magellan]

guess I'm not getting married... 哎吔

 

Lets have a marriage of convenience, then have our own not-so-secret lovers. The forbidden love angle will be super-dramatic!

[Felix Sideris]

It is better to not release it initially and then add it in upon majority player-base request than to add it in and offend some of your players.

 

I disagree completely. The best course of action is to present marriage with no restrictions and treat it as completely normal. Don't make a fuss about it. Just do it. Nobody's going to seriously get in a tizzy over a lack of gender restrictions in marriage in a video game. The ones that do are generally groups that don't play video games anyway (like ultra conservative groups in NA - who, by the way, didn't kick up one bit of fuss with Rift, which is also a global game).

Again,

 

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

 

Treating it as completely normal is also an opinion. Some people view it as the complete opposite. Going ahead implementing it with no restrictions completely disregards the opinions of those who are against it. Which is why they have taken the neutral role of putting that discussion on hold and implementing opposite-sex marriage until they can get time to consult the player base to know what they want, as a whole.

 

Yoshi P knows what he is doing. From a business standpoint it makes 0 sense to put any effort into this subject on a video game until they solidify their game and get it released. 

 

The fact that they are putting the decision on whether or not to implement same sex marriage on hold is a perfect example that they respect all of their players, not just those who want to see this passed into their game.

 

Call it overly cautious, maybe that's all it is, but I still think it is a smart decision.

 

Anyone who wants to see this implemented, and i could be wrong, but I think they would likely be willing to wait and support it when Square brings the topic up.

[ArmachiA]

Yeah, you kind of have to understand Japanese culture here, which in a lot of ways is very, very backwards. For some reason people see Japan as very progressive, when they are in fact very traditional and way behind the Western world for being inclusive. I mean Japan's motto is pretty much "Deru kugi wa utareru (The nail that sticks out gets hammered down)" This describes EVERYTHING they do.

 

I understand why SE is being cautious, I don't AGREE, but I absolutely understand.

[Clover]

Again,

 

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

Actually, I believe that Spain had homosexual marriages quite before the United States did ^^;

You'd be surprised at the amount of countries that support it.

 

Putting that aside, I did see Western people whine when Western Mabinogi announced that same-sex marriages would be allowed, so it's not a Japan only thing. The whole world is nuts.

[Myxie Tryxle]

As far as the lore goes, you can consider the fact that one of the biggest opponents of gay marriage, namely Christianity and Christian groups, doesn't exist in the setting. Looking at the Twelve, there are several male-female relationships but none that are same sex. Of course we only have 1-2 paragraphs about each of them, two of the Twelve have a father but no mother, and six of them have no parentage at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Menphina at least encouraged love in every form.

 

Again, there will be regional differences as well. These poll numbers are confusing, but from what I've been able to interpret, Japan is anywhere between 3-17 years less progressive than comparable polls in the United States. Even in the US only 13 states, Washington DC, and five Native American tribes have legalized same-sex marriage. I don't think you can blame Square Enix for being careful about jumping headfirst into muddy water like this. It would be nice if they took a stance on the issue, but they aren't going to until they have a reasonably good idea how it will affect the bottom line.

[Kellen whitewolf]

does anybody know how the marrage systme will work like  will the couple be able share items between the two those who seen sword art online would know what im getting at

[Felix Sideris]

Again,

 

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

Actually, I believe that Spain had homosexual marriages quite before the United States did ^^;

You'd be surprised at the amount of countries that support it.

 

Putting that aside, I did see Western people whine when Western Mabinogi announced that same-sex marriages would be allowed, so it's not a Japan only thing. The whole world is nuts.

I have my own thoughts on the topic, but I don't think this is an appropriate place to discuss them personally, and I think everyone has the right to decide how they want to live their own life, too, so yeah.

 

That set aside.

 

Japan is VERY different from the united states.

 

There is an amazing quote from the movie Emperor(2012) that explains this better than I could, but I couldn't find the exact quote, so this is from memory;

 

In Japanese culture, on the surface they act like westerners, they are progressive, they blend in. However, it is a lie, a front. Underneath lies over 2000 years of tradition, beliefs and culture which is deeply rooted into the people and always will be.

 

That said, Japan is known for being isolationism, and despite the appearance of being as progressive and forward moving as the rest of the world, they are DEEPLY rooted in where they came from.

 

A large part of Yoshi P being cautious about this is likely because of that very thing. So while some might not agree with his decision, it is the most neutral route to take. Especially since it is not openly accepted in Japan, and it is a Japanese game(pretty much).

 

However, I can see them adding it in sometime in the near future as lore supports it and a large amount of the player base either doesn't care, or supports it as well. 

 

So, I'd say don't worry or stress over it and hang tight

---

does anybody know how the marrage systme will work like  will the couple be able share items between the two those who seen sword art online would know what im getting at

I think it is reasonable to assume it will have something like that involved.

 

As far as I am willing to speculate:

 

Shared housing/items/banking/etc are all reasonable to expect.

[Twinflame]

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

 

Treating it as completely normal is also an opinion. Some people view it as the complete opposite. Going ahead implementing it with no restrictions completely disregards the opinions of those who are against it. Which is why they have taken the neutral role of putting that discussion on hold and implementing opposite-sex marriage until they can get time to consult the player base to know what they want, as a whole.

 

You are forgetting the fact that large swaths of the playerbase not only support homosexuality, but are homosexuals who are married to their partners. It is untrue to say that the US is the only country that sees this as normal; many countries are far ahead of the US in respecting homosexual rights and see us as backwards. To those countries, Japan is downright primitive.

 

Treating it as abnormal is an opinion and many people see that opinion as aberrant and divisive. Going ahead and implementing it with restrictions completely disregards the opinions, lifestyles and in many cases the actual irl status of those who are in favor of homosexual marriage. Which is why "putting off" that decision is in NO WAY neutral. If they do not implement same-sex marriage they are actively disallowing it. They are actively stating that the beliefs and lifestyles of many of their players are strange, unusual, and will not be accepted until divisive elements in the playerbase agree to it.

 

Given the tone of a lot of their commentary, this seems to go completely against Yoshi's paradigm. They're afraid of the vote-kick function being used to troll. Their afraid of whispers in raids being used to say cruel things. They're afraid of people rolling need on things they don't need because it is rude. And then they turn around and actively speak down to a large element of their customers, as if there's something strange and unwanted about them.