Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

[Reppu]

Just remember, to everyone adamantly 'striking' for this? There's a line between making your case known, and then there's being insensitive to all parties involved by being overbearing and unreasonable.

 

When you cross the line, you poison what you're fighting for, and what you're fighting for is no longer the pure ideal you were fighting for. Of course, no one has gone to this obvious extreme, yet. And hopefully never will.

 

But for those threatening or will quit because Square Enix is not catering to your ideal? Is the kind of immature browbeating that poisons your argument. Show your support by playing, and put some confidence that the FFXIV developers will deliver what you're asking for when they feel they can.

 

Most of the MMO examples given so far? Did not start with homosexual marriage. Be reasonable, look at what you're comparing, and see that everything takes time, especially with delicate situations like this.

 

As for me? I'm all for it, but I also know it won't ruin my roleplaying experience if it doesn't happen immediately, or ever. But this is just me. I don't tend to always roleplay my matching sexuality.

 

And in the end, love transcends a title. If my female Miqo'te finds a female _____, I'll roleplay a wedding with out the 'official' consent. But, again, that's just me. Me putting a little more faith in FFXIV to deliver. And even if they don't?

 

I still got everything else.

 

Who has threatened to quit so far?

 

It's a common threat on the official forums. But the official forums are also pretty much the massive sum of the minority of the most vocal, and worst, individuals around.

 

It's sort of a blanket statement for anyone who's done so on the official forums, even if they haven't done so here. But, unfortunately, browbeating and threats is the most many people can do. And it never works.

 

In the end, a little patience goes a long way. Most head developers wouldn't even touch on the subject, but Yoshi-P did ask people for patience on this matter. He's responded, is it not enough the issue is at least being considered?

 

If not, then continue striking when you've already gotten an official response. I have my doubts it will any good, and just quite the opposite. Your cries for equality, as righteous as they are, have been heard. Now, you should wait. And if your waiting brings no fruits of labor, then strike again.

 

Do not let the iron cool, but do not break it beneath your blows. Least there be nothing left but scraps and broken dreams.

[Colyer]

Quite honestly? I doubt that homosexual marriage will be a part of ARR anytime soon, if at all.

 

Does it bother me? Not really. 

 

There's always the arguments, "It's only a game, get over it". But if it were the other way around, would you be able to? If certain races were barred from marriage (be they hetero or homo), would it be getting the same easy-going responses? Doubtful.

 

Anyhow, unless there are certain bonuses you get from marriage, I say to Hells with it. We can create our own ceremonies and have a blast doing so.

 

 

Well said! People get so caught up in 'it's not a big deal' when... it is. For people who are LGBT, its kind of invalidating their gaming experience. What if Miqo's were restricted from marriage? What if only people who paid $5 extra per month could get married? What if only fair-skinned people could get married, or only Legacy players?

 

There would be a lot of flack about above scenarios, so how is this any different? People have the right to express themselves, their sexuality, and to ask SE to deliver a better, equal marriage system.

 

Honestly they said they are considering it, that is good enough for me. And even if they don't it won't invalidate my gaming experience. Honestly I'll probably less miffed than when Bioware decided no same sex relationships and that was because with the right appearance mod Corso was kinda cute. 

 

As far as any future RP goes, if I do end up RPing a same sex relationship and marriage comes up, I will treat it one of two ways - either what Yoshi is correct that lore-wise it is accepted and the fact I can't do the marriage "quest" as a game play mechanic or if the lore states it is not generally accepted then I will say the city-states do not dictate my relationship, how my partner and I feel do.

[S'demyx Tia]

Quite honestly? I doubt that homosexual marriage will be a part of ARR anytime soon, if at all.

 

Does it bother me? Not really. 

 

There's always the arguments, "It's only a game, get over it". But if it were the other way around, would you be able to? If certain races were barred from marriage (be they hetero or homo), would it be getting the same easy-going responses? Doubtful.

 

Anyhow, unless there are certain bonuses you get from marriage, I say to Hells with it. We can create our own ceremonies and have a blast doing so.

 

 

Well said! People get so caught up in 'it's not a big deal' when... it is. For people who are LGBT, its kind of invalidating their gaming experience. What if Miqo's were restricted from marriage? What if only people who paid $5 extra per month could get married? What if only fair-skinned people could get married, or only Legacy players?

 

There would be a lot of flack about above scenarios, so how is this any different? People have the right to express themselves, their sexuality, and to ask SE to deliver a better, equal marriage system.

 

Honestly they said they are considering it, that is good enough for me. And even if they don't it won't invalidate my gaming experience. Honestly I'll probably less miffed than when Bioware decided no same sex relationships and that was because with the right appearance mod Corso was kinda cute. 

 

As far as any future RP goes, if I do end up RPing a same sex relationship and marriage comes up, I will treat it one of two ways - either what Yoshi is correct that lore-wise it is accepted and the fact I can't do the marriage "quest" as a game play mechanic or if the lore states it is not generally accepted then I will say the city-states do not dictate my relationship, how my partner and I feel do.

 

If I recall, there was an extremely gay intimate scene with a certain elf in Dragon Age (Bioware game).

 

 

[Gone4everbye]

I don't really understand the point to marriage in MMOs. It seems gimmicky more often than not.

[Colyer]

Quite honestly? I doubt that homosexual marriage will be a part of ARR anytime soon, if at all.

 

Does it bother me? Not really. 

 

There's always the arguments, "It's only a game, get over it". But if it were the other way around, would you be able to? If certain races were barred from marriage (be they hetero or homo), would it be getting the same easy-going responses? Doubtful.

 

Anyhow, unless there are certain bonuses you get from marriage, I say to Hells with it. We can create our own ceremonies and have a blast doing so.

 

 

Well said! People get so caught up in 'it's not a big deal' when... it is. For people who are LGBT, its kind of invalidating their gaming experience. What if Miqo's were restricted from marriage? What if only people who paid $5 extra per month could get married? What if only fair-skinned people could get married, or only Legacy players?

 

There would be a lot of flack about above scenarios, so how is this any different? People have the right to express themselves, their sexuality, and to ask SE to deliver a better, equal marriage system.

 

Honestly they said they are considering it, that is good enough for me. And even if they don't it won't invalidate my gaming experience. Honestly I'll probably less miffed than when Bioware decided no same sex relationships and that was because with the right appearance mod Corso was kinda cute. 

 

As far as any future RP goes, if I do end up RPing a same sex relationship and marriage comes up, I will treat it one of two ways - either what Yoshi is correct that lore-wise it is accepted and the fact I can't do the marriage "quest" as a game play mechanic or if the lore states it is not generally accepted then I will say the city-states do not dictate my relationship, how my partner and I feel do.

 

If I recall, there was an extremely gay intimate scene with a certain elf in Dragon Age (Bioware game).

 

 

 

 

Ugh - yeah I actually preferred Leliana over Zevran ... he was so scummy I wouldn't touch him with a 20 ft pole even if they gave me a full body hazmat suit.

 

Plus I'm not a fan of tattoos especially ones of the face.

[S'demyx Tia]

blah blah marriage

blah i agree blah blah

 

bioware blah blah

blah blah gay stuff blah

 

 

 

 

 

blahblah

 

"Plus I'm not a fan of tattoos especially ones of the face."

 

Finally, something we agree on!

[Naunet]

However, I think it is more important to release their game and get it stabilized and some income flowing in before they can direct full and proper attention to it.

 

It isn't like they are sitting there drinking beers, feet up on their desk talking about the weather. They are preparing a release of an MMO that pretty much crashed and burned because the last development team didn't listen to the player base telling them not to release the game because it wasn't ready.

 

Are you honestly trying to claim that implementing a marriage system without gender restrictions would somehow take substantially more time than implementing a marriage system with restrictions? The logic, I see none of it here; all I see are excuses being made to white knight passive discrimination.

[Reppu]

However, I think it is more important to release their game and get it stabilized and some income flowing in before they can direct full and proper attention to it.

 

It isn't like they are sitting there drinking beers, feet up on their desk talking about the weather. They are preparing a release of an MMO that pretty much crashed and burned because the last development team didn't listen to the player base telling them not to release the game because it wasn't ready.

 

Are you honestly trying to claim that implementing a marriage system without gender restrictions would somehow take substantially more time than implementing a marriage system with restrictions? The logic, I see none of it here; all I see are excuses being made to white knight passive discrimination.

 

While it is a poor excuse? This is the kind of toxic behavior, the name calling of calling someone discriminatory toward gay marriage, that poisons the pool, when there's no sign of this even being remotely the truth.

 

Do not take the 'hyper feminist' (when we all know humanists are the truly righteous, not feminists or 'masculinists') route of using powerful, unwarranted words against anyone who is not immediately following the absolute extreme of your argument.

 

Stabilizing your game before risking the potential home-country backlash (Which is unlikely, but it is still a thing considering Japan's unstable population) of allowing gay marriage, is far, far, -far- more important. Especially for a once-failed title like FFXIV.

 

You are incapable of arguing that gay marriage will have any money-making impact, in either direction, unless you can somehow guarantee the entire LGBT population will suddenly throw their money at SquareEnix for this, or the entire homophobic population will suddenly quit.

 

As it stands, there is really no real reason, at this time, to devote further attention to the subject than Yoshi-P has already stated, which is 'We're looking into it'.

 

And if you think that's a brush off lie, then clearly you do not know this man.

 

I am going to be patient. You can keep throwing toxic remarks as desired.

[synaesthetic]

I'm considering not restarting over this and just giving up on MMOs entirely as a completely fucked genre.

 

This nonsense, combined with the incredibly short Phase 4 beta (how are we supposed to properly test arcanist in three days?!) and the insulting denial of early access from 1.0 players...

 

Squeenix, ya'll aren't really inspiring confidence in this lesbian gamer.

 

This game had me so goddamned excited, a subscription-only game without a cash shop, but I swear to gods, sometimes I think the dev team ate a giant bowl of brain cancer for breakfast.

[Twinflame]

However, I think it is more important to release their game and get it stabilized and some income flowing in before they can direct full and proper attention to it.

 

It isn't like they are sitting there drinking beers, feet up on their desk talking about the weather. They are preparing a release of an MMO that pretty much crashed and burned because the last development team didn't listen to the player base telling them not to release the game because it wasn't ready.

 

Are you honestly trying to claim that implementing a marriage system without gender restrictions would somehow take substantially more time than implementing a marriage system with restrictions? The logic, I see none of it here; all I see are excuses being made to white knight passive discrimination.

 

While it is a poor excuse? This is the kind of toxic behavior, the name calling of calling someone discriminatory toward gay marriage, that poisons the pool, when there's no sign of this even being remotely the truth.

 

Do not take the 'hyper feminist' (when we all know humanists are the truly righteous, not feminists or 'masculinists') route of using powerful, unwarranted words against anyone who is not immediately following the absolute extreme of your argument.

 

Wow. Look at all the accusations Reppu just made against Naunet about her accusations about the other guy. Following your own advice epic fail much lol

 

Reppu also gets a star for using the word "feminist" as an insult. Good show, sir!

[Reppu]

However, I think it is more important to release their game and get it stabilized and some income flowing in before they can direct full and proper attention to it.

 

It isn't like they are sitting there drinking beers, feet up on their desk talking about the weather. They are preparing a release of an MMO that pretty much crashed and burned because the last development team didn't listen to the player base telling them not to release the game because it wasn't ready.

 

Are you honestly trying to claim that implementing a marriage system without gender restrictions would somehow take substantially more time than implementing a marriage system with restrictions? The logic, I see none of it here; all I see are excuses being made to white knight passive discrimination.

 

While it is a poor excuse? This is the kind of toxic behavior, the name calling of calling someone discriminatory toward gay marriage, that poisons the pool, when there's no sign of this even being remotely the truth.

 

Do not take the 'hyper feminist' (when we all know humanists are the truly righteous, not feminists or 'masculinists') route of using powerful, unwarranted words against anyone who is not immediately following the absolute extreme of your argument.

 

Wow. Look at all the accusations Reppu just made against Naunet about her accusations about the other guy. Following your own advice epic fail much lol

 

Reppu also gets a star for using the word "feminist" as an insult. Good show, sir!

 

Do you not know what hyper feminism is?

 

Also, I am unaware that you can take 'white knight passive discrimination' as anything but a toxic remark.

 

Please, if you do not know what hyper feminism is, and how it's hurting the feminist movement, which is actually a humanity-driven equality  movement, and not the extremes that hyper feminism employs to depower the male gender in favor of female supremacy (Yes, this is what hyper feminism is), then clearly you do not understand what I am trying to say, "sir".

[Havoc Snow]

The issue I see is that even here in the United States same sex marriage is still illegal in many areas, and in most of the other countries where this game is supported (UK, France, Germany, Japan) same-sex marriage is either illegal or considered widely unfavorable (looking at you France) by many of the voting population. Because of that, even if progressively it's seem like a good idea, it's still dangerous territory and while many people may hail a company for outward and open thinking (and many people will flame them for it), there are few people who will flame a company for playing it safe. Sure there will be people in the LGBT community who are upset by this, but there will be many more who just don't give two shakes about it and wouldn't probably use the mechanic even if it was available in the game.

 

Final Fantasy XIV already failed once, and because of that I think they are somewhat terrified of making any decisions that could in any way jeopardize the sales of their game. It's not discrimination, especially when, like I said, it's not even legal in most places this game is sold.

 

In either case I honestly think this thread should be locked or something, it's quickly approaching the danger zone.

[Reppu]

The issue I see is that even here in the United States same sex marriage is still illegal in many areas, and in most of the other countries where this game is supported (UK, France, Germany, Japan) same-sex marriage is either illegal or considered widely unfavorable (looking at you France) by many of the voting population. Because of that, even if progressively it's seem like a good idea, it's still dangerous territory and while many people may hail a company for outward and open thinking (and many people will flame them for it), there are few people who will flame a company for playing it safe. Sure there will be people in the LGBT community who are upset by this, but there will be many more who just don't give two shakes about it and wouldn't probably use the mechanic even if it was available in the game.

 

Final Fantasy XIV already failed once, and because of that I think they are somewhat terrified of making any decisions that could in any way jeopardize the sales of their game. It's not discrimination, especially when, like I said, it's not even legal in most places this game is sold.

 

In either case I honestly think this thread should be locked or something, it's quickly approaching the danger zone.

 

There's also the chance, a very realistic one, of the game being utterly banned in Russia if gay marriage were allowed. Which, is an extreme shame? Is something Square-Enix cannot ignore as a company.

 

And, I want to stress, I would -love- for gay marriage in FFXIV, to make many people happy. But I also understand that it's something that needs to be progressively implemented at a later date, when things are settled and risks are assessed.

 

I know it's difficult for many to accept, but we're living in a better time than most for this. And this is why you've been asked to have patience. The world is changing, but you can't expect to get anywhere by trying to force it to flip all at once.

[Havoc Snow]

The issue I see is that even here in the United States same sex marriage is still illegal in many areas, and in most of the other countries where this game is supported (UK, France, Germany, Japan) same-sex marriage is either illegal or considered widely unfavorable (looking at you France) by many of the voting population. Because of that, even if progressively it's seem like a good idea, it's still dangerous territory and while many people may hail a company for outward and open thinking (and many people will flame them for it), there are few people who will flame a company for playing it safe. Sure there will be people in the LGBT community who are upset by this, but there will be many more who just don't give two shakes about it and wouldn't probably use the mechanic even if it was available in the game.

 

Final Fantasy XIV already failed once, and because of that I think they are somewhat terrified of making any decisions that could in any way jeopardize the sales of their game. It's not discrimination, especially when, like I said, it's not even legal in most places this game is sold.

 

In either case I honestly think this thread should be locked or something, it's quickly approaching the danger zone.

 

There's also the chance, a very realistic one, of the game being utterly banned in Russia if gay marriage were allowed. Which, is an extreme shame? Is something Square-Enix cannot ignore as a company.

 

And, I want to stress, I would -love- for gay marriage in FFXIV, to make many people happy. But I also understand that it's something that needs to be progressively implemented at a later date, when things are settled and risks are assessed.

 

I know it's difficult for many to accept, but we're living in a better time than most for this. And this is why you've been asked to have patience. The world is changing, but you can't expect to get anywhere by trying to force it to flip all at once.

I was actually just about to come edit my post to include the IP Block thing. Not just Russia, but the Middle East and parts of South East Asia would also very likely ban the game from being sold in their countries and in some regions it would force an 18+ rating because a lot of times same sex anything is considered sexual content for whatever ass backwards reason. It all depends on where they decide to market the game and the tolerance level of the community as a whole to decide whether or same sex marriage gets added, but as I said before don't get your hopes up.

[Naunet]

It's not discrimination, especially when, like I said, it's not even legal in most places this game is sold.

 

It doesn't have to be legal to be discriminated against. Other globally released MMOs with non-gender-restricted marriage have trucked along just fine, without even a single ripple when it was released.

[S'demyx Tia]

 

"...In either case I honestly think this thread should be locked or something, it's quickly approaching the danger zone."

 

I disagree.

 

Everyone seems to be stating their opinion openly (w/o calling people out like on the BTF) without too much flack from others. Not sure why you deem this a lockable thread thus far. No one seems to be attacking anyone else, but merely having a mature discussion.

 

Being able to discuss your feelings on the topic while respecting what others have to say is a common trend amongst this board. No need to lock in my opinion! :thumbsup:

[Reppu]

It's not discrimination, especially when, like I said, it's not even legal in most places this game is sold.

 

It doesn't have to be legal to be discriminated against. Other globally released MMOs with non-gender-restricted marriage have trucked along just fine, without even a single ripple when it was released.

 

They were also implemented at a point -far- from their launch date, which is often ignored.

 

It's much harder to implement a massive ban and a sudden increase in the ratings when something is already massed in the market and actively being supported. -That- causes riots. Which no one can afford to have.

[Naunet]

They were also implemented at a point -far- from their launch date, which is often ignored.

 

It's much harder to implement a massive ban and a sudden increase in the ratings when something is already massed in the market and actively being supported. -That- causes riots. Which no one can afford to have.

 

Uhm... riots, what? I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say in that second paragraph.

 

Trion implemented marriage when they did because it wasn't a system they had considered when the game released - unlike ARR, where marriage is something Yoshi has told us is for sure coming. It was something Trion did as a gesture of support towards the roleplaying community.

[Reppu]

They were also implemented at a point -far- from their launch date, which is often ignored.

 

It's much harder to implement a massive ban and a sudden increase in the ratings when something is already massed in the market and actively being supported. -That- causes riots. Which no one can afford to have.

 

Uhm... riots, what? I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say in that second paragraph.

 

Trion implemented marriage when they did because it wasn't a system they had considered when the game released - unlike ARR, where marriage is something Yoshi has told us is for sure coming. It was something Trion did as a gesture of support towards the roleplaying community.

 

Counter Point: Marriage wasn't in FFXIV, unless I'm wrong? I was not active in 1.0.

 

And, riots. That is, if your game is suddenly banned in your country after you've invested money and time into it, you'd probably get really pissed. Granted I doubt Russia would see -riots- over FFXIV being banned a few months down the line because Square-Enix implemented gay marriage? It would be far less likely to be banned -period- down the line.

 

It's far more likely it would be banned in Russia and the Middle-East BEFORE it's released, if it was openly advertised to allow and support gay marriage.

 

Slip it in quietly during Patch 2.1 or 2.2? Awesome. Everyone is happy, we only had to wait a few months. No one gets buttmad besides the unreasonable sect of actually discriminatory fools.

[synaesthetic]

So easy to whiteknight for this when it doesn't affect you and won't ever affect you.

 

Try being gay sometime and being consistently marginalized and ignored by the entire gaming industry and all developers not called Bioware.

[Naunet]

Slip it in quietly during Patch 2.1 or 2.2? Awesome. Everyone is happy, we only had to wait a few months. No one gets buttmad besides the unreasonable sect of actually discriminatory fools.

 

Uhm...

 

I'm honestly confused as to what you think I was arguing for. We know marriage isn't going to be in the release version of the game, that it's coming some time after the game launches. What we don't know is if the system will come with ridiculous gender restrictions or not.

[Dubs]

IMO players would be RPing marriage (hetero/LGBT) regardless of implementation of any in game mechanic. Nothing is preventing anyone from orchestrating a marriage event within their respective LS/FC. Think it's just better to do away any sort of in game marriage gimmick until they get their server loads stable. For now everything seems to be centered around conjecture, hyperbole and ad hominem which does nothing but circumvent pointless discourse.

[Reppu]

So easy to whiteknight for this when it doesn't affect you and won't ever affect you.

 

Try being gay sometime and being consistently marginalized and ignored by the entire gaming industry and all developers not called Bioware.

 

I try not to boast my sexuality because it's not anyone's business? But I consider myself pansexual, bordering asexual due to my actual lack of interest in sexual acts, although I can find a man or a woman very nice to look at, but my lack of interest in gender borders remains.

 

I am, ultimately, affected by this in so much that in a technical sense. It just depends if I opt to play a Male Character or Female Character. Although I am obviously playing a Female Character, so this would only strike me if I opt for a Female Character as my romantic partner, in a sense of Roleplaying, and I -require- marriage to solidify it in-game.

 

In the real world? I'm in the discriminated sect! That's why I -support- this movement, but not to toxic, mud-slinging levels.

 

I strongly support the LGBT movement. I just feel that swinging the bat at those who are opting for patience, is bad form.

[synaesthetic]

IMO players would be RPing marriage (hetero/LGBT) regardless of implementation of any in game mechanic. Nothing is preventing anyone from orchestrating a marriage event within their respective LS/FC. Think it's just better to do away any sort of in game marriage gimmick until they get their server loads stable. For now everything seems to be centered around conjecture, hyperbole and ad hominem which does nothing but circumvent pointless discourse.

 

Easy solution is easy in two steps:

 

1) Add wedding outfits as crafting recipes.

2) Let people RP their weddings however they wish.

 

It's all-inclusive, cheaper than implementing game mechanics and since it's completely under the control of the players, nobody can accuse Squeenix of supporting those filthy homos.

[Reppu]

Slip it in quietly during Patch 2.1 or 2.2? Awesome. Everyone is happy, we only had to wait a few months. No one gets buttmad besides the unreasonable sect of actually discriminatory fools.

 

Uhm...

 

I'm honestly confused as to what you think I was arguing for. We know marriage isn't going to be in the release version of the game, that it's coming some time after the game launches. What we don't know is if the system will come with ridiculous gender restrictions or not.

 

Exactly. Put some trust in Yoshi-P I say. Strike the anvil if it begins to cool, but do not sling mud and do not beat the anvil into fragments. I'll fight for this as much as needed, but I personally will not step beyond the bounds of reason.

 

If the head developer says he is looking into it, and is asking for patience due to the delicate nature of this topic due to this day and age? I respect immensely that he is looking into it. This is far more than many others can claim.

 

He also likes roleplaying, so shrug.