Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

[Clover]

That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.

Well, I've suggested that myself as well, as I can't ultimately compare this with real life. In the end, this is a game with a limited system that lacks on many things, so you've got to use your imagination on many matters. Be it about marriage/having babies, be it about owning a magic shop in Limsa Lominsa, or be it about merely napping on the grass.

I believe that RPing the wedding ceremony is a good alternative (in a game). The other alternative is to do nothing; that's up to everyone.

 

Anyway, since many people wish for this system to be implemented, I hope it will.

[Miss Marigold]

I simply would not find it as discrimination, because I would be discriminatory toward the Japanese for being up-in-arms about their thousand-year-old traditions.

 

Not to haul out dangerous terms, but that only makes sense if you're a moral relativist. If you believe in right and wrong—that some things are good or evil independent of how a given set of people feel—then there's nothing discriminatory about thinking disallowing gay marriage is discriminatory. The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category, not merely disagreement as your post implies.

[Reppu]

 

That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.

---

 

 

To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one. However, it is there if all else fails. Alternatively you can boycott the game, what have you.

 

It's not the desired outcome, but I'll have my wedding cake and eat it, too. Even if it's not 'officially supported'. As for why?

 

Because love, to me, transcends a slip of paper or social acceptance. But again, this is -me-.

[Miss Marigold]

A common claim is that a developer stated Eorzea practices neutrality in terms of gender preferences.

 

That is my understanding as well. Even if same-sex marriage is not implemented, I will certainly RP as if it's possible.

[Reppu]

I simply would not find it as discrimination, because I would be discriminatory toward the Japanese for being up-in-arms about their thousand-year-old traditions.

 

Not to haul out dangerous terms, but that only makes sense if you're a moral relativist. If you believe in right and wrong—that some things are good or evil independent of how a given set of people feel—then there's nothing discriminatory about thinking disallowing gay marriage is discriminatory. The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category, not merely disagreement as your post implies.

 

Isn't it discrimination to label SquareEnix as morally backwards as Russia and the Middle-East? Or is that just ignorance? Either way, it was meant toward the utter extremes being presented earlier in this thread.

 

Allow me to rephrase to people who are actually making rational parallels; I will not be insensitive to the Japanese culture's traditions, even if I do not agree with them. I do not have to accept them, but I do respect their own respect toward it.

 

And before this potentially gets twisted, no. I do not respect all ancient traditions. I simply admire that the Japanese, despite being so deep-rooted in tradition, are slowly making way for transition and change, while maintaining their traditions to the best of their ability.

 

This, to me? Is beautiful. Even if it takes a longer time than other cultures, it's still worth waiting for.

[Havoc Snow]

The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category

So... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description? For all we know all the marriage system does is give you a quest that ends in some kind of cutscene or something and absolutely nothing else. Does not getting a cutscene make your fake video game relationshio somehow more fake? Does it make my fake in game relationship less fake because I got a cutscene?

[Miss Marigold]

 

That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.

 

To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one.

 

Understood! Just to be clear, I was not attempting to single out anyone with that post. I was just trying to explain why many people will not find it to be a satisfactory solution.

[Reppu]

 

That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.

 

To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one.

 

Understood! Just to be clear, I was not attempting to single out anyone with that post. I was just trying to explain why many people will not find it to be a satisfactory solution.

 

Of course. As I said, I am trying to avoid enemies here, especially on Balmung. I do not have to agree with what is being said, but I am not trying to adamantly offend anyone for stating my thoughts or opinions in open debate.

 

Again, thoughtcrimes must end.

[Miss Marigold]

The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category

So... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description?

 

Forgive my bluntness, I cannot believe that an honest and intelligent person would need this to be explained to them. Please think this over and ask again if you're unable to work it out for yourself.

[Havoc Snow]

The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category

So... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description?

 

Forgive my bluntness, I cannot believe that an honest and intelligent person would need this to be explained to them. Please think this over and ask again if you're unable to work it out for yourself.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how them implementing a system into the game that most likely will not offer any benefit and will probably only be used by a fraction of the player base as being irrationally prejudicial or  lumping people into an arbitrary category.

 

The only different between civil unions and marriage are primarily legal BS. No one in Eorzea is going to tell you that you can't be put on your partners insurance because you didn't use the official marriage system.

[Miss Marigold]

I'm sorry, I just don't see how them implementing a system into the game that most likely will not offer any benefit and will probably only be used by a fraction of the player base as being irrationally prejudicial or  lumping people into an arbitrary category.

 

The benefit offered is irrelevant to deciding whether or not it's discrimination. A candy shop that disallows black people is just as discriminatory as a hospital that disallows black people: The only difference is in the effects of their respective acts of discrimination.

 

As for why this is lumping people into an arbitrary category, disallowing people from using the marriage feature because their characters are the same gender is, well… entirely arbitrary. The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world.

 

Note that whether or not Square-Enix needs to do this from a business or ratings standpoint has no effect on whether or not it is discriminatory. A shop in the early 1900s that only serviced white customers because servicing black customers would have hurt their business was just as discriminatory as one that did so out of the owner's hatred. There may be a difference in moral culpability, but there's no question that the discrimination applied is identical.

[Reppu]

I'm sorry, I just don't see how them implementing a system into the game that most likely will not offer any benefit and will probably only be used by a fraction of the player base as being irrationally prejudicial or  lumping people into an arbitrary category.

 

The benefit offered is irrelevant to deciding whether or not it's discrimination. A candy shop that disallows black people is just as discriminatory as a hospital that disallows black people: The only difference is in the effects of their respective acts of discrimination.

 

As for why this is lumping people into an arbitrary category, disallowing people from using the marriage feature because their characters are the same gender is, well… entirely arbitrary. The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world.

 

Note that whether or not Square-Enix needs to do this from a business or ratings standpoint has no effect on whether or not it is discriminatory. A shop in the early 1900s that only serviced white customers because servicing black customers would have hurt their business was just as discriminatory as one that did so out of the owner's hatred. There may be a difference in moral culpability, but there's no question that the discrimination applied is identical.

 

Now, now. While this is all very true, the fact of the matter is, there is no confirmation of it being disallowed or allowed yet. And I know this is frustrating. But the fact remains that the issue is being looked at, which is to show progress in the discrimination being slowly, but surely, eliminated.

 

You can't expect a giant leap. So long as we accept that, while pushing for change, means we'll be more likely seen as the reasonable sect, righteous victims of prejudice. But when we push and shove and belittle and berate, are we any better?

 

Not saying you're doing this! But there's a time for a firm shove, and more often a time for a gentle touch. We've made progress.

[Miss Marigold]

The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world.

 

Now, now. While this is all very true, the fact of the matter is, there is no confirmation of it being disallowed or allowed yet.

 

I know! That's why I said "may disallow".

 

Don't worry, I'm not upset over this. You don't need to coddle me! *smiles*

[Reppu]

The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world.

 

Now, now. While this is all very true, the fact of the matter is, there is no confirmation of it being disallowed or allowed yet.

 

I know! That's why I said "may disallow".

 

Don't worry, I'm not upset over this. You don't need to coddle me! *smiles*

 

I like to employ caution in the face of the unknown, least my face be devoured by badgers. But, I am glad you're very mild-mannered and reasonable!

[Myxie Tryxle]

Reading over this thread for the last few hours, I've noticed two points of view that seem to be leading to the conflict in this thread. I'll describe the first as rational (with varying degrees of sympathy) and the second as emotional (but not necessarily irrational).

 

I'll start with the rational, as that's the camp I identify myself with. While at first glance, it may seem like this is a single straw, for someone who has experienced and gathered a lifetime worth of straw, one more straw is one straw too many. The LGBT community suffers harassment, intolerance, discrimination, and abuse - potentially on a daily basis. The people you're arguing with may have been cast out by family and friends or suffered death threats when they revealed their orientation. Consider how you might feel if you experienced a lifetime of discrimination, heartache, and fear just for being who you are. As an American, I live in a country where high school students will bully their peers to the point of committing suicide to escape the harassment. Walk a mile in their shoes and consider why they may feel so strongly about this issue before writing off their emotions.

 

For the emotional, please understand that the rationals (myself included) may not have a basis to understand the depth of your feelings in this argument. I've never experienced discrimination in my life, but I nonetheless despise inequality and unfairness. The immediate response from the rational point of view is that this is a problem, an intellectual exercise in need of a game plan. While it can come across as insensitive to a person for whom this debate represents their life and not just an intellectual exercise, the goal of the rational approach is the same - to find a solution that supports equality. We're on your side, even if our arguments appear dispassionate.

 

As for Square Enix's role in all this, I think it will help to consider their structure and their motives. Giant, multi-national corporations operate in terms of black and red, not black and white. Nike, Apple, Walmart, Square Enix, etc. are going to base their decisions on what is most profitable. Based on what I've read from the dev team, it sounds like they're supportive and open to this discussion. They may be fighting an uphill battle in which they have to convince some combination of the CEO, CFO, VP of marketing, board of directors, and/or shareholders that allowing gay marriages in the game won't hurt the bottom line.

 

I think the opportunity is here for us to make a difference. I think the dev team is on our side in this debate. And I think that if we can present a united effort that yields a combined rational and passionate argument, we can sway whoever it is at Square Enix that is sitting on the fence. Everyone deserves equal privileges in the game, and I'll gladly stand by the LBGT community in seeking equality.

 

Personally, I would be saddened if we lost players over this. My gaming group since I moved to California in 2007 has included at least three bisexuals and one gay man. All of them are good people, undeserving of discrimination, who bring interesting variety to my life and my gaming experiences. Even if Square Enix doesn't support this, I think it's important that we as a community do. Ultimately, if the corporation supports it, that decision will come down to dollars and cents. It's the hearts and minds of the players that will really define the importance of this issue, and that's why you'll have my full support.

[Disglair]

Aw gosh, more heated debates. These always make me feel uncomfortable. Well, my two cents is this:

 

It's discrimination. It may seem petty given that we're discussing fake marriage in a video game, but that doesn't change the fact that it's discrimination.

 

The best way that I can convey my feelings is to say to pretend like this game is coming out in 1950 and they aren't going to allow characters outside of certain skin tone ranges to marry. Sure, it seems absolutely silly right now... but sixty years ago? What if the developer did it so they wouldn't offend American traditions back then? 

 

That said! I really hope they implement it. I'm not a VIP member of the LGBT community (ehehe) but it'd be a small step forward for us all!

 

Also I really like everything Myxie Tryxle said. :love:

[Reppu]

Aw gosh, more heated debates. These always make me feel uncomfortable. Well, my two cents is this:

 

It's discrimination. It may seem petty given that we're discussing fake marriage in a video game, but that doesn't change the fact that it's discrimination.

 

The best way that I can convey my feelings is to say to pretend like this game is coming out in 1950 and they aren't going to allow characters outside of certain skin tone ranges to marry. Sure, it seems absolutely silly right now... but sixty years ago? What if the developer did it so they wouldn't offend American traditions back then? 

 

That said! I really hope they implement it. I'm not a VIP member of the LGBT community (ehehe) but it'd be a small step forward for us all!

 

Also I really like everything Myxie Tryxle said. :love:

 

I'd stress that, at this time? SquareEnix is not guilty of discrimination in FFXIV. If, by November or what have you, gay marriage is not included in the marriage mechanic? Then by all means.

 

But, for now, all SquareEnix is guilty of is... considering it?

---

Reading over this thread for the last few hours, I've noticed two points of view that seem to be leading to the conflict in this thread.  I'll describe the first as rational (with varying degrees of sympathy) and the second as emotional (but not necessarily irrational).

 

I'll start with the rational, as that's the camp I identify myself with.  While at first glance, it may seem like this is a single straw, for someone who has experienced and gathered a lifetime worth of straw, one more straw is one straw too many.  The LGBT community suffers harassment, intolerance, discrimination, and abuse - potentially on a daily basis.  The people you're arguing with may have been cast out by family and friends or suffered death threats when they revealed their orientation.  Consider how you might feel if you experienced a lifetime of discrimination, heartache, and fear just for being who you are.  As an American, I live in a country where high school students will bully their peers to the point of committing suicide to escape the harassment.  Walk a mile in their shoes and consider why they may feel so strongly about this issue before writing off their emotions.

 

For the emotional, please understand that the rationals (myself included) may not have a basis to understand the depth of your feelings in this argument.  I've never experienced discrimination in my life, but I nonetheless despise inequality and unfairness.  The immediate response from the rational point of view is that this is a problem, an intellectual exercise in need of a game plan.  While it can come across as insensitive to a person for whom this debate represents their life and not just an intellectual exercise, the goal of the rational approach is the same - to find a solution that supports equality.  We're on your side, even if our arguments appear dispassionate.

 

As for Square Enix's role in all this, I think it will help to consider their structure and their motives.  Giant, multi-national corporations operate in terms of black and red, not black and white.  Nike, Apple, Walmart, Square Enix, etc. are going to base their decisions on what is most profitable.  Based on what I've read from the dev team, it sounds like they're supportive and open to this discussion.  They may be fighting an uphill battle in which they have to convince some combination of the CEO, CFO, VP of marketing, board of directors, and/or shareholders that allowing gay marriages in the game won't hurt the bottom line.

 

I think the opportunity is here for us to make a difference.  I think the dev team is on our side in this debate.  And I think that if we can present a united effort that yields a combined rational and passionate argument, we can sway whoever it is at Square Enix that is sitting on the fence.  Everyone deserves equal privileges in the game, and I'll gladly stand by the LBGT community in seeking equality.

 

Personally, I would be saddened if we lost players over this.  My gaming group since I moved to California in 2007 has included at least three bisexuals and one gay man.  All of them are good people, undeserving of discrimination, who bring interesting variety to my life and my gaming experiences.  Even if Square Enix doesn't support this, I think it's important that we as a community do.  Ultimately, if the corporation supports it, that decision will come down to dollars and cents.  It's the hearts and minds of the players that will really define the importance of this issue, and that's why you'll have my full support.

 

I would note that mostly everyone has suffered some form of discrimination, if not directly the anti-gay kind. But, discrimination is the same no matter what form it comes in.

 

As a result, I actually understand and have experienced many forms of discrimination, including this topic as a whole. I consider myself both emotionally invested, and rationally inclined.

[Disglair]

 

I'd stress that, at this time? SquareEnix is not guilty of discrimination in FFXIV. If, by November or what have you, gay marriage is not included in the marriage mechanic? Then by all means.

 

But, for now, all SquareEnix is guilty of is... considering it?

 

Oh, well, of course! If they're going to include same sex marriages then this entire debate is pointless and they're not discriminating. I thought that was sort of obvious though lol.

[Reppu]

 

I'd stress that, at this time? SquareEnix is not guilty of discrimination in FFXIV. If, by November or what have you, gay marriage is not included in the marriage mechanic? Then by all means.

 

But, for now, all SquareEnix is guilty of is... considering it?

 

Oh, well, of course! If they're going to include same sex marriages then this entire debate is pointless and they're not discriminating. I thought that was sort of obvious though lol.

 

You'd, uh, be surprised that this entire thing is about the 'what if', really. The levels of emotion flaring simply on a potential 'what if'.

 

I'm kind of afraid of what'll happen when 2.1 comes around, and gay marriage is not implemented.

[Disglair]

 

You'd, uh, be surprised that this entire thing is about the 'what if', really. The levels of emotion flaring simply on a potential 'what if'.

 

I'm kind of afraid of what'll happen when 2.1 comes around, and gay marriage is not implemented.

 

Hum, well. I can definitely see how making people wait is...hm. Frustrating. And I suppose that every good cause needs people who want to see it done right now.

 

Reminds me of when your boss sets goals above their level of expectation so that employees will actually try and reach those levels.

 

So! I see nothing wrong with lighting the fire beneath SE's tail a bit to get them moving along. It may seem insensitive to cultural traditions, but it isn't like we're discussing dinner ceremony or fashion trends lol! It's change that the entire world should strive to see.

[Reppu]

Hum, well. I can definitely see how making people wait is...hm. Frustrating. And I suppose that every good cause needs people who want to see it done right now.

 

Reminds me of when your boss sets goals above their level of expectation so that employees will actually try and reach those levels.

 

So! I see nothing wrong with lighting the fire beneath SE's tail a bit to get them moving along. It may seem insensitive to cultural traditions, but it isn't like we're discussing dinner ceremony or fashion trends lol! It's change that the entire world should strive to see.

 

Of course! But too much fire burns, so you have to be both firm, and gentle.

[Havoc Snow]

To my knowledge SE is not making anyone wait. They stated that the marriage system will be implemented with opposite sex marriage only, so we know for certain that when it is added that is how it's going to be. Yoshida said that after it is added they would consider feedback and what not from the players and might add in same sex marriage at a later time.

 

So in short, same sex marriage will be the only option when the system is added into the game. Any feedback given before then will most likely fall on deaf ears since they've got other things lined up before then.

[Reppu]

To my knowledge SE is not making anyone wait. They stated that the marriage system will be implemented with opposite sex marriage only, so we know for certain that when it is added that is how it's going to be. Yoshida said that after it is added they would consider feedback and what not from the players and might add in same sex marriage at a later time.

 

So in short, same sex marriage will be the only option when the system is added into the game. Any feedback given before then will most likely fall on deaf ears since they've got other things lined up before then.

 

To be specific, the plan is, as stated, to implement with opposite sex marriage only. Any plans for further implementation are subject to debate within SquareEnix. As there are quite a few months into 2.1, it is a realistic prospect both versions would be allowed.

 

But, you are correct. As the plan is set, it's opposite sex only. Thus why putting pressure is fine, but Yoshida has noted it is being looked into, so strong-arming is not required.

[Disglair]

To my knowledge SE is not making anyone wait. They stated that the marriage system will be implemented with opposite sex marriage only, so we know for certain that when it is added that is how it's going to be. Yoshida said that after it is added they would consider feedback and what not from the players and might add in same sex marriage at a later time.

 

So in short, same sex marriage will be the only option when the system is added into the game. Any feedback given before then will most likely fall on deaf ears since they've got other things lined up before then.

 

That's definitely not cool. I'm all for raising a bit of ruckus then. People rarely listen to calm and collected when it comes to stuff like this. And even if they did, it still doesn't mean people shouldn't get super upset over this. Extremes are (unfortunately) often a necessity. Either by screaming and yelling and pitching a fit or by putting your money where your mouth is and hitting em where it hurts the most: their wallet.

[Havoc Snow]

I'm trying to find the actual quote, I thought it was in the last live letter but I only see one mention of the marriage system so I guess not. I'm pretty sure he says something like "we'll look into it after it has been implemented" or something along those lines regarding same sex marriage, so I'm merely trying to create realistic expectations not to expect anything to change from now until it is released. They seem pretty set on releasing the system "as is" and making any changes later on if the community is vocal enough about it. From my experience on the beta forums however, calm and articulated threads are far more likely to get a dev response while rage filled shouting threads usually get ignored or locked.