Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

[shotgunbadger]

And all I'M saying is I'm sick to hell of any LGBT topic ever going:

 

Most all LGBT people involved just go 'man this sucks' => One or two people takes things a bit further => Straight people come in all "WOAH HOMOS CALM THE HELL DOWN LET'S BE RATIONAL HERE DON'T YOU KNOW NO ONE GIVES A CRAP UNLESS YOU BEHAVE?"

 

I am not straight and I advocate rationality. It's like when you have to deal with your in-laws. Kill them with calmness and kindness and you have a chance to get them to hate you less. If you scream and shout and sling curses at them, you come out validating their poor view of you.

 

I think if we showed them how this could only better the community and were vigilant abut sending the message, making a large voice, we could get through. This screaming ,shouting, and insulting each other isn't going anywhere.

 

My point is we already ARE being rational, we don't need to be told to be like we're a bunch of children. Just because you saw someone make more than one thread about something doesn't mean every gay in FFXIV is kicking and screaming. It's patronizing.

[Dubs]

 

All I'm saying is if you actually, you know, want to accomplish anything it's better to come at this in a unified manner where you'll get the most localized support, though clearly from the responses I've seen from many of the people in this thread, even towards people who share in this disdain of the situation, many of you would rather just rage about it than actually make a difference.

 

I agree. If people plan to RP it regardless if the mechanic is implemented what's the point in taking people out of context, pointing fingers, inserting assumptions that lead to hyperbole and ad hominem just to fit the same narrative over and over. It's a broken record. It's just more deconstructive regurgitation of moot points. In the end if you don't like it, don't spend your money. At the same time if you want people to be sympathetic to your cause, lambasting them with insinuations and shaming labels that haven't experienced the intolerance isn't going to do anything to sway them, it's going to turn them off.

[Domri Blackblade]

And all I'M saying is I'm sick to hell of any LGBT topic ever going:

 

Most all LGBT people involved just go 'man this sucks' => One or two people takes things a bit further => Straight people come in all "WOAH HOMOS CALM THE HELL DOWN LET'S BE RATIONAL HERE DON'T YOU KNOW NO ONE GIVES A CRAP UNLESS YOU BEHAVE?"

 

I am not straight and I advocate rationality. It's like when you have to deal with your in-laws. Kill them with calmness and kindness and you have a chance to get them to hate you less. If you scream and shout and sling curses at them, you come out validating their poor view of you.

 

I think if we showed them how this could only better the community and were vigilant abut sending the message, making a large voice, we could get through. This screaming ,shouting, and insulting each other isn't going anywhere.

 

My point is we already ARE being rational, we don't need to be told to be like we're a bunch of children. Just because you saw someone make more than one thread about something doesn't mean every gay in FFXIV is kicking and screaming. It's patronizing.

 

No one was ever making that point, though. I'm pretty sure every time it came up, in this thread at least, it was in response to swearing, yelling, and being rude.

[Merri]

Please, please be civil. While I understand this is a very passionate subject for people, this isn't the place for fighting. Please respect each other, regardless of whether or not you agree with each other.

[Reppu]

If we're 'respecting Japanese norms' I expect everyone with a female toon will stick to crafting jobs (preferably just cooking) or I GUESS magic as long as it's not too intense and manly too?

 

Really, you need to be civil, as other people are stating. This sort of hyperbole is what we're trying to prevent.

 

Or, stereotyping is ludicrous and hypocritical at this juncture. Please.

[shotgunbadger]

If we're 'respecting Japanese norms' I expect everyone with a female toon will stick to crafting jobs (preferably just cooking) or I GUESS magic as long as it's not too intense and manly too?

 

Really, you need to be civil, as other people are stating. This sort of hyperbole is what we're trying to prevent.

 

Or, stereotyping is ludicrous and hypocritical at this juncture. Please.

 

If one of the arguments is already basically a sterotype of 'well it's Japanese culture' then fine, let's apply that to everything instead of just us.

[Domri Blackblade]

If we're 'respecting Japanese norms' I expect everyone with a female toon will stick to crafting jobs (preferably just cooking) or I GUESS magic as long as it's not too intense and manly too?

 

Really, you need to be civil, as other people are stating. This sort of hyperbole is what we're trying to prevent.

 

Or, stereotyping is ludicrous and hypocritical at this juncture. Please.

 

If one of the arguments is already basically a sterotype of 'well it's Japanese culture' then fine, let's apply that to everything instead of just us.

 

That is not what 'recognize their viewpoint' means. How can you hope to change their mind if you cannot even understand where they are coming from?

 

First, you need to step back, take a breath, and look at it objectively. Then when you go make your argument, you bring up the points that might be holding them back, and make a rebuttal as to why the positives outweigh the negatives.

[Reppu]

If we're 'respecting Japanese norms' I expect everyone with a female toon will stick to crafting jobs (preferably just cooking) or I GUESS magic as long as it's not too intense and manly too?

 

Really, you need to be civil, as other people are stating. This sort of hyperbole is what we're trying to prevent.

 

Or, stereotyping is ludicrous and hypocritical at this juncture. Please.

 

If one of the arguments is already basically a sterotype of 'well it's Japanese culture' then fine, let's apply that to everything instead of just us.

 

Or, it's a case of 'We understand why they aren't immediately embracing it, due to their culture'.

 

Stop painting everything as extremes like others have done so. It's not helping anyone.

 

No one is in the wrong here, at the end of the day. No wrong has been committed yet. All of this is speculation. Is it likely SquareEnix will deny gay marriage in FFXIV? Unfortunately, yes.

 

But until that 'wrong' has been committed, preemptive strikes are uncalled for. Proclamation and a firm stance is justified, but attacks are NEVER the answer.

[Colyer]

And all I'M saying is I'm sick to hell of any LGBT topic ever going:

 

Most all LGBT people involved just go 'man this sucks' => One or two people takes things a bit further => Straight people come in all "WOAH HOMOS CALM THE HELL DOWN LET'S BE RATIONAL HERE DON'T YOU KNOW NO ONE GIVES A CRAP UNLESS YOU BEHAVE?"

 

I am not straight and I advocate rationality. It's like when you have to deal with your in-laws. Kill them with calmness and kindness and you have a chance to get them to hate you less. If you scream and shout and sling curses at them, you come out validating their poor view of you.

 

I think if we showed them how this could only better the community and were vigilant abut sending the message, making a large voice, we could get through. This screaming ,shouting, and insulting each other isn't going anywhere.

 

My point is we already ARE being rational, we don't need to be told to be like we're a bunch of children. Just because you saw someone make more than one thread about something doesn't mean every gay in FFXIV is kicking and screaming. It's patronizing.

 

Except he has a point. The arguments can become stale and repetitive to the point where it looses it's impact.

 

Going to use SWTOR as an example, as I said before ultimately I was a bit disappointed in not being able to flirt with Corso - but even before I reach that point, that when I would go on the forums I would let out a groan at the thread and move on. Why because it became the same old "when are you adding it?,"I want it", "Come on add it", etc over and over and over.  

 

It became a consent drone that I eventually just stop thinking about at all. 

 

It's not about being patronizing or putting people in their place. Its just warning of the very real possibility of over-playing it.

[Zizirimu Yayarimu]

Hey all... I am sorry but I didn't read all the responses because this thread is so long, so if I will go over some stuff in my post that was said earlier, please forgive me and maybe point me to the right page of this thread. I will read more of it after I post, promise. 

 

 

 

I am not really going to argue about OOC here. I will simply state I am for gay marriage IRL. SE's reasons for not including it in the game don't interest me. No arguing on this forum will change their mind, they wont read this and go a different route.

 

I am thinking about the RP implications of this. Does it mean that there is only straight marriage in Eorzean culture/society as well? After all, isn't the devs word usually followed above player lore? (This is murky to me because I am semi new to RP so correct me if I am wrong.)

 

If that's the case, are homosexual marriages and openly gay relationships breaking lore?

[Reppu]

Hey all... I am sorry but I didn't read all the responses because this thread is so long, so if I will go over some stuff in my post that was said earlier, please forgive me and maybe point me to the right page of this thread. I will read more of it after I post, promise. 

 

 

 

I am not really going to argue about OOC here. I will simply state I am for gay marriage IRL. SE's reasons for not including it in the game don't interest me. No arguing on this forum will change their mind, they wont read this and go a different route.

 

I am thinking about the RP implications of this. Does it mean that there is only straight marriage in Eorzean culture/society as well? After all, isn't the devs word usually followed above player lore? (This is murky to me because I am semi new to RP so correct me if I am wrong.)

 

If that's the case, are homosexual marriages and openly gay relationships breaking lore?

 

Supposedly there's an old post by one of the story devs that says homosexual relationships are accepted in Eorzea. This is mildly conflicting with the marriage aspect, but...

 

My view is like this; If that post exists? Then gay marriage is also accepted, just real life sort of conflicts with canon in this case. Sadly, not everyone can keep OOC out of IC, you know?

 

Otherwise, it may just be a newly budding and steadily acceptable thing if there is no official word on it. Either way, I doubt you're breaking lore for being gay. And I doubt anyone would care if you RP'd a wedding if the 'official thing' is never given.

 

Don't worry about breaking lore, unless there's some sort of... gay pride rally busting quest or something silly.

[Zizirimu Yayarimu]

Oooh I'd like to see that dev post! Though I am still worried that if we are going to pick and chose what is OOC influenced and what isn't... we might be going down a dark road.

 

For example I am sure they don't want to be called sexist, thus men and women can do everything equally in-game. But then someone can go and say "hey, things are equal only because of OOC pressure. The lower class women would probably not be able to enjoy as many freedoms..." etc etc.

 

See where I am going with this? I feel like maybe it's best to just stick to what they give us for the sake of consistency. It's their game after all, and the best thing to do if one cannot play by the rules (lore) is to simply not play it.

[Reppu]

Oooh I'd like to see that dev post! Though I am still worried that if we are going to pick and chose what is OOC influenced and what isn't... we might be going down a dark road.

 

For example I am sure they don't want to be called sexist, thus men and women can do everything equally in-game. But then someone can go and say "hey, things are equal only because of OOC pressure. The lower class women would probably not be able to enjoy as many freedoms..." etc etc.

 

See where I am going with this? I feel like maybe it's best to just stick to what they give us for the sake of consistency. It's their game after all, and the best thing to do if one cannot play by the rules (lore) is to simply not play it.

 

If there is no post For or Against it, then shrug. All we know is, at things stand right now, only gay marriage is not allowed.

 

For now.

 

Or straight marriage.

 

Cause it's not implemented.

[Zizirimu Yayarimu]

hahaha yes, I'd be pretty happy with a completely unique take on partnership myself. Why marriage at all, if you've got a fantasy playground to create in? But we are talking about the announcement of straight only marriage.

[Reppu]

hahaha yes, I'd be pretty happy with a completely unique take on partnership myself. Why marriage at all, if you've got a fantasy playground to create in? But we are talking about the announcement of straight only marriage.

 

Well, let's be a bit more broad in our view; Just because gay marriage is not allowed, does not mean gay unions of other types are. Much like the real world today.

 

BASICALLY, you're not breaking lore, either way. Just maybe The Twelve don't care much for guy on guy or girl on girl?

 

Eh, doubtful. Just... don't worry about it so much. Most people don't care about gay roleplaying so long as it's tasteful, respectful, and ultimately wholesome.

 

Don't, you know, go at it on a bar table. ANY sexuality, don't do this!

[Zizirimu Yayarimu]

I am not worried per se... simply wish to know as much as I can about the lore. How would my character look at a same sex couple for example. Would it be taboo or not? Would it be dangerous to display affection toward the same gender in public? I am not sure the marriage (or lack there of) answers this either way but they are points of interest.

[Reppu]

I am not worried per se... simply wish to know as much as I can about the lore. How would my character look at a same sex couple for example. Would it be taboo or not? Would it be dangerous to display affection toward the same gender in public? I am not sure the marriage (or lack there of) answers this either way but they are points of interest.

 

Extremely doubtful.

[Colyer]

Oooh I'd like to see that dev post! Though I am still worried that if we are going to pick and chose what is OOC influenced and what isn't... we might be going down a dark road.

 

For example I am sure they don't want to be called sexist, thus men and women can do everything equally in-game. But then someone can go and say "hey, things are equal only because of OOC pressure. The lower class women would probably not be able to enjoy as many freedoms..." etc etc.

 

See where I am going with this? I feel like maybe it's best to just stick to what they give us for the sake of consistency. It's their game after all, and the best thing to do if one cannot play by the rules (lore) is to simply not play it.

 

But there is a difference between "someone" and a Developer. If the developers designed a race to have such a culture and show cases that in the game, while allowing players to be the exception then the lore would be that the vast majority of women of that particular race are treated as such. If 90% of the players of that race rolled a female characters so what - the player population numbers would not be canon.  

 

The idea that gameplay =/= lore is not a new concept, you can find examples in every MMO. Whether it is lore being left out due to limitations or circumstances or non-lore things added in because it is fun little thing that people enjoy. 

 

Just because lore is state in an outside medium from the game, does not discount its validity.

[Adelpha]

How would my character look at a same sex couple for example. Would it be taboo or not? Would it be dangerous to display affection toward the same gender in public?

I don't think so. Otherwise, a whoooooole lot of Miqo'te players from 1.0 are going to have to retcon some stuff! 

[Zizirimu Yayarimu]

Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.

 

I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.

 

Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.

[Adelpha]

Don't worry about it, it was just a lighthearted joke in an attempt to bring some levity to this thread.

[Reppu]

Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.

 

I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.

 

Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.

 

Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time...

 

"I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.'

 

That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far.

 

-

 

Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"?

[Naunet]

Is there a problem in waiting, while keeping the issue known? I, for one, think not.

 

Okay, buddy, you seriously need to stop mischaracterizing the argument being made by those of us pressuring Squee for marriage equality in-game.

 

Please note: No one is demanding that Squeenix implement marriage right now immediately ASAP BLARGH!

 

So stop using that in your argument. Just stop. You're trying to redirect the conversation to a point that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument originally presented (and the one that we are pressuring Squeenix on).

---

It's almost telling, really.

 

Your condescension is horrifically unnecessary.

[synaesthetic]

Hey, hey, guys?

 

This calmly sitting around and protesting in a meek tone while sipping tea? That shit doesn't work. It just doesn't.

 

Remember when the XBOX One was announced with all those restrictions? No used games, always-on internet connection, all that stuff?

 

Yeah. You know now the xbone doesn't have any of those restrictions anymore, right?

 

You know how they got removed? Not by fucking being calm and polite!

[Naunet]

So... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description? For all we know all the marriage system does is give you a quest that ends in some kind of cutscene or something and absolutely nothing else. Does not getting a cutscene make your fake video game relationshio somehow more fake? Does it make my fake in game relationship less fake because I got a cutscene?

 

That's not the point. No one should be excluded from content - and it is hard-line exclusion, not just "Oh, I can't raid because it's too difficult/time consuming." I don't really appreciate your "What does it matter?" attitude, because clearly it does matter to a lot of us, which makes your posts largely irrelevant and mostly just inciting negative reactions.

 

I don't care when marriage gets implemented (I honestly wouldn't care even if they ended up not implementing it), but whenever it does hit the game, I absolutely expect them to implement it so that it is accessible to everyone, not just those who want to get married in a straight pairing.

 

And you know, this doesn't only affect non-straight players - it affects everyone. Real life couples who want to get married in-game using the marriage system but can't because they both chose to play male characters, or both play female characters. Regardless of their real life sexuality. So not only would gender restrictions be Squeenix-endorsed discrimination, but it would unfairly exclude a lot of other people from an aspect of the game (which, while fluff, is still very much a part of the game, and no one should ever be excluded from any part of the game).