End Game: Are Dragoons Good For Anything?

[Kieron Lohengrin]

[Ilwe'ran]

Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

 

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

 

Have a look yourself :

- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef

- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

 

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

[Anstarra]

Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

 

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

 

Have a look yourself :

- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef

- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

 

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

 

Haha, never really noticed this.

 

I guess the simple answer is, we're not tanks. It's our DPS stats that matter, not Defense scores. A high defense is good when solo leveling, sure, but not so good once you're in endgame ;3 In fact, if it's anything like other games with gear value itemization, points sent toward defense (and vitality, but you can't avoid that) would be considered a waste because they don't increase your DPS. In the end, DRG is a DPS class.

[Dravus]

All I'll say is that the class isn't for everyone. I won't say that they're exceptionally difficult to play decently but you certainly need to pay attention and react rather swiftly to avoid being killed. That's something that makes the class very enjoyable in my eyes, but for other players I suspect that it makes for quite a bit of frustration!

 

There's exceptions but generally in every MMO it's easier to play a ranged combatant as you tend to be more room for error and typically have less mechanics to worry about when fighting a boss. Positioning doesn't tend to be a huge factor either.

 

I guess I'm just repeating what has already been brought up already, though as someone who adores how the class plays I figured I'd add my two gil to the discussion!

[Ilwe'ran]

Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

 

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

 

Have a look yourself :

- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef

- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

 

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

 

Haha, never really noticed this.

 

I guess the simple answer is, we're not tanks. It's our DPS stats that matter, not Defense scores. A high defense is good when solo leveling, sure, but not so good once you're in endgame ;3 In fact, if it's anything like other games with gear value itemization, points sent toward defense (and vitality, but you can't avoid that) would be considered a waste because they don't increase your DPS. In the end, DRG is a DPS class.

 

That doesn't explain why they suddenly lower that much your armor. As far as I know, they don't do that for any other class. It's not logical. And you can check those items stats yourself, they are definitly done for DPS (those armors I show are the DRG armor you have up to lv 47).

And if we weren't fitting at all for tanking, why giving Skull Sunder to DRG which is an aggro skill ? Why, on a side, giving you a stuff and a skill that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then suddenly drastically lower your defense ?

[Anstarra]

Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

 

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

 

Have a look yourself :

- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef

- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

 

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

 

Haha, never really noticed this.

 

I guess the simple answer is, we're not tanks. It's our DPS stats that matter, not Defense scores. A high defense is good when solo leveling, sure, but not so good once you're in endgame ;3 In fact, if it's anything like other games with gear value itemization, points sent toward defense (and vitality, but you can't avoid that) would be considered a waste because they don't increase your DPS. In the end, DRG is a DPS class.

 

That doesn't explain why they suddenly lower that much your armor. As far as I know, they don't do that for any other class. It's not logical. And you can check those items stats yourself, they are definitly done for DPS (those armors I show are the DRG armor you have up to lv 47).

And if we weren't fitting at all for tanking, why giving Skull Sunder to DRG which is an aggro skill ? Why, on a side, giving you a stuff and a skill that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then suddenly drastically lower your defense ?

 

Heh. Skull Sunder isn't a Dragoon skill. It's a MRD cross-class skill. It's meant for Paladins to take, if anyone, since they also get MRD skills as cross, and the cross skills aren't class-specific to other classes. As a Dragoon, you should never take Skull Sunder among your skills, unless you're doing something quirky like an all-Dragoon WP (which I've seen done ;D).

 

I can't answer for other gear though! The best explanation I have is that the Scale gear fills a weird niche that doesn't exist in end-game: hybrid tank armor. Leveling up, it's the stuff that only Tanks and DRG/LNC can wear, making DRG/LNC more tanky by having it. But there's no such set at end-game, because our role is refined into a DPS-only slot, not a hybrid. Mainly because hybrid is utterly useless and gimp if you're planning on forming a party. No one wants a tank who isn't 100% tank, or a DPS who isn't 100% DPS.

 

Despite it all, Dragoons, having access to defensive CDs from MRD as well as Skull Sunder, could fake being tanks in very specific instances, especially if over-geared. I've tanked the final stretch, including last boss, of WP. I've tanked Titan HM (though that was more of an accident and relied on my having been top threat and not on any tank skills chosen, I was full DPS) in the last phase for a few minutes until the tank could be safely brought back up. DRGs have this weird versatility, which can be had fun with, even if it's not actually viable for 'normal' use.

 

Maybe once upon a time S-E imagined Dragoons as being more hybrid than just DPS, which would explain the MRD cross-skills. Either way, I still use Fracture, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke, in mine. But not Skull Sunder, nor typically even Foresight (my other two are Internal Release and Second Wind, since it's based on attack power). The only time a DRG would theoretically end up tanking anything, even momentarily, would be if someone else screwed up =b

[Ilwe'ran]

 

Kieron answered, in a way, to what you said with this video with a DRG tanking Titan HM. He's using Skull Sunder all along to be able to (cross skill or not, you can access to an aggro skill which is interesting to notice).

 

Also, I have to add that beside those scale gear, you also have the possibility to wear haubergeons (like this one) that have the same balance def/mdef stats as AF and further.

 

And I did compare the lv 46/47 set's stats to the AF1 (which is suppose to be close, ilvl wise) and this is the result :

 

 

STR & VIT are capped and I think you can compensate the other stats with the 25 materia slots. You will also notice that the scale stats are all DPS stats, none of them are tank.

That's why I thought that it was ultra weird to be in a situation that allow you to have a really nice gear and some nice DPS stats (if you have HQ items + materia) and suddenly being ultra weak when you try on your AF1.

 

 

 

I'm just trying to understand here what happened inside the dev head when they created scales armors or decided to not create armors with the same kind of stats after the lv 47. I had a look on the official board and I found nothing about that (maybe I didn't looked there properly, it's not that easy to search sometimes ^^ ), I'm really curious about that topic because never in a game I saw this kind of situation.

 

Even if you think that it could be a weird niche, that could explain how was though DRG role in the first place and maybe be a track to answer to your questions about "how DRG are suppose to be good in" . Maybe DRG were thought as off tank, able to handle some damages, keeping aggro with some cross skill, having some defensive buff (cross or not) and all. Maybe we could have some answers by looking at how were DRG on the first release of Final Fantasy XIV (and maybe even XI).

 

Also be sure that there is no hate on my messages, I'm a lv 46 DRG with a nice scale gear that don't understand the interest of wearing his AF1 gear that would drastically lower his stats for giving a really few bonus.

[LiadansWhisper]

Prior to 50, DRG gear is shared with PLD and WAR.  That is why it has so much more defense and magic def.  Once you hit your AF gear (and it's AF, not AF+1...AF+1 is the Myth gear  ), the gear is tailored specifically to your spec and role.  DPS shouldn't need high amounts of Defense and Magic Def, so those are far lower priority than actual stats that help a DRG do more DPS.

[Ildur]

Actually, Dragoon gear prior to 50 is somewhere between tanking classes and monks (no idea how it gets in endgame because I'm a silly non-endgamer). There are quite a few armors that have the "PLD WAR DRG" restriction, but Paladins and Warriors can always get their own unshared gear that has more protection. I think the only times they absolutely share equipment are at the beginning of the game and at level 27, where the most protective non-dungeon armor is scale armor that can be used by lancers but not pugilists or bards.

[Dravus]

On one hand I really like the ability to be able to soak up a bit of damage as a dragoon and potentially save the group a wipe by tanking an out of control add or keeping a boss busy if the real tank is killed. Just yesterday I ran Dzemael Darkhold and managed to tank the boss for the twenty or so seconds needed to finish it off after the actual tank died.

 

On the other hand, though, I can totally understand where people are coming from when they say they don't really need to be able to tank properly. I'd hate to see a scenario similar to certain classes in MMO's such as WoW where certain classes can do everything to a ridiculous state of efficiency.

[Ilwe'ran]

Prior to 50, DRG gear is shared with PLD and WAR.  That is why it has so much more defense and magic def.  Once you hit your AF gear (and it's AF, not AF+1...AF+1 is the Myth gear  ), the gear is tailored specifically to your spec and role.  DPS shouldn't need high amounts of Defense and Magic Def, so those are far lower priority than actual stats that help a DRG do more DPS.

 

Prior lv 50 you can also wear haubergeons (and other parts of equipement that goes with it) that share the same particularity as AF1 but arent interesting in any case. Those are also shared with PAL and WAR. Exemple :

- Vintage haubergeon

- Mosshorn Scale Mail

 

Beside, not every armors PAL and WAR armors are shared with DRG. In fact, there are a lot of armors that doesn't (crafted or not, think about the Brayflox gear that cannot be wear by DRG, DRG doesn't have any armor in this dungeon).

 

PS : I was use to read AF1 and AF2. People have differents way to name things but I was talking about the first artefact armor you get so it wasn't a mistake. DRG is really far away from being my first class so I know about myth and such .

 

Actually, Dragoon gear prior to 50 is somewhere between tanking classes and monks (no idea how it gets in endgame because I'm a silly non-endgamer). There are quite a few armors that have the "PLD WAR DRG" restriction, but Paladins and Warriors can always get their own unshared gear that has more protection. I think the only times they absolutely share equipment are at the beginning of the game and at level 27, where the most protective non-dungeon armor is scale armor that can be used by lancers but not pugilists or bards.

 

You can drop some DRG stuff with really nice stats long after the lv 27 (first exemple that come in my mind is the Kokoroon's Darkshell Mail you can drop at Cutter Cry).

Beside that, PAL and WAR still share some equipment with DRG until the lv 47.

[Anstarra]

Getting a little off-track =3 Though it is logical to assume that, as earlier gear hints, a measure of tankiness exists in the original core concept of the Dragoon class, and thus we might see in such a design model some of the initial rationalization behind the balancing act of what abilities to give Dragoons in end-game, and especially what they bring to the party.

 

Unfortunately, there's a problem with the 'dps who can off-tank sorta' niche; it's TOO niche. The game designers can't create encounters that would REQUIRE a certain class to complete (in theory, anyway). Maybe creative players sometimes use the minimal tankiness that DRGs have, in end-game. Tanking Titan, once geared out, is case in point.

 

However, such things remain an amusement, and only occasionally an actual useful benefit to a group. The simple fact is that no DPS should ever be tanking, even for a moment. In theory, that means someone has failed their job, and your role shouldn't be dependent on others' failure.

 

But! Part of the fun is tailoring to your specific play group. Maybe people can devise legitimate and excellent strats for end-game using Dragoons as off-tanks at critical moments. Personally I love the idea. I also love being less of a glass cannon than any other DPS. And I love playing DRG as a whole, because, well, I'm good at it, and it's a cool class, and they look cool too.

 

The goal of this thread remains, however, not to find quirky side benefits, nor to cite specific unique circumstances where THAT guy was good because he's a good DRG, but rather to arm oneself with blanket statements permitting DRG players to defend their class choice against elitists who don't believe in them. It's not about "Why would I bring Bob Dragoon instead of Joe Bard", it's about "Why would I bring a Dragoon instead of a Bard, period".

 

In end-game. Because the topic says end-game, and I'm an end-game player, and everything before it is just silly easy and doesn't require group composition or anything.

 

Oh, a thing I've noticed is that because of global cooldown and movement speed, as a DRG, I really don't find myself failing to always be in a position to strike. So THAT ranged advantage is minimal, at best...

[Ilwe'ran]

(Oh crap, everything I wrote was deleted i____i)

 

You're right, let's go back to the main topic. DRG endgame with DRG gear (*sigh*).

It's true that I never saw any party Yeaying about an incoming DRG. I don't see any benefit that this class can add that the MNK cannot.

 

Plus, so far, it's the class I saw taking the more AOE (I PUG a lot, maybe I'm unlucky, but I see sooooo many DRG failing at avoiding AOE.. Or just changing target when there are adds around..) that doesn't give him a good reputation (in PUG and with me at least).

 

But! Part of the fun is tailoring to your specific play group. Maybe people can devise legitimate and excellent strats for end-game using Dragoons as off-tanks at critical moments. Personally I love the idea. I also love being less of a glass cannon than any other DPS. And I love playing DRG as a whole, because, well, I'm good at it, and it's a cool class, and they look cool too.

 

To that I say 1000000000000 YES !!! I bet many people would scream if DRG DPS was lowered a bit in exchange of a more balanced armor to be able to off-tank or manage the "oh crap" situation. In fact I think you would be able to try as a lancer since you can access many buff, flash and provoke. (And now I wanna try )

[Therese]

I'm going to throw in my own wrinkle into this mix.

 

Now, I should sat at the onset that I roll a Monk. And I am (in my personal opinion), a damn good one. The Monk skill set has a lot of utility and potential. While there have been classes that have out damaged me (usually BLM, though sometimes I do run across a DRG or a BRD that gets higher on the aggro meter), the point is that right now I'm at a skill level where not being the top DPS doesn't bother me too much -- the other DPS just happened to be a little bit better and that's that.

 

To the topic, I think that quite a few players take on the casting rolls because of their utility and their survivability. Sure, they get torn through as quickly as a tissue paper in the wash cycle, but the way the game mechanics are set up, if they fail it is entirely the mage's fault. They didn't notice the ability proccing. They didn't run out of the gaol. And nine times out of then when they do that, they die. We are also under the same constraints (and depending on the fight, we're also stepping aside and watching our melee range get swiped from under us), but 1) we actually do have a little bit more survivability than other classes (we can take one aoe to the face and survive -- not that I recommend it), and echoing what has been said 2) our dps is a constant and reliable source of damage. With the way the game is set up, we may not necessarily see the net benefit of our class. Since mobs are intended to take time to kill, it is the combined combination of multiple classes that finally falls the mob. The final result is that the contributions of each individual class (that is dealing damage) is harder to determine. In fact, it is easiest to notice a DRG or a MNK playing badly because it's taking that much longer for the thing to die...

 

Now, here's my wrinkle. I'm a Monk. I am damn good at it. It's my class and I love it. But I also have an appreciation for the other classes, especially if they are melee, and have been giving DRG a shot. Currently I just hit 36 and I am bored. to. tears. I'm not sure if it's this level, or if it's the class itself, but the damage output and the effort I have been putting into it just doesn't seem significant. Worse, because there is no greased lightning effect, I feel like my DRG is plodding at the lowest gear and stuck there. I see things that are coming -- Disembowel looks amazing. And there are a couple more Jumps down the pike. But, and please forgive me from saying so, I can't help but feeling like DRG is a class that is for people who don't want to bother with the mechanics of MNK and get a slightly less potent dps as a compromise.

[Carstan62]

Now, here's my wrinkle. I'm a Monk. I am damn good at it. It's my class and I love it. But I also have an appreciation for the other classes, especially if they are melee, and have been giving DRG a shot. Currently I just hit 36 and I am bored. to. tears. I'm not sure if it's this level, or if it's the class itself, but the damage output and the effort I have been putting into it just doesn't seem significant. Worse, because there is no greased lightning effect, I feel like my DRG is plodding at the lowest gear and stuck there. I see things that are coming -- Disembowel looks amazing. And there are a couple more Jumps down the pike. But, and please forgive me from saying so, I can't help but feeling like DRG is a class that is for people who don't want to bother with the mechanics of MNK and get a slightly less potent dps as a compromise.

I have a friend who plays Monk as his alt (his main is warrior) and he was saying the same thing levelling his lancer for Blood for Blood. IMO, the fun part about dragoon is the rush you get from popping your full cooldown combos. Squeezing in your cooldowns between gcd and then finishing it off the combo with a guaranteed crit full thrust that hits for around 1300 damage is more exciting than anything for me. Granted that rush only lasts around 20 seconds and fighting with all your skills on cooldown is laughable in comparison, but as soon as I tasted that, everything else paled in comparison.

 

On the main topic of this thread, it also just so happens that those crazy burst combos that I love are one of the roles a dragoon can perform extremely well. The only real time it matters whether your dps is average or amazing is during a dps check, and most dps checks are short; making burst damage ideal for dealing with them. Monks may have higher dps during certain fights, but dragoons will always be a reliable source of damage and something for the party to fall back on if necessary thanks to foresight and keen flurry.

 

I don't compare myself to ranged dps and don't think anyone should. The most solid parties will have 3 ranged and 1 melee, and I'm completely fine with that since there are more ranged dps than melee dps. Melee LB is also the most useful by far, with the only comparably good LB being lv3 Healer LB. As for so many ranged only Garuda ex parties, that's only natural since the fight is hard for melee dps and it's safer for a party to count on the ranged dps not getting boned by the mechanics of the fight than it is to count on a melee dps actually being good rather than a derpgoon or monkey.

[Hiro]

As a note, Dragoons are currently the top DPS for End Game at the moment T6+

 

Last I checked, about a week ago from the "World First" Guilds, the DPS hierarchy is:

 

DRG/SMN > BRD >MNK > BLM

 

Which changed from the previous standing four months ago that was:

 

MNK/SMN > BLM > DRG > BRD

 

Breaking down their numbers and ratings, they're all very close, except for BLK at the moment and that is apparently due to non-friendly mechanics.

 

I bring this up as a reminder to people that things don't stay the same, MMO's are constantly changing environments, for one quarter you may be the Flavor of the Month, the next you could be scraping the bottom of the barrel. Final Fantasy XIV has at least done a good job making sure that while there are obvious "Competitive/Hard Core" choices for players who view themselves as a Role versus a Class, players who view themselves as slotted into a specific Class to fill a Role aren't left in the dust.

[OttoVann]

I find it very hard to believe that bards beat out goons and monks consistently on a single target. If ever. The only way a Bard can ever do extremely well anyways is with a goon helping to buff them.

 

Dragoons and Monks are the top two dpsers on bosses / dummies most times. Theres a monk named Momo on Balmung that cruise controles at over 460 dps in SCOB and a friend of mine named Amal who does over 430 dps on average to bosses in SCOB as well.

 

Goons are fine, monks are fine. Summoners dominating as hard as they do is interesting. They might have too much utility for the output they can provide.

[Oscare]

If a bard is out DPSing a monk or a black mage (especially with the new buff in potency given to black mages), then those are just awful players. A bard isn't centered on dealing high damage, they're built on supporting other players to increase their damage output. (Foe Requiem for BLM, Mage Ballad for MP users (other than BLM)) I also say this because my main job is bard, and I honestly cringe if I out DPS anything that isn't a bard (the exception being if I am severely over geared compared to someone else)

 

But that's besides the point.

 

Every job has their use end game. It's unfair to say "this job will always be useful while this job is good for nothing", because that will never be true. If a job was good for nothing, no one would play it. 

 

Now I will say that the current rep that a dragoon carries now-a-days are... bad. But don't let that stop you -- I have seen AMAZING dragoons. I heard a good saying on the actual Realm Reborn forums saying;

"A 'good' dragoon will do 99% of a Monk's DPS 100% of the time. A great dragoon will outrank or be on par with a Monk 101% of the time."

 

This all really depends on your skill as a dragoon -- but then again, everything is based on skill. That's my two cents on this.

[Kage]

I'm not sure if the potency buff will really help a BLM still in movement intensive fights like T6. I was picked up last night and I still hit ~ 240 DPS even with the potency buff.

 

... but I also never saw a Foe's Req even though there were two BLMs in the party >.>;

 

If a BRD is just dealing damage they'll probably do more DPS than a BLM who is say dealing with vines and such too. I'm still not a glass cannon as BLM T_T

[Oscare]

If a bard isn't using Foe with not one but TWO black mages? That's a pretty good indication to boot them, in my opinion.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

If a bard isn't using Foe with not one but TWO black mages? That's a pretty good indication to boot them, in my opinion.

 

The end-game raids change that up a lot. ...A FR wouldn't be as helpful if the BLMs are running around and don't have the time/opportunity to cast. I think that's what Kage's trying to say. ...now in fights where the BLMs can sit down and make things burn/explode, I fully agree. (Unless the WHMs want love too)

[Crisiet]

Dragoons are the reigning champions of thrusting. 

 

We all need a bit of thrusting in our lives.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Each class is better at certain things than others, they each have their niche:

Single target melee - Monk

Single target ranged - Summoner

Aoe melee - Dragoon

Aoe ranged - Black Mage

Support/utility - Bard

 

And, as people have said, if a fight has intense dodging, a Black Mage's numbers will suffer horribly.

[Kellach Woods]

I bring this up as a reminder to people that things don't stay the same, MMO's are constantly changing environments, for one quarter you may be the Flavor of the Month, the next you could be scraping the bottom of the barrel. Final Fantasy XIV has at least done a good job making sure that while there are obvious "Competitive/Hard Core" choices for players who view themselves as a Role versus a Class, players who view themselves as slotted into a specific Class to fill a Role aren't left in the dust.

Also keep in mind that a lot of players just hear "So and so is best class/rotation" and leave it at that without any exploration whatsoever.

 

Also, even if it is actually best class/rotation, there's execution, gear, etc. to take into account before even considering a swap, utility, etc.

 

Generally, if you find you're floundering, it has more to do with upping your own game than the game itself unless you're at the very bleeding edge of end-game.

[Gharen]

This is a topic that deserves to remain dead. Please don't feed the zombies.