Gender roles

[Kage]

I was OOC at the time dealing with things while AFKing in Quicksand as some of my friends came to Aya's defense in the Quicksand when some pirates were being genuine nuisances, such as throwing a glass down and having it break.

 

They were accused ICly of using authority that they weren't allowed to (Sultansworn) and OOCly for whiteknighting. ICly it was not true because no mention was even used of being Sultansworn to say "Please stop being a dick in Quicksand." OOCly, I'm pretty sure it would not have mattered what gender Aya was but just that Aya was a friend.

 

Kage does not care what gender a person is. If he views them as a friend and does not like how they are being treated he will do something about it. Or stand by to support.

[Erik Mynhier]

Titles and history aside, at the end of the day, at his core, Erik is a soldier. And as long as the one next to him can do what they must, he has no issue. That said he is overtly protective of very young (almost children) girls and small children do to the events of his life. So in that he tends to underestimate that small group. An intended character flaw.

[Flickering Ember]

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

 

Not per say.  What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game.  But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.

 

Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".

 

Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter.  These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.

 

Bolded the important part there and most specifically, the part that I am actually responding to.

 

This goes hand and hand with some of the other responses in this thread too. It may seem like a logical and natural choice to simply assume that medieval/fantasy themed works have a "men are hunters, women are nurturers" mindset, however, I believe that this thought process is based solely on our own real life history.

 

Though fantasy often means medieval, that should not be indicative of the game's culture's beliefs. It is entirely possible for a medieval fantasy world to have a culture with social equality much more advanced than our own while still lacking in technology.

[UltraFennec]

Maybe if Eorzea's city-states function as post-scarcity societies somehow. People have to be fairly well assured of their survival somehow for higher-order thinking to be something they give any real thought to. Most medieval societies had very few folk that could belong to such a category, and it can be seen in the kinds of works produced in these eras. If Eorzea really is supposed to be some sort of pseudo-medieval thing (which I doubt), then it would be culturally appropriate for an amount of reliance on 'natural' roles to be present and enforced. 

 

That this doesn't seem to be the case in most of the game's societies tells me that this is less a real medieval society and more one that uses the trappings of medieval and fantasy stories but is really a fairly modern society overall. My guess why? Magic probably makes up a fair amount of the technology gap in crucial places.

[synaesthetic]

*MRA-esque words of stupid*

 

All creative works, but especially science fiction and fantasy, are really a commentary on the social, economic, political and cultural issues of the time in which they were created. Additionally, XIV is not a historical fiction title, so SE has absoluely no obligation to abide by reality by any stretch of the imagination.

 

We're playing magic-slinging cat people and you're concerned that there isn't a large degree of "historically-accurate" sexism? Dafuq are you on about?

 

And lastly, you sound awfully bitter that all the important NPCs aren't all male. Poor widdle baby! Is your pwecious mascuwinity damaged? Boo-fucking-hoo, cry me a goddamned river. "Respect" the lore if you want to or not (I usually facepalm about it because it's pretty C-list writing), but your reasoning strikes me as being really fucking pathetic and butthurt that your fantasy NPC leaders aren't rocking out with their cocks out.

 

(Oh, and clearly you didn't play 1.0; Roes and Highlanders were the male-only races back then, and there was no male miqo'te option either. They added female options for both as well as the male option for both miqo'te subraces.)

[Nebbs]

...

We're playing magic-slinging cat people and you're concerned that there isn't a large degree of "historically-accurate" sexism? Dafuq are you on about?

...

 

Just that, it's fantasy

[Kellach Woods]

All game writing is essentially C-list writing with very few exceptions though.

[synaesthetic]

All game writing is essentially C-list writing with very few exceptions though.

 

Sturgeon's Law in practice.

[allgivenover]

All writing is essentially C-list writing with very few exceptions though.

 

Fixed that for you.

[allgivenover]

Also does anyone else find it hilarious that magic, cat-people, dragons, fairies, and all sorts of supernatural nonsense is somehow more acceptable and "realistic" than a world where women are not automatically second class citizens?

 

I mean, it'd make sense if we were playing an MMO heavily based off of 15th century Europe or something, but we're not even close to anything remotely historical.

 

XIV doesn't seem to portray women with significantly less rights at all, and that's alright. Just because the setting doesn't have cars and other modern conveniences doesn't mean that women have to be under the boot of the patriarchy.

[FreelanceWizard]

*puts on Magic Admin Hat, blows whistle, throws the flag*

 

I have handed out warnings on this thread for posts that are extremely and unnecessarily combative. The next step if it continues will be temporary bans, as my patience is beginning to wear thin for this sort of thing. Please do not make me do that.

 

This is a contentious topic, but up until today, the conversation was polite and respectful. If you can't keep a cool head in this thread, I ask that you bow out of it. Thanks.

[Aya]

This isn't something I can really imagine spending much time thinking about.  The world certainly doesn't have in depth lore, or a wealth of background culture to draw from, and even if they did people would draw their own conclusions or project what they wanted into the world.

 

As in everything else there is no "right" way to RP gender expectations, all there are are the ways that each individual character handles it.  Just as in the real word, you're going to encounter all types.  Consider it as an opportunity for RP variety, or perhaps, like Aya does, an opportunity to be underestimated.

[allgivenover]

The background and cultural lore might not be as thorough as we'd like but we can still draw conclusions from the way the world is actively depicted, and that depiction points to there being little reason to believe that women suffer as second class citizens in Eorzea.

[Kellach Woods]

It's kind of weird how the game handles it.

 

On one side, we have two out of the three military leaders of Eorzea being women, with the one who isn't having to answer to one hierarchically. All are shown to be competent at their jobs and doing the best they can with a bad situation. We also have several women portrayed in what would be, in our society, typically "male" jobs and SOMEWHAT vice-versa (Jandelaine, although stylists being male and effeminate is definitely not a subversion by any means, same with the dance instructor).

 

On the other side, there's the unmentionable implications that seem to only occur to women across the main scenario as though it could never happen to men, or if it happened to men the rating would go up so it cannot happen to them for out of story considerations. And the fact that all dancers in Ul'dah/Costa del Sol are women.

 

I guess we can extrapolate that bad stuff still happens to women exclusively but people make less of a fuss about women in various roles.

[LiadansWhisper]

It's kind of weird how the game handles it.

 

On one side, we have two out of the three military leaders of Eorzea being women, with the one who isn't having to answer to one hierarchically. All are shown to be competent at their jobs and doing the best they can with a bad situation. We also have several women portrayed in what would be, in our society, typically "male" jobs and SOMEWHAT vice-versa (Jandelaine, although stylists being male and effeminate is definitely not a subversion by any means, same with the dance instructor).

 

On the other side, there's the unmentionable implications that seem to only occur to women across the main scenario as though it could never happen to men, or if it happened to men the rating would go up so it cannot happen to them for out of story considerations. And the fact that all dancers in Ul'dah/Costa del Sol are women.

 

I guess we can extrapolate that bad stuff still happens to women exclusively but people make less of a fuss about women in various roles.

 

 

You may or may not have noticed that Square is somewhat (or even very) inconsistent with how things in the game are portrayed vs. how they tell us they are.  A great example of this is their statements about Sunseeker Miqo'te.  From what they tell us in threads, Sunseeker tribes are primarily run by females - the Nunhs are pretty much never the heads of the tribe.  But, the only Sunseeker tribe we see in-game is being run by a Nunh.   ¯\(°_o)/¯ 

[FreelanceWizard]

From what they tell us in threads, Sunseeker tribes are primarily run by females - the Nunhs are pretty much never the heads of the tribe.  But, the only Sunseeker tribe we see in-game is being run by a Nunh.

 

Minor correction: they're primarily run by people who are not nunh. "Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders." (dev post) I would personally argue that, given the rest of the post, Seeker territory leadership is largely made up of the tia (otherwise, why would they explicitly state that Keepers are "highly matriarchal"), but there's been no explicit statement one way or the other of which I'm aware.

 

EDIT: That said, it's a total grey area for the development of backgrounds, so either way you do it, you'll be within the boundaries of lore.

[LiadansWhisper]

From what they tell us in threads, Sunseeker tribes are primarily run by females - the Nunhs are pretty much never the heads of the tribe.  But, the only Sunseeker tribe we see in-game is being run by a Nunh.

 

Minor correction: they're primarily run by people who are not nunh. "Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders." (dev post) I would personally argue that, given the rest of the post, Seeker territory leadership is largely made up of the tia (otherwise, why would they explicitly state that Keepers are "highly matriarchal"), but there's been no explicit statement one way or the other of which I'm aware.

 

EDIT: That said, it's a total grey area for the development of backgrounds, so either way you do it, you'll be within the boundaries of lore.

 

Oh man.  I like my theory better, darnit.  >.>

[Kellach Woods]

Yeah those are just like, the very obvious inconsistencies that I found just playing the game.

[Naunet]

Oh man.  I like my theory better, darnit.  >.>

 

It's a better theory and there's no evidence saying women don't lead Seeker tribes. Be at peace!

[Roswyn]

When I was leveling my first character I was rather taken aback at the amount of rape and implied rape there is in this game in quests. What shocked me even more was when I brought it up to my FC no one else seemed to remember it. :dodgy: Think about that one.

 

I really disliked the way Squeenix used rape to drive it quests in FF14. (Ala Migo and Ishgard and two places that come to mind that had these quests.) It massively destroyed my immersion. Here I am, playing this awesome strong female character. She's this warrior of light collecting these crystals and defeating the Garleans and....oh. Rape. Great. Always against females too.

 

I get the feeling that Squeenix wants to have the convenience of placing woman in strong roles while at the same time subtly reminding us that they are physically weaker. Or the "majority" are weaker. MMO's like WoW head this off at the pass by blatantly saying in the game manual that there is no difference between males and females stat-wise in Azeroth. As far as I am aware, FF14 makes no such distinction.

[Naunet]

Using rape to generate strong feelings towards a particular plot point is a common (and usually very lazy) technique, unfortunately. It is possible to handle rape in a story well, but you don't do that by treating it as a simple plot device to characterize one side as the bad guys.

[LiadansWhisper]

When I was leveling my first character I was rather taken aback at the amount of rape and implied rape there is in this game in quests. What shocked me even more was when I brought it up to my FC no one else seemed to remember it. :dodgy: Think about that one.

 

They may not have remembered it because the NPCs in question never came right out and stated, point blank, what happened.  Like, what I remember about the Ala Mhigo quests is that it was implied that the woman in question (a girl, really, implied to be the equivalent of a teenager, as well) used very veiled language and only directly said that she was harassed.  The strong implication was that she'd been touched against her will (i.e. groped or otherwise manhandled), but I actually had to think about the quest for a bit to realize that most likely she'd actually been raped - but that was based on the information I got about the people who hurt her and the reactions of the other Ala Mhigans when she explained what happened, not what she actually said.  And the word "rape" is never used.  

 

I can't even remember the Ishgardian incident, so I may have missed it or misinterpreted it (or blocked the entire zone out of my mind because it was so rage-inducing in general  ).

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that some people are just gonna miss the cues (whether because they genuinely are dense, are unused to looking for a hidden meaning, or decide they don't want it to be rape because that is too painful to think about), because nothing is blatantly said.  That doesn't make them bad people.

[Kellach Woods]

They may not have remembered it because the NPCs in question never came right out and stated, point blank, what happened.  Like, what I remember about the Ala Mhigo quests is that it was implied that the woman in question (a girl, really, implied to be the equivalent of a teenager, as well) used very veiled language and only directly said that she was harassed.  The strong implication was that she'd been touched against her will (i.e. groped or otherwise manhandled), but I actually had to think about the quest for a bit to realize that most likely she'd actually been raped - but that was based on the information I got about the people who hurt her and the reactions of the other Ala Mhigans when she explained what happened, not what she actually said.  And the word "rape" is never used.  

 

I can't even remember the Ishgardian incident, so I may have missed it or misinterpreted it (or blocked the entire zone out of my mind because it was so rage-inducing in general  ).

If they mention it, it bumps up the rating to Mature due to the game having sexual content rather than suggestive content. Wouldn't even surprise me if the skirting around the issue is outright because of that consideration rather than anything else, even if it's really, really bad how often that trope is used in FFXIV.

 

Count me in the "Fuck Ishgarde" camp. Originally I wanted to make a Duskwight that really didn't like the Gridanians but still tolerated them but because of Ul'dah's city storyline and Ishgarde I pretty much went "Welp he hates everyone he'd sell the whole continent out to Garland if it wasn't for the fact that he hates them even more than the rest of these assholes."

 

Honestly, when the deal with the Ixal happened and the only non-Ishgardian at that camp wanted to help them I wanted to say fuck them. Let the Ixal wipe that nation off the face of the planet there is nothing good that can come out of Ishgarde ever.

 

I get the feeling that Squeenix wants to have the convenience of placing woman in strong roles while at the same time subtly reminding us that they are physically weaker. Or the "majority" are weaker. MMO's like WoW head this off at the pass by blatantly saying in the game manual that there is no difference between males and females stat-wise in Azeroth. As far as I am aware, FF14 makes no such distinction.

If they do it (I remember them doing it kind of but I'm not too sure myself anymore), it's very well hidden and more as a way of saying "Your gender doesn't matter for stats so you don't need to change gender for minmaxing" rather than make a statement about the game world.

 

Which is really bad - they could have done better but I'm not expecting Square-Enix to do anything remotely good on that issue at this point.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

Count me in the "Fuck Ishgarde" camp. Originally I wanted to make a Duskwight that really didn't like the Gridanians but still tolerated them but because of Ul'dah's city storyline and Ishgarde I pretty much went "Welp he hates everyone he'd sell the whole continent out to Garland if it wasn't for the fact that he hates them even more than the rest of these assholes."

 

Honestly, when the deal with the Ixal happened and the only non-Ishgardian at that camp wanted to help them I wanted to say fuck them. Let the Ixal wipe that nation off the face of the planet there is nothing good that can come out of Ishgarde ever.

 

 

 

Oh my god, YES.  I spent the entire zone thinking, "I really want to throw all of these NPCs off a cliff."  And by the time the Ixal part came along, I, too, was willing to let Garuru eat the entire zone, because they were such asshats!

[TheLastCandle]

*reads Liadan and Kellach's posts regarding Ishgard* Pff. Haters.